Sudan

Stephen Pound Excerpts

Thursday 28th April 2011 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

I, too, convey my thanks to the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) for securing this debate. During the previous Parliament, I visited Sudan together with Michael Howard and David Steel, both now in the House of Lords. One of the most moving and emotional things that I saw during the course of the previous Parliament was when I spent two days walking through the camps in Darfur and meeting the refugees. I talked to them and saw their living conditions, heard what they and their families had been through and saw the tremendous fear, poverty and appalling brutality that those people had faced for such a long time. At the time, as we see in Hansard, many speeches were made about our concern for the situation in Darfur, yet we seemed unable to influence the situation, much to the concern of many hon. Members.

While my colleagues and I were in Darfur, we spoke with the African Union soldiers who were trying to bring some form of policing to the area, and they expressed concerns about the Sudanese authorities’ intransigent obstruction of their efforts properly and effectively to supervise things. We took those concerns directly to President Omar al-Bashir when we met him at his presidential palace in Khartoum, and despite all my concerns about what had been happening in Darfur, I was extremely pleased by our meeting. I wish that hon. Members could have seen the conviction and effectiveness with which Michael Howard and David Steel negotiated with President Omar al-Bashir during our meeting. I was extremely pleased that changes were subsequently made, and African Union helicopter flights were allowed at night-time to protect innocent civilians.

On a note of optimism, I am pleased at how the referendum has gone. Given all the problems that the country has suffered over such a long period, it is quite a paradigm shift for it to go through the referendum process. That is something to be encouraged and to be grateful for. I met the Sudanese ambassador before the referendum, and he was sure that the country would split. There was a consensus about that; even before the referendum, everybody realised there was a certain inevitability about the country splitting. Of course, this is an extremely controversial issue, as we have heard from colleagues, and terrible difficulties are involved in any divorce. However, the country has somehow managed to go through the referendum process in a relatively peaceful and stable way, and I very much hope that the Minister will acknowledge the progress that has been made.

When I was in Khartoum, I realised that parts of it are like downtown Beijing because of the tremendous influence of the Chinese. I have never seen so much Chinese lettering anywhere in the world, apart from in China. China is all over the country, with huge investments and a massive influence on the Government. It is a pity that there is so much Chinese influence and so little direct British influence. Many politicians told me that all the products in Sudan were British-made in the ’50s and ’60s; everything was made in Britain and then exported to Sudan. Now, there are hardly any British products in Sudan; all the products are Chinese imports.

The reason I have come here is to ask the Minister to work with British business to help expand trade with Sudan. I understand that DFID is all about international aid and assistance, but there must be some interaction and co-operation with British industry to help British business export to Sudan and send people there to assist in the country’s construction. There should be some form of co-operation and engagement between DFID and British business.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

Before the hon. Gentleman moves on from the extremely pertinent question of Chinese influence, which can be seen not only in southern Sudan, but in many other places, will he share with us his view of what lies behind that activity? What is motivating this extraordinarily frenetic expansion, which is originating in China and flourishing in Africa?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

If we look at the map of Africa, we see that the greatest Chinese investment is primarily where the oil reserves are. The hon. Gentleman will recognise that the Chinese are keen to invest. There is huge construction of bridges, railways and other infrastructure to extract the minerals and oil that China so desperately needs for its economy.

I have had many meetings with the Sudanese ambassador to the UK at his embassy, and I pay tribute to him, because he is a good and diligent representative of his country. I have taken British businesses to see him, and he keeps telling me, “Sudan is open for business with the UK. We are desperate”—to return to the point made by the hon. Gentleman—“to detach ourselves from our over-dependence on China. We need to change our economy’s relationships to make sure we interact more with countries in Europe and particularly with the UK.” Many Sudanese people see the UK in an extremely positive way, and they have a long-standing friendship and relationship with us.

