Employment Relations (Flexible Working) Bill

Greg Smith Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 24th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)]

For the second debate running, it is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon).

Over recent years, not just since the pandemic, flexible working has revolutionised the way people go about their employment, their business and their day-to-day lives. That is visible in my constituency on the daily commute: getting on the train at Haddenham & Thame Parkway on a Monday or a Friday, the car park is noticeably emptier. When people get to Marylebone and try to get on the tube, they can get on the platform at the first time of asking; if they try it from Tuesday to Thursday, they have to wait four or five tube trains before they can get on one to get wherever they are going. On the trains, on the underground and on public transport generally, the sheer volume of people who have gone on to a more varied working week is clearly visible—the days of nine-to-five are well and truly gone, and people are working in much more flexible patterns.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) on her Bill. As others have said, it seeks to provide greater balance by giving everybody—no matter who they are, no matter how senior or junior they are, and no matter what their station within their particular business—the ability to better engage to get a working pattern that is right for them and for their business and that ensures we have a buoyant, growing economy. The growth of technology such as Zoom, Teams and all the other video conferencing software has, to a great extent, enabled the ability to work remotely that others have spoken about—to do three days in the office and two days at home, or whatever it might be.

However, I have considerable sympathy with the view expressed by my hon. Friends that we cannot just take that technology to be a replacement for the office. We cannot say that Zoom and Teams mean that everybody should always be able to work from home and never go into the office, because that brings many disadvantages—not least, from my perspective, for people starting out on their careers and trying to get up the ladder in their places of business. I would argue that it has always been the case that graduate entrants, apprentices or people starting off in whatever business or profession they have chosen do not learn the most from textbooks, from university or from whatever degree they have done, or by some process of osmosis; they learn from the people further up the ladder. They learn from going to the next rank up and saying, “I’m struggling with this particular bit of work, I’m struggling to get my head around this.” They learn by asking for the advice of more senior colleagues.

In encouraging flexible working, although I am a huge fan of it, we absolutely must not throw the baby out with the bathwater by going too far. I say that without any technical interest to declare, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I do have three small children at home. Without flexible working—particularly for my wife, because we all accept that being an MP is not particularly flexible and that we absolutely have to be here at certain hours—our childcare arrangements would be an absolute nightmare, and that would certainly be to the detriment of my children.

I will focus most in my comments on the issue of childcare. Enormous steps forward have been made, not least by Governments since 2010, in supporting families with childcare—the 30 free hours that the coalition Government brought in is one example. However, I know from my own constituency that lots of parents struggle with childcare and with being able to pursue the careers that they want. They find that difficult within the confines of many working practices and set-ups around the country. Everything we can do to ensure that working parents are able to pursue their career of choice and fulfil their professional dreams, while not being punished for having, loving and wanting to bring up children, is to the good.

When the Minister responds to the debate, I urge him to look beyond the Bill, which is a strong starting point, and to ensure that we continue to lock in family-friendly practices, where necessary through regulation—although I am generally sceptical about whether we have to regulate for everything to get the best result—so that we are as family-friendly as possible.

Another point that came up earlier highlights or double-underlines the need for there to be a balance—a balance that, as I said a few moments ago, the Bill does support. I am thinking of the impact that flexible working can have on localities and geographies: towns, villages and cities where business plays a big part. Think of the impact on hospitality during the rail strikes in December, when no one was able to come into London—on the cafés, pubs and bars, and all the businesses set up over the years to support workers who buy their cups of coffee and get their lunches on their way into work and socialise with colleagues or friends after it. We cannot allow too much remote working to undermine our towns and cities and the businesses set up within them.

To conclude, I would like to briefly commend the comments made earlier, not least by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (James Daly). We can use flexible working not just to support those with childcare needs or the other things I spoke about earlier, but to ensure that there is a clear path into employment for those who, as my hon. Friend mentioned, suffer with autism or other disabilities—to break down those barriers and ensure that there is a place of work, a career and a professional path for absolutely everybody in our society. That might mean slightly different hours or some days at home and some in the office, but we have to be certain that the Government, the state and this Parliament have made things as accessible and open as possible for everybody with a particular need, in a way that the old system—if I may call it that—did not allow. The Bill goes a very long way towards redressing the balance and opening up much greater flexibility.

[Robin Millar]

It strikes me that the argument my hon. Friend is making is that such flexibility must be inherent in our response to the changes we are seeing in society. There are changes in personal circumstances, such as the points he made about caring for his children—I was glad to hear that he would not throw them out with the bathwater. There are changes in the marketplace and, indeed, in the travel patterns of consumers—I think of my constituency of Aberconwy, which has a tourism-based economy that relies heavily on seasonal working. Is that the thrust of his argument?

