Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Helen Whately]

I am just summing up, so I will not give way, if the hon. Lady will forgive me.

Coupled with that is the desire of Opposition Members to keep a welfare system that does not work and does not help enough people into work, when we now—with the economy growing, plenty of jobs and wages going up—have an opportunity to do something about it. We have a plan, and in the absence of a plan of their own, I encourage them to back ours.

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[Graham Evans]

Swansea is a fine city and the hon. Gentleman represents it very well. That may be the case in Swansea, but I can only speak about the Jobcentre Pluses that the Work and Pensions Committee investigated. We did not see any evidence of targets. In my constituency, I have two Jobcentre Pluses. They are outstanding and do a fantastic job. We have almost full employment in Weaver Vale and the surrounding area. The centres do a great job of trying to get the people who are unemployed into jobs. If hard-working taxpayers who pay for benefits and welfare did not turn up to work on time and do a good job, they would be sanctioned—they would be sacked. There has to be fairness. Finding a full-time job is a full-time job. There is the claimant commitment. All I am saying to the House is that in my experience I have not seen any target culture in the Jobcentre Pluses I have visited.

[Emily Thornberry]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Islington Law Centre in my constituency has a 100% success rate in overturning sanction decisions?

[Graham Evans]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention. She makes a powerful point. She represents north London and I represent a seat in the north-west. When the Committee investigated Jobcentre Plus, one of the things I used to argue for was best practice. There are some outstanding examples of Jobcentre Plus practice. Perhaps the north London jobcentres need to look at best practice elsewhere in the Department for Work and Pensions.

[Emily Thornberry]

The point is simply this: the hon. Gentleman may be right, so will he support our call for an independent review of sanctions across the country, so we can see where there is good practice and where there is bad practice?

[Graham Evans]

The hon. Lady raises a good point, which others have raised, too. I would encourage the Select Committee to do a further investigation into Jobcentre Plus. My personal experience is that it does an outstanding job. I carry out job fairs in my constituency and I am organising my fifth one since I became an MP, during which time I have seen unemployment halved in Weaver Vale. One thing I learned from working with the jobcentres in Runcorn and Northwich was the number of high-quality and well-paid jobs available.

Let me provide an example. Waitrose came to town—to Northwich. It is under no obligation to give interviews, but when it came to Northwich, it said it would interview 25% of local people on the books of the local jobcentre. In the end, it interviewed 70%, and I am pleased to say that more than 50% of those it took on for the new Waitrose in Northwich were local people. I spoke to many of the people employed there. There were lots of young ladies, and ladies not quite so young, who had been unemployed for many years. They now have themselves a fantastic career with a John Lewis partnership. I asked them why they were unemployed for so long, and they said that the training given by Jobcentre Plus and the local Cheshire West and Chester work zone was what made them job-ready, able to do well in interviews and capable of producing a good CV.

The last time I checked, Waitrose was delighted with the quality of the workforce—one that, as I say, had been unemployed for a very long time. Some of the jobs are part time, but some people want that, and they are good-quality jobs and very well paid. This is exactly the sort of Jobcentre Plus activity that I hope goes on in everyone’s constituency. I was going to say more about Jobcentre Plus, but I shall give that a miss as I have already made the points.

Everyone with the ability to work should be given the support and opportunity to work. The previous system wrote too many people off and left too many trapped in a cycle of welfare dependency. Over the last five years, the number of people in Weaver Vale claiming jobseeker’s allowance and universal credit while not in employment fell by more than 1,000—a 51% drop. I am not saying that my jobs fairs had anything to do with that, but they probably helped in some way.

This Government’s long-term economic plan is working for Weaver Vale, getting people off a life on benefits and back into work. I have not heard of an alternative to our long-term economic plan recently—or at all, in fact. Employment has been this Government’s real success, with 2 million more jobs—and 1,000 created each and every day during the last Parliament.

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[Amanda Milling]

I am going to make some progress.

It is morally right that people who can work are better off in work; why should someone who is able to go to work get more money on benefits than in work? There has been strong support for that argument, both nationally and in my constituency. As I have mentioned in this Chamber before, Cannock Chase is a former mining area, where there is an incredibly strong work ethic. That might go some way to explaining why people would spontaneously say to me on the doorstep that they really supported the cap. That is notwithstanding the general public’s support. A YouGov survey conducted in the previous Parliament demonstrated the strength of public feeling, with around three quarters of respondents supporting the cap.

[Emily Thornberry]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Amanda Milling]

If the hon. Lady does not mind, I am going to make progress.

