Autumn Budget as it Relates to Wales

Debate between Glyn Davies and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 7th February 2018 General Committees

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Diolch, Mr Hanson, am roi’r cyfle i mi gyfrannu i’r ddadl hanesyddol hon drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Dyma’r tro cyntaf i ni ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg yma yn San Steffan—nid yw hyn wedi digwydd o’r blaen—a dyna pam mae’n ddadl hanesyddol.

Yn siarad yn bersonnol, mae’n arwyddocaol fy mod i’n gallu cyfrannu yn Gymraeg. Pan ges i fy ethol i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ym Mae Caerdydd yn 1999, doeddwn i ddim yn gallu siarad gair o Gymraeg. Ers hynny, rydw i wedi gwnuud fy ngorau i ddysgu’r iaith—iaith y nefoedd. Roedd bob un o’m hynafiaid yn siarad Cymraeg fel iaith gyntaf. Roedd fy rhieni yn siarad Cymraeg fel iaith gyntaf, ond wedi iddynt briodi symudasant i ran o Sir Drefaldwyn lle doedd neb yn siarad Cymraeg. Yn fwy arwyddocaol, roedd pobl yn gweld yr iaith fel iaith o fethiant—doedd neb ar y pryd eisiau siarad Cymraeg. Mae pethau wedi newid heddiw, ond mae lot o pobl wedi anghofio beth oedd y sefyllfa amser maith yn ôl.

Ni chlywais fy nhad na’m mam yn siarad Cymraeg o gwbl, felly ni allai fy mhump chwaer na fi siarad gair o Gymraeg. Nid oeddwn i’n medru gwneud tan i mi ddod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad. Ar ôl cael fy ethol i’r Cynulliad, lle mae llawer o Gymraeg yn cael ei siarad, gan gynnwys yn y Siambr, penderfynais fy mod i am ddysgu’r iaith. Gallwch weld felly, Mr Hanson, pam mae’r ddadl hanesyddol hon mor bwysig i fi yn bersonnol, yn ogystal â bod yn hanesoddol o ran San Steffan.

Mae’r ddadl Uwch Bwyllgor Cymreig yma yn rhoi’r cyfle i ni ystyried y Gyllideb a beth mae’n olygu i Gymru. Yn fy mharn i—rwy’n gwybod na fydd pawb yn cytuno â hyn—mae wedi bod yn newyddion da iawn i Gymru. Cynuddodd y Gyllideb yr arian ar gael i Lywodraeth Cymru wario ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Cynuddodd y grym gwario gan £1.2 biliwn bob blwyddyn, sy’n arwyddocaol iawn. Roedd grym gwario wedi codi £1.2 biliwn bob blwyddyn, ac mae hynny’n arwyddocaol. Pan oeddwn yn Aelod yn y Cynulliad, roedd llawer o drafod am y fformiwla Barnett a’r Barnett floor hefyd. Galw am fwy o arian i Gymru, mwy o rym gwario.

Ar y pryd, roedd pobl yn gweld yr Athro Gerry Holtham fel arbenigwr a bob tro roeddem yn siarad am y Gyllideb yn y Cynulliad, roedd people yn dyfynnu’r Athro Holtham. Nawr, ar ôl cytuno fframwaith cyllid gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, mae’r Athro Holtham wedi disgrifio’r sefyllfa fel a very fair settlement. Mae pethau wedi symud ymlaen lot. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd wedi croesawu’r fframwaith cyllid. Maen nhw’n dweud nawr am long-term fair funding i Gymru. Mae hwn wedi digwydd o dan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol. Rwyf yn falch iawn i glywed pethau fel hyn.

Pwynt arall sydd yn bwysig i mi: yn y Gyllideb roedd y Canghellor yn sôn am gryfhau’r economi ymhob rhan o Gymru. Siaradodd am y Cardiff city deal, y Swansea city deal, am y north Wales growth deal, ac hefyd, am y tro cyntaf, siaradodd am mid Wales growth deal. Mae hyn yn bwysig dros ben; yn hynod o bwysig i mi. Mae’n rhy gynnar i wybod yn union beth mae mid Wales growth deal yn golygu. Mae’n bwysig iawn bod pobl leol yn y canolbarth yn rhoi syniadau. Dyma pam rwyf yn siarad gyda phobl yn sir Faldwyn a thu allan i sir Faldwyn hefyd, yn y canolbarth, a phob corff yn y lle, i gynnig syniadau.

Rwyf wedi bod yn siarad gyda’r Aelod dros Geredigion. Gobeithio byddwn yn gallu cymryd mantais o ymchwil amaethyddol ac amgylcheddol ym Mhrifysgol Aberystwyth a hefyd, gweithio gyda smallholdings ym Mhowys.

(Translation). Thank you, Mr Hanson, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this historic debate through the medium of Welsh. It is the first time we have been able to use the Welsh language in Westminster. It has not happened before, which is why the debate is historic.

Personally speaking, it is significant for me, too, to be able to make my contribution in Welsh. When I was elected to the National Assembly for Wales in Cardiff bay in 1999, I could not speak a word of Welsh. However, since then, I have done my very best to learn the language—the language of heaven. All of my ancestors were first-language Welsh speakers. My parents also spoke Welsh as a first language, but after getting married they moved to a part of Montgomeryshire where nobody spoke Welsh. More significantly, the Welsh language was seen as a failed language; nobody wanted to speak the Welsh language. Things have changed now, but many people have forgotten the situation of many years ago.

I did not hear my father or mother speak Welsh at all, so my five sisters and I could not speak a word of Welsh. I could not do so until I became an Assembly Member. Having been elected to the Assembly, where a great deal of Welsh is spoken, including in the Chamber, I decided that I needed to learn the Welsh language. So, as you can see, Mr Hanson, this historic debate is particularly important to me on a personal level, as well as being historic in terms of events in Westminster.

This Welsh Grand Committee debate gives us an opportunity to consider the Budget and its implications for Wales. In my view—I know that not everyone will agree—it has been very good news for Wales. The Budget increased the funding available to the Welsh Government to spend on public services in Wales. The spending power increased by £12 billion, which is significant. When I was an Assembly Member there was a great deal of debate about the Barnett formula and the Barnett floor, too. There were demands for more funding and more spending powers for Wales.

