Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill

George Howarth Excerpts

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green]

The sanctions apply if someone is convicted of a criminal offence—I think that is the point the hon. Gentleman wishes to be clarified. If someone has not been convicted of a criminal offence, matters affecting their pension would, not least, engage human rights legislation as well, so things would be much more difficult in those cases.

[Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)]

I understand the Minister’s point that if someone was guilty of a criminal offence, there would be consequences, but what if someone who was serving and was investigated at the time had been found guilty of not carrying out their duties in an appropriate manner? That would have been a disciplinary matter rather than a criminal matter. Is there any sanction that could apply in those circumstances?

[Damian Green]

I think we are getting into the realms of speculation about individuals. There is a clear distinction, which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will recognise, between criminality and pure misconduct. It is clearly difficult to take disciplinary action against someone who is no longer an employee. At the most serious end, many of the Hillsborough cases would potentially involve criminal sanctions, but too detailed speculation on these matters might be unhelpful in the long run, not least to the families and others seeking justice as well as truth.

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[Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)]

I have been sitting here waiting to be called trying to think of some words with which to introduce my comments. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman),who I thought was about to leave just as I was going to compliment her, expressed well the strong feelings her constituents and mine have about the independent panel report chaired by the Bishop of Liverpool. I do not seek to add to that, other than to say that she demonstrated that we are almost at the point of exhausting the lexicon of infamy in describing what came out in it.

I want to make only two points, and I will try to be brief. First, with a little indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to say that I know the Attorney-General is close to the end of his deliberations on whether an application should be made to the court on the inquest that took place. As I have said previously, I attended one day of the inquest with some of my constituents and have never witnessed proceedings so designed to offend. I do not want to add to that, but I do not use that description lightly. I hope the Attorney-General will reach a speedy conclusion to his deliberations, that the application will be made to the court quickly and that notice is taken of the online petition referred to by my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), which was set up by Anne Williams. I hesitate to go much further than that because I am well aware of how the Lord Chief Justice might respond to the interference of politicians in the conduct of the courts, but I hope it will be given prominence in the discussions between the Attorney-General and the Lord Chief Justice. We have the opportunity to talk about serving officers when we discuss the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley), myself and others, so I will reserve my comments on that issue until then.

The second issue is whether retired police officers can be compelled to give evidence to the IPCC’s investigation. My hon. Friends the Members for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) and for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) and the hon. Member for City of Chester have rightly called on the good name of the police and said that they hope everyone will do the honourable and honest thing. I echo those calls, but I throw in a note of caution. Some people who are now retired—I will not get into the realms of talking about who they may be or what they may have done—may be culpable of offences. Appeals to their honour, when by giving evidence they risk being put in a position where they are either telling lies or incriminating themselves, will in some cases fall on fairly stony ground.

In the years I have been a Member of this House, and even before that, I have always been a strong supporter of the police. I believe they perform an incredibly important role on behalf of all of us in society. But the truth is—my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside mentioned this difference—we know that serving police officers, either under pressure or voluntarily, altered important statements, and many of them will now be retired. I realise the Minister’s problem, and I am not criticising him for not finding a way of covering those people in the Bill, but the IPCC will have to think about how it can, if not compel, at least make it difficult for those retired officers not to give evidence. Quite how it can do that, at this juncture, is beyond me. I do not offer any suggestions, but it is something that the IPCC needs to give careful thought to.

I wish to bring to the IPCC’s attention one other point that has been referred to already. Often, it is all too easy to find a friendly doctor to say, “This person is not in a fit state to give evidence in such a forum.” Let us be brutally honest. If someone searches for long enough, they will find a doctor who will do that. If what I shall call the Pinochet defence is used in these cases, I hope that the IPCC will not accept it at face value and that, if somebody claims to be unable to give evidence on the grounds of ill health, further inquiries will be made to test the validity of the claim.

Finally, it was remiss of me not to welcome the Bill and the work that the Home Secretary, the Minister and my right hon. and hon. Friends have done to bring us to this pass. With the reservations I have outlined, I am happy to give my strong support to the Bill.

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[Damian Green]

I already have in my diary a meeting with the Police Federation next week, and I would be happy to meet the Police Superintendents Association at any time.

There has been a lot of discussion about retired officers—not least by the shadow policing Minister, but also by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), the hon. Members for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) and for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) and the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson). As I have said, former officers are civilians—not police officers—and they are no longer bound by the duties and regulations that governed their lives as serving officers. The police themselves do not have powers to compel witnesses to attend interviews, so I can only repeat that to grant this power to the IPCC would be unusual in the extreme. However, given the seriousness of the allegations being considered by the IPCC in the Hillsborough case, I repeat that the IPCC has made it clear that it will fully conclude investigations for both criminality and misconduct even when officers have left the service.

This is an unusual step. The IPCC does not normally investigate retired officers for misconduct, but it is clear in this case that there is an enormous and legitimate public demand, reflected by Members of all parties, for that to happen. That is what the IPCC was going to do. During its investigation, the IPPC will no doubt call retired officers to provide evidence. As we all agree, the retired officers will understand the importance of this investigation, and I am sure that the vast majority, if not all of them, will attend willingly.

Finally, the IPCC has been clear that it needs these powers only in respect of serving officers. That is what the Bill provides for. I understand the calls to grant a power to compel retired officers to give evidence, but because it is so unusual and because it would be such a powerful tool, I think it would be inappropriate to do this through fast-track legislation. That should be considered when it comes to the possibility of future legislation.

[Mr George Howarth]

I understand the Minister’s point that making a change such as this in fast-track legislation might not be appropriate, but can he give a commitment that, should it become apparent later that there is a reluctance on the part of retired officers to come forward, some further action could be taken by this House to bring in an element of compulsion?

[Damian Green]

What I will say is that we are debating this Bill here today because the IPPC came to the Government and said, “We need extra powers.” We have responded as quickly as possible so as not to delay the move from truth to justice. We are always willing to accept representations from the IPCC and to consider what is the most practical way of allowing it to do its job as efficiently as possible.

The right hon. Member for Delyn asked me about a related subject, namely the retirement of officers during an investigation. The IPCC can continue an investigation into either criminal or misconduct matters even when an officer has chosen to retire in the middle of it. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is reassured by that. He also asked about private contractors. Contractors working as detention and escort officers already fall under the IPCC’s oversight, and are therefore covered by the Bill. We are considering the need to extend the provision to other kinds of contractor. That is not relevant to events that took place in 1989, because there were no private contractors then, but we will consider the issue in the longer term, along with the IPCC.

I was asked when the IPCC investigation would conclude. I think that everyone recognises that it is a huge, complex, far-reaching investigation, and that it will take time for it to conclude thoroughly. The last thing we want is an investigation that is not carried out thoroughly. The IPCC will set out the scope and projected timings in the new year. As well as meeting my officials, it has been meeting the families and their representatives, and will continue to do so in order to ensure that they are in the loop at all times.

My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) asked about sanctions. As we are about to debate that subject, I shall not intrude on your patience, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I will say that we have not expressly provided for a sanction for failing to comply with a witness attendance requirement because effective sanctions are already available under the Police (Conduct) Regulations 2012. I shall doubtless say more about that shortly, when we discuss amendment 1.

Let me again thank the Opposition, and Members in all parts of the House, who have spoken today and expressed their support for the Bill. I hope that the constructive manner and tone that have characterised the debate will serve as a reassurance, not least to the families of the victims, that the House is working well to try to help them as much as possible. I look forward to the Bill’s remaining stages.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.