Grenfell Tower Inquiry

Debate between Grahame Morris and Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Wednesday 30th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

rose—

[Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

rose—

[The Prime Minister]

If I may, I will continue, as it will be important for the House to hear the whole context in which these criticisms and points are being made.

The so-called “stay put” policy is the bedrock on which all plans for fighting fires in tall residential buildings are based. Building regulations are supposed to mean that fires cannot spread beyond individual flats, because they are compartmented. When that is the case, it is indeed safest for most residents to stay in their homes until the fire is extinguished, but at Grenfell that was not the case. The fire spread widely and rapidly, up, down and across the tower.

Firearms Controls

Debate between Grahame Morris and Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Tuesday 3rd September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

I am grateful to have caught your eye, Mr Sheridan, during this important debate on firearms control. I congratulate the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) on securing it and for the moderate and reasonable way in which he portrayed his case, particularly the dreadful incident involving Mr Atherton and some of his constituents, for whom we all have great sympathy, particularly those who legally hold firearms certificates, and the shooting fraternity. Whenever such an incident takes place, it tarnishes the shooting community and those who legally hold firearms certificates. I welcome the Minister because he knows a great deal about the subject and always handles it sympathetically and pragmatically.

We all want a robust firearms-licensing system to prevent cases such as those the hon. Gentleman has talked about, but I emphasise that such incidents involve a mere 0.01% of firearms licence holders in this country. Such cases are dreadful and dramatic, but involve a very small number of those who legally hold firearms and shotgun certificates. In this debate and in Parliament we are discussing giving the police more time to deal with those cases and to ensure that such people never hold a firearms certificate. I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman on that, but I do not agree that the way of dealing with the matter is through further legislation. We must ensure that existing legislation works properly.

First, I will outline how the Home Office’s new guidelines will protect people suffering from domestic violence. So much of the debate today has been about that. Secondly, I will highlight the importance of the guidelines being implemented properly. Finally, I will specifically mention the Atherton case, which occurred in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency.

The new guidance published by the Home Office recently includes specific provisions to ensure that individuals with a history of domestic violence are not entrusted with a firearms licence. As part of that guidance, police offers are told that they should speak to the family of any applicant with a known history of domestic violence and that speaking to an applicant’s spouse or partner might be considered essential. Such discussion would be in complete confidence and a partner would not be asked to approve or not approve a firearms licence. That guidance will ensure that the correct consultation takes place when anyone with a history of domestic violence applies for a firearms licence.

While the hon. Gentleman was speaking, I was thinking that when I first became a Member of Parliament 21 years ago the law did not require police officers to investigate domestic violence at all unless bodily harm was involved. That shows how far we have come on domestic violence and I suspect that the law and practice relating to firearms certificates and domestic violence have not caught up with the general trend in society.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Perhaps I was a little unclear about the specific case, but domestic violence was cited by the officers who sought to revoke Atherton’s shotgun licence. A senior officer looked at case law and, because a firearm was not used in the four earlier recorded incidents of domestic violence, the judgment was made that the courts would not support revocation of his firearms licence. The guidance is not strong enough in such circumstances and we must ensure that the courts will back up the police.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. I know a little about the subject, and I think it is often easier for police officers to grant or re-grant a firearms or shotgun certificate than risk the possibility of judicial review. In fact, they should be more robust and say no if they believe that someone should not be granted a shotgun or firearms certificate and should, if necessary, defend the case robustly at judicial review. In my experience that does not always happen and it is when it does not happen that there are problems such as the Atherton case. There was clear evidence, which I will come to later, that the police should have decided to revoke the certificate. In any case, I think the new guidance that was published at the end of 2012 will help. I have no doubt the Minister will mention it in his summing up and I look forward to hearing what he says.

--- Later in debate ---

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

That is precisely why I do not want to see any further legislation in this area. I want to see it consolidated into one completely clear piece of legislation, so that for the 43 police forces—if we have to have 43, rather than one national licensing authority—it will be easier for their firearms licensing officers to interpret exactly who should have a certificate and who should not. I repeat that it is the 0.01% that we need to be concentrating on to see whether they should have a certificate. Those are the people who wreak such havoc, causing damage and loss of life.