This is the first time I have heard of the cancellation of the £1 billion debt owed to Britain, which the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill highlighted. He asked the Minister to clarify when that debt will be cancelled, and I, too, am very much looking forward to hearing the answer. However, this should not just be a matter of saying, “Oh well, let’s cancel £1 billion of debt,” and we must remember that we are talking about British taxpayers’ money. Our country is heavily indebted, and various facilities are being closed in our constituencies, so £1 billion is a huge amount of taxpayers’ money to think of simply cancelling.

Rather than just cancelling £1 billion of debt, therefore, I suggest that we negotiate with the Sudanese. We should say that we will cancel a proportion of the debt in exchange for their hiring the services of British manufacturing consultancies or companies, which would go to their country to educate their people, set up production and help them set up factories. There must be a quid pro quo interaction between the British Government and Sudan. We should not simply cancel the debt, but cancel some of it and say that we want the Sudanese to use the money to hire the services of British companies.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point, but whether that borrowing was reckless or not, we all take out mortgages, and we normally all have to pay off the debt. Regrettably, some of my constituents have taken out loans that they cannot afford, and I have tried to help them to somehow negotiate their way through those loans. That is difficult, but a contract has been signed. We should show good will to the Sudanese by cancelling some of the debt, but I do not think the right hon. Gentleman would object to our also encouraging them to use some of the resources that would be freed up when they no longer have to pay us interest to engage the services of British engineering and manufacturing consultants in the development and restructuring of their country.

[Stephen Pound]

I do not want to trespass too much on the hon. Gentleman’s generosity of spirit, but, to take up his analogy, nobody would object to paying a mortgage if they got a house out of it. When it comes to debt relief in Africa, however, it is as if the mayor of the town got the house, and the people had to pay the mortgage; that is a much more accurate description. I hope, therefore, that we can unite in praise of the Government, the Minister and DFID for apparently intending to do precisely what my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) suggested by writing the debt off.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I do not want to come across as a Scrooge, and I know how generous the hon. Gentleman is, but a lot of British companies would like to engage and trade with Sudan and do not know how to. DFID has a huge role to play in advertising the opportunities and what is happening in a country, and in ensuring that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and British commerce and industry are engaged in helping it to create the prosperity that we desperately need. Sudan will be prosperous long term only through trade, not through aid, as I hope the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge. Sudan is able to become a very wealthy country through increased trade with the UK and to not always be over-dependent on aid.

I served briefly on the Select Committee on International Development in the previous Parliament. We visited many countries in Africa, and one of those visits was to a tiny village on the Ethiopian-Kenyan border. The workers from the non-governmental organisation that had been hired were all French speakers and all the machinery—everything—was Chinese or Japanese. I went to the village to meet the village elders, who said to me, “You know, Mr Kawczynski, we’re very grateful to you and the French Government for providing all this wonderful help for our village.” I said, “We’re not French, we’re British”. They replied, “Oh, what’s Britain got to do with it?” So stripped had DFID become of the British brand—deliberately stripped by Clare Short—that, in many circumstances around the world, there was no linkage at all between the UK and British taxpayers and the good work happening on the ground.

That was a deliberate policy by Clare Short following the scandalous Pergau dam incident, which we all recall, but it went too far. I am very proud and satisfied that British taxpayers are helping the poorest around the world. It is something for which we should all be thankful, but we should not flinch from waving the British flag at the same time and showing how important it is to promote the UK. Can the Minister assure me today that he is engaged directly in helping British commerce to work with Sudan to help to ensure its future prosperity?

--- Later in debate ---

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

Education is particularly important. Without it, one would find it difficult to get out of the present situation. We have not heard much about gender equality in today’s debate, but education is particularly important for women because they are often the ones who not only do most of the work in these developing countries but are denied their rights the most. Like my hon. Friend, I am keen to ensure that DFID pays great attention to education.

Let me divert for one sentence, Mr Walker. I have stuck to the script so far, but I would like to provide an example. Pratham, a charity in India, has got 20 million boys and girls into education, and that is one of the greatest things that any non-governmental organisation on earth can do.

