Benefit Sanctioning

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Tuesday 2nd December 2014 Westminster Hall

[Esther McVey]

The Labour party has already been brought to task by the UK Statistics Authority for talking about a significant increase in zero-hours contracts that did not happen. The contracts began in 2000 as the minimum wage was brought in. We know the number of people on them, and for the vast majority they work. When they do not work, we have not allowed exclusive contracts. We are doing something that the previous Government did not do. We want to ensure that people have a good job—not just any old job, but a job they want so that they have a career and progress. We know that three quarters of the jobs created since 2010 are full-time. I hope that answers the question.

The other key issue—for me, probably the most important thing the Government have done—is that fewer children are now growing up in workless households.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I will not give way. I am setting the scene. I will answer the questions raised, and then I will take some more interventions, but not at the moment.

We know that the best route out of poverty is to have a job and that children born into a household where no one works are three times more likely to be in poverty. This year, we have reduced that number by 390,000. We are talking about poverty, and about support and help for people to get a job and to move forward. The Government have done significantly more than anybody else to support people on their way and into work. That is the background of sanctions and why they exist, and what we must do to meet and match and provide support.

We have introduced the youth contract for young people, with an extra 250,000 extra work experience places, and sector-based work academies. This year, we have seen the biggest fall in youth unemployment—by 250,000—since records began. We are fundamentally turning the lives of those people around, and sanctions are a tiny part of a massive system of support.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Monday 3rd November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is quite right. The latest reports from the British Chambers of Commerce show that businesses are feeling more confident and are taking on more people. In the north-west, an additional 109,000 people are in work this year. He knows only too well how important it is to get a job that can lead to career progression. He is a working-class Tory who got himself into a job, did a correspondence course in law and then set up his own legal practice. We want those opportunities for everyone.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

5. What change there has been in the number of people claiming employment and support allowance over the last two years.

Separated Families Initiative

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Tuesday 21st October 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Streeter, to serve under your chairmanship. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions could not be here today, but I am happy to respond as best I can, and if I do not have the full information, I will write to hon. Members individually. I thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) for securing this important debate. As a former family lawyer, she takes a close interest in the matter. I welcome the opportunity to talk about the support that the Government are putting in place for separated families, including through our child maintenance system.

Before I explain what we are doing and what we are putting in place, it is important to look at the present system—the Child Support Agency. We may view it with rose-coloured spectacles but, as many hon. Members have pointed out, how many people have come to our surgeries complaining that it does not work and has not been helpful? How many people have said they have never seen the money they hoped they would receive? That system has not functioned since it was put in place; only about half of parents receive child maintenance, and we remember the significant IT failings at the beginning.

The system is expensive to run, costing almost £500 million; it awards about £1 billion. It has complex calculation rules and a slow assessment process. We must take that on board when talking about it. On top of that, it never really put the child at the centre, nor did it resolve conflict.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Was the system not set up because the preceding arrangements, which were a mixture of people trying to make their own arrangements and the courts intervening, also had severe failures? This is a complex subject that requires a lot of care and attention. We should not necessarily think that the problem lies in having a statutory system, although that seems to be the Government’s view.

[Esther McVey]

No, we have to look at what has worked throughout this journey, so that we can use whatever worked with the CSA and on the ground with families. We must go into the process knowing that, without a shadow of doubt, it is complex. This is about families, emotions and relationships that are not working, but what are we trying to do? We all agree that the sad reality is that too many people are affected by separation and, too often, it is the children who suffer the consequences. In Britain today, there are 2.5 million separated families, and one in three children live in households in which their mother or father no longer lives at home. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) said, the cost of family breakdown is £48 billion, and he spoke about parental alienation; what are we going to do there, too?

This Government believe passionately in strong families who can provide the stability that is vital to enable children to thrive. The family environment provides the foundation for raising a child, and we are committed to supporting safe and loving family environments. When parents’ relationships break down, we want to help parents to work together more effectively, so it is important to reduce levels of conflict after a separation and to minimise the negative impacts on the children. That is key. As I think we have all agreed today, this is about moving the child to the centre of what we are doing and focusing on their needs.

We do not need to increase conflict; we want to minimise that as best we can. Where we can help people to have a more conducive family environment, that has to be key, because conflict between parents puts children at a greater risk of anxiety, depression and antisocial behaviour, but when children continue to have positive relationships with both parents, they are more likely to do better at school, stay out of trouble, have higher self-esteem and develop healthier relationships as an adult. That was part of the “Impact of Family Breakdown on Children’s Well-Being” evidence review, so that is the context in which we have to view the changes. How do we support those young children going forward? How do we do the best for them?

That is why we have invested some £14 million in the Help and Support for Separated Families initiative, which has various parts to it: the Sorting out Separation online information tool; the HSSF mark; telephony training to promote parental collaboration; and the innovation fund. On the Sorting out Separation service, we have looked at how many people are using that and going on to the website. Some 205,000 visitors have accessed it since it was launched, 120,000 of those being unique visitors. That is close to what we had hoped for, and not to the numbers mentioned by the hon. Member for Edinburgh East.

[Esther McVey]

I have spoken to people who use the site, and I have been on the site myself. There is a lot of information that people can get from it, and there are names and links to the various organisations that they might want to go to. It is not a site where people would do everything at once. They would jot the names down, follow up what they want to, and speak to friends and to other people who would signpost them to the relevant places. What I am explaining is that people do not need to link through; they could get all the information just by going through the site. However, the actual linking through is nearly double what the hon. Member for Edinburgh East said; it is over 9,000. I think we need to look at this in the round. Could people get all the information they want? Could they go back to Google and put in the names that they got from that website? Yes, they could. There are different things that people can go to via that website.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Although I would acknowledge that people might want to go back and do it later, one test of a good website—anybody who is designing one or using one will look at this—is whether it is click-through, and how many people do that. Opening up the website up is not sufficient. Why would we think, “It is all right; we expect people to write it all down, and then type it all in,” when it would be just as quick to go through and get that information? Surely the Minister has to look at that and say, “This may be failing.”

