Health and Care Bill

Geraint Davies Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 22nd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend will know that two thirds of people in Britain are overweight and that one in four is obese. An enormous amount of added sugar is put into processed foods that people do not know about. Men, for instance, are not supposed to have more than nine teaspoons of added sugar, and women six, which is the equivalent of a can of coke and a light yoghurt. Does he not agree that this Bill is tremendously light on the killer that sugar is, and that not only should we be labelling it, but that the Budget should tax added sugar in processed food to reduce the waiting list?

[Alex Norris]

My hon. Friend will be delighted to hear that I will be coming on to the modesty of the Government’s plans for tackling obesity, but I have to finish my remarks about new clause 16.

New clause 16 compels the Secretary of State to publish an annual statement about the spend and impact of alcohol treatment funding. After a decade of reduced commitment in this vital area, the Secretary of State should seek to embrace this opportunity. At the moment, national Government cannot say they are meeting their responsibility to tackle alcohol harm with the requisite financial commitment and in the right place, which should discomfort them greatly. New clause 17 would replicate in England the minimum unit pricing restrictions that we see in Scotland and Wales, and we are all watching with great interest as evidence gathers as to their impact.

Let me now turn to the amendments and new clauses relating to advertising. The Government have included a couple of elements of their obesity strategy in the Bill. As I have already said to the Minister—in Committee and upstairs in the delegated legislation Committee—I wish that they had put the entire obesity strategy in this legislation, because there are bits that could have been improved by amendment, by debate and by discussion, as we heard in the contribution of the hon. Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith), and as I dare say we will in that of the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller). We should have taken that approach to the entire document, and it is sad that we did not.

On the obesity strategy itself, it is too modest and it fails to attack a major cause of obesity, which is poverty.

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[Bob Blackman]

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for raising that point. Clearly, the fact that people can no longer smoke in public houses or restaurants has dramatically reduced the incidence of smoking. Someone has to make a deliberate decision to go outside and inflict their smoke on the outside world rather than on the people in the public house or restaurant.

We who support these amendments tabled them in Committee—we sought Government support and we debated them in Committee—and now we are debating them on Report. I understand that we may not be successful tonight, but I give fair warning that these amendments, in another form, will be tabled in the other place, and we will see what happens. We know that there is very strong support in the other place for anti-tobacco legislation. In July 2021, the Lords passed by 254 votes to 224 a motion to regret that the Government had failed to make it a requirement that smoke-free pavement licences must be 100% smoke free. That is smoking in the open air; we are talking about measures to combat smoking overall.

Finally, if we look back over the years, the measures on smoking in public places, on smoking in vehicles, on smoking when children are present and on standardised packaging of tobacco products were all led from the Back Benches. Governments of all persuasions resisted them, for various reasons. I suspect that my hon. Friend the Minister, whom I know well, may resist these measures tonight, but we on the Back Benches who are determined to improve the health of this country will continue to press on with them, and we will win eventually. It may not be tonight, but those measures will come soon. I support the measures that are proposed.

[Geraint Davies]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), who gave an eloquent speech about smoking. What he did not include, and what the Minister is not considering, is the mass passive smoking from air pollution, which causes 64,000 deaths a year. I know that I am in danger of being outside the scope of the Bill, but I will make this point just briefly, because it is about public health.

Indoor and outdoor air pollution is endemic. It costs £20 billion a year. We could simply ban wood-burning stoves, which 2.5 million people have and which contribute 38% of the PM_2.5 emissions in our atmosphere. That is particularly problematic in poorer areas. I make this point partly as I chair the all-party parliamentary group on air pollution, but this is a critical public health issue, so I feel that the Department of Health and Social Care should look at it centrally, rather than leaving it to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs as an air quality issue.

I turn to the comments by the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), who sadly is not in his place, about free choice in advertising. Advertising is not about free choice; one would not need to advertise unless one was trying to convince somebody to do something they would not otherwise do. That is not to say that advertising is always bad—good things and bad things can be advertised—but let us be straightforward.

As it happens, I have a background in multinational marketing; I have been involved with PG Tips and Colgate toothpaste—good products. However, the reality is that if someone wanted to make money from a product such as a potato, which is intrinsically good for people, they could impregnate it with salt, sugar and fat, make it into the shape of a dinosaur, get a jingle and call it “Dennis’s Dinosaurs”, and make a lot of money out of that simple potato. That is the way a lot of processed foods work.