At the time, Professor Gerry Holtham was seen as an expert on all of these issues, and every time we discussed the Budget in the National Assembly people would quote Professor Holtham. Now, having agreed a financial framework with the Welsh Government, Professor Holtham has described the situation as a very fair settlement, so things have moved on a great deal, and the Welsh Government have also welcomed the financial framework. They see it as long-term fair funding for Wales, and that has happened under a Conservative Government. I am particularly pleased to hear such comments.

The other point that is important to me is that in the Budget the Chancellor spoke about strengthening the economy in all parts of Wales. He spoke about the Cardiff city deal and the city deal in Swansea. He also talked about the north Wales growth deal and, for the first time, he mentioned a mid-Wales growth deal, which is hugely important for me. It is too early to know exactly what a mid-Wales growth deal will mean, but it is important that local people in mid-Wales bring their ideas forward. When I speak to people in my constituency and outside my constituency in mid-Wales, I will encourage everyone and all the organisations involved to bring forward their ideas, and hopefully we will be able to take advantage.

I have spoken to the hon. Member for Ceredigion. I hope we will be able to take full advantage of the environmental and agricultural research undertaken at Aberystwyth University and also work with the smallholdings in Powys.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Mae yna lawer iawn o bobl yn y gogledd eisiau cymryd rhan yn y ddêl ar gyfer twf. Roeddwn mewn cyfarfod diweddar gyda’r brifysgol ym Mangor. Mae ganddynt syniadau da iawn ond fawr o syniad sut i ymgeisio. Mae’r manylion ar sut ddylai’r cynllun yma weithio yn brin iawn. Onid yw hynny’n neges i’r Llywodraeth y dylsant ddarparu’r wybodaeth yma rwan am fod syniadau da allan yno yn barod i fynd?

(Translation) A great many people in north Wales also want to take part in the growth deal. However, having had a recent meeting with Bangor University, where there are very good ideas, I know that it does not really know how to apply the details, which are scarce, of how the deal will work. That is a message for the Government that they should provide that information now, because there are good ideas out there ready to go.

[Glyn Davies]

Fel ddywedais i, yn y canolbarth, mae’n amser cynnar iawn. Mae cyfrifoldeb arnom ni i gynnig syniadau. Rwyf yn credu bydd Ysgrifennydd Cymru yn barod i dderbyn syniadau. Mae’n gyfle i gryfhau’r economi yng ngogledd Cymru ac yn y canolbarth. Mae’n bwysig hefyd i gryfhau’r cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth rhwng y canolbarth a chanolbarth Lloegr. Mae’n bwysig cysylltu gyda’r farchnad yng nghanolbarth Lloegr. Mae’r Newtown bypass yn agor eleni; mae hyn yn bwysig. Mae pont newydd yn symud ymlaen ym Machynlleth, dros y Dyfi.

Y cam nesaf yw cael ffordd newydd rhwng Trallwng a ffin Lloegr yn sir Amwythig. Mae’n bwysig cael cysylltiad rhwng y canolbarth a Lloegr. Mae’r farchnad yn bwysig i ni ac rwyf eisiau gweld y growth deal yn y canolbarth yn canolbwyntio ar hynny. Hefyd, wythnos nesaf, mae £7 miliwn yn mynd i fewn i’r rheilffordd rhwng y Drenewydd ac Aberystwyth. Mae lot yn digwydd. Mae cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth yn bwysig iawn os ydym am weld y canolbarth yn symud ymlaen.

Mae prosiect Pumlumon yn bwysig hefyd. Dydy pobl ddim yn gwybod lot am y prosiect, ond y cynllun yw i dalu ffermwyr â dros 100,000 erw—rhaid i mi edrych i weld os ydw i’n dweud yr un peth yn Gymraeg—i stopio llifogydd yn Lloegr. Mae hyn yn bwysig iawn a bydd yn dda i ffermwyr yn y canolbarth. Bydd yn help mawr i arbed gwario miliynau i stopio llifogydd yn Lloegr. Mae growth deal yn y canolbarth yn beth da ar gyfer hyn. Mae camlas Mynwy yn bwysig, yn mynd dros y ffin, a gobeithio gall y buddsoddiad ynddo fod yn rhan o’r mid-Wales growth deal hefyd.

Rwyf wedi bod yn Aelod yn y Cynulliad ac yn Aelod yma yn San Steffan, ac rwy’n deall bod angen i’r ddwy Lywodraeth weithio gyda’i gilydd i gael yr elw mwyaf. Mae hyn yn digwydd a dyma pam rwy’n optimistig ac yn credu bydd hyn yn parhau trwy berthynas bositif. Dwi ddim yn darllen beth sydd yn y cyfryngau. Mae’r ddwy Lywodraeth yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd ac mae hyn yn bwysig.

I orffen, rwyf eisiau mynd yn ôl at yr iaith Gymraeg a sut mae gwleidyddiaeth a materion cyhoeddus yn cael eu darlledu yng Nghymru. Dylai beth sy’n digwydd yng Nghymru—yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol—gael mwy o sylw yn y cyfryngau yng Nghymru. Rydym ni i gyd yma yn dibynnu ar ddarlledu yng Nghymru i gysylltu â phobl Cymru i ddweud wrthyn nhw beth rydym ni’n gwneud yma. Rwy’n dibynnu ar y BBC, S4C a ITV i wneud hyn.

Roedd yn grêt gweld Radio Cymru 2 yn dechrau mis diwethaf. Mae’n bwysig iawn i Gymru a dwi’n llongyfarch Betsan Powys ar ei gwaith. Heddiw, rwyf eisiau dweud fy mod yn siomedig ar ôl clywed bod “O’r Senedd” yn gorffen—mae pawb yn adnabod y rhaglen—a dydw i ddim yn gwybod beth sydd yn dod yn ei lle. Dydw i ddim yn meddwl mai rhaglen sy’n delio â gwleidyddiaeth sy’n dod yn ei lle. Rwyf hefyd yn cofio “CF99”. Os rydym am gysylltu â phobl Cymru, mae rhaglenni fel “O’r Senedd” yn bwysig iawn i ni. Dydw i ddim eisiau gweld yn lle “O’r Senedd” rhyw fath o adloniant; rwyf eisiau gweld y cyfryngau yng Nghymru yn delio â gwleidyddiaeth yma yn San Steffan mewn ffordd ddifrifol. Yr unig ffordd rydym ni yn gallu cysylltu gyda’r bobl yng Nghymru yw trwy’r cyfryngau. Gobeithio, yn lle “O’r Senedd”, bydd rhyw fath o raglen sy’n delio â’r pynciau pwysig i Gymru mewn ffordd ddifrifol.