[Esther McVey]

As I said, I have talked to people I know who have used the site, and I have used it myself. The number of click-throughs is nearly double what has been claimed. Equally, it is a usable site in its current form, and people can get all the information that they want from it, then and there. People might reflect and, later on, type all the information into a Google search, so I do not necessarily follow the logic that everybody straight away would have to click through. I have done research among people who have used it, and they did not feel that they needed to do it that way. We are measuring all those who have accessed the site, unique visitors and click-throughs.

We have already begun work on improvements and enhancements to the site. One of those, which my right hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions talked about, was optimising the service online, making it easier for people to reach out and go to that website. Search engine optimisation also means that users can find the relevant pages without necessarily going via the homepage. More people are coming to Sorting out Separation, clicking beyond the homepage and spending more time on specific pages. If they are spending more time on specific pages, that shows that the information has reached out and is speaking to them, and that they are taking more time to read what is on the page.

There are now over 350 HSSF mark holders; the overwhelming majority of those have been awarded the mark via our five umbrella organisations, which is a real indication that the appetite for the mark remains high, and we continue to receive applications from organisations that wish to be assessed. It is particularly reassuring to see the diversity of organisations keen to carry the mark, and the range of excellent support and expertise for families. I want to pay tribute to all the organisations that do valuable work to support families at what can be, as we all know, a very distressing time.

On the question of promotion, mark holders have told us that they are best placed to promote the mark to their clients. It is encouraging that these organisations want to support the HSSF initiative, and we are working closely with them through regular forums to develop a promotion strategy that can take into account the pivotal role that they play in targeting properly the promotion activity, in explaining to parents what the mark stands for and what to look out for, and in parents knowing what they are getting when they see that mark.

The HSSF telephony training is designed to make sure that separated parents get consistent information, messaging and onward support. It is not a network in the traditional sense of one phone line supported by one piece of infrastructure, but over 300 agents have received the tailored training, meaning that the benefits of collaboration can be promoted to parents, regardless of which of the partner organisations’ helplines parents choose to use.

The bulk of the HSSF investment—some £10 million—is being spent on the innovation fund to support separated families, with the aim of helping parents who are going through separation to work together to resolve that conflict. The 17 projects have collectively engaged with 53,500 parents up to September 2014. The hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash) asked whether we were reaching out to those who have been separated longest, who might have the most trying of relationships, and yes, indeed, that is what we are trying to do. We have gone for really innovative projects, looking for greater engagement. Those are the kinds of people whom we will look to help. The hon. Lady also asked about a specific case. I am happy to get my officials to look at that case, see what is happening, and see how we can resolve that issue.

Hon. Members will know that one of the projects, the family decision making service, funds three key Scotland-based organisations to work much more closely together to enable parents to get help on the wide range of issues that they face during separation. For example, a father recently called Children 1st in Scotland for help. He wanted to know about his rights, and to find out what he should do with regards to arranging contact with his son. Children 1st advised him of the family decision making service and asked if he wished for further advice. The father agreed that he did, and he was transferred to the Scottish Child Law Centre, after which the organisations worked together to provide the help that he needed on all the issues that he faced.

This is what we are trying to do—to get all the agencies working together to best provide the support that is needed. In these instances, the information that we are getting back is that the system has helped. People have managed to follow a clear process and have got the result that they needed. This method of transfer ensured that the father I referred to did not need to repeat himself, and that all the elements of the situation were dealt with through one joined-up service. As a result, the father said that he left feeling clear about his options and very confident about setting up an amicable, family-based parenting arrangement that covered finance and his contact arrangements with his son. Those are the outcomes that we want to pursue and obtain. We want people to be able to follow the path that that family followed, although we know that everyone’s circumstances are different.

As part of these interventions, most projects try to work with parents to establish parenting arrangements, which include child maintenance. Measuring the success of the projects in helping parents to establish those types of arrangements will form part of the evaluation. Evaluation will be crucial to determining the learning from the projects, and we are in the process of procuring an external evaluator to ensure that there is an independent assessment of the projects. The independent evaluator will assess the performance of each project separately, and those results will be published after the projects close and sufficient time has passed to analyse and assess performance. We do, however, have some good news stories about what has happened so far to help families.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The Minister appears to be telling us that the process of finding an evaluator is still ongoing. Can she say how close that is to being done? We are virtually in November, and many of the projects are due to finish at the end of March next year; that is a very short time in which to carry out an evaluation, and it is very unusual to be evaluating so late in the process, not having set up the arrangement in advance. Is it true that part of the reason for the hold-up was the Department for Work and Pensions having concerns about data protection? Will it be possible to scale up the projects in any sensible way soon after March next year?

[Esther McVey]

I can tell the hon. Lady that we will provide further details as part of our overall evaluation strategy, which we expect to publish by the end of this year.

I was giving details of what was working, what we know is happening and various innovative projects. For example, a Birmingham project run by Malachi recently worked very closely with both the mother and the father of a boy who had been excluded from school because of bad behaviour, and who had not seen his father in three years. Now, following the intervention, the father spends time with his son regularly and contributes financially to the child’s household, and the child’s teacher has confirmed that his behaviour at school has dramatically improved. That is what we want to happen. Those are the outcomes that we want.

Of course this is about finances; we know that. The CSA was not necessarily providing that. We need to work with families and the child’s surroundings more generally, and get the father seeing the son. We need the son not to be excluded from school and to have better attendance, which will allow him a better education and support him later in life. It is right that a key strategy and raison d’être of this Government is fighting child poverty, and fighting poverty full stop. How do we go about that? It is through education. It is about getting people into work. It is about supporting the family. All these things have to be key, and not just now, for those parents who have made their decision. They have brought a child into the world; how do we as a society protect that child? That is the only way to prevent poverty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

As I said, we will provide further information on that, and hon. Members will have that by the end of the year.

