Defence Procurement: Small and Medium-sized Enterprises

Fred Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 28th January 2025 Westminster Hall

[Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairship, Mr Stringer. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Aycliffe and Spennymoor (Alan Strickland) for securing this important debate. He is a huge champion for SMEs in his constituency and for national security in general.

I will begin by pointing out that defence primes are not evil. They do not set out to harm British national security. They do amazing things, and some of the things we are proudest of in Britain—sovereign capabilities —are delivered by those primes. It is no surprise that a huge proportion of defence spending goes to them, because some of the capabilities that they deliver—things that give us our unique edge in the world—are the most expensive things on the British balance sheet.

Primes do not have to be negative in the context of SMEs either, because they can offer SMEs something that we all know is missing: the ability to communicate with the Government. By joining with primes, SMEs are sometimes able to advertise their ability to the Government in a way that they would not be able to otherwise.

[Richard Foord]

To reinforce the hon. Member’s point, the way that Supacat has teamed up with Babcock in Plymouth in recent years to scale up its skilled workforce by 60% is an example of what he is describing.

[Fred Thomas]

The hon. Member is absolutely correct. It is not quite in my constituency—it is in the neighbouring constituency, Plymouth Sutton and Devonport—but I agree.

In terms of SMEs, primes can also offer a service to the Government and the Ministry of Defence. If we had a massive change in system, which would be extremely hard to execute, and the MOD was suddenly able to procure directly from SMEs across the country, we would have an enormous challenge of integrating the different capabilities into a usable platform. Half of the things would not be able to talk to each other; they would be made to do their one task and we would then try to put on top of them a second radar system or some piece of satellite that could speak down to whatever comms link we were using. That is enormously expensive. However, primes can do that integration. They can go to the Government and say, “You have a demand signal to do something,” rather than to have a particular capability—to monitor the North sea, for example—and then go out to the SMEs in different constituencies that hon. Members have highlighted so fantastically, gather various bits of capability and knit that into one big package to sell to the Government. That would feel more expensive and slower to the Government, but it could be cheaper in the long term, in some instances.

That said, I and colleagues are overwhelmed almost daily by individuals in the UK defence industry reaching out on LinkedIn or by email, begging the Government to listen to what they are offering. They are patriotic people who think they can save us money and give us strategic advantage by delivering a piece of capability, when we currently spend obscene amounts of money on something that sometimes does not work well or produce the desired effect. I would love the Minister to give us a sense of what the Government are going to do differently from previous Governments to actively offer a forum for those SMEs to pitch their capabilities. I am immensely proud of the Secretary of State and the Minister who joins us today for their work so far—

[Graham Stringer (in the Chair)]

Order.

Fiscal Policy: Defence Spending

Fred Thomas Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Luke Pollard]

That is not a matter for the Ministry of Defence and it is not within my portfolio, but if the hon. Gentleman writes to me, I will ensure Northern Ireland Office officials respond to him. However, I do not think there will be strong support for such action from much of the House.

[Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)]

On our journey to increasing defence spending, it is crucial that we keep the public on side, especially given our dire financial inheritance from the Conservative party and the hollowed-out state of our armed forces, as Conservative Members have acknowledged. That is why I welcome the Government’s break from tradition in informing this House and the British people about their steps to deploy a nuclear submarine to respond to Yantar, the Russian spy boat, along with the Plymouth-based RFA Proteus. What steps will the Government take in the future, over the coming weeks and months, to keep the British public informed, so that they stay on side as we increase defence spending to respond to the threat from Russia?

[Luke Pollard]

I thank my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour for his question. He is right that last week we declassified information about the activities of the Russian spy ship Yantar, including revealing details of the surfacing of a Royal Navy submarine to deter the Yantar’s activities loitering above our critical national infrastructure. It is absolutely right that this Government make the case that warfare has changed, especially when it comes to the protection of our critical underwater infrastructure. Making the case that we have formidable abilities, but also being clear in the SDR about how we will invest in those capabilities alongside our allies, is essential. The SDR will be published in the spring, when I am sure he will be able to see more about that.

Defence Programmes Developments

Fred Thomas Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

The statement means no change to the available amphibious capability, because, in practice, Albion and Bulwark had been mothballed. They are out of action, and there were no plans for them to sail again until they were to be taken out of service a decade into the future. This position allows us to focus more quickly on the more modern, more flexible capabilities we will need for the future. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on becoming a member of the Defence Committee. I am sure that if he is at the Committee sitting tomorrow morning, he will pursue this matter further.

[Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)]

A bit of this debate should be about honesty. If the Ministry of Defence were to step forward and say, “We want to modernise and be able to buy kit at scale and at pace, but we have a limited budget,” it would just be being honest and realistic to say that we have to let some things go.

With my Royal Marines background, I first went on Bulwark in 2017 on a training exercise, learning how to plan and execute raiding operations. I have fond memories of the ship, as do many in the Royal Marines, but that exercise was not conducted at sea; it was conducted with Bulwark alongside in Devonport, where it has remained for a number of years. Even then, we were told, “You will go not on this ship at sea. It will not happen.” People knew that at the time, so can we be honest?

On Plymouth and Devonport, where Albion and Bulwark are, and HMS Westminster, which the Secretary of State has also mentioned, may I ask him how the jobs and workers in Plymouth will be protected? With new submarines coming forward at huge scale, can we talk about the investment in Plymouth required—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. I call the Secretary of State.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Fred Thomas Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 18th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)]

I welcome the Bill: it is great news. I left full-time service only last year, and it is fantastic to see the pledges that I hoped the Government would fulfil being brought—I hope—into law.