Going back to the point about diabetes and added sugar, it is important to remember that diabetes in Britain costs something like £10 billion a year. There is a compelling case for the Government to do more about added sugar, as opposed to natural sugar; obviously, we could discriminate between the two, though a lot of manufacturers will say, “Are you going to tax an apple?”. Clearly, when a child or adult can find a huge bar of chocolate in a shop for £1, we have problems, in terms of the amount of sugar we are supposed to have. Henry Dimbleby put forward a national food strategy, which is worth a read. He makes the key point that reducing the overall amount of money people have—for instance, through universal credit—has a major impact: we find that when universal credit goes down, consumption of alcohol and smoking go up.

It is important for the Department of Health and Social Care to have an idea of how the nutrition of particular natural foods can be increased through better farming. An app will be available next year that will enable people to test a carrot in their local shop. The carrot will have different levels of antioxidant, depending on how it is grown. If it is organic and not impregnated with all sorts of fertiliser and chemicals, it develops a natural resistance to pesticides and is much better for human health. The Government should, in this post-Brexit world, be actively encouraging local high-value, high-nutrition products for export and local consumption.

A whole range of public health measures that need to be moved forward are not in the strategy; but some are, such as those raised by the hon. Member for Harrow East.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I call Christian Wakeford. Do you wish to remain seated?

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[Edward Argar]

I fear that I have only a few minutes left, and I have already taken a number of interventions on this. I want to conclude by covering the tobacco amendments as well, which I know that some colleagues are keen to see a response to. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman.

Less healthy food and drink products are not age restricted at the point of purchase, unlike alcohol. Finally, the 2019 and 2020 consultations on advertising restrictions for less healthy food and drink did not consult on alcohol within the restrictions, either online or on TV, so we cannot be sure of the impact these amendments would have on the industry more broadly.

Turning to tobacco in the time I have left, because I know the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Alex Norris) , has taken a close interest in the issue, I thank the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) and others, including my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East, who have tabled a number of amendments that seek to address the harm caused by smoking in this country. I reassure the hon. Member for City of Durham of the Government’s commitment to becoming smoke free by 2030.

We have successfully introduced many regulatory reforms over the past two decades, and the UK is a global leader in tobacco control. Our reforms include raising the age of sale from 16 to 18, the introduction of a tobacco display ban, standardised packaging and a ban on smoking in cars with children, which all place important barriers between young people and tobacco products. The Government are currently developing our new tobacco control plan, and I reassure the hon. Lady that that will reflect carefully on the APPG’s findings and report.

I am afraid I cannot be tempted to go further than the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Maggie Throup), did in the recent Westminster Hall debate on this question, but I can reassure the hon. Member for City of Durham that we remain committed to bringing forward the tobacco control plan.

[Geraint Davies]

rose—

[Edward Argar]

Forgive me; I only have a few minutes and I want to cover the amendments from the hon. Member for City of Durham. The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) did manage dexterously to shoehorn air quality more broadly within the scope of these debates, and what he said will have been heard.

New clause 2, which seeks to provide powers for the Secretary of State to impose a requirement for tobacco manufacturers

“to print health warnings on individual cigarettes and cigarette rolling papers”,

is intended, as I understand from the hon. Member for City of Durham, to further strengthen our current public health messaging and encourage smokers to quit. We strongly support measures to stop people smoking, to make smoking less attractive to young people and to educate smokers of its dangers, as we have done through graphic warnings on cigarette packs.

We would need to conduct further research and build a further robust evidence base in support of any such additional measures before bringing them forward. To date, no country has introduced such a measure, so there is currently limited evidence of its impact in supporting smokers to quit. If evidence showed that the requirement would not be effective, it would not be an appropriate power to have in place.

New clause 3, also tabled by the hon. Lady, seeks to provide a power for the Secretary of State to introduce a requirement for manufacturers to insert leaflets containing health information and information about smoking cessation services into cigarette packaging. As I set out in Committee, we believe this power is unnecessary, since the Department could legislate to do that already under the Children and Families Act 2014; inserts could be required for public health messaging through amendments to the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015. We already have in place strong graphic images and warnings of the health harms of smoking on the outside of cigarette packs. As part of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, the address for the NHS website, which provides advice for people seeking to quit smoking, is also required on packaging.

The current SPoT regulations prohibit the use of inserts, as there was limited evidence that placing public health messaging inserts inside cigarette packages was more effective than messaging on the outside of packs. Further research would need to be undertaken to help to establish the public health benefit if we were to go further.