A point was raised about the 38% drop in applications. Of course we felt that there would be a drop, but not that great. However, as the application fees have been in effect for less than four months, it would be imprudent to draw any meaningful conclusions from the early data—the data that we have so far. The Department will continue to monitor the rates of application to the 2012 scheme, but the correct time frame in which to consider the effects of the reforms will be in the 30-month review. That is what we have to continue to do. The overall objectives and aims were set out in our strategy, in the bids. That is what we are looking for. Of course the projects will be evaluated and monitored. As I said, we are hoping to bring that information to the House by the end of the year.

In addition to the help and support for separated families, it will be helpful to touch on the support available as part of our reforms to child maintenance. We know that after a relationship breakdown, most parents still want what is best for their children. It is increasingly the norm for parents to be doing what is right by their children and contributing to the children’s upbringing, even if they do not live with them any more. Central to our reforms of the child maintenance system is our belief that turning to the statutory service need not be the default position for all families. We do not believe that Government intervention in setting up a child maintenance arrangement is either necessary or beneficial in the majority of cases. It not only puts an unnecessary barrier between parents, but can increase conflict and reduce the incentive for them to work together.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I am grateful to the Minister for reiterating the Government’s position, which is what we have heard ever since the proposals were put into the Bill that became the Welfare Reform Act 2012. The aims are very clear. The issue is: is that happening? Is it working? Is the kind of support and advice that has been set up scalable? Are there any plans to fund this beyond next March?

[Esther McVey]

I will come to those points, but I believe that it is important that we put in context what we are doing, who we believe should be sorting out the arrangements and how best we can help these families—the mum and the dad—to put the arrangements in place. That is why we believe that family-based child maintenance arrangements are often the best option, and we want to encourage and support families to achieve those. We also recognise that separated parents will need a service that helps them to consider all their options in the light of the introduction of charging for the statutory child maintenance system and the process to close Child Support Agency cases, so, since November, the child maintenance options service has also become the gateway to the statutory child maintenance service. The gateway is flexible and personalised to each individual. It uses the same empathetic approach and is designed to ensure that parents can consider the full range of options, including making family-based child maintenance arrangements.

Where appropriate, the child maintenance options service promotes the benefits of making a family-based arrangement with parents, helps them to overcome the barriers that they face to working together, and provides them with the tools to make effective arrangements. The service also continues to signpost to other specialist sources of support.

The Government are committed to helping and supporting the family, which is why the HSSF initiative and child maintenance reforms are a key part of our overall social justice strategy. As part of that, we are bringing relationship support policy into one Department, with the DWP investing £30 million to deliver successfully marriage preparation, couples counselling and relationship education.

We will take forward recommendations from the family stability review. We will introduce perinatal pilots to provide information to expectant couples about the impact that having a baby will have on their relationship, as well as strategies on how to address conflict. All of that is part of a journey—having a family, and understanding those extra pressures and what will happen in a way that maintains family stability. The hope is that parents will not get to the point at which they are looking to separate and have to deal with the fallout from that. All this has to be part of an ongoing strategy.

We have also announced our plans for local family offer trials—

Jobcentre Plus

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Thursday 10th July 2014 Westminster Hall

[Esther McVey]

I appreciate the hon. Lady’s request, but she has just taken the question from the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field). I will not be taking questions until I have finished responding to everything. I appreciate what she is doing, but I will continue.

We are also increasing technology: we will be delivering wi-fi across all jobcentres, with 6,000 new access devices. All that is key in helping to get record numbers of people into work.

Many Members mentioned segmentation, which is, of course, important and one of our aims. How do we support people best, help them and target support at them? We looked closely at the Australian jobseeker classification instrument and tested it against our own version in 2010. We found that it was not accurate enough at predicting whether someone would become long-term unemployed. For every accurate prediction, it made two wrong predictions. For that reason, it was better for us to pursue what we were doing and make our system better.

That is why we have done things such as introduce the claimant commitment. We are getting people ready for work straight away and really focusing on day-one support so that we can see whether someone needs extra IT support or NVQ maths and English training. That is what we are now doing from day one so that we understand people’s ability, or perhaps lack of ability, and how to support them.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I presume that the hon. Lady wants to ask the question passed to her by her right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead, but go on.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I do not.

[Esther McVey]

Well, he has tried everyone else.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I wanted to ask this: to what extent is the claimant commitment really a substitute for a segmentation tool? Is the Minister now saying that she has given up on looking at such a tool?

[Esther McVey]

Nobody has given up. That is the whole thing about welfare to work—we continue trying and we continue pilots, to see how we can best support people who need to have a job. No, the claimant commitment is not a substitute, but what we have brought in to give both sides greater certainty and it is working very well. It is also about empowering the individual who is looking for a job. Equally importantly, within it we can look at what the barriers are. They could be disability or health barriers, but we would modify the claimant commitment to reflect what somebody needs to do, so that it really is tailor-made for them.

What we have seen with the claimant commitment is that, despite what has been said today about how people who work at Jobcentre Plus feel, actual engagement and positivity within the work force has gone up by six percentage points. Again, that has to be praised, as well as being a positive step in the right direction.

Many people today have brought up the issue of sanctions. We all know that, as the right hon. Member for East Ham said, sanctions have always been a part of the benefit system, ever since it began. We know that there is a balance to be struck between providing support and expecting claimants to meet the conditions for receiving benefit. What the Government have done more than ever before is to increase that support. The number of traineeships has gone up in the past year—by more than 39%, I think. We have changed the rules and regulations, so that it is not only 16 hours that someone has to do for their traineeship; the figure can go up to 30 hours. We are looking at these practical, pragmatic steps that can be taken. We are doing all these things.

We also know that more than 70% of claimants say they are more likely to follow the benefit rules because of the sanctions that might be applied to them. So claimants themselves know that sanctions are key. Academic studies from across Europe show that when there is a sanctions system and regime, people remain in work for longer too. All these things are key in what we are doing.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The hon. Lady has just thrown in a statistic about attitudes of claimants, saying that 70% of people say that sanctions will make them do things differently. Is that part of some published research? Is it perhaps part of the research that we still have not seen? If so, when are we going to see it?