Not only do people support the cap, but there is evidence that it is working. It is reforms such as these that have helped encourage people back into work. In my constituency of Cannock Chase, unemployment has fallen dramatically. Since May 2010, the number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance has fallen by a staggering 70%. It is measures such as the benefits cap that have contributed to that fall. That is also evidenced by the figures mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately). Since the cap was introduced, 16,000 capped households have moved into work. Further analysis shows that households subject to the cap are 41% more likely to go into work, compared with similar uncapped households. There is also evidence to show that those who are subject to the cap are doing more to find work, whether by submitting more applications or attending more interviews.

However, one of my key concerns—this can be seen nationally and in my constituency—is whether the benefits cap goes far enough. Having talked with members of the public, I had a strong sense that the cap was set too high. After all, a family going out to work would have to earn £35,000 in order to net the equivalent £26,000, as my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) mentioned.

[Emily Thornberry]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Amanda Milling]

I am going to make progress, because I am conscious of time and the number of Members who wish to speak.

I therefore welcome the proposed reduction in the cap to £20,000 outside London and £23,000 in London, as set out in our manifesto and as included in the Bill. That is something the public support, as the general election result demonstrated. The Government received a clear mandate from the public on 7 May to introduce the benefits cap and the proposed reductions.

In my view, the benefits cap is a key measure at three levels. First, it ensures that our welfare system is fair, by making work pay and ensuring that those who can work are always better off in work than on benefits. Secondly, it ensures that our welfare system is targeted, by making sure that there is safety net for those people who most need support—the most vulnerable. Thirdly, it creates a welfare system that is sustainable, helping to get our economy and public finances on to a firmer footing and helping to reduce the deficit.

To date, the benefits cap has worked to meet those three objectives, helping to create a fair, targeted and sustainable welfare system. I believe that the measures set out in the Bill will help to deliver those further. The amendments that have been tabled would undermine that progress, so I will not be supporting them this evening.

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[Helen Goodman]

I was not aware of that fact, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing it out.

On the employment numbers, I also want to point out that there are a lot of people on short-hours contracts. I am not talking about zero-hours contracts, which have now reached 750,000, as Conservative Members must know; I am talking about eight-hour and 12-hour contracts. They provide insecure employment and insufficient money for people to live on, and they make it very difficult to get other jobs. They are, however, recorded as employment. There is all the difference in the world between working 35 hours a week and working eight hours a week, and Conservative Members need to think about that before they start talking about miraculous employment figures.

[Emily Thornberry]

A snapshot of today’s jobs market would also reveal that 3 million people in this country identify as being underemployed. They are not working enough hours to be able to support their family.

[Helen Goodman]

My hon. Friend has expressed that beautifully.

I shall move on to the question of employment and support allowance. Again, hon. Members need to think about the overhang from the heavy industries and the impact that reductions in people’s income has on those individuals and on whole communities. I suppose this seems quite unusual to those representing a constituency whose casework consists of a lot of neighbour disputes and planning issues, and where only one person a week turns up with a benefits problem, but in a constituency like mine—a former mining constituency in an industrial area—the bulk of the casework is this sort of thing. The cuts Conservative Members are proposing to vote for tonight will have a devastating impact on the amount of money in the local economy, as well as being very unfair to people who are not going to be able to go back to work.

Finally, I want to make one observation on universal credit and lone parents. It is not reasonable to have the same conditionality for a lone parent with children under school age as for people in couples. The practicalities of looking after children are different for lone parents and for married couples. Ministers in the Parliament before last changed the rules so that the conditionality for lone parents was aligned to the tax credit system, and the period was 16 hours instead of 30 hours for people in couples. Ministers must help people balance their parenting responsibilities and their working responsibilities better.

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[Victoria Atkins (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)]

I wish to speak to new clause 7, amendments 35 to 48 and new clause 6.

I had the very great privilege of sitting on the Committee for this Bill and I have heard arguments from all parts of the House. There is one point in relation to new clause 7 that we looked at in Committee and that I wish to develop further today, and that is the principle of making work pay. The benefit cap has been criticised by some Opposition Members, but the reality is that, in my constituency, it is a very popular policy. The median salary in my constituency is £480 per week, which is less than the cap currently in place for benefits of £26,000. The point has already been made, and indeed we looked at it in the Bill Committee, that that £26,000 figure is equivalent to a gross figure of £35,000.

[Emily Thornberry]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Victoria Atkins]

In a moment if I may. Let me just finish this point. This effort to make work pay is to be welcomed and not criticised.

[Emily Thornberry]

I pointed this out to the hon. Lady in Committee, but I am grateful to have the opportunity to point it out to her again. If someone had a median income in central London, they would be on benefits, because it is accepted that people cannot live on £26,000 in central London and pay their rent.

[Victoria Atkins]

As I responded in Committee, I understand that the hon. Lady represents a London constituency, but I do not. I can only speak for what I think is right for my constituency and the area outside London.

We are talking here about a package of measures. I know that Opposition Members do not like to draw together all of its different threads, but this is a package. The ripple effect of the national living wage includes commitments—