I first encountered these proposals last year when we were joined by Eva Högl, the German armed forces commissioner, in the House for a panel event, only a couple of weeks after I had left full-time service and only one week after my selection as the Labour parliamentary candidate for Plymouth Moor View. It was an exciting moment, but the appointment of an Armed Forces Commissioner seemed very far away. It seemed to be something very positive that the Germans had and that we should have, but to do it would require a Labour Government, and we did not know when the election would be. All that has now come about: we have that Labour Government and we are committed to delivering an Armed Forces Commissioner, and it is great that we are doing so.

I commend the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats for the way in which they are approaching the Bill, and for the collegiate atmosphere. I know I speak for many Labour colleagues when I say that matters relating to the welfare of the armed forces and veterans are over-politicised in this country, and approaching them as one House is extremely positive. I hope that the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire) will be encouraged by the extent to which the Labour party is holding up the German commissioner as a model. For one thing, Eva Högl is a woman, and for another, she has not served in the military. I am sure that those points will be taken into consideration when the Government make their appointment.

As the Bill makes clear, one of the commissioner’s aims will be to promote the welfare of serving personnel and their families, including, as has been mentioned, bereaved families. Another—the second of the functions listed in the Bill—is to improve

“the public’s understanding of the welfare issues faced”

by serving personnel. That is an excellent step, because it will deal with something that holds back serving people, particularly those who are drafted into a new community—anyone who has been in the military will have experienced this—where they have no roots laid down. They are at the mercy of whatever their camp or base can provide. It may be possible for them to obtain military housing in the area, but they may be on camp. Beyond that, they can play a part in local politics and local government, whether it is a parish council or a town council. It can be very challenging for serving personnel to understand and communicate with local government, and I was pleased to hear Members say that many councils have run positive schemes involving armed forces champions and their own armed forces covenants.

In Plymouth—which I represent along with the Minister for the Armed Forces, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard)—we have a fantastic Plymouth City Council armed forces champion scheme. If Members do not know about it, I urge them to look at it, because I know from speaking to residents that it has had a massive effect for veterans and serving personnel. One of the questions that the Government will face in respect of the Bill is “What is the relationship between the armed forces commissioner and local government—and, as a third party, the tri-service military?” Yes, listening is important, but doing is also important. We need to understand how the commissioner can bring about solutions and outcomes for residents and, obviously, for serving personnel.

The Chair of the Defence Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi), mentioned reservists, and I know that they have been mentioned before. When we look closely at the Bill, however, we see that anyone who is subject to “service law”, or military law, will be entitled to access to the armed forces commissioner. Reservists—and, as of last year, I am a proud Royal Marines reservist—are subject to military law when they are serving, but not when they are not on duty. That needs to be clarified. To maximise reservists’ output, which I know the Ministry of Defence is keen to do, we must ensure that they feel wrapped up in the system, not just operationally and not just in training, but in that welfare sense. When will they have access to the commissioner? Will it just be on a Wednesday night when they are in their detachment, or will it be throughout the week? Obviously the answer should be “throughout the week”, and I urge the Govt to commit themselves to that.

Finally, I want to commend the Secretary of State, who has briefly left the Chamber. In the military, people are often taught about having the courage of their convictions. Having an armed forces commissioner who will report to Parliament annually will not be easy for the Secretary of State, because the commissioner is unlikely to report solely good findings every year; in fact, quite the opposite. He or she will probably point out the things that we need to be doing. That is good, because it is the sign of a strong, confident leadership that we are willing to appoint people who will point out flaws in the system that will be difficult and potentially expensive to solve.

All in all, I massively welcome the concept of an Armed Forces Commissioner, and the Bill. There are some detailed questions to which we would love to know the answers, and I look forward to hearing those in due course.

Ukraine

Fred Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

We provide Ukraine with the weaponry and support to defend its country, freedom and people. There is a consistency in that and there is no bar to Ukraine striking Russian military targets, so long as that is consistent with international humanitarian law and part of the proper defence of the country. I spoke about the long-range drones and the successful attacks they have been making—defensive attacks, but nevertheless on military targets in Russia. It is for the Ukrainians to determine how best to defend their country, and we will support them in whatever ways we can.

[Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)]

I warmly welcome the £2.26 billion of aid announced today. It is great news for those fighting for democracy in Europe and a day of low morale in the Kremlin—it is fantastic. The Ukrainians might well use some of the money to continue to innovate at pace. Every few weeks they create new cutting-edge and adaptive technologies to use in the fight against Putin. Will we learn from our friends in Ukraine and ensure that we, as a country, invest in our own small and medium-sized defence enterprises, so that we can have the same output in the future?

[John Healey]

While there has been no change in the basis on which we provide military aid to Ukraine, there is a change in the approach we take not just to providing aid but to producing some of the military equipment and ammunition. Our challenge now is to take the lessons of what we have demonstrated can be done to support Ukraine to equip our own forces better to fight in the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Fred Thomas Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

I do not think the right hon. Gentleman heard me; I said earlier that the Foreign Secretary had said the other day that the detail of the costs and the agreement will be set out properly before this House when it comes to consider and debate the treaty.

[Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)]

Devonport dockyard in Plymouth is where the UK repairs and maintains our submarine fleet. In future, there will be even more submarines, and we will need even more infrastructure for that upkeep, so what conversations is the Secretary of State having with the Secretaries of State responsible for housing and transport to deliver that infrastructure to support our increased submarine programme?