[Esther McVey]

I will give the hon. Lady a copy of that research, and there are other debates—various debates—in which it has been used. I will provide her with that information if she would find that helpful.

Most claimants do not get sanctioned. In an average month in 2013, around 5% of jobseeker’s allowance claimants and fewer than 1% of employment and support allowance claimants were sanctioned. We know that those people who follow the rules and take up all the support—

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

We do, indeed.

We are concentrating on the hardest to help and focusing our efforts on them. As I have said, the Work programme is part of that and we have seen the results from the 1.5 million people who have gone on it: 550,000 have had a job start and 300,000 of those are in sustained jobs. Equally, our Help to Work programme is helping another 200,000 people, whom our coaches will be working with to assess their needs and refer them to further intensive support, whether daily signing or community work placement, to find out what limiting factors are not helping them into work. Is greater support needed? Is it about employability skills? Do they need more work skills? Those are the things that we are really trying to get to grips with, understand and reach out further on. Early trailblazing of this approach shows that continuing this support has a long-term positive impact on claimants. Participants spent less time on benefit and more time in work over a 21-month period.

Many questions have been asked. I shall answer some of those asked by the right hon. Member for East Ham. We have talked about good cause and personalisation, the claimant commitment and extra support, and about the whistleblowers. Yes, the Prime Minister met the Trussell Trust, as did I. I have also been to my local food bank. We will all agree—there is no doubt—that those organisations are doing a good job, supporting people, but we have to look at the bigger implications for society as a whole, which is why it was right that the Prime Minister met the Trussell Trust. We know that it was set up in what was regarded as a boom time, when things were going well, before 2007. That was back in 2002 and the organisation increased tenfold, just as it was setting up, up to 2010. It went to the then Labour Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, asking, “Would you signpost?”, but the Labour Secretary of State said, “We will not”, because the Government did not want it growing even bigger and did not want to help people out, because it was growing on the ground. However, when it approached the Secretary of State in this Government, he said, “I will signpost people to those, if need be, because you need to help people as best you can.”

So many things come into play, as the people who run food banks say: understanding how to cook; prioritisation of bills; debt; and debt cards. So many things are tangled up with this issue that we have to educate and support people, as well as doing things right in an emergency. However, this Government and Jobcentre Plus are getting it right on taking the first step to get people out of poverty, by any standard and according to all parties in the House, because we are seeing record rates of people getting into work.

[Sheila Gilmore]

rose—

[Stephen Timms]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

I have always agreed. I have met the Trussell Trust in my area and the food bank. We decided that the Prime Minister should meet him to discuss the issues.

We are increasing the percentage rate for our processing and getting more people into work.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I am afraid that I will not at the moment.

When we talk about a change in culture at Jobcentre Plus, about reputation and how people feel about doing their job, the response is that there has been a significant culture change, in that staff are, ever more than before, helping people who come through the door into training and into a job. With the claimant commitment, they are really personalising that support. Yes, there has been a culture change, for the benefit of everyone.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Is the Minister aware of considerable research evidence showing that people on low incomes are good at budgeting, and that her attitude—that many people need somehow to be taken by the hand and taught to do basic things, such as budgeting—is intensely patronising and quite unnecessary?

[Esther McVey]

I certainly do not believe that I have such an attitude. I disagree on that point.

The people who come into Jobcentre Plus need help and support, and we have been led by many of those who have been in debt and have not been so good at looking at their finances, for one reason or another. Perhaps some hon. Members in this Chamber have not always been great at looking at our budgets, or support, and may have been caught unawares, if not in work and if they had been expecting a wage and not had one. It does not matter whence you come; you can always have difficulties with finances, fall on tough times and be out of work.

I certainly do not have an attitude. I always say, “Don’t pass comment on anybody else. You haven’t walked 12 miles in their shoes,” and “There but for the grace of God go I.” I work on a completely different premise to the one suggested by the hon. Lady.

We are pushing ahead with changes to our welfare system and those changes are already paying off. We are rolling out universal credit. By 2016, all new benefit claimants will be for universal credit. The majority of existing claimants will move on to UC by 2017.

I thank the Chair of the Committee and praise all the people who work in our Jobcentre Plus offices.

Universal Credit

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Monday 7th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I have listened to everything that has been said and I have a hefty set of answers to give, but let me put everything in context by starting with what I hope we can all agree on. In between the doom and gloom that swept across the Chamber from Opposition Members, they seemed to agree that the benefits system needs to be changed, and this Government are bringing about the fundamental reform that is needed. The biggest reform in 60 years will ensure that we reward work, support aspiration, encourage responsibility and help those who need it most. As my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) said, this piece of work is of national importance. We cannot run away from making the significant changes that are so necessary; it is because they are so imperative that we are making them.

Universal credit is at the heart of our reform. Its aim is to make work pay by ensuring that claimants are better off in work than on benefits. It will promote personal responsibility by ensuring that people actively seek work and increase earnings. At the same time, we will continue to provide support for those who need it most. Universal credit will have a positive impact on claimants. Up to 300,000 more people will be in work, and about 3 million more households will gain from universal credit, with an average gain of £177 per month. We are investing £600 million in child care support, with about 100,000 extra families becoming eligible for such support for the first time. From April 2016, 85% of eligible costs will be covered by the child care rate. Alongside that, thousands of disabled adults and children will receive more support, including a higher rate of support for all children who are registered blind.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

If I may carry on for a while, I will then answer the hon. Lady’s question.

I want to thank the Select Committee for continuing to support the policy objectives of universal credit—improving incentives to work and, as has to be key, smoothing the transition from benefits into work. Public and parliamentary debate has focused on IT systems, and IT is an important enabler, but universal credit is much more than that; it is a transformational change that is building a welfare system fit for the 21st century. It is already making a difference to people and their lives: we have stronger work incentives, there is more support from work coaches and universal credit claimants are spending twice as much time looking for work because they have the extra support.

