Oral Answers to Questions

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Excerpts

Monday 8th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Greg Clark]

It is a long-established fact that Conservative councils offer lower council tax than Labour councils, which accounts for their success and their majority in local government.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the gap between urban and rural authorities is widening? If it is widening in favour of urban authorities, will not the council tax payers in rural authorities, who are going to see their council tax rise considerably over the next three years, have to conclude that they are subsidising higher-spending urban authorities?

[Greg Clark]

My hon. Friend knows that we are moving to a world in which councils will be funded by council tax and business rates. It is essential that the formula underpinning that is fair to all types of authority. That has been very clear in representations that he and others have made.

Sustainable Development Goals

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Excerpts

Wednesday 28th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mary Creagh]

I make no apology for demanding transparency when it comes to where the taxpayer’s money is being spent. There is nothing wrong with working with the private sector. These are funds that were set up by a Labour Government. However, when funds are scaled up so quickly without changes being made to governance and oversight, the National Audit Office—not me—is concerned about where and how the money is being spent.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

I am sure the hon. Lady agrees that the coalition’s record on delivering the 0.7% of GNI is one of which we should be extremely proud, on behalf of the whole country. If our constituents are to have confidence in that spending, we shall need to see the maximum transparency and value for money. Instead of coming up with a litany of criticisms of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State—who I think has done a fantastic job—will the hon. Lady answer these questions? If she ever becomes Secretary of State, how many countries will she identify as an aid target, and what level of sign-off will she prescribe for her Department? How many DFID-run projects has she already visited, and how many projects does she expect to visit if and when she becomes Secretary of State?

[Mary Creagh]

That is very kind. Unlike many Government Members who discovered a new-found interest in development as soon as they were appointed to their roles, I have a long-standing interest in the subject. Let us start with my volunteering for Oxfam in Sri Lanka for two months in 1990. Let us move on to my visit to Rwanda and eastern DRC—

Oral Answers to Questions

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Excerpts

Wednesday 5th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am very happy to discuss this with the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps on a forthcoming visit to Northern Ireland, we might be able to meet in Ulster and discuss these issues. I think the issue he refers to is also plain paper packaging, where I want to see us make progress; I think there are important health benefits there. I am happy to discuss the issue with him.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

Q4. My right hon. Friend may be aware that my constituents Dr and Mrs Turner’s granddaughter died of the dreadful disease meningitis B. Thirty babies die of this a year. Much more worryingly, 300 babies are severely maimed; indeed, a baby in Bristol at the moment is facing quadruple amputations. There is a licensed and safe vaccine available; the issue is cost. Will my right hon. Friend please intervene to see what can be done to resolve this issue?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing up this issue. I am certainly keen to help if I can. If we were able to introduce a vaccine, I think we would be the first country in the world to do so nationally. But as he says, there are issues. That is why, following advice from the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, we are having discussions with the producer of the vaccine to see whether we can find a cost-effective way of doing this. The case that he raises, and many other heartbreaking cases, show how desirable it is to make progress on this issue.

Burma

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Excerpts

Thursday 13th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Malcolm Bruce]

That is a very good and fair question and we took a lot of evidence, ranging from people who felt the military would never let go to others who felt the pressures on Burma to open up were so intense that the reforms that have been started could not be reversed, although their progress will, I think, be uneven and bumpy. All I can say is that the authorities representing the military who we met looked to the Indonesian model as the way forward—in other words, a gradual move away from military control through the building of civilian capacity. But I guess that the day when the military is subservient to Parliament is a long way off.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) and I visited Burma in 2012. One of the Government Ministers there had been given the task of mediating between the various ethnic minority groups. I have a suspicion, however, that the disputes between some of the groups have got worse since then. Will my right hon. Friend tell us what he found in that respect?

[Sir Malcolm Bruce]

The Committee did not have the opportunity to visit some of the more disputed territories, either for security reasons or because access was not granted or there was insufficient time. We understood, however, that there was at least a ceasefire in place across the whole country, except in the north. That is good news. The bad news is that the process of turning that ceasefire into a proper process of moving towards civilian government and letting go from the centre has not begun. Indeed, there is plenty of evidence that the army has consolidated its position in exactly those provinces. That does not bode well, unless it starts to accommodate the other armed ethnic groups as part of the process of change. That is something that we think the UK Government could contribute to, so long as we have partners to work with.

Oral Answers to Questions

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Justine Greening]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise this incredibly important question, which we pursue through our Foreign Office with the Burmese regime. She will be aware that we have put in significant humanitarian support, particularly focused on internally displaced people in the region.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

Having just returned from the Nizip-2 Syrian refugee camp, where the conditions were quite good, I pay tribute to the Secretary of State’s Department for what it is doing there, but what is my right hon. Friend doing to make sure that some of the other camps in front-line countries are as good as that one?