Turning briefly to new clause 4, I am grateful again to the hon. Lady for tabling this clause. The Government are clear that they only support the use of e-cigarettes as a tool for smokers who are trying to quit, and we strongly discourage non-smokers and young people from using them. We are committed to ensuring that our regulatory framework continues to protect young people and non-smokers from using e-cigarettes.

Current regulations include requirements on the packaging and labelling of e-cigarettes, along with restrictions on their marketing and the prohibiting of advertising on mainstream media such as TV and radio. While we strongly support measures to protect young people further from cigarettes, we believe the current regime remains appropriate and has the powers in place within it to make changes where required, although I suspect my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East may yet be proved right when he suggests that the other place may return to this at some point.

I have outlined the many steps this Government are taking to address some of the major lifestyle challenges to our health. The Bill represents another step in the direction of preventive healthcare and building a healthier society, an aim I know we all share. I hope the House will support the amendments we have tabled at this stage to strengthen those measures.

I also want to update the House at this point, in the context of the importance of an integrated approach and how it can improve public health measures, on two steps the Secretary of State has taken today that will put NHS staff and technology at the heart of our long-term planning and allow us to take forward the integrated approach that has proved so vital during this pandemic and is so vital to public health.

[Geraint Davies]

Will the Minister give way?

[Edward Argar]

I am afraid I will not. I suspect that point will be pertinent to the debate on the first group of amendments tomorrow.

First, we intend to merge Health Education England with NHS England and NHS Improvement, putting education and training of our health workforce at the forefront of the NHS. By bringing this vital function inside the NHS, we can plan more effectively for the long term and have clear accountability for delivery.

Secondly, we also intend to take forward the recommendations of the Wade-Gery report, which included merging NHSX and NHS Digital with NHS England and NHS Improvement, building on the huge progress made on digital transformation during the pandemic and bringing together the digital leadership of the NHS in one place. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to all our colleagues at Health Education England, NHS Digital and NHSX for their exceptional work. These changes build on that contribution and allow us to drive forward further integration and changes that will put the NHS on a firmer footing.

I hope I have reassured hon. Members of the Government’s commitment to improving public health. I urge those who have tabled amendments to consider not pressing them to a Division.

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[Edward Argar]

I entirely understand the point the hon. Gentleman is making. I think he was careful, shall we say, given some litigation that may be going on, not to mention anything specific, but I know what he is talking about. We believe that our amendment will prevent private companies—whatever services they were providing for the NHS—with a significant private interest in this, or their lobbyists, from being able to sit on ICBs. The hon. Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth) raised the need for transparency in Committee a number of times, and I suspect we may return to that point. We believe that the current transparency requirements on CCGs that will be carried across are sufficient to ensure transparency and public access to the information they need.

[Geraint Davies]

rose—

[Edward Argar]

I am afraid I am about to conclude. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman will come back in with a speech and I will endeavour to pick up on that in the wind-ups.

There are a number of similar amendments, such as amendment 101 in the names of the hon. Members for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) and for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). I hope they might feel, to some degree, reassured by our amendment and the intent behind it, but that is obviously for them to say. We believe that the Government’s amendment puts beyond doubt what we believe was already entirely clear but were determined to put beyond doubt—that ICBs will not and cannot be controlled in any way by the private sector, as NHS-accountable bodies guided by the NHS constitution and with NHS values at their heart. These principles, I believe, irrespective of other debates we may have this evening, command respect from both sides of this place. I therefore commend the amendments to the House.

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Amendments 76, 77 and 78 deal with the issue and would limit the possibility for influence by vested interests, especially those of the private, for-profit sector. Crucially, they close the door on the possibility, left open by the Government’s amendment, of private providers sitting on sub-committees or place-based bodies of ICBs. Incidentally, that problem is of the Government’s own making by virtue of them leaving the level of direction for place-based Government arrangements deliberately vague in the Bill.

[Geraint Davies]

Perhaps my hon. Friend can illuminate me. I was going to ask the Minister who owns the assets of the ICBs. Can the ICBs sell some of those assets and rent them back as a service? What constraints are there to stop people on the board enabling that, because they have some strange link to the people buying the assets?

[Justin Madders]

At the moment, ICBs are not a legal entity, so they do not own anything. When the Bill comes into force, they will effectively take over mainly administrative buildings from the CCGs, and the trust will hold ownership of most of the assets. We hope that there will not be the risks that my hon. Friend outlines, although it is not impossible for ICBs to set up their own trusts at some point in the future.