We know that 90% of universal credit claimants are claiming online. Many Members spoke about the IT system.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Is it not the case that very high levels of jobseeker’s allowance claimants are claiming online anyway, so that is not really to do with universal credit? Is it not also the case that the number of hours people are spending looking for work has nothing uniquely to do with universal credit, because the Department has rolled out the claimant commitment far beyond those who are in receipt of universal credit?

[Esther McVey]

Obviously more people are going online because that is key to all our changes. When we were providing support during the roll-out, we were enabling people to get online and use IT. That was part of the system. Obviously it is working and more people are using IT and getting online. As for the claimant commitment, that is an integral precursor of universal credit. We had to ensure that all of our 26,300 members of staff knew how that worked. Of course they are working with JSA claimants, but that is one of the changes towards universal credit that we have put into place.

Members have spoken about the IT system. My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South, who has worked so ably on such systems, spoke with much knowledge on this matter. I am afraid that there was no knowledge from Opposition Members on this matter. We all agree that it is a complex IT system. I believe that there is a logic that we can all follow in what is happening. We are ensuring that it is slow, it is steady and it is working. The IT system is probably best described as a series of component parts. Some of it will stay—that is known as the legacy system—some of it will be built on, some of it will be plugged in and other bits will be newly built and form part of the enhanced digital solution. As we are rolling out the system, we will constantly be learning and working on it to inform the enhanced digital solution. It is like a pincer effect: we are rolling out what we have and learning as we go along to inform the enhanced digital solution.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Monday 31st March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. He is right. As I have said, new enterprise generation stretches across the UK. Long-term youth unemployment in his constituency is down by 28%. I hope it will go down a little bit more and reach the national average—youth unemployment is down by 32% nationally—but a lot of good things are going on across the country.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

22. Despite all the talk of new jobs, 2.3 million people are still unemployed, only 58% of whom are on the jobseeker’s allowance claimant count, which suggests that it is not the generosity of benefits that is keeping people out of work. What steps are the Government taking to get that number down?

[Esther McVey]

I do not know whether the hon. Lady was smiling when she was describing all the good news that is happening. There is a record number of people into employment—over 30 million—youth unemployment has gone down for six consecutive months, and there is a record number of women in work. Perhaps she did not hear that, which is why I have repeated the good news that our long-term economic plan is working.

Under-Occupancy Penalty (North-West)

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I think it is the first time, so I am delighted to be here. I congratulate the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing the debate.

Having listened to everything that has been said, there is one thing on which we can agree: this is about homes and people’s lives. This is about people and their local communities and what we can do best to support them. It is frequently forgotten, however, that it is also about the people who are not fortunate enough to be in a house of the size they need, whether because they are on a waiting list or because they live in an overcrowded home. At the same time, we must think about the people who are paying the bill. Taxpayers are funding the homes of people who may have extra bedrooms when they themselves may not.

We have thought about the matter in every which way and from everybody’s viewpoint and have asked ourselves how we best solve the situation. More than 300,000 people are in overcrowded homes and 1.7 million people are on waiting lists, yet there are 1 million spare rooms in people’s accommodation. We have to think about that. In Wigan, there are 3,500 families or more on the waiting list and 1,500 in overcrowded accommodation. I believe that the hon. Member for Makerfield said that 3,300 were affected by the removal of the spare room subsidy. Which group should be given more consideration? We cannot say that; they must all be considered when we decide what we shall do.

There is a conundrum, as we all agree, but how are we to deal with it? We cannot brush it under the carpet—it would have to be a huge carpet—and continue as if there is not an issue. We must deal with it, and we are confronting it. Of course, we know that there has been less house building, and we know the issues associated with that. God ain’t making no more land, and getting planning permission is very difficult. Yet Labour, during its reign, let more than 2 million people into a crowded island. We must cover all the angles and dimensions. We have said that we are putting £4.5 billion into the building of social housing. We are building another 177,000 by 2015. All those things are positive, although there is always more that can be done.

When houses with spare rooms were let, people were making to the tune of £500 million a year. Rent on that was being collected from taxpayers, who were paying that bill. It was unfortunate that those social landlords were getting £500 million a year extra for bedrooms that were not deemed to be occupied under the criteria brought in by Labour in 2008.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The Minister mentioned the building of affordable homes. A problem with the policy that the Government are currently implementing is the fact that they plan to charge 80% of market rent for them. There will be a substantial increase to the overall housing benefit bill. When the Work and Pensions Committee visited Luton in Bedfordshire, the housing association explained not only that it was obliged to set the rents at 80% of market rent to get a grant to build; it was also obliged as part of that arrangement to turn over some of its existing stock to such higher rents, as it became available. Government policies are likely to put up the housing benefit bill faster than the policy we are debating is likely to reduce it.

[Esther McVey]

I have heard various things—I will say that they are scare stories, because we have heard them before—about what would happen, and they have not happened. In fact—although at the moment this is just anecdotal—in the private sector house prices and rents are coming down, despite much of what the Opposition say; that is actually happening in Wales, which I visited last week.

What are the local authorities and housing associations doing? Some are redesignating homes with respect to their size. Knowsley is doing that. Salford is bringing empty houses into use and converting commercial property units into affordable homes. People are starting to build one-bedroom homes for the first time in a long time. Who would have believed it? Some people and areas are still building three-bedroom homes, despite knowing that they are not needed. One-bedroom homes are needed; they should constitute 60% of new builds. It is incredible that people who do not understand the stock still feel incentivised to build the wrong homes, because they will be paid for the bedrooms, whether they are used or not. That must all change.