[Justine Greening]

I thank my hon. Friend for the amazing trip that I know he had during the last couple of weeks to Turkey and the social action projects in the camp there. He is right to raise the issue of conditions in the camps. The UK works with UN agencies to ensure that they are as good as they possibly can be.

Overseas Aid (Private Sector Contracts)

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Justine Greening]

My hon. Friend is very well placed to ask that question, and she is entirely right. I think that we should be proud of the work of companies such as John Lewis and Waitrose, which not only makes business sense for them but makes a huge difference to the thousands of young people whom they are not only employing but “skilling up” in countries such as South Africa. We are delighted to be working with Waitrose. It is projects of that kind that have led me to announce today that I want to do more, and to do it in a more structured way.

Let me also thank my hon. Friend for the incredibly important work that she has been doing in raising awareness of female genital mutilation.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the public sector is often too large in the poorest countries in the world? Is not the best way in which her Department can help to release people from poverty sustainably to create a climate in which the private sector in those countries can flourish? Has that not been proved in countries such as Vietnam?

[Justine Greening]

My hon. Friend is right. Part of DFID’s work involves helping to create developing-country environments that are, as it were, “investable in”. That means pursuing the Prime Minister’s “golden thread” agenda in relation to the rule of law, the ability to set up contracts and the establishment of the right legal base. Those will all be key ingredients if we are to see business flourish in developing economies.

Syria (Humanitarian Response)

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Excerpts

Monday 4th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Justine Greening]

I do not believe that Russia made a significant contribution at the donor conference. The most important thing that we would like to achieve with Russia and China is a breakthrough that would enable us to have a UN Security Council resolution, which would be similar to the approach taken in Mali, where it was possible to take action as a result of a consensus across the international spectrum. That UN Security Council resolution cannot be passed at the moment, which, critically, makes it much more complex for us to be able to reach people inside Syria with humanitarian aid. It also makes it much more complex to start the political and diplomatic dialogue needed to reach a long-term settlement. That is what is needed and I am absolutely clear that, although we are providing humanitarian support, the UK has not ruled out any action. Ultimately, however, we want to press forward on a political and diplomatic route.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

I was at a conference over the weekend with both Turkish and Jordanian representatives, both of whom said, independently, that the international community could do more to help with the refugee problems in their respective countries. I say to my right hon. Friend that simple things, such as blankets to keep children warm, are needed now in the camps in Jordan. Could they not be delivered quicker bilaterally—that is, we give directly to the country rather than through the UN mechanism?

Sudan

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Excerpts

Thursday 28th April 2011 Westminster Hall

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister who will reply to the debate and I congratulate the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) on successfully petitioning the Backbench Business Committee for it to take place. With the events occurring in north Africa, the issue of Sudan has been driven from the news headlines. As it is likely to be the first democratic nation spawned by the world since Kosovo in 2008, and the Government are likely to take office on 9 July, this is an important and timely moment for the right hon. Gentleman to secure the debate.

I had the pleasure of visiting north and south Sudan at the time of the referendum. What was particularly pleasing was the absolute joy of the people in south Sudan who voted in the referendum. Their smiles and body language showed their delight at being given the opportunity to vote in a referendum that would secure them a new nation. Their aspirations were huge. The challenge that the international community now faces is to move quickly enough to meet those aspirations. Otherwise I think there will be real trouble.

The referendum and subsequent independence arose out of the comprehensive peace agreement of 2005. The conflict, with 2 million deaths, left the south in an undeveloped and blighted state, one of the poorest nations on earth. I could see that the referendum, though not perfect, was fair and well run, considering the conditions under which it operated, and it resulted in 98.83% of the voters backing the proposal. We now have to move quickly to meet the aspirations of those people. However, there are a number of obstacles facing the new Government, which have been mentioned in the debate. The right hon. Gentleman cited one of the biggest: the oil-rich state of Abyei. Abyei was awarded special administrative status in the comprehensive peace agreement. There was supposed to be a referendum on the region but it has not taken place, due to the difficulties and problems stated by the right hon. Gentleman. It is important that the issue is resolved. Only yesterday, President Bashir reiterated claims that the contested oil-rich region of Abyei belonged to the north. He threatened to wage war on the border state of south Kordofan if the newly independent state of south Sudan opted for confrontation there.

According to reports, a senior official from the President’s ruling National Congress party has warned that the north will revoke its recognition of south Sudan’s independence, if the latter claims ownership of Abyei in its constitution. In its draft constitution, south Sudan lays claim to Abyei, and that is due to be adopted after the region officially gains independence on 9 July. As can be seen, the issue of Abyei has the potential to derail the whole process. The latest proclamation from the President is particularly unwelcome. It is imperative that the international community facilitates discussions at the earliest possible opportunity to deal with one of the most pressing issues. Elections are due to take place in the north on 2 May. It may be that this matter is being used as an issue of politicking by the President in the north. If that is the case, it is utterly reprehensible, and I hope the President will act with restraint.