(Translation) As I said, in mid-Wales it is at a very early stage. There is a responsibility on all of us to bring forward ideas. I think the Secretary of State for Wales is willing to take on board these ideas, and that is where we are at the moment. I see an opportunity to strengthen the economy of north and mid-Wales. I also believe it is important to strengthen the transport links between mid-Wales and the midlands. It is hugely important that we can link up with the markets in the midlands. The Newtown bypass will open this year. That is important, and the new bridge over the Dyfi in Machynlleth is making progress.

The next step is to have a new road between Welshpool and the border with England in Shrewsbury. It is important to have those connections with England. The market is hugely important to us, and I want to see the growth deal in mid Wales focusing on that issue. Also, next week, £7 million will be invested in the railway between Newtown and Aberystwyth.

Also, next week, £7 million will be invested in the railway between Newtown and Aberystwyth. There is a great deal happening. Transport links are hugely important if mid-Wales is to make progress.

The Pumlumon project is also important. I do not know too much about it yet, but as I understand it the plan is to pay farmers—those with 100,000 acres, I think, but I will have to check that figure—to stop run-off from their land. That is hugely important. It will be positive for farmers in mid-Wales, and it will be of huge assistance in saving millions of pounds on flood prevention work in England. The mid-Wales growth deal is very positive. The Montgomery canal is also important, and I hope that investment in that is part of the mid-Wales growth deal, too.

Having been a Member of the Assembly and a Member here in Westminster, I have come to understand that the two Governments must work together if we are to achieve maximum benefit. I think that is happening, so I am optimistic. I think a positive relationship can develop between the Governments. I do not read about what is happening in the media. The Governments are working together, and that is hugely important.

To conclude, I want to move back to the issue of the Welsh language and how politics and public affairs are covered in Wales. What happens in Wales—and in the National Assembly—should get more coverage in the media in Wales. We are all reliant on broadcasters in Wales to connect with the people of Wales and inform them about what is happening here. That is hugely important. I think of the role of the BBC, S4C and ITV in delivering those messages.

It was wonderful to see Radio Cymru 2, a second Welsh-language radio channel, established last month. That is hugely important for Wales, and I congratulate Betsan Powys for the work that she has done. However, I was a little disappointed to hear that the S4C programme “O’r Senedd” is to cease broadcasting. I am not sure what is going to replace it, but I do not think that it will be a programme dealing with politics. I remember when “CF99” was on S4C. If we are to connect with the people of Wales, programmes such as “O’r Senedd” are hugely important. I raise that point because I do not want to see some sort of entertainment provided in place of “O’r Senedd”. I want to see the media in Wales cover politics here in Westminster and at the Assembly seriously. The only way that we can connect to the people of Wales is through the media. I hope that “O’r Senedd” will be replaced by some sort of programme that covers the important issues of the day for Wales.

Wales Bill

Debate between Glyn Davies and Hywel Williams

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

I rise to speak to amendments 32, 33 and 38 to 45. My hon. Friends will seek to catch your eye later, Sir Alan, to speak on the aspects that concern them. I also wish to speak to clause 18 stand part.

Amendment 32 is a technical amendment. Clause 8 provides that Assembly legislation dealing with certain protected matters—the name of the Assembly, who is entitled to vote at Assembly elections, the voting system and so on—would require a super-majority of the Assembly. It requires the Presiding Officer to decide whether an Assembly Bill relates to a protected matter and to state that decision, and I do not disagree with any of that.

However, the clause then requires that that statement be in both English and Welsh and that the form of that statement be dealt with in the Assembly’s Standing Orders. While we agree that such statements should be made in both languages, amendment 32, which is in my name and those of my hon. Friends, would remove those two provisions. It does that for two reasons. First, including them is at odds with much of the rest of the Bill, which recognises the Assembly as a mature legislator and allows it to determine its own internal arrangements rather than what is required by Westminster. Secondly, both Welsh and English are official languages of the Assembly—as someone rather paradoxically put it, English is a Welsh language in that respect—and both must be treated equally. Therefore, providing that the Presiding Officer’s statement must be made in both languages is unnecessary—nugatory.

Amendment 33 seeks to amend clause 12, which inserts a new section into the Government of Wales Act 2006. This would replace the previous arrangements for financial controls and provide that Welsh legislation should make provision for the matters contained within that section, such as accounts to be prepared of their expenditure and receipts by the First Minister or other Ministers who draw sums from the Welsh consolidated fund. We believe that the new section should include basic safeguards in the form of minimum requirements that Welsh legislation should provide for, and that reflect good governance. Section 124 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 currently provides for authorisation by the Assembly. Amendment 33 proposes that funds should be issued from the Welsh Consolidated Fund only in accordance with legislation or authorisation by the Assembly, and can be utilised only for the purposes for which they were authorised. This simple addition to the Bill would improve accountability and responsibility, and it would reflect the provisions for Scotland—that is, section 65 of the Scotland Act 1998.

Amendments 38 to 45 are technical in nature. They amend clause 15, which provides that if the Assembly changes its name, then any reference in legislation, instruments and documents to the “National Assembly for Wales” is to be read as a reference to the new name. This saves having to change each reference to the “National Assembly for Wales”, of which there may be many thousands. However, the clause neglects the fact that Assembly Acts are prepared bilingually, and so references to the Assembly and the commission will be in Welsh and English. Moreover, it does not address the issue of legislation, instruments and documents that refer to “Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru”. The amendment clarifies that any reference in legislation, instruments and documents to “Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru” is also to be read as a reference to the new name in Welsh.

The same issues arise with regard to any change in the names of the National Assembly for Wales Commission or Acts of the National Assembly for Wales, which are also addressed in the amendment. The heading of the section inserted into the Government of Wales Act 2006 by clause 15 refers to “translation of references”. The amendment would change that to “consequential provision”. That is more appropriate, given the overall effect of clause 15, and avoids confusion between legal translation—that is, consequential provisions—and linguistic translation of references. I look forward to the Minister’s response and hope that he might consider adopting some of these changes on Report.

