Gareth Thomas
Main Page: Gareth Thomas (Labour (Co-op) - Harrow West)Housing and Planning Bill (Tenth sitting)
Gareth Thomas Excerpts
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move amendment 89, in clause 56, page 24, line 8, at end insert—
“except in respect of high value sheltered housing which has been provided or adapted for the use of elderly or disabled people.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 146, in clause 56, page 24, line 8, at end insert—
“with the exclusion of—
(a) supported housing for older people,
(b) supported housing units (including self-contained homes where floating support is provided for vulnerable people),
(c) key worker housing (which includes self-contained flats subject to nomination agreements with 3rd parties),
(d) units that form part of major regeneration schemes planned or already under way,
(e) rural settlements,
(f) homes built for charitable purposes without Government grant and homes provided through Section 106 agreements requiring stock to be kept as social housing in perpetuity,
(g) cooperative housing,
(h) Almos, and
(i) almshouses.”
This amendment would exclude certain categories of specialised housing from being subject to the Right to Buy provisions of the bill.
Mr Thomas
That aspiration is one that I strongly support but I think that support should be through the supply of housing for sale. I argue gently to the Committee and in particular to the hon. Member for South Norfolk, who started so well by agreeing with me, that the additional supply of homes for sale should never be at the expense of affordable homes for rent. In the context of the amendment, that is homes for rent for the most vulnerable.
Mr Thomas
The hon. Gentleman begins to make my point for me. If he observes a little patience but continues to listen with the enthusiasm he has shown thus far, I will come to exactly that point.
I should allude to some of the difficulty that the Opposition, the hon. Gentleman and some of his friends, and those listening and watching our proceedings, are facing in being able to scrutinise the terms of right to buy. In response to the points of order I raised last week about the lack of information about right to buy, the Minister referred us to the offer details on the National Housing Federation website. When I had the chance to read that information, it made clear that the Government and the National Housing Federation and its members would work together on the implementation of an agreement and an operational document would be published. To date I can find no evidence of that operational document having been published. I look forward to the Minister giving clarity on that. It is particularly important in the context of the pilot schemes that have been launched. We simply do not know the terms on which those housing associations are piloting the offer of the right to buy.
In the context of the amendment, we do not know whether sheltered and specialist housing are excluded, or whether in the context of amendment 146 other forms of housing will be excluded in line with the original offer document. We do not know how long the pilots will run before other housing associations are required to join in. We do not know how the deal will be financed, given that it will take some time for vacant high-value council homes to be sold off to provide the finance to compensate housing associations.
As I indicated, we do not know whether the five pilots are operating exactly in line with the headlines that were agreed between the National Housing Federation and the Government. We do not know whether the five housing associations will be committing to replace like for like rented homes for sale with other homes for rent.
In particular, in the context of my amendment, we do not know whether the five housing associations will specifically replace any sheltered or specialist housing that is sold in a like-for-like way. In the National Housing Federation offer, which was published on its website, housing associations expected the Government to work with them to put in place measures to limit fraudulent activity. That is surely particularly important in the context of vulnerable adults who, in some cases, will be in sheltered or specialist housing provided by housing associations.
It would have been helpful for the Minister to have published the operational document to which he, presumably, and the National Housing Federation remain committed. Presumably, within that document, there would have been information on how action to stop such fraudulent activity might have taken place. One of the concerns raised in evidence to the Communities and Local Government Committee by one of the housing associations was the worry that family members or friends might try to persuade someone to buy their sheltered housing property when, in fact, they may not really want to do that. It is presumably that type of activity that the Government might want to stop. It would have been helpful to have the detail of the types of measures that they were going to put in place to stop that.
The offer document also anticipates the Government putting in place arrangements to manage the financial costs of the right to buy, to ensure that the cost of sales does not exceed the value of the receipts received, which could include an annual cap on the cost of right-to-buy discounts. Does the Minister remain committed to that in general, as part of the offer and in the context of sheltered and specialised housing? Will it apply in the context of the five pilot housing associations? It would be helpful to hear a little more detail.