Others have mentioned the second real difficulty: oil revenues. The majority of Sudan’s wealth, north and south, comes from the oil fields, about 75% of which are sited in the south. The oil then flows through the pipeline to be distilled in the north, where all the distilleries are. It then goes on to be marketed from Port Sudan in the east of the country. Both sides have accepted an oil-sharing agreement over the past five years under which the net oil revenues of the oil produced in the south—I use my words with care—should be shared 50:50. That is where Abyei comes in; if it was to be sited in the north, the south would get none of the oil revenue. It is important that that agreement continues.

Nobody challenged this figure, but it is one of the most important facts that I gained from my visit: up to $12 billion is estimated to have been siphoned off from money that the north has given to the south over the last five years. Did that go on what is ostensibly one of the best-paid and best equipped armies in Africa, or has it merely disappeared? One of the biggest challenges faced by the international community in trying to set up a new nation in the south is the corruption. Aid assistance schemes for dealing with poverty throughout the world are normally short of funds, but potentially there is no shortage of funds here.

The third big obstacle is that of citizenship. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman might have concentrated a little more on it, but I realise that he could not deal with everything and I do not criticise him. There is a problem with southerners living in the north not being granted citizenship of either north or south. Indeed, will southerners be welcome to continue living in the north? I understand the north’s problem: if it gives the southerners citizenship, they will be able to participate in the political process in the north. The solution would appear to be to allow the southerners to continue living in the north in normal peaceful conditions but to grant them southern citizenship. There is a smaller but nevertheless significant problem the opposite way round. Northerners living in the south already have northern citizenship. These problems need to be resolved, but time is not on our side.

My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) made perhaps the most important point. That is the capacity of the new Government to operate. If there are not sufficient skilled people—this is exactly what we are finding in Afghanistan—it will be extremely difficult to get a sustainable and stable Government up and running. When I was in the south, that was cited as a real concern. There are enough people in the north who could help, and the international community will need to put in a great deal of training and infrastructure in that respect.

Others have said that the UK is particularly well respected in both the north and the south. That was one of the things that surprised me most. In a sense, I expected it in the south because of the comprehensive peace agreement, but I did not necessarily expect it in the north, particularly as the President is currently indicted for war crimes. Nevertheless, we should use that respect. After all, we are one of the three signatory nations to the comprehensive peace agreement, we are a permanent member of the Security Council and we are the ex-colonial power. We are therefore beholden—this is why today’s debate is so important—to provide every possible assistance, together with the United Nations, and do our utmost to ensure the success of the new nation of the south.

We need to address the future of the United Nations Mission in Sudan—UNMIS—which is due to end with the implementation of the comprehensive peace agreement. However, as I shall demonstrate to the House shortly, the security situation in the south cannot be taken for granted. We need to see some form of extension of UNMIS; we may need another name, but we need an international peace force in southern Sudan. The country will not suddenly become stable in July.

I was disturbed to hear that 55 people were killed in clashes last Saturday between the Sudan People’s Liberation Army—the SPLA—and a number of rebel militiamen. The southern Government are already battling with about seven different militia groups. As the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) said, 800 people have been killed and the UN estimates that 94,000 people have been forced from their homes since January. It is clear that the south remains a fragile state, and international support is critical in order to avert further conflict and humanitarian disaster.

As if that problem were not enough, as others have said there is the problem of the Lord’s Resistance Army. The LRA is particularly mobile. It is like a snake; if bits are cut off, it regenerates. Although it is only 200 or 400 strong at the moment, it operates almost freely between the Democratic Republic of the Congo, south Sudan, Chad and the Central African Republic. It has been considerably reduced in size since Kony, its leader, was indicted for war crimes, but it nevertheless has the ability to regenerate quickly. That transnational problem makes it important for the international community to provide help. Helicopters are needed, particularly to provide intelligence of the LRA’s activities.

Another source of conflict, which has already been mentioned, is the problem of Darfur. A referendum is about to be held on whether it should be run as two separate states—north and south—or one. I was advised by the Foreign Office not to meet the President, because he is indicted for war crimes, but I met the Vice-President and the President’s key adviser. They are most sensitive about Darfur, and are somewhat bitter that they are to lose a big chunk of the country. They are sensitive about it and do not want to cede further control. Darfur is particularly tricky in another respect, in that some of the southern militias are meddling in Darfur, as we heard earlier, and the north will blame the south for not keeping them under control. That has the potential to become a real problem.

When I visited the north, I met several key people. I was heartened to see that the north recognises that it is very much in its interest that the south succeeds as a nation. With a little international encouragement, the north will provide considerable help to get the new south nation on its feet.