As the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire mentioned, the fifth area that needs assistance, training and expertise is the security and judiciary services. The security services must be educated to understand that they are now operating under a democratic regime, which requires proper scrutiny and accountability. On the judicial side, it is important that proper police courts and prisons are set up so that the rule of law can be maintained and we do not let the southern state revert to a lawless, squabbling load of tribes.

Finally, the other issue that needs addressing is health. Even in Juba, there are virtually no hospitals. If the health system is virtually non-existent in the capital, there must be no trace of it in the rural areas. In a poor country such as this, the health indices are inevitably very low. This is an area in which the international community could rapidly produce some sort of rudimentary health delivery system and start to meet the aspirations of the people.

We need to get the whole issue of democracy up and running. At the moment, 94% of the MPs come from the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement and the other 4% come from a breakaway part of the SPLM. We must educate those MPs to understand the need for opposition parties. I sometimes wish that we did not need opposition parties here. Nevertheless, we cannot have a proper democracy without opposition parties. The essential job of the Opposition is to hold the Government to account.

[Stephen Pound]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

The hon. Gentleman will now make a frivolous remark. I will give way if he is not making a frivolous intervention.

[Stephen Pound]

If all Members of Parliament were as emollient and hypnotic as the hon. Gentleman, there would be no need for dissent or different parties, because we would be as one under his intellectual sunshine.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley). I want to tell him that in Uganda, which is just to the south of Sudan, the Madhvani family have now built their fifth tractor factory. As the hon. Gentleman will know, that family were expelled from Uganda back in 1973, and they are now looking to build a tractor factory further to the north.

It was a pleasure to hear from the hon. Gentleman. I think that we heard today the first trumpet call for the twinning of Portslade with Juba. Bearing in mind the traditional tensions that exist between east and west in Hove and Brighton, perhaps there is an appropriate linkage to which he can bring his expertise to bear. It is good for us to hear about the contribution that the Sudanese community makes in our country.

It was a genuine pleasure—I mean that sincerely—to sit at the feet of the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) and hear, as ever, his master class. He may be biologically related to a former Speaker of the House, but he seems to have within him the blood of Herodotus, although I must say that even Herodotus might have cavilled at the idea of the self-regenerating serpent. I believe that earthworms have that ability and that on occasion, if they are in a good mood, slow-worms can manage it, but the sinuous, slippery serpent is a creature that I have never yet observed regenerating itself—but who knows? I must say that if anyone can enlighten us, it is the hon. Gentleman. I recall his contribution during a speech made by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), who had suggested that the then Prime Minister, Mr Blair, should send his Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), to Sudan because of what had happened the last time a “Gordon” had visited Khartoum. The hon. Member for The Cotswolds had to explain to a number of the younger Members exactly what that reference meant. It is a pleasure to hear from him, especially when he is imparting such in-depth knowledge.

The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) has given us yet another expression to go away and cogitate on: the “difficult to resolve” list. Many a night we must sit at home and think about the ever-extending, ever-longer “difficult to resolve” list. In the context of this afternoon’s debate, what is particularly difficult to resolve—it has been referred to by virtually all speakers—is the issue of the generation of oil in the south of Sudan, its transmission to Port Sudan and its onward transmission. What the hon. Lady did not say, albeit probably out of generosity and kindness, is that there is a fair degree of empirical evidence that not all the value of that oil is reaching those from whose wells the oil is produced.

That is why the role of NGOs is important, and particularly CAFOD, which works so well and strongly in the region. What we must have in Sudan is not only people from northern Europe saying, “This is how you should do it; this is how we would do it; and this is how we suggest you should do it,” but people on the ground in villages in those parts of the country that are not normally visited. They must not only give the example of good governance, but witness, observe and report back, and reveal the reality of what is going on in those areas. That is absolutely crucial.

There is a fledgling nation—a new nation—as we have been told. We all wish that new nation Godspeed, but a new nation needs help. A baby cannot live by itself for quite a few years. It needs to be supported and helped, so we have to give our support.