We should all recognise the inequality in allowing social sector tenants full housing benefit for a spare bedroom while denying it to private sector tenants. The Opposition’s position seems to be that the policy is pernicious and evil when it affects social tenants, but acceptable when it affects private tenants; Labour introduced that policy in 2008. As has been pointed out many times before, there are two coherent positions: one is the Government’s, which asks anyone on benefits to contribute towards the cost of an extra bedroom; the other is to give anyone on benefits full housing benefit regardless of the size of the house that they need or whether or not they are under-occupying their property. The Opposition’s position is incoherent. It states that social tenants should not have to pay towards an extra bedroom, but private tenants should. We cannot have that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore]

The Minister is being very generous in giving way. She has raised issues about spare rooms—it is an emotive phrase. However, some organisations have argued that, if a room is not genuinely spare—for example, if a couple must sleep apart for health reasons, have medical equipment to store, or have a specially adapted house, so that it would be ludicrous to expect them to leave—they should simply be exempted. Those rooms are surely not really spare.

Also, even if the original intention of the policy was to bring parity with the private rented sector—I do not think it was, because it was never mentioned—an amendment was tabled in the other place, and probably also in this House, to the effect that the rule would be applied only if someone refused a reasonable offer of alternative housing. So it would not be retrospective. Is the Minister willing to consider either of those issues?

[Esther McVey]

We have put forward a full array of discretionary housing payments and exemptions, which I shall come to. However, I want to point out what Labour intended, when it was in power. Despite today’s claims about how it would have dealt with things, we know what is on the record:

“We hope to implement a flat rate housing benefit system in the social sector, similar to that anticipated in the private rented sector... We aim to extend our reforms to the social rented sector as soon as rent restructuring and increased choice have created an improved market.”—[Official Report, 19 January 2004; Vol. 416, c. 1075W.]

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I have given way a lot, and have answers to provide. Despite the bluster and fluster and cries of “We cannot do it,” that policy would have been implemented by the Opposition.

We have provided for the most vulnerable, including disabled children who cannot share because of their disability; foster children; overnight non-resident carers for claimants and their partners; and live-in carers. We have also ensured that tenants can retain a bedroom for an adult child who is in the armed forces and deployed on operations. We have established support, and in addition the courts have confirmed that we have satisfied our equality duties by making additional discretionary housing payment funding available. In total we have provided discretionary housing payment funding of £180 million in this financial year. The Government have given local authorities the money to help people in need. In fact, we have gone further, and within the year we have allocated an extra £20 million for which the 380 local authorities in Great Britain could bid.

What happened with that extra money? Not all the local authorities bid for the extra £20 million that we put in place because they did not feel the need to, and only £13 million was taken, meaning that £7 million was not. Yet again, there were screams of protest from the Opposition about what was needed, but the money had been put in place and yet not all of it was utilised. In my local area, for example, Wirral council still had £180,000 to spend on discretionary housing payments by the end of the month. That was made up of £30,000 left over and an extra £150,000 that had been granted.

We are getting all that information back from people and finding out what they need, so I take great exception to the accusation that this policy was developed on the back of a fag packet—I think that is what the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said.

Inherited Social Housing Tenancies

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Monday 24th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is right; no, I cannot. It is only when we meet people who are living in overcrowded accommodation, or who are on a waiting list with their children, and we look at the conditions they are living in, that we realise what a lamentable mess we had been left with and how we have to clear it up. How can we justify 1 million spare rooms when other people are sometimes crammed together in a room? So my hon. Friend is correct in what she says.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

As the Minister has been able to expand on a possible policy area, I would point out that nobody in the private rented sector was ever expected to find £14 or £28 out of their pocket, each week, retrospectively. The Office for Budget Responsibility has said that housing benefit spend will continue to rise. Has the additional spending from this loophole been factored into that, or is that going to be another increase that is not in this Government’s forecast?

[Esther McVey]

The money is obviously in the forecast; I mentioned that we put £20 million in place for local authorities but they did not need it—they needed only £13 million—and so that will come into play. As I also said, we all need to get the housing issues for people across the country right, and we are dealing with them in a way that is fair and proportionate.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Monday 13th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is another Conservative Member who is doing a great deal in his area. He has got together 2,000 people from his local community—job seekers and businesses—and has found everyone work. He is right: youth unemployment has fallen by 28% over the year, and long-term youth unemployment in his area has fallen by 26%. The new enterprise allowance scheme is expanding—2,000 young people have already set up businesses in that way—and we are investing more money by extending the scheme until December 2015.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

The December report of the Office for Budget Responsibility increased its projection for increased spend on housing benefit by £1.8 billion between March and December and attributes half of that to people in employment who will have to claim housing benefit. Is not the truth that because of low hours and wages, savings in one respect are simply popping out as increased spending in another?

[Esther McVey]

That is not the case. We want to look at the numbers. If we look at the spend on housing benefit, we see that it doubled under Labour from £12 billion to £24 billion. What we have got to do is look in the round at those people who are in overcrowded housing and those on waiting lists as well as those who have got houses that are bigger than they necessarily need and yet the taxpayer is funding all of it. The figures are right: the cost doubled under Labour’s watch.

Food Banks

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Wednesday 18th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

The Trussell Trust started under Labour—it hid that away—and the removal of the spare room subsidy in the private sector started under the Labour Government in 2008. Rewriting history does not work. The British public want to know the truth: those on the Labour Benches ruined the economy and we are getting it back on track.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I am very grateful to the Minister. On the one hand, she has spent a long time telling us that there are now many more people in work, although the rate of employment has still not returned to pre-recession levels. But if —[Interruption.]

[Sheila Gilmore]

If everything is going so well, why since 2010 has there been such a substantial increase in the number of people using food banks? The only explanation can be the Government’s changes to welfare policy.

[Esther McVey]

Tomorrow, when Hansard comes out, we can read the full explanation, because hon. Members probably do not want me to go through it again. Actually, it was because of the crash, the overspend, the personal debt and the public debt left to us by those on the Opposition Benches.

Another issue that has been raised is zero-hours contracts. They happened under Labour: the numbers in 2013 are the same as the numbers in 2000. In fact, the number of zero-hours contracts went up by 75% from 2005 to 2009, something that those on the Opposition Benches did absolutely zero about. It is the Leader of the Opposition’s Doncaster council that presides over the biggest number, within his council. Again, there is a lot of fluster and a lot of bluster. The Opposition did nothing in government and they are doing nothing to control their Labour councils, yet we are now picking up the pieces.