Time is short, but I have a little shopping list. The United Nations needs to co-ordinate a plan to get the new nation off the ground. I have already mentioned the first and most important matter that needs to be dealt with—that of corruption. It must be eliminated. The oil revenue that the south will receive must go towards forming a new democratic nation for the benefit of those who live there. Despite the £12 billion—I repeat that it was £12 billion; I cannot repeat it enough—that has been given to the south over the last five years, there are only 20 km of metalled road, virtually no running water, no electricity, few hospitals and not enough schools. The infrastructure needs to be dealt with, and I believe that the international community can help, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) said, there is no reason why British construction companies should not be well and truly involved.

I asked the ordinary people of Sudan, “What is it that you want most?” This may be a lesson for the Department for International Development around the world, because it does not always concentrate enough on it; we can do without almost everything, but we cannot do without food and water. Most of the food that feeds the poor people in the south, which is one of the poorest nations on earth, comes from the north. The people of the south will have to wean themselves off that, and there is no reason, given that they live beside one of the biggest rivers in the world, why they should not grow a considerable amount of their own food. However, that requires investment and know-how.

I have listed corruption and food and I previously mentioned the problems of infrastructure. The fourth matter is education. It is a major problem in many underdeveloped countries. My trip to Sudan included visits to some of the referendum points, most of which were in schools. Although the schools were empty, most of them looked well maintained. They were in Juba, the capital. I was told that the levels of attainment were not great. Although the schools that we had seen were in Juba, there was a paucity of schools in rural areas.

[Mr Ellwood]

I hesitate to interrupt a powerful and authoritative speech. My hon. Friend speaks of education, and we would all agree on its importance. Last year, under the previous Government, DFID provided about £150 million, but only 4% of that went to education. Will my hon. Friend join me in seeking to have that figure increased?

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

Education is particularly important. Without it, one would find it difficult to get out of the present situation. We have not heard much about gender equality in today’s debate, but education is particularly important for women because they are often the ones who not only do most of the work in these developing countries but are denied their rights the most. Like my hon. Friend, I am keen to ensure that DFID pays great attention to education.

Let me divert for one sentence, Mr Walker. I have stuck to the script so far, but I would like to provide an example. Pratham, a charity in India, has got 20 million boys and girls into education, and that is one of the greatest things that any non-governmental organisation on earth can do.

As the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire mentioned, the fifth area that needs assistance, training and expertise is the security and judiciary services. The security services must be educated to understand that they are now operating under a democratic regime, which requires proper scrutiny and accountability. On the judicial side, it is important that proper police courts and prisons are set up so that the rule of law can be maintained and we do not let the southern state revert to a lawless, squabbling load of tribes.

Finally, the other issue that needs addressing is health. Even in Juba, there are virtually no hospitals. If the health system is virtually non-existent in the capital, there must be no trace of it in the rural areas. In a poor country such as this, the health indices are inevitably very low. This is an area in which the international community could rapidly produce some sort of rudimentary health delivery system and start to meet the aspirations of the people.

We need to get the whole issue of democracy up and running. At the moment, 94% of the MPs come from the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement and the other 4% come from a breakaway part of the SPLM. We must educate those MPs to understand the need for opposition parties. I sometimes wish that we did not need opposition parties here. Nevertheless, we cannot have a proper democracy without opposition parties. The essential job of the Opposition is to hold the Government to account.

[Stephen Pound]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

The hon. Gentleman will now make a frivolous remark. I will give way if he is not making a frivolous intervention.

[Stephen Pound]

If all Members of Parliament were as emollient and hypnotic as the hon. Gentleman, there would be no need for dissent or different parties, because we would be as one under his intellectual sunshine.

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[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I am not sure whether or not that was a backhanded punch. I suspect that it was a punch from the blind side.

The international community faces a really important challenge. If it meets it, it could make a significant difference. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) said, Sudan has historically been a war-torn country. If we were able to bring about a peaceful democratic future and, at the same time, put in the infrastructure and lift the levels of poverty in this poorest of countries, it would be a huge prize for which the international community could take great credit.

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[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley). I want to tell him that in Uganda, which is just to the south of Sudan, the Madhvani family have now built their fifth tractor factory. As the hon. Gentleman will know, that family were expelled from Uganda back in 1973, and they are now looking to build a tractor factory further to the north.

It was a pleasure to hear from the hon. Gentleman. I think that we heard today the first trumpet call for the twinning of Portslade with Juba. Bearing in mind the traditional tensions that exist between east and west in Hove and Brighton, perhaps there is an appropriate linkage to which he can bring his expertise to bear. It is good for us to hear about the contribution that the Sudanese community makes in our country.