The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) delighted us all with a marvellous image of him meeting a group of senior southern Sudanese and trying to persuade them that he represented the British Government. It is hardly surprising that they thought he was French. For a moment, I wondered whether they suspected, “Is this the Polish mission?” Nevertheless, the fact that he has gone to the region so many times is very much to his credit.

Having said that, the hon. Gentleman’s words about Clare Short, the former Secretary of State for International Development, should not pass without comment. She made a specific point of saying that the Department for International Development was not an example of trade following the flag. She said that the Department was not something that existed to act as a stimulus for British trade, and that it was not a sort of export credits guarantee scheme, nor a trade investment body. She said that it was specifically supposed to be a “clean hands” organisation. Many times I went to see her in her office at DFID and she always used the same expression: “My people were the colonised, not the colonisers”. When I used to beg her to do a bit more about tea planting in Sri Lanka and northern India, she said, “No, what we want to do is to help people, in many cases without them even knowing that we are helping them.” That may be a tad naive in terms of realpolitik, but we can imagine what she was trying to do. The alternative is the Chinese approach, when everyone knows that the action being taken is not philanthropy, generosity of spirit or a case of somebody waking up in Beijing and saying, “Let us extend the glorious hegemony of Chinese industrial growth to those who need it the most.” We all know—the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham certainly knows—that there is rather more to it than that.

We do not get much good news in the world. It does seem to be that all around us the gloom gathers, but there is some good news in southern Sudan.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

Before we move off that point about aid, when DFID promotes a project, and particularly an infrastructure project, it is right that it should promote the fact that the project is British. When I have been around the world, I have seen the wretched European Union signs showing that EU aid has been given, and in little tiny letters it says “and DFID”—the words are so small that they can hardly be read. Everybody then thinks that the project is an EU project and nobody has any idea that it is a British DFID project. We should proclaim our generosity around the world. That is not a political point; I just think that we should do that.

[Stephen Pound]

That would be rather a good subject for another debate. I rather delight to see in Donegal signs saying that a road was built by the European Union. That is absolutely wonderful. It cheers me up no end, both as a passionate pro-European and as someone with a large number of relatives in Donegal.

I would have thought that what we are doing in this country is not a rerunning of the role of the Royal Navy in the 19th century. This process is not about a direct linkage between the wealth of this nation and future trading opportunities. By all means, badge those projects that we support, as we already do, particularly in India and in the largest recipient of DFID aid, which is a country right next to southern Sudan. We already badge those projects, but let that not be all there is to it. Let us try to bring a little Christian generosity and say that it is more important that we give the gift than sign the card.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that more of the products that DFID sends abroad—water sanitation items and other things to help people—should be British, even if they are slightly more expensive than the alternatives? DFID should source more British products than it currently does.

[Stephen Pound]

My experience of DFID projects—admittedly, more in central and south America than in Africa—is that the single most important issue is sustainability, not where a product comes from. Many hydraulic kits for wells that have been provided from this country, with the best will in the world, simply do not last because they cannot be repaired and maintained because the parts cannot be sourced locally. That is the tragedy. Of course, if there is a hydraulic water raising factory in the hon. Gentleman’s Shrewsbury and Atcham constituency—there might well be, and if there is not, I am sure that there will be in a couple of weeks—let it cover the globe with its marvellous equipment, but let us also train local people to provide engineering resources so that the equipment can be maintained. We used to say that when the donkeys stop nodding in the oil fields, it takes a great deal to get them nodding again.

[Mr Ellwood]

rose—

[Mr Ellwood]

I do not wish to test the line that you have just given, Mr Walker, but we are also talking about what aid or support Britain can give, and the style of that support is important and has been mentioned at least a couple of times. DFID has had a policy of doing things on the quiet. The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) makes the significant point that it is important to get the aid there in the first place, but I encourage the Minister to give us an update on where we stand on promoting the fact that Britain is helping so that not only the locals, but the domestic audience, can see where the money is going. We need to enhance our reputation with countries so that we receive the benefits of further deals in industry and commerce that will come about as a result of the stronger relationships we have due to the appreciation that the help is British.