The National Housing Federation offer specifically suggested seven categories where housing associations might exercise discretion over sales. Again, it would be helpful to hear from the Minister on whether, as part of the deal that he has agreed with the housing associations that are piloting this deal—the London & Quadrant Housing Trust, or L&Q, Riverside, Saffron, Sovereign and Thames Valley—the seven categories will remain the same, not least because, in the context of the amendment, one of the specific categories mentioned includes “supported housing”, as defined by part 5 of one of the previous Housing Acts. Other categories that are potentially directly related to the discussion on amendments 89 and 146 relate to properties in rural locations being excluded, properties where there are restricted covenants being excluded, and properties held in a community land trust being excluded. Again, it would be helpful to hear from the Minister whether the five piloting housing associations will continue to offer exclusions in those areas.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
No doubt the hon. Gentleman has read the briefing from the National Housing Federation, which said, in answer to the question of how certain types of affordable home will be protected, that the agreement allows housing associations to protect the affordable homes they own that would be difficult to replace, for example, specialist housing or homes in rural areas. Does that not satisfy his concerns?
Mr Thomas
Not completely, I have to say. Although it was helpful to receive the NHF document, it would have been helpful to have received the full operational document from the Government. Why does it not satisfy my concerns? I give the example of the Greenoak Housing Association, which operates in Woking. Its chief executive gave evidence to the Communities and Local Government Committee on 4 November and noted the fact that Greenoak is a particular specialist in the supply of sheltered housing. She said:
“Around one-third of our housing is sheltered with support. We could obviously exclude them ourselves, but the difficulty would be in re-providing.”
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that, as part of the deal with the Government, the National Housing Federation committed that, where a property was excluded from a sale but a tenant wanted to buy it, housing associations would have to offer an alternative property for sale. The chief executive of Greenoak said:
“We do not see why we should be giving a portable discount for people who are in the most suitable housing for them at the current time with the support that they need.”
It would be helpful to hear from the Minister what future the Government see for housing associations that are specialists in sheltered, supported and other specialist housing. How will those housing associations deal with the issue of portable discounts and the potential requirement they face under the deal to offer another property for sale? There is a risk of that making those housing associations not financially sustainable, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman, and indeed all hon. Members, would not want to happen.
What happens when all properties owned by a housing association in one area are specialist or sheltered housing? How would the right to buy be exercised in that situation? One could understand a tenant approaching the housing association and saying, “I want to stay within Harrow because it is so well represented in Parliament,” and no doubt for other reasons. The housing association will want to do the right thing by its tenant, but it is only offering sheltered housing in that area and wants to maintain that stock. How would that situation be dealt with by the Government and housing associations?
Age UK, in its written evidence, specifically laments the failure to build more sheltered and retirement housing and to offer older people more housing options in later life. It argues:
“Based on demographic trends, specialist housing will need to increase by between 35 per cent and 75 per cent just to keep pace with demand.”
Age UK is concerned about the decline in the availability of sheltered and other forms of specialist housing for older people on low incomes.
Although I welcome the extra capital funding announced as part of the spending review for specialist housing, which I assume includes sheltered housing, the Bill must be clear about the need to exclude sheltered and other specialist housing from the right to buy in order to ensure there is not inadvertently a further decline in the provision of sheltered housing as a result of the Bill.
I support amendment 146, tabled by my hon. Friends, not least because there is increasing concern in Harrow and, indeed, other parts of London about the provision of housing that key workers are able to afford. Of course, those key workers will no doubt have the aspiration I alluded to earlier to buy a home in due course, but if that is some way off, their immediate priority will be to find a property that is affordable to rent. One thinks of careworkers, of nurses, of teaching assistants, of the cleaner for the Minister’s office and of policemen, on occasion. One wants surely to ensure that there continues to be a reasonable supply of affordable accommodation within reasonable distance of those people’s place of work.
I welcome also the National Housing Federation decision to insist that co-op housing is not included in any right to buy, but there should be additional protection on the face of the Bill. Indeed, the Housing Act 1985 approached the issue of exclusions from the right to buy by putting those exclusions on the face of the Bill. Schedule 5 to that Act lists a series of exceptions to right to buy, including—this is a particular interest of mine—
“if the landlord is a co-operative housing association.”
