Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I understand that references have been made during the course of today’s proceedings to the atrocities that have occurred in Pakistan. The latest information is that 141 have been murdered in Pakistan, of whom 132 were children aged between five and 14. As we would all agree, this has undoubtedly been an act of murderous inhumanity.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I raise this point of order not just to give the latest information, but to ask you whether there is any way in which the House can express its horror at and condemnation of what has occurred in Pakistan. It is an act of terror carried out —and recognised and admitted as such—by the Taliban. I hope that it will be possible for such condemnation to be expressed by the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I am sure that he is aware that I am not strictly in a position to say precisely when or by what means the House will be given the opportunity to express, on behalf of the people of this country, its feelings about what has happened in Pakistan. However, I am quite certain that those on the Treasury Bench have listened to what he said. Indeed, Members referred to this matter during the debates on terrorism this afternoon.

May I on behalf of the House say that I am sure that every Member of the House, on behalf of the people whom we represent, would wish to express our absolute horror and enormous sadness at this terrible atrocity? We are used to seeing dreadful acts of terrorism, but rarely have we seen such an awful act of terrorism against children. I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing the matter to the attention of the House. I am quite sure that the House will, at some point in the very near future, have the opportunity to address this matter.

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

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Wednesday 26th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Diana Johnson]

I am grateful to the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, and he is right that I am—like him—a serial attender of these debates. The issue of Hizb ut-Tahrir has been raised at every proscription order debate in which I have been involved and we have asked the Minister what progress has been made on the promise by the then Leader of the Opposition that he would ban it when he became Prime Minister. It is now several years since the Prime Minister made that promise. It would be interesting to hear from the Minister if any progress has been made on that point.

May I take this opportunity to wish the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee a happy birthday? I understand that it is my right hon. Friend’s birthday today. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]

Finally, I would like to turn to the issue of prosecutions of members, supporters and facilitators of proscribed organisations. The Intelligence and Security Committee report published yesterday highlighted the low number of prosecutions and the difficulties the police face in obtaining prosecutions in this area. What do the Government intend to do to address this problem? In particular, does the Minister think that the way of defining terror for the purpose of proscription is sufficient to allow a terror group to be clearly identified? All three of the groups we have discussed today have had a series of associate groups; in most cases, groups that have been proscribed this year or in previous years. Those groups are often difficult to separate out. Will the Minister comment on the degree to which the way in which we define groups gives sufficient clarity to enable us to link an individual with a specific proscribed group? What more does he think we can do to ensure more prosecutions, where appropriate, in these types of cases where organisations have been proscribed?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

With the good wishes of the House for a very happy birthday, I call Mr Keith Vaz.

EU Justice and Home Affairs Measures

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Wednesday 19th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Yvette Cooper]

I am sure that Conservative Members are all deeply grateful to us, which is why they have come to the Chamber to join the debate today.

We still do not know whether it was the Chief Whip or the Home Secretary who made so much of a mess of last week. In June, the Chief Whip said of the Home Secretary that she

“lacked intellectual firepower and quick wit”.

He said that “she has no friends”, and with amazing prescience, he said that

“she can’t even gain the support of her colleagues”.

That makes two of them, because the Chief Whip is on a roll. He nearly lost a vote—he came within 10 votes of doing so—last week. The man who is supposed to be working the bars of Westminster lost a vote on pubs this week. The man who is supposed to be holding the parliamentary Conservative party together has managed to mislay two MPs. When he was appointed, he said that his new job was

“to ensure the right people are in the right place”.

It is just a shame that they were in the wrong Lobby.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I appreciate that the right hon. Lady is making some very important and interesting points, but I should remind her, lest she stray too far, that the motion is about the Government’s formal application to rejoin 35 European justice and home affairs measures. I am sure that she will address her remarks to the motion.

[Yvette Cooper]

You are exactly right, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is in fact the debate that we should have had last week. It is a debate about 35 different measures, including the European arrest warrant. It covers the 11 measures that we voted for last time, but also the 24 measures on which we did not have the chance to vote last time.

Those measures include a series of different things. We need the supervision order, under which a UK national could spend time in the UK pending trial, rather than in a foreign jail, to rectify the rare cases in which that happens. Joint investigation teams are needed to tackle cross-border crime, as was shown by Operation Golf, in which co-operation between the Met and Europol and data sharing stopped child-trafficking rings that were bringing teenagers to London to be raped and forced into prostitution. We need co-ordination on the freezing and seizing of the assets of organised criminals and terrorists. We support continued co-operation on confiscation orders and freezing orders. We need to exchange criminal records. Pilots in London have shown that a significant proportion of foreign nationals arrested already have convictions abroad.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The House will be aware that a great many Members are seeking to catch my eye and that very little time is available. I must therefore reduce the time limit for Back-Bench speeches to six minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

I am not going to give way to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I do not know how I can, as I have no more time—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is not going to give way.