[Greg Smith]

As ever, my hon. Friend puts it far more eloquently than I could. He has hit the nail on the head, certainly on the seasonal aspect of some businesses and the changing times that we have all seen, not just through the pandemic but in recent years. If we want to have the most dynamic, growing, buoyant economy, we have to ensure that the paths into employment and by which people hold down employment—seasonal, permanent or whatever it might be—are allowed for in regulation. It is important that we do not dictate too firmly to businesses how they must go about their practices, but we must ensure that they are fair and open with their employees, so that nobody feels left behind, unable to enter the workplace or held back in some other way.

Indeed, that principle goes beyond business and into the public sector. To back up an argument I made a few moments ago, I am a member of the Transport Committee, which has looked at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency and the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency. All right hon. and hon. Members probably grappled with delays in the issuance of driving licences and heard nightmare stories from their constituents. One of the causes of those delays, stemming from the pandemic, was the inability of DVLA staff to access the weight of documents that people had posted to Swansea and to process them from home.

[James Daly]

This is a multidimensional issue, but my hon. Friend has put his finger on a real problem that we have to address and to be honest about. Productivity is the blight of the British economy and, as my hon. Friend rightly says, we must do everything we can as a Parliament to ensure that people can access careers. If somebody on flexible working in the private sector is not working to a high standard, that business will go bankrupt. What is my hon. Friend’s view on productivity in the state sector and these working requirements?

[Greg Smith]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. As we look at this legislation, it is important that we do not just think about it through the lens of the private sector, but talk about public sector jobs as well.

I can only highlight the point I made a few moments ago about the challenges involved in getting driving licences issued in the time that our constituents wanted them to be issued. The problem in that example was an inability to do the job from home. Not only had the original documents been posted as good old-fashioned snail mail to Swansea; even when staff in the office scanned those documents and transferred them to a digital format, so that other staff could process them and judge whether a driving licence could be issued, the files were so enormous that they were not necessarily able to get through to the person working from home. We have to ensure that productivity is included in this debate. As others have said, certain jobs simply cannot be done from home. The technology is not necessarily there for absolutely everyone to receive hundreds of megabytes and gigabytes of data in order to do their job, so I very much agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North.

To conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker—

[Dean Russell]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Greg Smith]

I give way to my hon. Friend from just down the A41.

[Dean Russell]

As someone who sometimes gets stuck on the motorways and gets delayed, it is important to note that the Bill is not just about working from home; it is about time as well. Sometimes, getting into work an extra half-hour or hour later and then working an extra hour at the end of the day can make an immense difference, especially to people who need to take their kids to school or who have caring needs. It is important to frame the debate so that we are clear on that. Does my hon. Friend agree?

[Greg Smith]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. This is the point that I was attempting to make earlier about childcare—that it is not about working from home or working from the office, but about timings and the ability to drop the kids at school at 9 am and not be penalised for going into the office at, for instance, 9.30 or 10 am. Similarly, many parents need to pick up their children from school at 3, 3.15 or 3.30. Employees, whether in the private or the public sector, need the ability, indeed the right, to negotiate with their employers something that works for them when it comes to picking the kids up from school and making sure they are looked after before and after school. Many schools offer some wonderful after-school clubs, but it is not possible for everyone to attend a breakfast club or an after-school club every day, so those timings are very important.

To actually conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker—[Laughter]—I once again congratulate the hon. Member for Bolton South East on taking her Bill to its Third Reading with cross-party support, and I look forward to its gaining Royal Assent very soon.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

I thank the shadow Minister for her very positive comments at the end of her remarks. I shall pick up one or two of the other points, if I can, as I go through my remarks.

First, let me thank the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) for all her hard work and engagement in bringing forward this important legislation at this time. It has been a pleasure to work with her. It is always a pleasure and an honour to introduce a private Member’s Bill. I have had that opportunity twice—both were successful—in my career as a Back Bencher. I know that she will feel a great deal of pride at today’s events.

The Government have been very pleased to support the Employment Relations (Flexible Working) Bill through its various stages, and, of course, that will continue today. It has been heartening to observe the support for the Bill across the House, and I was pleased to hear that reflected in this debate.

The ability to vary the time, hours and place of work is an important element of the flexible labour market in Great Britain. Having access to flexible working arrangements enables employees to participate in the labour market in a way that suits their circumstances. Indeed, it brings people back into the workplace. Let me illustrate that point. There are more than 8 million people working part-time in the UK. For many of those people, such flexibility is a need rather than a choice.

The shadow Minister raised the fact that we want to attract more women back into the workplace, and I absolutely support that aim. I reiterate that this is one of six private Members’ Bills that the Government are supporting and those include some very important other measures, such as carer’s leave, neonatal leave, and pregnancy and return to work protections, to make sure that women feel more comfortable and protected in the workplace.

Crucially, for businesses, this Bill supports a diverse range of work arrangements, which can be key in retaining people and keeping them productive. We know that one key challenge for business is finding and retaining the right people. Crucially, the Bill provides a right to request, not a right to insist. I, too, was a little confused about Labour’s position, because the Bill provides a right to request, which is a right to be granted flexible working subject to reasonable measures; there are eight grounds on which a request could be refused. Crucially—I was pleased that my Conservative colleagues were keen to point this out—this is not a right to impose flexible working on businesses, as that would be the wrong thing to do. We know that there are many burdens on businesses at the moment, not least some of the challenges associated with the cost of living, and adding further burdens would be a mistake if they would be an imposition.