The amendment would replicate that provision. Surely it would be sensible to put that on the face of the Bill. In that spirit, I look forward to the Minister’s reply to the various questions I have asked and hope that the hon. Member for South Norfolk is convinced of the sensibleness of my amendment.
Mr Bacon
I know the hon. Gentleman struggles to emulate Cicero or Demosthenes but I feel I ought to point out that, although there is a certain dulcet quality to his delivery, it reminds me more of bagpipes. There is a certain onward droning quality. I caution him not to speak like that for so long in the early afternoon because many Conservative Members will probably fall asleep.
Mr Thomas
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps I should caution him not to go for the expensive and well oiled lunch that perhaps is a feature of interest for him from Tuesday to Thursday. I am not quite sure that I have convinced him on this amendment and I fear that I will have to try a little harder to convince him of other issues during the course of the day.
Mr Jackson
Not necessarily to the advantage of either of our careers, I suspect. May I bring the hon. Gentleman back to amendment 146? Given that there was some debate earlier about the differentials in earnings and affordability across the country, does he not think that it is somewhat prescriptive to put a reference to key workers on the face of the Bill? The affordability of key workers in the north-east, north-west or east midlands might be entirely different from that in the south-east. Would it not be better to leave the Minister to make the appropriate regulations in respect of affordability on the issue of right to buy, rather than to put it on the face of the Bill?
Mr Thomas
Certainly when I was a Minister, I used to think that leaving it to the Minister’s judgment was sensible but, having spent some time on the Back Benches for a while, I am increasingly of the view that Parliament should try to limit the discretion that is purely at the hands of the Executive and might be outwith the full scrutiny of the Committee. I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman does not want to try to help the police, and those who work for the national health service and careworkers who cannot afford a starter home or to buy on the open market, and who therefore need affordable housing. Why can he not see it within himself to offer them protection?
Mr Jackson
I am merely being Christian and charitable in trying to assist the hon. Gentleman towards seeing the error of his ways. I believe that, if his amendment is on the face of the Bill, it may very well give rise to legal challenges between some people who say they are key workers and others who say they are not. The definition of key workers will be problematic if it is put on the face of the Bill, rather than being left to the experience of right to buy over a course of time and the Minister then laying appropriate regulations or guidelines in respect of keyworkers.
Mr Thomas
It is precisely because the hon. Gentleman is so Christian and charitable that I have decided to add him to the very small list of Conservatives whose careers I am going to champion. I strongly believe that we need to give keyworkers protection. I recognise his point about the need to get definitions right, but I think there is sufficient recognition of the case for helping those who work in our police forces and the national health service, and our careworkers, for me to push the Minister to give additional help to protect properties for such workers.
Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
Touching briefly on the point made by the hon. Member for Peterborough and the need for greater clarity and greater protections, the record should reflect the request made by the National Housing Federation in its written submission that the Government
“ensure the wording in the Bill reflects the agreement between housing associations and government”.
It is concerned that that parts of that voluntary agreement are not in the Bill, and so could be changed at any point by future Governments.
Mr Thomas
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. The brutal truth, as I suspect the hon. Member for Peterborough knows full well, is that the Government have been making up various provisions of the Bill on the hoof. Our amendments are designed to preclude any ability for the Executive to override the intentions of Parliament and to ignore the glitches that we are highlighting in their plans thus far. I recognise that the hon. Gentleman, perhaps for career reasons, may not want to support publicly the concerns of Opposition Members, but I am sure that given the fluency and skill of my contribution, he will want to take up those concerns with his hon. Friend the Minister outside the Chamber.
The Chair
Before I call the next speaker, may I say that although this sitting has been interesting and enlightening so far, we are committed to trying to get through this Bill and we have got an awful lot to do today? Could Members try to keep to the piece and be reflective in their analysis?
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
I thought I would try and help the hon. Lady. I do not know whether she has tried picking up the phone and speaking to any of the chief executives, as I have, but it is quite easy to speak to them. I am sure that they will be happy to talk her through their excitement in being allowed to offer ownership to a whole new group of people.