[Stephen Pound]

I entirely take on board your strictures, Mr Walker.

One difficulty is that Britain has not had entirely clean hands over a long timeline. Britain is inextricably linked with the past, and it is a great tragedy that the shadow of the past lies over us. Many would say that that is all the more reason to take such action, but let us never forget that the great poet of empire coined an expression that became part of the common currency when he said:

“ere’s to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your ‘ome in the Soudan;

You’re a pore benighted ‘eathen but a first-class fightin’ man”.

That typified people’s attitude to what was then Sudan and Egypt, which was going to be not just the biggest country in Africa, but by far the biggest.

I am acutely aware, Mr Walker, that we are here to talk about a specific subject, so I shall return to what we can do in Sudan.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

rose—

[Stephen Pound]

Before I do so, I give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

On the aid that we might give to Sudan, it is worth noting in passing that the United States Agency for International Development, which is the largest aid agency in the world, is much more clever than DFID at making sure that its contracts go to US businesses.

[Stephen Pound]

Like many hon. Members, I have seen great sacks of grain and bales of bottled water being delivered to places, covered in stars and stripes. I support the emotion that drives that, but I am slightly worried about badging to such an extent. By and large, this should be about global humanity rather than national self-interest. If that is absurdly naive, so is CAFOD, which is probably one reason why my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) and I have such sympathy with and respect for its work.

One problem that we currently face is the Lord’s Resistance Army. It is an issue that simply cannot go away. As we know, it is not just a southern Sudanese issue; it affects also the Central African Republic and the DRC. It is a completely out-of-control, non-hierarchical militia, in many cases staffed by forced soldiers—often child conscripts—that commits the foulest and most appalling crimes. There has to be a way to do the two things that are necessary. The first is to stop the supply of child soldiers—those brutalised conscripted children—into this appalling group. I am not sure what to call it—we cannot use the word “army”—but it is almost a heavily armed mob. The second thing is to divert the energy from that force and to persuade people that there is sufficient safety in their home areas for them to return, and that they do not always have to sleep with an AK47 under their pillow. That will be incredibly difficult.

I have mentioned CAFOD, and I do not want to embarrass my friends there too much. However, in the western equatorial state, about 100,000 people are displaced—just imagine that number of people, in a country the size of Britain. It is a vast number, and the CAFOD people are doing an immensely good job, certainly in the diocese of Tombura Yambio, where most of them are working. We must support that work.

Although there is an interesting debate about the honesty of individual nations when it comes to assisting, advising, helping and supporting, I think that we would all agree that even the noblest nation sometimes does not have the same reputation as some of the best NGOs. When I see what the NGOs have achieved on the global scale, I often feel that their work is more sustainable and more widely respected. I profoundly hope that we can continue the beyond-symbiotic relationship that exists between DFID and the various NGOs—CAFOD, Caritas Internationalis, Christian Aid and many others—because that seems to be the way forward.

Above all, we have a new nation taking the first step of its life, blinking in the sunlight. In a couple of months, this new nation will take its first tottering steps and, if it appears to be falling, we will have to be there to offer a hand, to offer support, to offer succour, and to offer refreshment, advice and assistance. Whether that is through DFID or CAFOD, I know not, but I profoundly hope that it comes from the heart.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr O'Brien]

That will form part of the state building of Sudan, and it applies elsewhere. Whether or not we are dealing with Dodd-Frank as an example, the Chancellor has said that he wants to explore that idea and see what lessons it has for us at a European level because, of course, it is only worth moving if we all move as one.

We also need to recognise that many African countries are mineral rich and that that is a potential means by which the private sector will be able to develop in such a way as to benefit the greatest number of people. The evidence shows that, if we can get the right explosion of what we might glibly call the middle class, or at least rising economic prosperity among a greater number of people, that will create the biggest, best and most sustainable alleviator of poverty. In the meantime, getting good public services, relieving poverty, saving lives and improving health have to be the first responses—even beyond humanitarian emergency responses—so that we can make sure that people have the opportunity to take part in that prosperity. At the moment, people are often denied a sufficiently long life even to have an opportunity to be a part of that future.