Housing Benefit

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Tuesday 12th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

I would like to raise the example of Susannah from south Yorkshire. She had had four children and did not necessarily want to move. In the end, she looked around for six months and moved. She said, “Actually, I wished I’d had that support earlier, because now I am in an area I prefer. I have downsized. I have a smaller house, which means that my cost of living is less. I am paying less on cleaning and less on heating, and I can live within my means.” I have a list of people like that. I ask Opposition Members to work with their local authorities and their constituents to help them downsize so they can live within their means. I know that living within one’s means is not something Opposition Members understand, but that is what we all have to do as a country.

[Sheila Gilmore]

At what point, when the costs of this policy outweigh the savings, will the Government admit that they have simply got it wrong?

[Esther McVey]

We are planning to save money and move people into the right houses, something the Labour Government failed to do. They left people in the wrong houses and never supported them, and lived beyond their means.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Monday 14th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

What I will say is that we are putting in place support for those housing associations and local authorities that are finding that they cannot come to terms with the issue, although they have had three years to do something and have failed to do so. I would like to talk about the 1.8 million people on housing waiting lists and the 250,000 people in overcrowded accommodation, whom nobody had looked after. We are looking after everybody and supporting them as best we can with discretionary housing payments.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Tenants who are not on housing benefits and pensioners are now being affected by the bedroom tax, because councils such as mine are being forced to look at either rent rises or cutting their modernisation programmes because of the impact of the bedroom tax. Will the Minister now look at that again and stop this nonsense, which is not even saving money overall?

[Esther McVey]

There is one point to clarify: pensioners are exempt. If people could get the facts right, it would work better.

Remploy

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Monday 10th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

The Minister’s view seems to be that we should equalise downwards and that, if some disabled people are not working while others are employed in Remploy factories, it would be better to move those in the second group into the first one, because at least then they would all be treated fairly. Given the failure to get the people affected by the first round of closures into work, surely the fairest thing to do now would be to stop, get it right and then move on. This is not about whether we should or should not try to get people into mainstream work; it is about whether we can get these people into work.

[Esther McVey]

Of course it is about getting these people into work. It has nothing to do with levelling down. We have taken the advice of the Sayce review and disability organisations, which have said that they want as many disabled people as possible in mainstream work. We are proceeding with that. I do not need to remind the Opposition that their failed modernisation plan, which started in 2008, was a disaster and we, as always, are picking up the pieces.

Work Capability Reassessments

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Esther McVey]

I will come to that point a little later.

The number of working-age people on ESA and incapacity benefits as of February 2012 was 2.56 million, which is the lowest level since the introduction of IB in 1995. Early estimates to September 2012 suggest that overall the numbers on these benefits are further decreasing and for the first time the data have gone below 2.5 million.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Is the Minister aware of the research that the DWP carried out for some of the early applicants for ESA, which showed that after a year of being found fit for work, 43% were neither on an out-of-work benefit nor in employment? This fall in the number of people on benefit may be the result of their simply getting nothing and disappearing out of the system. Is she concerned by that?

[Esther McVey]

Of course, that would concern me; it would be of concern to anyone. Everybody will be followed up and duly represented and given sufficient support. However, we would have to look into those numbers. Those who are on benefit get the support they need, in contrast to previous approaches through which they were abandoned to a lifetime on benefits. Those who have been found fit for work now claim JSA, an active benefit with a proven track record of getting people into work, as the falling unemployment figures have shown.

On the cases raised this evening, it is important to note that if someone appeals against a disallowance decision, the tribunal considers the evidence, the law and the claimant’s circumstances at the time of that decision. If the appeal is upheld and the claimants are awarded ESA, they are quite rightly required to attend a further work capability assessment in the same way as any other ESA claimant—the timing of the reassessment is the issue. It is not true that the time frame set for the work capability assessment remains fixed by the original decision maker when the fit-for-work decision was made. If an appeal has been upheld, the date for the next WCA is decided afresh by a decision maker; re-referral dates chosen can be three, six, 12, 18 or 24 months later, depending on when it is considered most appropriate for claimants to have their next contact with the Department.

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

As I said, all factors will be taken into account for the individual having an assessment. It is true that a small number of claimants are asked to attend a further work capability assessment as little as three months after a successful appeal, but only after careful consideration of all the available evidence by the decision maker. Our latest data show, however, that that only happens in around 5% of cases. As part of our ongoing commitment to continuous improvement, the process was reviewed, with revised guidance issued to decision makers in February 2011 to ensure that they were actively considering a suitable re-referral date, so that claimants are called back when most appropriate for them.

Following the recommendations from Professor Harrington’s year two review, a regular audit of decision-maker performance is now conducted via the quality assurance framework, whereby checks are made on a sample of ESA and IB reassessment decisions. We also conduct twice yearly calibration exercises at a national level to ensure consistent application of the quality assurance framework. More than 90% of decisions met the required standard each month between February and September 2012. Additionally, due to changes introduced in July 2012, we have improved the process for receiving feedback from the tribunals if the tribunal has overturned the original decision. Judges now have the discretion to include a recommendation of when the next WCA should take place on the tribunal’s decision notice. The decision maker will take account of that recommendation when setting the review date.

I recognise that the number of appeals that the Department receives, as well as the effect on the individuals concerned, is an emotive issue. I also acknowledge that the volume of appeals has increased significantly over recent years, but that, too, is being addressed. I want to ensure that the decision making is right first time around, which was a focus of Professor Harrington’s independent reviews of the WCA. He has made a number of recommendations to support such an approach to decision making. As a result, we have: changed how we communicate with claimants, to explain the process more clearly; put decision makers at the heart of the process; and introduced the quality assessment framework to improve the quality of decisions made. We have also introduced the personalised summary statement and regional mental function champions to improve the quality of face-to-face assessments.