I now turn briefly to clause 18 stand part. This clause shows the speed of political change. After nearly five years of discussions about Silk and powers for Wales, we are now providing that Wales Acts are relevant to the European Communities Act 1972, although the UK has just voted to leave the EU. Obviously, this provision should remain in the Bill. We are still in the EU, and unpicking EU legislation from our domestic legislation will take many years and will not be easy. There are questions as to how decisions will be taken about which EU legislation remains.

I hope that the UK Government, of whatever stripe, but particularly of a right-wing Conservative complexion, will not take it upon themselves to decide what is, or what is not, relevant to Wales. We have already heard the comments from one Conservative leadership contender at the weekend calling for a “strong Union”, and we suspect that we know what that actually means. We need to know where Wales stands and how these powers will be determined. So-called Henry VIII powers, lying either with the UK Government or with Whitehall bureaucrats, will not be democratically acceptable.

My party, Plaid Cymru, is the official Opposition in Wales and the second largest party after the elections two months ago. The balance of competences review did not consider Wales in particular depth, but, post-Brexit, we must consider the question of which powers should be in Wales’s hands and not those of Westminster. The vote in Wales to leave the EU was not a vote to centralise power in Westminster.

I draw the House’s attention to today’s Assembly debate on a motion standing in the name of our former colleague, Simon Thomas, which states that the Assembly

“believes that following the withdrawal of the UK from the EU, provisions should be made to ensure that all legislation giving effect to EU Directives or Regulations pertaining to areas such as environmental protection, workers' rights, food safety and agriculture are retained in UK and Welsh law unless they are actively repealed by the relevant Parliament.”

The debate will repay close reading.

Whether or not Vote Leave was in a position to make the promises it made, they must be honoured by the Westminster Government because they were the Brexit promises that people voted for. That means additional money for the NHS through the Barnett formula, as well as protecting funding for our farmers and regional and structural funds post-2020.

It is right for clause 18 to remain part of the Bill, as it will be relevant until any official departure from the European Union takes place. However, the clause, like so many others, shows how the Bill has already been overtaken by events and why Wales should have so much more power than it provides. The Bill is far from being a once-and-for-all settlement, and we give notice that we will return to this matter later in this Parliament.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Thank you, Sir Alan, for calling me to speak on this hugely important Bill. The work leading up to it has played a significant part in my time in politics.

I pay tribute to the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn). I have a special reason for welcoming him to his position: of all the other Welsh Members of Parliament, I am probably the nearest to being an octogenarian, and his wonderful example gives me promise and ambition for the future. If he can do it, there is no reason why I cannot. I thank him for that, as well as for the great wit with which he has entertained me over many years.

The Bill is wide-ranging. Inevitably, opinions on it will differ and there will be an element of compromise. In his response to earlier amendments, the shadow Secretary of State said that we need to be pragmatic. We all have different opinions, including in my own party. We all, I think, want this Bill to go through, but we need to accept that we are going to have to compromise.

The big compromise that I have to make relates to the fact that the Bill transfers energy powers to the Welsh Government, the idea of which fills me with horror. I would find it difficult to support the Bill, except that the Welsh Government have, disgracefully, already taken unto themselves those powers through their local government responsibilities. That makes the Bill’s transfer of energy powers much less damaging to mid-Wales and much less of an attack on the people of mid-Wales than it would otherwise have been.

The intention behind the Bill is to provide a much more stable, long-lasting and permanent settlement for Wales and to provide clarity on it. I am not sure about the word “permanent”. I do not think it is wise to have a Wales Bill every five years, which is pretty much what we have been doing. This is not permanent: I think we will come back to developing devolution at a pace at which we can bring the people of Wales with us. Plaid Cymru Members spoke earlier about the judicial position. When the body of Welsh law is no longer tiny and grows to be substantial, we may have to revisit the issue in the future, and the same may be true of other issues that we have not entirely foreseen.

Wales Bill

Debate between Glyn Davies and Hywel Williams

Monday 31st March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point entirely. However, the commission was set up by the Government to look very closely at the question and it came to a unanimous judgment, but they then decided to adopt only some parts of its report. My point is that I wanted them to adopt the entire recommendations of part I of the Silk report. It is disappointing that they did not, because we can see the package of reforms that the commission came to as its conclusion.

It is also massively disappointing that the Government waited so long to respond to the report. We were told that they would respond in the spring of 2013. Then it was pushed to the summer. I remember making the point in the Welsh Grand Committee, when the Secretary of State said that spring officially ends in June, that July in Welsh is Gorffennaf—gorffen haf—which means the end of summer. We waited, and autumn came. The nights were drawing in, the countdown to Christmas began and, eventually, a full year after the commission produced its report, the Government responded.

[Glyn Davies]

I am listening to the hon. Gentleman’s speech with great interest, but does he accept that moving forward with a Bill to recommend tax-raising powers for the National Assembly for Wales is a huge advance in devolution that will, if such powers are granted, transform the Assembly’s authority? Does he agree that introducing those powers in a Bill as quickly as the Government have done—we are debating it today with a view to taking it through in this Parliament—is quite a creditable performance?

[Hywel Williams]

I am indeed very glad that the Bill is before us, as I said at the start of my speech, but I am contrasting the time between the commission reporting and the Government responding. We suddenly have the Bill before us today. I certainly welcome that, but I have no idea why it has appeared so quickly; it is not for me to comment on the lack of other Government business.

I know that the term “a slap in the face for Wales” is very well used, and I hope that it will be reported tomorrow by our friends in the BBC, but I must say that to ignore such a fundamental report—as the hon. Gentleman has just pointed out—for so long is somewhat disrespectful. More importantly for us in Plaid Cymru and for other hon. Members, it is also damaging to the political and economic progress that our country can make. The Welsh Government continue to be denied the powers that they should be able to exercise—they are also denied the funding that they should have—and that were recommended by Gerry Holtham. However, we are where we are—but where are we?

Towards the end of last year, the Prime Minister swept into the Senedd building in Cardiff Bay to a media fanfare and the flashes of cameras, and announced new financial powers for Wales, but the proposals were rather light on detail. Indeed, the Prime Minister had discovered “anti-gravitas”, as I called it at the time, in making a proposal that then seemed to float away. It was not until some weeks later that we learned that all was not as it seemed. The Government had cherry-picked the cross-party Silk commission’s recommendations—accepting some, but only in part, and even omitting others.