It was a genuine pleasure—I mean that sincerely—to sit at the feet of the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) and hear, as ever, his master class. He may be biologically related to a former Speaker of the House, but he seems to have within him the blood of Herodotus, although I must say that even Herodotus might have cavilled at the idea of the self-regenerating serpent. I believe that earthworms have that ability and that on occasion, if they are in a good mood, slow-worms can manage it, but the sinuous, slippery serpent is a creature that I have never yet observed regenerating itself—but who knows? I must say that if anyone can enlighten us, it is the hon. Gentleman. I recall his contribution during a speech made by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), who had suggested that the then Prime Minister, Mr Blair, should send his Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), to Sudan because of what had happened the last time a “Gordon” had visited Khartoum. The hon. Member for The Cotswolds had to explain to a number of the younger Members exactly what that reference meant. It is a pleasure to hear from him, especially when he is imparting such in-depth knowledge.

The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) has given us yet another expression to go away and cogitate on: the “difficult to resolve” list. Many a night we must sit at home and think about the ever-extending, ever-longer “difficult to resolve” list. In the context of this afternoon’s debate, what is particularly difficult to resolve—it has been referred to by virtually all speakers—is the issue of the generation of oil in the south of Sudan, its transmission to Port Sudan and its onward transmission. What the hon. Lady did not say, albeit probably out of generosity and kindness, is that there is a fair degree of empirical evidence that not all the value of that oil is reaching those from whose wells the oil is produced.

That is why the role of NGOs is important, and particularly CAFOD, which works so well and strongly in the region. What we must have in Sudan is not only people from northern Europe saying, “This is how you should do it; this is how we would do it; and this is how we suggest you should do it,” but people on the ground in villages in those parts of the country that are not normally visited. They must not only give the example of good governance, but witness, observe and report back, and reveal the reality of what is going on in those areas. That is absolutely crucial.

There is a fledgling nation—a new nation—as we have been told. We all wish that new nation Godspeed, but a new nation needs help. A baby cannot live by itself for quite a few years. It needs to be supported and helped, so we have to give our support.

The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) delighted us all with a marvellous image of him meeting a group of senior southern Sudanese and trying to persuade them that he represented the British Government. It is hardly surprising that they thought he was French. For a moment, I wondered whether they suspected, “Is this the Polish mission?” Nevertheless, the fact that he has gone to the region so many times is very much to his credit.

Having said that, the hon. Gentleman’s words about Clare Short, the former Secretary of State for International Development, should not pass without comment. She made a specific point of saying that the Department for International Development was not an example of trade following the flag. She said that the Department was not something that existed to act as a stimulus for British trade, and that it was not a sort of export credits guarantee scheme, nor a trade investment body. She said that it was specifically supposed to be a “clean hands” organisation. Many times I went to see her in her office at DFID and she always used the same expression: “My people were the colonised, not the colonisers”. When I used to beg her to do a bit more about tea planting in Sri Lanka and northern India, she said, “No, what we want to do is to help people, in many cases without them even knowing that we are helping them.” That may be a tad naive in terms of realpolitik, but we can imagine what she was trying to do. The alternative is the Chinese approach, when everyone knows that the action being taken is not philanthropy, generosity of spirit or a case of somebody waking up in Beijing and saying, “Let us extend the glorious hegemony of Chinese industrial growth to those who need it the most.” We all know—the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham certainly knows—that there is rather more to it than that.

We do not get much good news in the world. It does seem to be that all around us the gloom gathers, but there is some good news in southern Sudan.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

Before we move off that point about aid, when DFID promotes a project, and particularly an infrastructure project, it is right that it should promote the fact that the project is British. When I have been around the world, I have seen the wretched European Union signs showing that EU aid has been given, and in little tiny letters it says “and DFID”—the words are so small that they can hardly be read. Everybody then thinks that the project is an EU project and nobody has any idea that it is a British DFID project. We should proclaim our generosity around the world. That is not a political point; I just think that we should do that.

[Stephen Pound]

That would be rather a good subject for another debate. I rather delight to see in Donegal signs saying that a road was built by the European Union. That is absolutely wonderful. It cheers me up no end, both as a passionate pro-European and as someone with a large number of relatives in Donegal.

I would have thought that what we are doing in this country is not a rerunning of the role of the Royal Navy in the 19th century. This process is not about a direct linkage between the wealth of this nation and future trading opportunities. By all means, badge those projects that we support, as we already do, particularly in India and in the largest recipient of DFID aid, which is a country right next to southern Sudan. We already badge those projects, but let that not be all there is to it. Let us try to bring a little Christian generosity and say that it is more important that we give the gift than sign the card.

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[Stephen Pound]

I entirely take on board your strictures, Mr Walker.

One difficulty is that Britain has not had entirely clean hands over a long timeline. Britain is inextricably linked with the past, and it is a great tragedy that the shadow of the past lies over us. Many would say that that is all the more reason to take such action, but let us never forget that the great poet of empire coined an expression that became part of the common currency when he said:

“ere’s to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your ‘ome in the Soudan;

You’re a pore benighted ‘eathen but a first-class fightin’ man”.