The Minister has previously highlighted that firearms control in the UK is already among the toughest in the world, and he is right. However, where there are gaps, we need to ensure that that they are tightened up, but further legislation is not the way to go about it. After all, the majority of gun crimes are carried out with illegally held firearms. If the guidelines are applied consistently across all 43 police force constabularies, they will succeed.

That brings to me to my third and final points. The actions of Michael Atherton, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Easington, were appalling under any circumstances, and no one wants to see them repeated. He should never have been given a firearms licence, given his history. Indeed, in September 2008, following an incident where he threatened to commit suicide, his guns were taken away from him. However, they were returned to him later. I heard what the hon. Gentleman said about the possibility of judicial review in the courts, but if the police reckon that they had the grounds to take them away from him in the first place, surely they had the grounds to ensure that he did not get them back again, unless there was compelling evidence that something had changed. As far as I am aware from the case’s circumstances, nothing had changed. It was a catastrophic error on the part of the Durham constabulary, as his licence should have been permanently revoked, as it almost certainly would have been in similar circumstances under a different police. Had the guidelines been followed by the Durham constabulary and Atherton’s licence revoked, we would not have seen the tragic events in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency.

The case highlights the importance of police forces using published guidance, because that clearly was not used in the Atherton case. That was highlighted during the inquest, which the hon. Gentleman referred to, following the tragedy, where officers dealing with Atherton’s licence claimed never to have seen the Home Office or ACPO guidance. Those guidelines had been published 10 years previously, so there is little excuse for a firearms licensing officer to be unaware of them. It is obvious that if a police force does not use the guidance given to it, these tragedies will occur.

[Grahame M. Morris]

rose—

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I will happily accept the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, but before he speaks, I was about to make a comment that may be the subject of his intervention. This issue concerns the training of police firearms licensing officers. Given that there are only 43 constabularies, and given that most constabularies only employ one or two firearms licensing officers—so we are dealing with between 40 and 80 officers, because some forces amalgamate the function among themselves—it should not be too difficult to ensure that they all receive better training. I happily give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[Grahame M. Morris]

The hon. Gentleman has anticipated my intervention and answered my point. What he said would be completely sensible, and I find it difficult that the Home Office and Ministers say that it is not practicable. It clearly is, and it is in the interests of public safety to do it.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

The hon. Gentleman and I agree on a great deal of things surrounding the whole issue—except, perhaps, on the need for additional legislation.

It is obvious that if police forces do not use the guidance given to them, these tragedies will continue to occur. In similar cases, other police forces have used the guidelines to revoke the licences of individuals who have displayed patterns of inappropriate behaviour. It is that failure that needs to change to ensure that people like Atherton are never given access to firearms. Increasing the amount of legislation around firearms will not improve public safety any more than implementing the current guidelines.

Let me return to where I started. The Atherton case was a dreadful tragedy and I praise the hon. Gentleman’s constituent, Bobby Turnbull, for his campaign. It is right to ensure that effective measures are in place to prevent firearms from landing in the wrong hands. I note, however, that there are 146,000-odd firearms certificates in England and Wales, up to the end of March 2013. That was up 3.2% on the year before, slightly refuting the comments of the hon. Gentleman’s neighbour, the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), about the huge proliferation of firearms. There are 570,726 shotgun certificates in existence. That is up 1.4% compared with the year before. This is where the 0.01% of serious incidents comes from; there are a very large number of firearms and shotgun certificates in existence and an incredibly low number of significant incidents. Having said that, one incident is too many, and that is what the debate is all about today.

I strongly believe that further legislation is not the best way of achieving our aims. If new Home Office guidelines are listened to and implemented by police forces across the country, we should never again see the tragedy that took place in County Durham. The incident was not a failure of the law or of the guidelines; it was a failure to implement them consistently across the country.