The draft Wales Bill was published in January, and the Welsh Affairs Committee, of which I was a member, was tasked with its pre-legislative scrutiny, with a tight turnaround for producing a report. I must say that I enjoyed the process of scrutinising the Bill, and I pay tribute to all Committee members and to the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), for his chairmanship. Contrary to his rather fierce, if not sometimes eccentric, persona in this Chamber, he was the model of a balanced Chairman, and I was very glad, if slightly surprised, that he acted in that way.

To return to the narrative, the Government then seemed to be in a hurry, and we now have the Bill. The Welsh Affairs Committee sessions took evidence from a variety of independent academics, civil society groups and even elected politicians from both this place and the National Assembly for Wales. Interestingly, even Opposition party leaders from Cardiff graced the Committee’s sittings. That move was not uncontroversial, because the Committee’s purpose is of course to scrutinise the Government at Westminster. Having the party leaders from Cardiff caused a certain amount of head scratching, because it was something of a first. However, it indicated that this was not some humdrum scrutiny exercise of a small Whitehall Department or a minor Bill because, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), the Committee was considering part of the blueprint for the next stage in our national political development, and it deserved such a level of scrutiny.

The consensus that began to emerge was that borrowing powers were vital to allowing the Government of Wales, formed of whichever party or parties, to be able to borrow for investment to boost our economy and create jobs. However, the consensus was that the lockstep on income tax rates meant that the provision could not realistically be varied, because the power was unusable. Other than the duo of the Secretary of State for Wales and his Treasury colleague, the Exchequer Secretary—unsurprisingly—all agreed that it would be far better to have the ability to vary each individual income tax band rate.

During sittings of the Welsh Affairs Committee, I pointed out a paradoxical effect of raising or lowering tax rates with a lockstep. If we raise the tax rates with a lockstep, the higher rates are then less progressive than the lower ones: if we raise tax by a penny on the 20p band, we increase it by a twentieth, while if we raise it by a penny in the 40p band, we increase it by a fortieth. We should bear that slightly obscure ratio issue in mind. Equally, a decrease has a similar effect.

The cross-party Silk commission recommended in the first place that we should not have a lockstep. I proposed an amendment in discussions on the Welsh Affairs Committee report—I proposed that the Committee recommended dropping the lockstep. Unsurprisingly, our three friends from the Tories voted against my amendment; the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) and I voted for it; but, unaccountably, Labour members of the Committee managed to abstain. Even though they have publicly declared opposition to the lockstep in the Committee, they did not step up to the plate.

Transport Infrastructure (North Wales)

Debate between Glyn Davies and Hywel Williams

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I want to do exactly as you would prefer me to do, Mr Caton, which is to speak for a very short time, because I intend to make only one point in this debate. My point builds on one made by the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) about the relationship between the Welsh and British Governments and how they work together to recognise cross-border links.

The issue of cross-border links applies to several areas in Wales, but as this debate is about north Wales, I want to speak specifically about Llanymynech. I will not go into the case for a bypass at Llanymynech today, because it has been made elsewhere and would take away from the point that I want to make, which I want to make on the basis of the strong case for that bypass having already been made. Part of that new road would be in Wales and part of it in England, so it would require a commitment from both sides. There is often a strong commitment from Wales in these cases, as there would clearly be access to markets in England—in mid-Wales, near Middletown, there is a very strong case, and only a little bit of the road would be in England. The case from Wales is very strong and the investment would be made, but the case from the English side is very weak, because there is little access to markets. Although the scheme would be hugely important to the benefit of Wales, it cannot go ahead. It has been stopped, by devolution, from even being considered. That is a negative aspect of devolution which will grow over time. As road links elsewhere in Wales improve, we will still find bottlenecks on the border that cannot be dealt with because of devolution.

[Hywel Williams]

I do not want to disagree with the hon. Gentleman, but he ascribed the difficulties to devolution. Were there any moves to improve the road before devolution? As he identified, the problem comes on the English side, so if devolution is the problem, surely it is not devolution to the Welsh Government; it is something else, which people do not talk about here: devolution in England, possibly.

[Glyn Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Discussions about that particular road crossing in Llanymynech had been going on for many years, but my understanding is that it is now not being considered at all, because of the difficulty of coping with the constitutional problems. Cross-border links in other parts of Wales have fallen off the radar because of the difficulties of taking them forward. We must address that.

Devolution is not independence. It is not separation, even though some Members might prefer it to be so. We need the Governments in Wales and England to work together on projects in which they both have an interest and accept that sometimes the priority on one side must be considered alongside the priority on the other. With cross-border links—I have used the example of Llanymynech today—that is crucial. The English Government must consider the economic benefits of Wales when looking at the priority they might give to such schemes. I hope the Minister takes that on board and considers it in relation not only to north Wales, but to cross-border links from the north to the south of Wales.

Upland Sheep Farmers

Debate between Glyn Davies and Hywel Williams

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Glyn Davies]

I very much agree with the right hon. Gentleman, although today I will try to avoid dealing with some of the consequential commercial issues relating to the current position. What I want to address—I will come to this—is what I see as the disconnect between hill sheep farming today and what the wider general population thinks. If I can, I will keep away altogether from what might be deemed to be political issues, where there might be divisions of views.

The impact of the recent snowfall on the sheep-farming uplands remains, despite the snow having gone. It has not gone away with the snow. Today it is not about digging out sheep from under snowdrifts; it is more about collecting and disposing of the dead bodies of sheep and planning how to put businesses back together. I am probably one of few MPs—I might not be the only one—who has been out digging sheep out from under 10-foot snowdrifts. I particularly remember 1963, when the United Kingdom experienced far more snow and far colder conditions, and for much longer than this year. I was a teenager working on the family farm when the drifting snow buried hundreds of our sheep as they sheltered near walls and hedges. My father and I spent days searching under the snow for them. It was heartbreaking work. Most heartbreaking of all was having to stop at nightfall, knowing that there were still hundreds of sheep asphyxiating beneath our feet.