That typified people’s attitude to what was then Sudan and Egypt, which was going to be not just the biggest country in Africa, but by far the biggest.

I am acutely aware, Mr Walker, that we are here to talk about a specific subject, so I shall return to what we can do in Sudan.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

rose—

[Stephen Pound]

Before I do so, I give way to the hon. Gentleman.

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[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

On the aid that we might give to Sudan, it is worth noting in passing that the United States Agency for International Development, which is the largest aid agency in the world, is much more clever than DFID at making sure that its contracts go to US businesses.

[Stephen Pound]

Like many hon. Members, I have seen great sacks of grain and bales of bottled water being delivered to places, covered in stars and stripes. I support the emotion that drives that, but I am slightly worried about badging to such an extent. By and large, this should be about global humanity rather than national self-interest. If that is absurdly naive, so is CAFOD, which is probably one reason why my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) and I have such sympathy with and respect for its work.

One problem that we currently face is the Lord’s Resistance Army. It is an issue that simply cannot go away. As we know, it is not just a southern Sudanese issue; it affects also the Central African Republic and the DRC. It is a completely out-of-control, non-hierarchical militia, in many cases staffed by forced soldiers—often child conscripts—that commits the foulest and most appalling crimes. There has to be a way to do the two things that are necessary. The first is to stop the supply of child soldiers—those brutalised conscripted children—into this appalling group. I am not sure what to call it—we cannot use the word “army”—but it is almost a heavily armed mob. The second thing is to divert the energy from that force and to persuade people that there is sufficient safety in their home areas for them to return, and that they do not always have to sleep with an AK47 under their pillow. That will be incredibly difficult.

I have mentioned CAFOD, and I do not want to embarrass my friends there too much. However, in the western equatorial state, about 100,000 people are displaced—just imagine that number of people, in a country the size of Britain. It is a vast number, and the CAFOD people are doing an immensely good job, certainly in the diocese of Tombura Yambio, where most of them are working. We must support that work.

Although there is an interesting debate about the honesty of individual nations when it comes to assisting, advising, helping and supporting, I think that we would all agree that even the noblest nation sometimes does not have the same reputation as some of the best NGOs. When I see what the NGOs have achieved on the global scale, I often feel that their work is more sustainable and more widely respected. I profoundly hope that we can continue the beyond-symbiotic relationship that exists between DFID and the various NGOs—CAFOD, Caritas Internationalis, Christian Aid and many others—because that seems to be the way forward.

Above all, we have a new nation taking the first step of its life, blinking in the sunlight. In a couple of months, this new nation will take its first tottering steps and, if it appears to be falling, we will have to be there to offer a hand, to offer support, to offer succour, and to offer refreshment, advice and assistance. Whether that is through DFID or CAFOD, I know not, but I profoundly hope that it comes from the heart.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr O'Brien]

The hon. Gentleman is right. Southern Sudan represents one of the cradles where tropical diseases are most virulent and are most likely to sustain over our lifetimes. If one were to pick the three areas where it would be difficult to rid the world of malaria and other tropical diseases, they would be parts of the DRC, parts of Nigeria and southern Sudan. There is, therefore, an opportunity to make an appreciable difference and contribute significantly to the millennium development goals. That is why the focus on south Sudan, irrespective of the fact that it fits very well with our intention to put money behind conflict states and fragile states, will have a major multiplier and leverage effect.

Of course, NGOs and donor agencies will be instrumental in ensuring that there is sustained, predictable programme money to help local health systems, as they grow, to develop malaria control and malaria elimination opportunities. Equally, it will be important to recognise that, with a very low capacity in southern Sudan, it will be many years before the population will not be afflicted by malaria. A little like Ethiopia, southern Sudan is prone to epidemics of malaria simply because of the nature of the vector. In other parts, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa, malaria is more endemic and persistent across all the seasons. It is easier to persuade people to use nets all the time, whereas it is more difficult to persuade people to use the preventative method of a net when there are epidemics, because very often they do not get the net up before the epidemic has already taken hold. Without getting too diverted on malaria, about which I have been known to be able to wax lyrical—

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, because he is making a very useful speech. He has said what he would like to happen in Sudan. Can he confirm whether the Department for International Development is in discussions with United Nations agencies to produce a plan of precisely which country’s aid agency will do what and which NGO will do what, so that there are not any overlaps, but equally, so that there are not any underlaps in achieving the very admirable aims that he has just outlined?