If a claimant disputes a decision, however, we must be able to resolve the dispute within the DWP, whenever possible. If the dispute cannot be resolved within the DWP, we need to ensure that an effective and efficient dispute resolution procedure is in place. The DWP and Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service are working together to improve the quality of initial decision making to address the high levels of appeals while ensuring that fairness and efficiency are maintained.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Can the Minister address a specific issue? As recently as July, the former Minister appeared to accept that in spite of the changes mentioned he thought that people were being called back too quickly for reassessment. What has been done since July to deal with that?

[Esther McVey]

I thought I had dealt with that a little earlier when discussing the decision makers and how there is the right to look at when they feel it is appropriate to call someone back, whether three, six, 12, 18 or 24 months later. That obviously has to be right for all, whether the person assessed or the system as a whole. As the hon. Lady knows, we have reviewed the process not once, not twice, but three times under Professor Harrington. Each time recommendations have come back, and we have implemented them, so significant changes are under way.

As the hon. Lady mentioned at the start of the debate, we inherited the situation—the system was put in place before this Government—but we are trying to get it right, we have brought in changes and we will continue to do so until all parts of the House and, most importantly, those being assessed, feel we have got it right.

In conclusion, I echo Professor Harrington who has made it quite clear that the work capability assessment, designed as the “first positive step” towards work, is the “right concept” for assessing people who need our support. He also recognised, however, that there was a need to improve it, which is why we accepted and have largely implemented more than 40 recommendations made in his first two reviews.

Following our reforms, twice as many people go into the support group now as when ESA was introduced. The proportion of people with mental health conditions being awarded ESA has risen from 33% to 49%. I know the hon. Member for Edinburgh East asked specifically what was happening in that regard, and I hope that she can take some comfort from how clearly we are looking into the matter and at how the numbers have changed.

In response to the hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero), who mentioned one of her constituents and a physiotherapist, the assessment looks at the function and not the condition. Physios are experts in this area and have comprehensive training, especially on mental health. They are only approved and allowed to be assessors if they have the necessary skills.

As for the critics, Professor Harrington made it clear in his third review:

“All they call for is a scrapping of the WCA but with no suggestion of what might replace it”,

and

“to recognise that things are beginning to change positively in the best interests of the individual would be helpful.”

Debates such as this improve the situation.

Personal Independence Payments

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Tuesday 13th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Esther McVey]

If I had reached the end of my paragraph, I might have answered those questions.

Assessors will have broad knowledge and specialist knowledge, but the assessment will not be medical; the assessment focuses on outcomes and how the health condition affects the individual. We recognise, however, that assessors might need support on mental, intellectual and cognitive impairments when assessing individuals with, for example, mental health conditions, learning disabilities or autism. As such, we require providers to have mental and cognitive champions, as recommended by Professor Harrington.

[Sheila Gilmore]

There are more people to be assessed and reassessed for this new benefit than there were for the employment and support allowance, which I accept is very different. One problem that we have encountered is that there are only two mental health champions for the whole of Scotland. Can the Minister reassure us that that number will be increased, because we are dealing with larger numbers?

[Esther McVey]

Absolutely. The hon. Lady is right that the assessment is very different, but we have to take forward the knowledge that we have learned. I have had many meetings on the need for more champions to provide the knowledge, so that people can have confidence when they are being assessed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Monday 5th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

I can indeed. User-led groups will be a key element in everything that we do. It is essential for disabled people and their organisations to be at the heart of that. We have also created a £3 million fund, and I was delighted to be in Redbridge last week when we delivered £1 million of it.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

An important part of the disability strategy is to get people into work. Can the Minister tell us what proportion of the people in the work-related activity group who have been mandated to join the Work programme have actually found work?

[Esther McVey]

The figures have not been published yet, but as soon as they are published, I will give the hon. Lady the information.

Working-Age Disabled People

Debate between Esther McVey and Sheila Gilmore

Thursday 25th October 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I begin by congratulating and thanking the Liaison Committee for calling this debate. I thank the members of the Select Committee and other right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken today, some with very personal knowledge of this most important subject.

In summing up I hope to get through all the questions. As Members can see, I have papers on those questions across my desk, but should I not get to answer all of them, I am sure Members will catch my eye and pursue the matter that most concerns them.

I am pleased, Mr Sheridan, that you are chairing the debate today. Thank you.

I believe that the change will be of the same quality and standard as the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, which was introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague). I thank the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) for mentioning that Act, because I think all of us here are concerned about, committed to and believe in the rights of people with disabilities. We want the changes that we seek to be implemented as best they can be and brought about for the right purposes. The coalition Government are committed to enabling disabled people to fulfil their potential and to have opportunities to play a full role in society.

We have been clear about our welfare reform plans, which are designed to rebalance the benefits system so that it is fair to claimants and affordable for the taxpayer. Key to ensuring those objectives is replacing the disability living allowance with personal independence payments for people of working age.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I have only just begun, but the hon. Lady may intervene if she wishes.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I regret that the Minister has fallen into the trap of counterpoising claimants and taxpayers. Many claimants are indeed taxpayers. Many are income tax payers, but they all certainly pay VAT. The two groups are not distinct.

[Esther McVey]

I never sought to put them in two distinct groups. I said “affordable for the taxpayer”. I am afraid that it is the hon. Lady who distinguishes between the two. I certainly did not.

The Government currently spend almost £50 billion a year on disabled people, including more than £15 billion on adult social care, £1 billion on free transport for elderly and disabled people, £13 billion on disability living allowance, £15 billion on a range of other benefits and £320 million on disability employment programmes. We are also putting an extra £15 million into Access to Work. We should be proud that we are doing all of that. We spend a fifth more than the EU average, and we are acknowledged as world leaders, which is a very good point to start this debate.

Those services enable disabled people to make their own choices and live independently, and for the services to continue to be available they must be sustainable and keep pace with the needs of disabled people today, which is considered no longer to be the case with disability living allowance. As hon. Members may be aware, from May 2002 to February 2012 the number of people claiming DLA rose by almost 34%. DLA, therefore, is financially unsustainable. We, like many others, including the Select Committee, consider DLA to be outdated and in need of fundamental change.