Mr Thomas
On a point of order, Sir Alan. After the Minister’s very generous offer to my hon. Friend, would it not be possible to arrange an extra session, to which the Minister might invite the five chief executives to present evidence to the whole Committee, so that we do not have to put in separate phone calls? We could hear directly from the housing associations. Perhaps we could extend the Committee by a day in order to allow that to happen—just a thought, Sir Alan.
The Chair
That is very interesting, but it is not in keeping with the purpose of this Committee, which has already had a very lengthy advisory session at the beginning of its proceedings. Could we move on?
Dr Blackman-Woods
My hon. Friend makes an excellent suggestion. If the Minister had let me finish my sentence, I would have said that such communication as I have had with the five housing associations has emphasised that things are still at a very early stage. A lot of the detailed information we are seeking from the Minister through the amendment concerns a set of issues that have not yet been considered.
Proposed new clause 56(1)(a) would exclude supported housing for older people. I am not going to repeat everything that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West said, but it is interesting that a review of the sector in 2012 by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation found an almost complete absence of information about the availability of supported housing to rent and recommended that the Government carry out a more detailed analysis of the availability of affordable housing to rent in the sector. It also highlighted that such housing leads to greater self-determination, safety, security and privacy for older people, and promotes greater social cohesion and sense of community, as residents support each other.
The point we are all making is that if the housing is of good quality, with excellent support in place and adequate security measures—that generally describes the supported housing provided by housing associations—its disappearance could be a catastrophe. That is especially true because the way in which replacement schemes would be financed is not clear at the moment. That point was made a number of times in the evidence to the Committee.
As we know, and as a number of hon. Members have already said, the National Housing Federation included in its briefing to us examples of circumstances in which a housing association would seek to exercise discretion over sales. That is how it is being put to us. We have to be clear that the nature of the voluntary agreement between the housing associations and the Government is to allow or to accept a whole series of discretionary exemptions. One of the main purposes behind the amendment is to tease out the thinking on this. Should this be a discretionary matter, or not? Should we have more detail in the guidance or regulations, or should some of this go on the face of the Bill?
The categories that have been outlined include properties where the landlord is a co-operative housing association, properties where the landlord does not have sufficient legal interest to be able to grant a lease, tied accommodation, properties which are chargeable to public benefit resources, supported housing and, critically, housing in rural areas. As we know, a lot of people giving evidence to the Committee were incredibly concerned about the sale of houses under right to buy in rural areas if there was not sufficient funding.
Mr Thomas
Does my hon. Friend not think that there is a need to write exclusions onto the face of the Bill, particularly for sheltered and specialist housing? As she and I have discussed, that is particularly needed in the context of the 1% cut in social rents being forced on housing associations. A number of housing association chief executives are worried that they will have to stop providing supported and sheltered housing, or substantially reduce the amount that they provide.
Dr Blackman-Woods
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. We will come to some of the detail of that point when we debate amendment 147.
We have had evidence from Age Concern and others about the need for supported housing for older people. We know from research carried out by Centrepoint and Habinteg that there is acute need across the country for more housing for vulnerable people. We have had information from the CBI about the need to create and support housing for key workers to ensure that lack of housing does not impede economic growth. I thought that the CBI briefing was extremely helpful, and I point out to Government Members the need for identified housing for key workers, particularly in areas of the country where house values are high and availability of affordable housing is restricted, such as in our major cities.
We have not talked much during this sitting about the need to exempt housing in major regeneration schemes, but again, a number of housing associations have given evidence about the difficulty that they would have funding large regeneration schemes if the properties were subject, particularly in the short term, to the right to buy. We have had a lot of evidence from the Campaign to Protect Rural England and others about the need to protect rural settlements, homes built for charitable purposes, co-op housing, arm’s length management organisation housing and almshouses. I accept that this is quite a wide-ranging amendment; nevertheless, it is important that we hear from the Minister about each of those categories and whether he thinks they should be exempt.
Mr Thomas
I have one other concern about co-operative housing. Where a housing association runs co-operative housing—it is a registered housing provider that provides exclusively co-operative housing—is it not sensible to exclude it? Otherwise, there could be pressure, perhaps due to a lack of understanding or directly from the Government or the National Housing Federation, for that housing association still to offer the portable discount, even though co-op housing is, in theory, completely excluded from the Bill. The housing association would have no other housing to offer, as it provides only co-op housing.