[Mr O'Brien]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful and important point. I was going to come on to his list, which was a shopping list rather than a too-difficult-to-do list, a bit later. He is right. There needs to be a clear delineation of who is meant to be doing what in order to achieve a co-ordinated and comprehensive approach, so that the benefits can feed off each other. Often in aid delivery, there has been a need to think about how to put the inputs in, rather than recognising what combined results we want at the end. The reason why his point is well-made is that, at a democratic and governance level—but also at the level of delivering good developmental aid—that is what might be termed as the post-CPA framework. Where will the governance levers be? Is it going to be a question just of donor agencies, NGOs and the UN talking about south Sudan, or is it going to be a question of south Sudan talking to them about how we all helped to contribute to their initiative, to deliver it on the ground and to embed it?

It is fair to say that it is not yet clear what form the post-CPA framework will take, but the main objective is to agree as much as possible—as was identified in the debate—where all the areas of difference lie. While they sit there, whether it is Abyei or the three areas, there remains the tension that does not allow the space through which that kind of co-ordinated consensual approach can take place. We are absolutely determined to do our best to foster that resolution of the differences, because we will get effectiveness and value for money, which is part of the transparency answer, only providing we have that consensual opportunity. While there is a dispute, people will seek to gain an edge off the other and that is where we get disunity. I am glad to have the opportunity to underscore that point, which is why it is so important that we agree as much as possible before the CPA expires on 9 July. That will obviously change the dynamics dramatically.

We are working with Thabo Mbeki and his high-level panel on precisely that. It is more likely to be achieved—a point that I think was hinted at by the opening speaker—if this is not seen to be a somewhat old-style solution of the international community talking about another country, and particularly a new country, but the family of African countries coming together themselves to produce something that might be regarded as an African solution. That is much more important, which is why Thabo Mbeki and his high-level panel are important and crucial to the process. We are encouraging all those parties to maintain as much momentum as possible in advance. I shall come back briefly to some of those issues.

I was talking about the financial commitment and the results that we are hoping to achieve. That was also partly in answer to the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith, who wanted to know that we were in it for a sustainable, predictable period so that people could plan with some confidence. The financial commitment to Sudan represents a large amount of British taxpayers’ money. It is a priority for us to ensure that it is spent well, represents, of course, good value for money, and brings real benefit in terms of building peace and delivering assistance to those affected by conflict and extreme poverty. We are determined to ensure that our aid reaches the people who need it most. We do not give any money directly—let us be absolutely clear—to the Governments in Khartoum or Juba. All our funds are routed through NGOs, private sector firms and multilateral agencies, which have robust financial management systems in place. That is part of the due diligence and the tendering process and the real, tough hurdles that they have to get across. We require a detailed narrative and financial reports from all our partners, as well as audited statements. DFID staff also conduct regular monitoring of progress and formal annual reviews in line with our own project management procedures.

The UK is committed to its relations with north and south Sudan. We recognise that sustainable peace in Sudan can only be delivered by addressing the root causes of conflict, and we continue to urge the north and the south to take the steps needed to resolve the outstanding issues from the comprehensive peace agreement by 9 July. Those include the issues of Abyei, border demarcation—as was discussed and raised by a number of contributors to the debate—and arrangements for the conclusion of the inclusive popular consultations in Blue Nile and South Kordofan. It was interesting to note that while Blue Nile is moving ahead at a reasonable step, South Kordofan is giving more cause for concern. Of course, we come to the issues of distribution of oil wealth and citizenship, both subjects that need to be resolved. We will continue to press for full implementation of the CPA ahead of its conclusion in July, and for agreement on wider arrangements that have to be equitable and just between the north and south.

I will come on to some of the other issues in a moment, but on the issue of Abyei, in addition to Thabo Mbeki and his high-level panel, who seek to broker these solutions, we welcome the ruling of the Permanent Court of Arbitration and the way in which that may help to support the outcome. That is an important point to put on the record.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr O'Brien]

People might need to dash away, but I shall cover a few of the points.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East and others asked about the Lord’s Resistance Army. The LRA, having been driven out of northern Uganda, is now in pockets throughout the Central African Republic, the borders of south Sudan and the edges of parts of Uganda, even tilting into southern Darfur. We all abhor the whole essence of that abominable organisation, with its child soldiers and the mayhem it has caused over many years, but we are also concerned whether it might destabilise progress for south Sudan.

We are determined that the LRA should not represent such a factor by urging the regional Governments and peacekeeping forces—we have the two UN forces—to co-ordinate closely their efforts in combating the LRA. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds about how quickly it can regenerate was well made and is well known among the experts. One of the best things to do, as part of our response, is to engage with the demobilisation of LRA combatants. We should offer the hope of such engagement to those young people.

I visited Gulu recently, too, but I was there some four years ago in another guise, when I met some former LRA child soldiers who have been converted. Some of them have visited the DFID offices in London. It is important to recognise that we must take such positive and constructive steps as well as simply maintaining our vigilance and, where we find the LRA, rooting it out of areas in which it might destabilise neighbouring countries.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

On the LRA, I would like to mention intelligence specifically. The LRA leadership has particularly good intelligence about the location of the armies that they are combating, and how quickly they can move. It is therefore necessary to be able to outpace it, which requires those regional forces to have more helicopters. Helicopters and intelligence about the LRA’s activities are key to defeating it.