The post-implementation review of the Flexible Working Regulations 2014 found that employers have seen improvements in staff motivation and employee relations because of flexible working. That point was made clearly by the hon. Member for Bolton South East. Reduced absenteeism and lower staff turnover was also found. Research indicates that flexible working can unlock opportunities for growth and, indeed, access to the station platform, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith). It suggests that in the absence of suitable working hours or locations, groups of people are not employed, have retired early or are working below their potential. Some 500,000 people of working age have left the workplace since the start of the pandemic and it is crucial that we bring them back into the workplace, as was mentioned by the hon. Member for Bolton South East and by my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Gareth Bacon). He rightly pointed out that the costs and burdens of these measures are relatively limited, at about £2 million. It is always right to look at the cost to business of these kinds of measures.

These measures are supported by a recent Office for National Statistics study, which showed flexible working hours to be the most important factor in determining whether older workers who have left the workplace since the start of the pandemic will return to the labour market. Again, that point was made succinctly by my hon. Friends the Members for Aylesbury (Rob Butler) and for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Aaron Bell), who talked about a lady of 82 returning to the workplace, which was very impressive. Sadly, my mum passed away when she was 84, but she was proud to work every single day until then. He also talked about the stores of wisdom of people who have left the workplace but whom we are trying to attract back into it, and I could not agree more with that position.

From running my own business, I know that accommodating a particular working pattern can often be the difference between losing and retaining a valued member of staff. The right to request flexible working is very good enabling legislation. It acknowledges that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to working arrangements, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon). It is designed to help employees and employers find arrangements that work for both sides, and it is functioning well. The post-implementation review of the legislation found that in 83% of workplaces where a request is made the request is granted, with only 9% of workplaces reporting turning down such a request. That is why our 2019 manifesto committed to consult on ways to improve access to flexible working. That consultation was primarily focused on adjustments to the right to request flexible working. We published our response to that consultation at the end of last year and I am pleased that the measures in this Bill reflect what we set out in our response; most importantly, this becomes a day one right. I wish to pick up on the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Dean Russell), who did such fine work in Committee and as my predecessor in this role. That day one right did not come as a result of the amendment, which was withdrawn in Committee; we made the commitment, in consultation, that that was our intention and it was what we confirmed later that week.

These important changes will facilitate better access to all forms of flexible working, whether it relates to when, where or how people work. My hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham and the shadow Minister both mentioned the importance of childcare to getting people back to work. One note of caution, of course, is that childcare is very expensive for the taxpayer, around £3.5 billion a year. We would all like to expand childcare provision, but all hon. Members, certainly on my side of the political divide, are keen to ensure that taxpayers’ money is spent wisely.

[Greg Smith]

I reassure the Minister that my point was less about needing more taxpayer subsidy than about ensuring that all employers are aware of the needs of working parents so that their businesses and enterprises are able to gain their skillset, for their own good and that of the wider economy, by allowing them to work flexible hours.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and I agree entirely. As an employer, we were very keen to get people back to the workplace who had gone off on maternity leave, and we would be as flexible as possible in facilitating that. I think all good employers do, as indicated by the fact that 83% of employers agree to requests for flexible working.

The consultation requirements will mean that employers and employees are encouraged to have a broad conversation about what flexible working arrangements may be workable. This will avoid the scenario in which an employer rejects a specific request out of hand, as my hon. Friend the Member for Watford explained very well.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (James Daly) asked what “consultation” means, which is a good question. ACAS will update its code of practice to make sure that employers are clear on the requirements. The current code of practice requires only a discussion, which could be over the telephone or face to face, and the update will explain what it means in practice.

Allowing employees to make two statutory requests in 12 months will mean that legislation is better able to respond to changing needs and requirements; reducing the timeframe within which employers must respond to requests will speed up the whole process; and removing the requirement for an employee to set out the impact of their requested change will level the playing field and remove red tape from the process.

I thank my predecessors, my hon. Friends the Members for Watford, for Loughborough (Jane Hunt) and for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully). I also thank the civil servants in my private office who do such a fine job and who have done so much legislation in recent weeks and months with such great care and expertise: Matthew Wootton, Tony Mulcahy, Roxana Bakharia, Jayne McCann, Ana Pollard, Bryan Halka, Dan Spillman and Cora Sweet.

Supporting this Bill is in line with the Government’s ongoing commitment to building a strong and flexible labour market that supports participation and economic growth. Our 2019 Conservative manifesto committed to encouraging flexible working, and this Bill is a positive development for individuals and businesses alike. I wholly support the passage of this Bill as it moves to the other place, and I commend it to the House.