Dr Blackman-Woods
Once again, my hon. Friend makes an important point. It would be helpful to have some clarification from the Minister about the exemptions and where and how he thinks portability should operate. Hopefully, we will come to that later in this debate. I agree with my hon. Friend about the need to protect co-operative housing. Many of the issues that we have raised in this debate relate directly to the ability of housing associations in their various guises to offer a replacement and to have the finance to do so. Hopefully, we will come to that later too. I look forward to hearing from the Minister.
Kevin Hollinrake
There is no doubt that, in my constituency alone, we have seen a 100% increase in the amount of building in 2015 versus 2014. If the hon. Gentleman looks at his figures, I am sure he will see a similar increase in his constituency. Has he looked at his figures? There is no doubt that the data on the direction of travel in my constituency and many others like it are very clear—there is a 56% increase. Planning consents are increasing, too, but there is more to be done. The Bill is about releasing more land, particularly brownfield land, and expediting the whole planning process to ensure that local authorities properly staff their planning departments. The Bill allows planning in principle, giving developers more certainty about the land they are acquiring so that they can build properties on that land.
The other key thing that we need to address in the housing market is affordability, and of course those challenges are about lack of supply, which we also hope to address with some of the measures in the Bill. Owner-occupation has fallen in recent years, largely due to the recession, and it is something that we desperately want to address. I was lucky enough to buy a home in my early 20s, and I imagine that most people in this room own their own home. Why should we lock people out of that opportunity to own their own home? The Bill contains provisions on starter homes and, as in this clause, on voluntary agreement on right to buy. It is absolutely right to use our public assets more efficiently and effectively, and to release them to allow more building. Opposition Members have asked several times whether the affected homes will be replaced, and time and again we have seen evidence showing that the answer is yes.
Kevin Hollinrake
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that Shelter is not a housing association or a housing provider. I am not sure what Shelter is most of the time, but several housing associations gave evidence to our Committee. I am not sure whether he was in attendance to hear their evidence, but when my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South asked whether the measures would result in increased housing provision, they all said that it would. The measures in the Bill will clearly increase supply and will increase the number of affordable homes to buy.
The National Housing Federation told us that the agreement allows housing associations to protect affordable homes, specialist homes and rural homes. Again, that is the question raised by the amendment. Many of the housing associations I have met outside the Committee have said that they will be selling more homes and building more homes as a result of these provisions. Riverside Housing expects a fourfold increase in the number of homes that it will sell as a result of the extension of right to buy. I absolutely support the provisions of the Bill and the clauses that the amendments seek to change.
Brandon Lewis
The deal was signed and, as I understand from the comments of David Orr, all the housing associations that took part in that vote understood that it was a deal for the entire sector. Some 96% of stock is now signed up, and of those that did not have time to sign up or did not otherwise sign up, there is a fair proportion of that 4% that benefit from the right to buy for the transfer of stock anyway. It would be an extraordinarily controlling move if we were to include in the Bill restrictions on housing association decision-making powers, especially as we have worked closely with housing associations to reach a voluntary agreement in the first place, particularly in the light of recent decisions by the Office for National Statistics.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend outlines something that is coming in across the housing association sector. I have spoken to chief executives and others who work in the sector, and they want to introduce new and innovative ideas to deliver more housing and give their tenants a stairway into ownership. Saffron is a really good example of an innovative association. Clearly, as we heard earlier, Opposition Members are not speaking to housing associations much at the moment and are missing out on some of the exciting things associations are talking about and want to do.
Housing associations are professional organisations that operate according to sound commercial and social principles, and we should let them get on with delivering the part of the bargain that they have proposed and which we have accepted. I therefore hope that the hon. Member for Harrow West will withdraw the amendment.
Mr Thomas
I am grateful to the Minister for his comments. I very much enjoyed the contribution of the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, and I now feel torn. Should I continue to champion the career of the hon. Member for Peterborough? Perhaps the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton is a better hope. I will see what the Committee decides. I do not want to break my commitment to the hon. Member for Peterborough, but the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton made a case that was at least compelling enough for me to champion him and help him out.