What was particularly devastating about the recent snowfall was that it was so late in the year. In 1963, the snow fell on Boxing day and lasted until early March, but this year it fell at the end of March, which is the traditional lambing season in the uplands. As the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) has pointed out, the sheep sector was already facing what the Prince’s Trust called a “perfect storm” of negative influences in March. I shall not go into all the details, but the upland sheep farmers were already facing severe problems, and the impact of what has happened has been devastating.

I want to make it clear why I have sought today’s debate. Initially, I had not intended to make any public comment. Agriculture in my constituency is devolved to the National Assembly for Wales. Naturally, I was in conversation with friends and members of the farming unions about what had happened, and at first I was heartened by the fact that the Welsh Government Minister had arranged to come to Montgomeryshire to meet local farmers and union leaders. However, when farmers contacted me after the meeting, I was horrified by the Minister’s approach, which had been totally unsympathetic and dismissive. Everyone was deeply upset by that.

I felt that that was unacceptable, and I discussed the matter with the Assembly Member colleague in Montgomeryshire, Russell George. Together, we set about seeking to change the tone of the debate. I posted my thoughts on my blog, “A View from Rural Wales”, which had quite an impact, and resolved to seek a debate in this House as soon as Parliament returned from the Easter recess. My Assembly colleague raised an urgent question in the Welsh Assembly. For whatever reason, the Welsh Government Minister responded with a far more sympathetic approach, and made a realistic and positive statement. I congratulate him on that. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) also published a statement here last Thursday, and again it was realistic and positive. So the terms of the debate have changed to some extent. It is clear to me that both Parliaments, in Cardiff Bay and in Westminster, now recognise the scale of the disaster that has struck upland sheep farmers.

I should also make it clear that I am not calling for more compensation or more subsidy for sheep farmers. Some might wish to do that, but I do not want to do so today. There will be other debates about agricultural support, and in particular about how British agriculture can remain competitive with the subsidised agricultural systems across the European Union. There might be an occasion for a debate in Wales about the controversial issue of hill farming subsidies, but I do not want to deal with those matters now. My aim today is to address what seems to be a growing disconnect between the business and tradition of farming in the uplands and the rest of the population.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I am glad that we are having this debate today. What is the hon. Gentleman’s assessment of the level of support given to farmers in other parts of the UK, given that agriculture is a devolved matter? I have seen correspondence from representatives of various countryside organisations in Wales pointing out to the Minister in Cardiff that there are advantages to be had in other parts of the UK. What is the hon. Gentleman’s assessment of the situation?

[Glyn Davies]

I have not made such an assessment. I have seen two of the statements, but I have not looked at what has happened in Scotland or in Northern Ireland. I know that there are differences, however, and it is inevitable that they will be pointed out. At one stage, I thought that I might do that today, but I specifically decided against it because it would inevitably have led to the kind of debate that I did not want. I am probably a bit unusual in that I did not want a debate with a great deal of confrontation. Instead, I want to highlight the issue so that people can understand what has happened.

I want to say something about the sort of things that happened when the snow fell and re-formed itself into huge drifts. Yesterday, in a sort of surgery, I talked to union leaders and upland farmers at Welshpool livestock market. I spoke to one farmer who had just sent 72 dead sheep away in a lorry. He had also picked up another 72 dead sheep and they were awaiting collection. That illustrates the scale of what is happening. To make a terrible situation worse, he will have to pay several thousand pounds to have them taken away. That is not an uncommon experience.

On Sunday night, I switched the television on and watched the excellent Adam Henson covering the scale of the deaths on “Countryfile”. I caught the latter part of the debate. There was a large pile of carcases in the corner of the yard, but it was noticeable that the image was blurred to accommodate the sensitivity of the viewers. It was felt that they should not have to see all those dead sheep piled up like that. However, the vision of piles of dead sheep is not blurred for the owners of the dead sheep. For them, it is all too real. If people are to understand the impact, they need to know what is happening.

--- Later in debate ---

[Glyn Davies]

I was not going to make that point myself, and I thank the hon. Lady for making it. I am very pleased that the Welsh Government have given half a million pounds to charities that are in a position to identify and support those who are suffering from stress. They can do that better than a Government could ever do it. Although I was disappointed by the approach taken in the first three or four days, I think that the Minister’s response since then has been entirely positive, and I congratulate him on it.

The fact that animals have died under the snow is not the only issue, although that has received a lot of attention. There are also the issues of the other animals that have died, the loss of the grass that has been killed off by the snow and the consequent widespread shortage of feed.

Many people who do not understand hill farming do not understand that hill ewes will not readily take to artificial feed, as lowland breeds do. There will be heavy losses from snow fever and twin lamb disease, and as a result of animals that simply will not eat feed when their natural grass has gone. Huge numbers of animals will be dying from mineral deficiencies. The inevitable shortage of milk will result in lambs succumbing to illness and dying, too. They will be crushed into confined spaces, where there is much greater incidence of disease. Lambs will die in large numbers of joint ill and infectious scour, which can go straight through a flock. I remember when I had my whole flock in as a result of adverse weather conditions, but I had to turn them out into the snow, because disease arises when the animals are crammed into small spaces. Hill farmers are not used to that. They are geared up to lambing in April and lambing out. All of this adds to the direct losses from snow.

The Governments in Cardiff Bay and Westminster have responded with statements, both of which are positive and hugely welcome. I want to inject that positive note into this debate.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman will be familiar with the concept of cynefin—[Interruption.] My right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) tells me that the word in English is hefting. There will be difficulties and costs involved in replacing these sheep. This will not be a one-off incident; the effects will be felt for many years.

[Glyn Davies]

I entirely agree. I remember that when foot and mouth disease spread on to the Brecon Beacons, huge flocks were lost, and were lost for ever.

Most of the farmers I have spoken to are unsure what to do with their dead animals, of which they have large numbers. Normally, they would have them collected, at considerable cost, and taken away to be incinerated, but the National Fallen Stock Company could not reach the farms because of the snow and the farmers were told by the Welsh Assembly Minister that he was considering a derogation from the relevant EU regulation to allow farmers to bury dead animals on their farms. My understanding, however, is that that derogation is a matter for local government and that there was no requirement for farmers to wait for an announcement from the Welsh Minister. All that was needed was an agreement with the relevant local authority. That situation seems odd and I find it confusing. I hope that the Minister will be able to clarify the position.