I was in Sudan three years ago in 2008. I went as chairman of the charity, the Malaria Consortium, of which I was then the honorary trustee chairman. I went from Juba, which at that point had only 10 metres of road metalled, up to Rumbek and Wau, where I met the new President of south Sudan, Salva Kiir, who happened to be landing in his jet—I had gone by car. We met on the airport apron and went up to Northern Bahr el Ghazal at Aweil and out to the tiny village of Aroyo. I saw for myself—this is a bit of a surprise to most people; it was particularly a surprise to me when I saw the request for 300 boats on the accounts of the Malaria Consortium—that, when the rainy season comes, Sudan is awash with water. It is not very deep, but the only way to get around is by boat. Many people do not understand the logistical issues that face the people of southern Sudan and that part of the country, and the challenge of dealing with the poverty.

The other thing I remember from that visit—this is not in my brief, but I remember it well and it is relevant to our consideration of the whole of the humanitarian response—is that because there has been almost permanent war going on since the ’50s and many conflicts before then, there has been a tendency for people to scatter, disperse and effectively hide. There are no pockets of population that are easy to address in terms of disease, economic opportunity, education or health access. It is a case of finding lots of people in very remote areas. We are talking about a particularly difficult area to service.

When looking at the analysis as DFID, it was clear to us that we should divide the £140 million per annum for the next four years—there is also £280 million in the current year—by a £90 million and £50 million split. I will talk about the results we intend to deliver in a moment. Hon. Members will know that we have been absolutely determined—this is partly in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood)—to say that it is not what we are spending that is important; it is the results we are seeking to achieve through working with local people. DFID does not go out there with DFID people. It has offices and so on, but we procure the best people in the best possible way—most transparently and by getting the greatest value for money—to deliver, many of whom are with the non-governmental organisations.

I shall partly answer a point I was going to mention later on NGOs. It is absolutely vital for the NGOs—particularly those with experience and knowledge of the territory, connections with people and trust within communities—to have the chance to bid for such opportunities. That is why on the DFID website there is a section on the Global Poverty Action Fund. CAFOD has knowledge of that, but other organisations will see that there is a series of rounds where those with expertise and experience have an opportunity to bid. If the organisations qualify, pass the due diligence tests and can demonstrate value for money and transparency, they will be part of the way in which we are able to deliver results.

The results we want to deliver in Sudan are to help 1 million people to get enough food to eat; to enable 240,000 more children to go to primary school; to provide malaria prevention and treatment for 750,000 people; to give 800,000 people access to clean drinking water and sanitation; to provide life-saving health and nutrition for to up to 10 million people; and to give 250,000 women better access to justice. That point was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds.

[Stephen Pound]

I am so impressed with the Minister’s words, I feel extremely guilty for having tramped the streets of Eddisbury in the election to try to prevent him getting elected. It is a pleasure to hear what he is saying. His work in the field of malaria is very well known throughout the House and far wider. In view of the statistic he has just given, does he feel that we are doing sufficient to provide in-country medical advice, treatment and therapeutic support to prevent malaria re-emerging, or does he think that we will face many years when overseas aid will address the issue of malaria, particularly in southern Sudan?

[Mr O'Brien]

The hon. Gentleman is right. Southern Sudan represents one of the cradles where tropical diseases are most virulent and are most likely to sustain over our lifetimes. If one were to pick the three areas where it would be difficult to rid the world of malaria and other tropical diseases, they would be parts of the DRC, parts of Nigeria and southern Sudan. There is, therefore, an opportunity to make an appreciable difference and contribute significantly to the millennium development goals. That is why the focus on south Sudan, irrespective of the fact that it fits very well with our intention to put money behind conflict states and fragile states, will have a major multiplier and leverage effect.