The Minister’s central charge against the Opposition was that we are seeking in some way to prevent people who aspire to own their own home from doing so. That is simply not the case; indeed, I suspect the Minister feels some shame about the fact that home ownership has declined proportionately during the Conservative party’s period in government, and I recognise his desperate need to cover that up.
Brandon Lewis
Would the hon. Gentleman still endorse the view of the shadow Housing Minister, who said it is a good thing that home ownership has fallen since 2005, and recognised what the Government are doing through starter homes and Help to Buy to rebuild home ownership after the mess that Labour left?
Mr Thomas
I suspect that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) would not have used at least the last part of the phrasing that the Minister used. I join the Minister in praising my right hon. Friend for setting up an inquiry into the reasons for the decline in home ownership and into what we can do about it. I also pay tribute to Peter Redfern, the chief executive officer of Taylor Wimpey, who is leading that inquiry. That follows on from the Lyons review, which was set up by the then shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls, which looked at how we can accelerate progress on home ownership. There is no lack of enthusiasm among Opposition Members for helping people who want to buy their own home. Our point is simply that we need to look at the interests of everyone who needs a place to live—potentially a place to rent while they seek to achieve their dream of a place to own.
It is for that reason that we have raised a number of concerns about the extension of the right to buy and particularly the forced sale of council homes, which we will come on to. We are concerned that that will lead to a reduction in the number of homes available to those on low and middle incomes who cannot immediately afford to buy a property.
I gently say to the Minister, as I said in an intervention on the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, that Shelter has been very clear about the Government’s failure to build like-for-like replacements. Only one in nine of properties sold under the right to buy has been replaced.
Brandon Lewis
If the hon. Gentleman looks at the actual figures outlined at the Dispatch Box by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and by me, he will see that Shelter’s representation of those figures is, bluntly, wrong. The councils delivering right-to-buy rebuilds are delivering those extra homes one for one at the moment, and in fact in London it is closer to two for one. That is in Hansard.
Mr Thomas
I was going to suggest that the Minister, if he has not already done so, might like to read what I am told is an excellent book by the hon. Member for South Norfolk. It is called “Conundrum: Why every government gets things wrong and what we can do about it”. Life is too short, sadly, for me to read it, but I gently suggest to the Minister that he might seek inspiration and understanding of why one should seek outside sources to validate or at least challenge the assumptions that one has come to oneself or that one’s civil servants have encouraged one as a Minister to come to. I gently say to the Minister that Opposition Members, in the amendments that we have tabled, are seeking only to do what the late Margaret Thatcher did with the Housing Act 1985. Even she conceded that there was a need for exceptions to the right to buy, and they were included in legislation, not least in the 1985 Act, as I have set out. It seems to us entirely sensible to put in the Bill similar provisions on exceptions to the right to buy. We would be helping housing associations and, indeed, helping the Government in legislative terms by making clear where housing associations stand.
Mr Jackson
I fear that the hon. Gentleman is over-egging the pudding. Surely the centrepiece of the voluntary agreement between registered providers and the Government is the portable discount concept, which retains a solid commitment to the right to buy, but at the same time allows housing associations autonomy to judge locally what is applicable to them and what it is appropriate to retain in the form of specialist housing or other types of housing. The hon. Gentleman is exaggerating the effect of the Bill, because that is the centrepiece of the voluntary agreement.
Mr Thomas
I gently suggest to the hon. Gentleman that part of the purpose of opposition is to address the question of the law of unintended consequences for any legislation that the Government propose. I gave the example of housing associations that are registered housing providers but provide all their homes in a housing co-operative format. How do they offer a portable discount to their tenants? They cannot do so. Housing co-operatives are excluded in theory under the deal, but there is uncertainty as to whether the question of a portable discount still stands, so to provide absolute clarity, for the benefit of housing associations, for registered housing providers, for the benefit of the regulator of social housing as set out in clause 58 and for the Government—to enable everyone to know where they stand—it is surely sensible to include in the Bill a certain number of exceptions.