We do not believe that the question of private providers sitting on the place-based boards can be left open in this way, because this is really about who runs the NHS. There is a complete and utter incompatibility between the aims of private companies and what we say should be the aims of the NHS and the ICBs. I can do no better than refer to the evidence of Dr Chaand Nagpaul from the Bill Committee. He identified the concern perfectly:

“We forget at our peril the added value, the accountability, the loyalty and the good will that the NHS provides. We really do…I am saying that it does matter. Your local acute trust is not there on a 10-year contract, willing to walk away after two years. It is there for your population; it cannot walk away.”––[Official Report, Health and Care Public Bill Committee, 9 September 2021; c. 90, Q113.]

Those final words sum it up perfectly. Put a company on the board, and its interest lasts as long as the contract, and those interests will of course not be the same as the NHS’s anyway. A company’s primary concern is the shareholders, not the patients. With that clear and unanswerable concern about conflicts of interest, we invite the Government to withdraw their amendment and support ours.

We have already had some discussion of who goes on the ICB. Apparently, the answer is not the most appropriate people chosen by an independent external process or individuals directly accountable to the public; the answer is left to guidance that leaves open the risk that voices we think need to be heard will slip through the net. Our amendment 76 deals with that by setting out the requirements for ICB membership. Allocating scarce NHS resources should be robustly debated and will always be political. Tough choices have to be made, so we need people on the ICB who will be there to cover all the necessary interests for the wider good.

If Members look at what amendment 76 suggests, I hope nobody would argue that those interests do not have to have some voice. The public, patients, staff, social care, public health and mental health—which of those can be safely ignored and which has no part to play? As I have already mentioned, there is a major area of uncertainty because of the complete absence of anything that sets out how the much-vaunted place-based commissioning will work. Who will sit at the place-based table is, I am afraid, still completely opaque.

The next major area covered in the Bill is a further deconstruction of Lansley with the removal of compulsory competitive tendering for clinical services. We have seen the NHS proposals for a provider selection regime to replace the regulations under section 75 of the 2012 Act. That is to be regarded as a work in progress, so our amendment 72 covers the issue and would reintroduce some safeguards into how our money is spent. Since its inception, the NHS has always relied on some non-NHS providers, with the model developed for GPs being an obvious example. However, in recent decades there has been an increase in the use of private providers of acute care, most notably in diagnostics and surgery.

To be clear, we on the Opposition Benches believe that the NHS should be the default provider of clinical services. If it is not the only provider, it should be the predominant provider in geographical and services terms. Where a service cannot be provided by a public body because the capability or capacity is not there, there is still the option to go beyond the NHS itself, but that should be a last resort and never a permanent solution. Amendment 72 therefore sets out a clear framework for how we could achieve that. We hope that extra transparency and extra rigour would mean we avoid buying stuff that is unsuitable and sits in container mountains, stuff that does not meet specifications, and stuff made by companies that have no experience, but are owned by friends and family. In short, we would stop the covid crony gravy train.

The use of private sector capacity in the covid emergency turned out to be a farcical failure. It became very clear, very quickly that it was not there to support the NHS; it was there just to make profits. Use of private providers through dodgy deals during the PPE scandal has highlighted the need for greater transparency and greater capacity in the NHS. We can never allow a repeat of what we have seen there. We need the rigour set out in the amendment to be put into legislation, rather than left to guidance. We need to be able to challenge NHS bodies that do not comply, as well as Ministers who try to flout the rules.

I will now deal with new clause 49, saving the best—or more accurately, the worst—until last. Because of how Report stage works, it has fallen to me to express our opposition to this measure, rather than my expert colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), who shares my dismay at what has been produced and how it has been presented to us. Starting with the process, it is wholly wrong to bring such a fundamental change forward as a last-minute addition to this Bill. That means it cannot be debated properly today. There is no impact assessment and, as we have already heard, this change was not discussed in Committee at all. In fact, in 22 Committee sessions spanning some 50 hours, we never once heard mention of this amendment coming forward or discussion on the care cap. Indeed, when this Chamber was busy debating the social care levy, we were beavering away in Committee on the Bill, oblivious to the fact this measure was coming down the track. If the Government cannot even get their decision-making processes integrated, what hope is there for integrating health and social care?

As we know, the aim of the new clause is to remove means-tested benefits from the costs that count towards the care cap. As has been pointed out far and wide by Members from all parts of the House, that change adversely impacts some more than others. It is a wholly regressive measure, to say the least, to give support through means-testing, but then to penalise people later for receiving it in the first place. We will vote against this iniquity, and I hope many Conservative Members will vote with us. They should be used to the Prime Minister’s broken promises by now; this is their chance to make the point that he should stand by what he says.