Of course, NGOs and donor agencies will be instrumental in ensuring that there is sustained, predictable programme money to help local health systems, as they grow, to develop malaria control and malaria elimination opportunities. Equally, it will be important to recognise that, with a very low capacity in southern Sudan, it will be many years before the population will not be afflicted by malaria. A little like Ethiopia, southern Sudan is prone to epidemics of malaria simply because of the nature of the vector. In other parts, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa, malaria is more endemic and persistent across all the seasons. It is easier to persuade people to use nets all the time, whereas it is more difficult to persuade people to use the preventative method of a net when there are epidemics, because very often they do not get the net up before the epidemic has already taken hold. Without getting too diverted on malaria, about which I have been known to be able to wax lyrical—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Tom Clarke]

I am not for one second introducing aggro that I do not feel by saying that I enjoyed the 43 minutes for which the Minister spoke. I assure him that I, like others, will carefully consider the many points that he made. We appreciate the thought that he has given to the various issues that were raised, and we will have an opportunity to read what he said. My immediate response before reading his speech is that what he said on CPA, Abyei, the Mbeki group, south Kordofan, the Blue Nile and so on was very helpful, if only because these issues have scarcely been reported in recent times. We all appreciate that there have been huge issues throughout the world in Tunisia, Egypt, Japan and elsewhere, and we understand that they should be fully reported, but the great merit of this excellent debate is that in this Parliament, which is representative of the people of the United Kingdom, we have put Darfur on the agenda again.

I welcome the Minister’s comments, and I welcome DFID’s role in these important matters. Numerous points were made in the debate. Did I agree with all of them? It would be less than honest if I said yes, but there was a remarkable measure of agreement throughout the Chamber. The points on which we agree—in a few moments I want to turn to the future of Sudan—and the debate have offered hope to many people, including those who have followed the debate, and those outside who hear about our discussion. That, too, is long overdue.

I thank the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) for his contribution. I am glad that I have time to say that he has focused on these issues, particularly Sudan, in his role as Chair of the Select Committee on International Development, and in so many other ways. I believe that on these issues his constituents should be proud of him, and I am sure that they are. If the debate had any purpose at all, it was met in his wonderful message in the statement from the Anglican bishops, and I hope that he will feel free to tell them that we reciprocate their objectives and hopes for the future of Sudan, and the prayers that they have no doubt expressed. I thank him for his contribution.

The hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) travelled from Bournemouth for the debate, and I thank him for that. He referred to the complexities in north and south Sudan, such as the 200 ethnic groups. I was very pleased that he mentioned, as others did later, the humanitarian crisis and how the United Nations sees it. He also referred to the problems of fundamentalism.

If I have one regret when it comes to disagreement, it has to be with the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski). Until the last five minutes or so of his speech, I thought he was doing remarkably well, and that is still my view. That said, he was a brave man willingly to take on Clare Short and China in one speech. Clare Short and I had our disagreements and, sadly, she is not now even a member of my party, but she re-established international development as a Department. It been on the fringes. I mean no disrespect, but when I came to Parliament it was led by a Minister of State in the House of Lords with 10 minutes’ Question Time at the end of Foreign Affairs questions. Clare Short re-established the role of international development and reminded the people of Britain that there are poor people in a rich world.

In 1982, when I came to Parliament, the Brandt report was published and reminded us that although we have responsibilities to the poor south, there is some interdependence. The point about looking to the future, and to trade, exports and interdependence was made well by the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham and others. That is something I welcome and for which Clare ought to be remembered.

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman mentioned mineral extraction—that point was taken up by other hon. Members and I will come to it later if time allows. The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) made a positive speech. She dealt with violence after the referendum and rightly drew our attention again to Darfur, which she thought had been overshadowed. She was not the only hon. Member who mentioned gender, and she was absolutely right to raise that subject and speak about the lack of rights for women in Sudan. Although there may have been a few improvements on the fringes, her comments were a reflection of what is going on in both north and south Sudan, directed from Khartoum.