In the context of amendment 89, it is wise, given the decline in the availability of sheltered and specialist housing for those who are most vulnerable and particularly those who are older, to put in the Bill a sensible exclusion in that respect. For that reason, tempted as I am to agree with the Minister, I cannot do so on this occasion and I intend to press amendment 89 to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Mr Thomas
The Minister has specifically referred to information on the NHF website. On the briefing that it has sent round since the spending review, the NHF specifically asks for two amendments to the Bill. Clauses 56 and 57 say that the Secretary of State and the Greater London Authority “may” make grants, but the NHF thinks that “may” should be changed to “must”. It clearly has some concerns about whether the Government will follow through with giving the full sum, as the Minister claims they will. Why not commit now to doing what the NHF wants on Report and tweaking the wording of clauses 56 and 57?
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)
I have listened very carefully to the hon. Lady’s long explanation of her amendments. She might want to think again about amendment 151. As a Member representing a London constituency, I absolutely agree with the thrust of what she said: the proceeds of the sales should ensure that there is extra affordable housing provision in London. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South has already pointed out the potential internal contradiction between “assessed local housing need” and “of the same tenure”. I could spend quite a lot of time discussing whether housing of the same tenure would be appropriate.
The hon. Lady should also think about a current example of how boroughs in London find ways to solve their housing need. There are 75 people who were on the housing list in Newham who have been found properties in my constituency because of the ability to move around within Greater London. The hon. Lady needs to think very carefully about the workability of the provision that new homes are in the same London borough.
Stephen Hammond
I will give way very briefly, because I want to win the record for the shortest speech and have the hon. Gentleman champion my career as well.
Mr Thomas
I have always had a sneaking regard for the hon. Gentleman, so perhaps he may persuade me on that at a later point. What is to stop a housing association that operates in Harrow, and is required to sell off housing stock in Harrow, using the grants that it is given from the Government to build like-for-like housing not in Harrow and not in London, but in Great Yarmouth or Nuneaton?
Stephen Hammond
If the hon. Gentleman looks carefully at new clause 1, which I and others tabled, he will see that it is more ambitious than the amendment because: first, it seeks a greater number; and secondly, it uses the term “Greater London”. I absolutely agree with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s point, but this amendment has some real potential dangers that would go against what the hon. Lady actually wants to do. We also really need to look at the spread of tenures that could be replaced to be more in line with London’s needs. The money could be kept in London, and this amendment is too restrictive. I urge the Minister to accept the principle but to firmly reject amendment 151, because I do not believe that it is in the best interests of London.
Mr Bacon
I would like a brief chance to respond to the amendment as well. The constituents whom the hon. Lady described would attract all our sympathy. I only say to her that if it is possible to do it in Berlin, Amsterdam, Stockholm and many other major cities around the world, it is possible to do it in London as well.
Mr Thomas
I rise briefly to support the amendment in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting and to note that there is nothing in the National Housing Federation’s deal with the Government that protects the interests of London compared with the rest of the country. As I alluded to in my intervention on the hon. Member for Wimbledon, there is nothing to stop housing associations that sell off housing for tenants replacing that housing in Nuneaton or Great Yarmouth, or indeed in other parts of the UK. Surely that is an unacceptable situation. Equally, there is nothing in the Bill that requires central London authorities to find like-for-like properties to be built in their areas. There is nothing to stop housing associations operating in the whole of London selling off properties in inner London and replacing them with properties elsewhere in London.
I say gently to Conservative Members that perhaps the ghost of Shirley Porter motivated this omission in the Bill. Hon. Members will remember that Shirley Porter went out of her way to push those in rented accommodation in Westminster City Council out of those properties in order to influence future elections.
Mr Bacon
It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman mentions Dame Shirley Porter. Does he agree that one should not really mention her without mentioning in the same sentence Herbert Morrison, Peter Mandelson’s grandfather? He said, in the late 1940s, “We will build the Tories out of London,” and I think he meant psephologically.
Mr Thomas
I was not around when Herbert Morrison was in his pomp, but I grew up when Shirley Porter was leader of Westminster City Council. Everybody remembers the sad reality of what she sought to do and, indeed, the embarrassment that Conservative Members felt at the time. Requiring a like-for-like replacement of housing association properties that are sold off in each borough in London is a sensible way to—
The Chair
Order. Mr Smith, I see that you are looking at the clock. You are quite right. We will adjourn until 2 pm.