Fuel Poverty and Energy Efficiency

Debate between Glyn Davies and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

That is a very good point. I hope that the Government’s pension policy will address some of that under-claiming. I will refer later to a particular aspect of this question—namely winter payments—which the hon. Gentleman will certainly be interested in.

There is less availability of mains gas in Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and rural England. That leads to rural areas being dependent on off-grid fuel, which is a point that I made to the Secretary of State earlier. People have to adopt and then pay for alternatives that are, of themselves, much more expensive and, of course, they have to pay up front. I came across a case last week of a pensioner who had been saving hard all year, essentially to put £600-worth of fuel into a tank in her garden. It was quite a strain.

Delivery in winter, particularly of gas, can be difficult, as we found in north-west Wales two years ago, when some households with pensioners could not heat their houses because the lorry could not get up to the house and they could not afford to put money up front earlier in the year. It is all very well to talk about switching and getting the best deal but, as I said earlier, pensioners would be much better off if they could spend the money given to them by the Government earlier in the year, when coal and gas are cheaper. They would get more bangs for the buck—I am sorry for that particular remark, but they would get more for their money.

There is limited potential for switching because of the cost. People cannot change the equipment easily if they are off-grid. For example, converting a solid fuel stove to gas costs a great deal of money. Switching suppliers is less common among those with off-grid fuel than for those with electricity or mains gas. The Office of Fair Trading figures for 2011 show that 3.7% of people with such solid, liquid and gas fuels switched supplier. People who depend on cylinder gas, although I concede that they are very few, are in an even more difficult situation.

I was glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Angus (Mr Weir) introduced a private Member’s Bill to allow winter fuel payments to be made earlier in the year, but it was blocked. I hope that the Government will look at that idea sympathetically.

Wales is in the bizarre situation of being rich in mineral and renewable sources of energy, but having one of the highest levels of fuel poverty in the UK. We are energy rich and fuel poor. According to the Welsh Government, we have the potential to produce double the amount of electricity that we need. According to the Department of Energy and Climate Change here in London, Wales is a net exporter of electricity, and yet energy prices in Wales are among the highest.

We in Plaid Cymru have called for planning decisions on energy to be devolved. It is our belief that that would improve the situation markedly. Last year, my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) presented a simple and reasonable Bill to devolve energy planning policy to the Welsh Government.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Hywel Williams]

I will resist, given that I am nearly at the end of my remarks and other people want to speak.

We want to see devolution that puts Wales on an equal footing with Scotland and Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, that was resisted by Government Members, with a few honourable exceptions.

As many Members have said, people should not have to choose between heating and eating—not in the UK and certainly not in energy-rich Wales.

UK and Welsh Governments (Finance)

Debate between Glyn Davies and Hywel Williams

Tuesday 11th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams]

My hon. Friend makes a very pertinent point. The question was asked of me in preparation for this debate whether one set of discussions needed to be concluded before the other set of discussions could be concluded. Do we not need to wait until the questions about responsibility are decided before we decide what the financial settlement is? My hon. Friend makes a very good point. What I am looking for in this debate is some answers from the Minister, who perhaps can enlighten us. My understanding is that, with the intergovernmental discussions, no communiqués are issued. Ministerial statements have lacked detail. Freedom of information requests have been refused or severely curtailed. Written questions have produced stonewalling answers. There is little information in the public domain and there is no schedule for reporting as there is with the Silk commission.

Therefore, as I said, my aim in today’s debate is simply to obtain some information on who is involved in the meetings, what is happening, what progress they have made, when they will conclude and how they will be reported. The debate is an opportunity for the Government and, indirectly, their interlocutor in Wales to report back to the Welsh people in their favourite forum—Parliament here in London—so here is an open goal for the new Minister.

Let me set out the headings of the matters that I would like the Minister to address. The primary aim of the discussions, as I understand them, is to consider the conclusions reached by the Holtham commission about the block funding grant for Wales—the so-called and now much-criticised Barnett formula. I say “now much-criticised”, as the Barnett formula had no stauncher defenders than members of the previous Administration, who repeatedly referred to it as

“a good deal for Wales”—

that is, until they were no longer in government. Then it was all awful.

The Holtham commission, as we well know, found that the Barnett formula was “not fit for purpose”. There was agreement with that in a variety of other reports issued at the same time from the House of Lords, the House of Commons and the Calman commission and in discourse between political parties and the various parts of Welsh civil society. That is because Barnett is unrelated to the relative needs of each of the devolved Administrations. Instead, it depends on the spending decisions made by individual Departments in England, so the amount of money spent in Wales depends on the amount spent in England. More than that, the formula is intended to converge with the English average, irrespective of whether that helps the people of Wales. That was the initial intention at least—a converging formula.

The amount of money that we get is decided not according to our needs, but according to the formula; and the gap between the amount of money that we need and the amount available is growing. The Holtham commission estimated, conservatively, that there was a gap of about £400 million between the amount of funding that Wales receives and its relative needs. However, those figures are now several years out of date, as well as being based on spending estimates rather than the final budget. More recent estimates by our colleague, Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym, suggest that the difference in 2010-11 could have been as high as £680 million, not £400 million.

My worry, therefore, as far as the discussions are concerned, is that if we accept the much-touted suggestion of a Barnett floor to prevent further convergence, we will lock ourselves into the existing inequality. The Barnett floor might actually become a Barnett ceiling. The question for us today and for the people of Wales is at what level that might be set. Would it be at 112% of need, 113% or 114%, as Holtham suggested? The answers to those questions are crucial.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Members of all parties are concerned about the operation of the Barnett formula. I have always taken the view that we cannot deal with the situation in Wales without dealing with the situation in Scotland, because there is a huge overpayment to Scotland. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the only way of resolving the issue is to deal with Scotland and Wales at the same time?

[Hywel Williams]

I will give a plain answer to a plain question: the Barnett formula should be reformed and we should do whatever it takes to reform it. My concern, as a Welsh MP, is the effect on Wales, and the effect on Wales is very damaging. That is the point. That is why I want answers from the Minister.

Time is catching up with me, so I will press on. We would also like the Minister to report on the housing revenue account subsidy, which my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) has brought up repeatedly. According to a freedom of information request, though they may not realise it, council house tenants in Wales have donated more than £1 billion to the Treasury since devolution began. This year, the estimate is that £73 million will be returned. There is no such scheme in Scotland or Northern Ireland—it never existed—and the scheme in England, which had major changes made to it anyway about 10 years ago, has been scrapped. In answer to a written question, the former Secretary of State confirmed that it would be part of the bilateral discussions, so, I again ask the Minister, what is happening or—to coin a phrase—what’s occurring?