I regard the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) as a personal friend. He and I visited Australia together as part of a CPA delegation. I was not surprised that his speech was so beautifully well informed and comprehensive or that it contained a great deal of clarity to help our understanding of this complex situation. Without being too hard on the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham, whom I respect very much, I felt that his description of the poverty, lack of clean water and health care, malnutrition and the poor priority given to education in that part of the world contrasted greatly with his attitude to debt that we heard towards the end of his speech.

Perhaps I should deal with the issue of debt before the clock ticks on much longer. I will set aside the domestic debate about the banks and so on because you would rightly remind me that that is not part of this debate, Mr Walker. I do not believe that in this wealthy, modern world of ours, the most impoverished and destitute people should be those who repay all the debt, base and interest. Every three seconds one of them has died as we have been debating this afternoon. Let me draw to the attention of the Chamber to the view of the Jubilee Debt Campaign; I assume from what the Minister has said that the Department for International Development will take these views on board. On Darfur it stated:

“Almost 60 per cent. ($20 billion) of Sudan’s debt is interest.”

That is money added to the sum that was borrowed, but it was not borrowed in the interests of those poor, hapless people who have been described so well by the hon. Member for The Cotswolds and others. I listen to opinions expressed by British taxpayers, and I do not believe that they are so mean-minded as to say that we who benefited from colonialism, not only in Sudan and Africa but elsewhere, and who also benefited from the Marshall plan after the second world war, without which we could never have thrived, would wish to deny the same things to countries as hapless and difficult as both sections of Sudan.

Having—I hope—put the issue of debt to bed, I will mention some of the other speeches. The hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) mentioned the Sudanese diaspora, which was an important contribution to the debate. I wish him well in the visit he is due to undertake, and I look forward to hearing his views on it afterwards. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) made a powerful and well-informed intervention that was witty, classical—

[Stephen Pound]

And irrelevant.

[Mr Clarke]

It was wholly relevant and compassionate. I will tell my hon. Friend something that I have always wanted to say, but did not plan on saying so publicly: he should not underestimate his own intellect. I think that he was on to something, and if we were to follow the advice that he gave us in his speech about how to deal with Sudan, and take that in a global context, much progress would be made. I welcomed his speech, and particularly the goals that he set.

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) made one of the winding-up speeches, and I pay tribute to the clarity of his speech and to the marvellous work that he did in this field before coming to the House. I am delighted that he speaks on these issues from the Opposition Front Benches. He speaks well and is remarkably well informed. I hope that he will get the opportunity to implement in Government some of the beliefs that he has held for many years, sometimes alone. I remember him speaking at Scottish Labour party conferences, which were perhaps once more concerned with domestic issues. Nevertheless, he got right to the heart of the issues that we have been addressing today.

What are those issues? This is a time of globalisation, and despite the awful poverty, conflict and lack of hope for the future, Sudan has the benefit of mineral resources which, if properly organised, could mean a brilliant future for all people in the country. People rightly talk about corruption, and I accept that is an issue. Perhaps I may say with some modesty that I sponsored the International Development (Reporting and Transparency) Act 2006 which dealt with that very issue. I acknowledge the help that I received in getting that Act through Parliament from a number of Government Members, not least the hon. Members for Bournemouth East and for Banbury.

Of course we want transparency and to wipe out corruption. I welcome what the Minister had to say on figures, and he should not take this as a rebuke. However, when he gave us those figures, I reflected that until we took the issue of corruption and transparency seriously, the money did not go where British taxpayers wanted it to go. That is why Clare Short was such a successful Minister. In some ways I am slightly surprised that nobody has mentioned the way she took on the European Union and said, “When it comes to multilateral agreements, development and aid we want to know why the EU is acting in that way and what the arguments are. We will support those arguments when we believe them to be right, but we are entitled to know the thinking behind them.” She deserves credit for that, and very much more.

As we come to the end of the debate, let me say that had it been held at prime time on the Floor of the House, people would have been very proud of our Parliament. They would have been proud because they share the view of Edmund Burke that all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. With all its limitations, I believe that we have done something in today’s debate, and offered hope, prosperity and good will to people who have long deserved it.

Question put and agreed to.