[Mr O'Brien]

I know that and, when I have travelled in some difficult conflict areas such as the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo, helicopter is the only mode of transport capable of being used by the UN for any purpose, so my hon. Friend’s point is extremely well made. I shall look into access to such genuinely vigilant machinery from the sky. If it is not available, I shall ask some more questions and perhaps reassure him at a later date.

Another point, made not least by my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham, was about trade. I emphasise that as far as DFID is concerned, for the past 11 years and at least since the International Development Act 2002, by law there can be no link between our aid—our overseas development aid spend—and British trade. That is the law, and what we must conform to. However, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office can make trade an explicit element of foreign policy, which it has now done as one of the new Foreign Secretary’s decisions. Trade, therefore, is now central to every aspect of our overseas engagement.

I confirm from discussions with my fellow Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with responsibility for Africa, my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), that he has been looking explicitly for trade opportunities in both southern and northern Sudan. His visit received some publicity, but it was perfectly understood that the trade side was vital, and we have a long-standing trade relationship. Trade is an essential element in promoting the wealth-creation side of those economies. There is a clear distinction between what is done by DFID as part of programmes for ODA spend and what is done for trade by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and, indeed, by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

What is important and new is the DFID policy decided on over the past year, which is to include specifically, as a complete pillar of work, private sector development and the encouragement of the private sector and of trade opportunities in a context of confidence that enables people to be entrepreneurial, to have access to finance, to be above micro-finance, to have the ability to take a risk and to have foreign direct investment more encouraged because of greater security from an independent judicial system or in repatriation of dividends. Those are all things that people around board tables who take risks with money borrowed from banks need, so that they will be prepared to engage, whether in a tractor factory, a spares supply chain, some kind of commodity or agricultural processing.

Such discussions with countries might often be an FCO matter—which countries might we invest in, and which companies might do it—but it will also be a DFID matter, for a DFID Minister to decide. Such a policy is part of the discussions that my ministerial colleagues in DFID and I have had. For instance, a country might be prepared to make adjustments to its land law, so that those who acquired land could be confident that it was not going to be confiscated from them. That element would create confidence for investors, who would then know that they had collateral to offer to a bank, so that they could invest further, develop markets and make demands about the infrastructure that ought to be put in place in order for them to get goods to market. We have clear dividing lines but, at the same time, they are part of a co-ordinated whole. We can satisfy, quite rightly, the idea of a strong recognition of what is development and what is trade.

Allied to that was the question of whether we should badge our aid more explicitly. Hon. Members will be aware that, whether in Sudan or elsewhere in Africa, DFID has generated a strong brand as a trusted deliverer of development benefit and results. DFID has a brand, and one of the issues we face in trying to change that is that we might be in danger of taking something away, because DFID is currently respected. Importantly, we are working very hard, and hon. Members here will see from the letterhead when I write to each and every one of them that it refers prominently to “UKaid”—

Oral Answers to Questions

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mitchell]

The hon. Gentleman rightly recognises one of the challenges for South Sudan. There is an array of challenges, on all of which Britain and the international community will seek to assist Salva Kiir and his new Government. I should make it clear to the hon. Gentleman that that country’s oil revenue gives it the opportunity between now and 2015 to make more progress on all these millennium development goals than any other country on earth. Britain will be playing its full part in trying to bring that about.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

At a meeting yesterday, a former Foreign Secretary of Sudan said that when the new Government take over in July the desperate need will be for government advice and training, as well as infrastructure. What plans do my right hon. Friend and his Department have to provide that advice and training?

[Mr Mitchell]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: supporting democratic and accountable government will be at the heart of what we are trying to do in South Sudan. When I was in Juba to open the new British Government office there before Christmas, I was able to see some direct technical assistance that Britain is giving. As he says, we will need more of that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Excerpts

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr O'Brien]

The hon. Gentleman makes an informed point. One way of ensuring that the global fund, which scores well on its effectiveness, gets even better is to ensure that when there are conflicts in the country co-ordinating mechanisms, they are addressed. The co-infection of HIV and TB is an increasingly well understood area of research and practice, and that understanding is shaping the programmes through the multilateral aid review, and will therefore inform those programmes going forward.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend tell the House what his Department is doing to support the Glion call to action, whereby consensus has been reached on the importance of family planning in preventing the spread of HIV, particularly maternal transmission from mother to child?

[Mr O'Brien]

My hon. Friend makes the vital point that family planning is at the heart of ensuring that we prevent the transmission of these diseases. I assure him that we are putting women’s and children’s health at the core of our international development agenda, and will contribute to saving the lives of at least 50,000 women and 250,000 babies, and to providing 10 million more couples with access to family planning.