The role of the Welsh Government and their borrowing powers is the third issue on which I want to question the Minister. That was supposed to be part of the bilateral discussions, and the Silk commission is examining it as well. The Welsh Government have limited borrowing powers. The right to borrow to invest would make a significant difference. I know that what I am going to say will not find favour on the Government side of the Chamber: if we were to follow Keynesian principles for public sector investment, when the private sector would not do so, borrowing powers could be hugely significant for the Welsh Government. They could make investment decisions for themselves.

Does it not seem odd to people outside this place that the Welsh Government do not have borrowing powers, but local authorities do? The next strand of government down has such powers, but not the national strand in Wales. We, in Plaid Cymru, believe that significant borrowing powers should be devolved to the Welsh Government. Borrowing limits should be based on an assessment of sustainability and affordability—two principles that I am sure will find favour with the Minister. We are not advocating a spending spree. The Welsh Government should be entitled to set an annual borrowing limit for themselves, which they consider affordable. We also believe that the Welsh Government should be free to issue bonds or obtain commercial funding, as well as use the services of the Treasury’s Debt Management Office. That would enable the Welsh Government to decide which borrowing mechanism best suited their requirements. What progress can the Minister report?

As part of the Holtham discussion on borrowing powers, it was recommended that the Welsh Government have unfettered access to end-year flexibility funds—the money left over at the end of the year. It was a matter of great disappointment to, I am sure, all Welsh MPs—well, nearly all—that an unspent £386 million voted to the Welsh Government by Parliament was clawed back by the new Government in 2010. A huge amount of money disappeared down the M4, again. Previous end-year flexibility reserves were invested in projects such as the strategic capital investment framework. The money has been well used. By removing that £386 million of end-year flexibility, the UK Government in effect removed a significant sum of money from the poorest part of the British state. It would have been useful for job creation, keeping people in work and a host of priorities that all Members share.

There we are. I look to the Minister for answers. There is a new Cabinet, and a chance for a new openness and new dialogue with the people of Wales, or possibly not—let us see.

Regional Pay (Public Sector)

Debate between Glyn Davies and Hywel Williams

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies]

No, I cannot say.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman says that the debate is on a long-standing, old question from 30 years ago. I thought that the Conservative position on it in Wales was made clear in a debate on 30 September 2008, when Mr William Graham—some hon. Members might not know that he is a senior Conservative Assembly Member—said:

“First Minister, you will know that the Welsh Conservatives firmly oppose the introduction of regional pay for civil servants.”

What has changed?

[Glyn Davies]

I am sure that Mr William Graham will be extremely honoured to be quoted in a debate in this House. I will tell him about that when I speak to him later today, as I have arranged to do—[Interruption.]—not on this issue, but on another one that will be of particular interest to Welsh Members across the board.

This issue has the potential to distort local markets. That was my view 30 years ago, and I still see that potential now. I should have thought that I would have found a measure of agreement with the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr in our discussions on Sunday morning, because there are significant questions about the difficulty of transferring from one area to another, for example, and whether inflexibilities will be introduced into the market. There are a host of other issues to consider, too.

We need an inquiry. I understand that one or two Opposition Members feel that the inquiry may not look across the board. I would be disappointed if that were so. We need an inquiry that will bring forward the information that all of us, including the Chancellor, need to make a balanced judgment. The appropriate time for that to happen that will be in six months.

Public Bodies Bill [Lords] (Programme) (No. 2)

Debate between Glyn Davies and Hywel Williams

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

I rather agree with the hon. Lady. I would add that I was fortunate to get a Westminster Hall debate on S4C for half an hour, which was well attended and a contribution to the debate. The problem that I have, as I have said, is that further significant changes have occurred. Given that the amendments on S4C are the last to be dealt with before 7.45 pm, I am concerned that we might not reach them. In that case, I will take my own advice and shut up.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

rose—

S4C

Debate between Glyn Davies and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams]

Thank you, Mr Hood. I have been approached by various hon. Members, and I will certainly allow at least one intervention from each of those people who have contacted me. This debate interests people from across the political and language spectrum in Wales, and I will take further interventions. However, I will also talk very quickly, as is my wont.

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. A consensus has been built in Wales over many years, which I am afraid is in jeopardy because of this decision. That consensus has been built on proper dialogue between people who properly have an interest in the matter. That is not confined to any language group, any class or any political party. I say that as a member of Plaid Cymru.

There has been a lack of clarity about the Government’s intentions and actions in the matter, not least in relation to elected Members such as myself. If I ask the Minister some naive and ill-informed questions, the cause of that may lie not with me but with how the matter has been handled. As with a good deal of the Government’s programme, the impression has been given that it is being made up as they go along, with backtracking and amendment often the order of the day.

I would like to ask some questions, and the debate’s timing in relation to the decisions that are now being made means it is essential we have answers as a matter of urgency. First, I scarcely need to say that the threats to S4C’s future have caused huge concern in Wales and across Welsh society—both Welsh and English speaking—particularly among those who are concerned with the language. We have seen a stronger galvanising of the campaign for the Welsh language than there has been for many years—stronger even than with the campaign for new Welsh language legislation that took place some time ago.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman welcome yesterday’s statement by a trustee of the BBC that guaranteed funding up until 2017 is on offer? That issue has caused great concern to all of us.

[Hywel Williams]

Indeed, I do. However, I will come on to some questions about that later.

As I was saying, there has been a campaign the like of which we have not seen for some time. A small example of that is the e-mail bombardment of members of the Public Bodies Bill Committee. I served on that Committee with the hon. Gentleman and others. I received 1,200 messages and I answered them all, which offered some relief to the people who sent them. Other Committee members from England were amazed at the volume of correspondence, the like of which they had not seen before. I doubt, in fact, that the Government predicted that supporters of S4C would be so galvanised.

I am not sure if the Minister and his colleagues knew the background to their decision on S4C—although perhaps he will correct me later. The Conservatives would have been wise to consult those in their own party who took the initial decision to set up S4C in the first place. Former Conservative Ministers took an honourable and constructive role in that decision.