[Pete Wishart]

I cannot give way as I have no more time.

I want to address a point about one important case in Scotland. A Polish national, Grzegorz Gamla, was convicted last December of the murder of Maciej Ciania in Leith. He was arrested by the Polish authorities within five hours of a European arrest warrant being issued. We do not have any of the silly, insignificant and unsubstantial cases that others have cited, and I think that is because we have our own jurisdiction in Scotland and because of how we look at these matters. This is not the European arrest warrant’s fault, but it might be the fault of how the Ministry of Justice looks at such matters. Perhaps it should be looking at its own procedures to see whether they can be addressed properly.

In Scotland, we do not share the Euro-hostility that seems to pervade this House and the UKIPification of the UK in which Master Farage pulls all the strings and those on the Tory Front Bench dance along. The UKIPification of the UK is almost complete. The hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) is in his place. He will be joined by his friend on Thursday. I do not know how many other Conservative Members will resign, but I suspect it will be quite a few.

My country is going to be dragged out of the European Union against its will because of the Euro-hostility in this place. We observe these things, but we want no part in them. We are being dragged out against our will. I just wish that the Conservatives would take on UKIP, stop pandering to it and stand up for their own values, rather than for the values of the hon. Member for Clacton and his party.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Such is the heat of the debate and the number and length of interventions, which have caused speeches to be much longer—in order, but much longer—than the limit I set, that I am afraid I now must reduce the time limit to four minutes.

Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Bill

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Tuesday 15th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). He is a valued member of my Joint Committee on Human Rights, as was the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab). I was delighted to hear him quoting the banner of the Tower lodge miners, a great bastion of trade union freedom. The quote has been attributed to Franklin—it may well be—and to the Lord Mayor of Dublin, but today it has been made famous by the Tower miners. The opening statement by the shadow Home Secretary, who is not in her place, really did sum up that sense of the need to protect our liberties and the security of all our citizens. That is very much in the spirit of “eternal vigilance is the price of freedom”.

I am conscious that we have very little time, so I would like pose three questions to the Minister and then make reference to public confidence in Parliament. First, why was draft legislation not prepared during the two-year period in which the Government knew of the risk of the directive being ruled invalid, and why was Parliament not given a proper opportunity to scrutinise and debate the detail? Secondly, what exactly is the urgency that requires the complex issue of extraterritoriality to be dealt with by emergency rather than ordinary legislation? Thirdly, I will be writing to the Government, on behalf of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, to ask for a more detailed explanation of how our law meets each of the criticisms of the European Court, but there is one central question I would like the Minister to answer today. Why, in the light of the case law, do the Government consider that it is compatible with the right to respect for private life to continue to authorise blanket retention of communications data?

Let me turn to the vexed question of public confidence in Parliament. Emergency legislation such as this has the potential to undermine the public’s confidence in Parliament’s capacity to do its job of holding the Government to account. In the wake of the Snowden disclosures, there is widespread mistrust of the Government and the intelligence agencies when it comes to surveillance. Detailed scrutiny of the Government’s justifications for interfering with people’s privacy must involve civil society. To be democratically legitimate, that scrutiny must take place here in Parliament. The Government need to recognise that they do not have a monopoly on wisdom or expertise in these matters. They need to heed the views of parliamentarians and specialist parliamentary Committees, and the views of wider civil society.

Courts are also more likely to uphold laws that have been properly scrutinised by Parliament. Lack of effective parliamentary scrutiny makes it more likely that courts will find laws to be in breach of fundamental rights. This only feeds the public perception that Parliament is disempowered in relation not only to the Government, but to the courts.

Let me give a good example of that. Last year the Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Act was passed as emergency legislation only days after it was introduced. My Committee was unable to report before the Bill received its Royal Assent but we expressed grave reservations about the Bill’s compatibility with two particular human rights: the rights of access to court and to peaceful enjoyment of possessions. For that reason, we would have liked to scrutinise it in more detail. Last week, the legislation was declared incompatible by the High Court on the very grounds identified by my Committee. While, no doubt, the Government will be appealing against the judgment, it illustrates well the vulnerability of emergency legislation to successful legal challenge on human rights grounds.

The Government are now taking the same risk with this Bill. From my perspective as the Chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, I can see a clear pattern emerging: very widely drafted powers to counter terrorism and serious crime, with too few safeguards to guarantee that they are only used when necessary and proportionate, give rise to concerns about their indiscriminate overuse. We have seen it with powers to take and retain, for example, DNA—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order.

Communications Data and Interception

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Thursday 10th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need to be able to respond to that challenge if we are to continue to fulfil one of the absolutely fundamental roles of Government, which is keeping the public safe and secure. Sometimes people describe the debate between liberty and security as a sort of binary process; we can have only one or the other. I do not see it as that. We can only enjoy our liberty if we have our security.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Although I appreciate that this is a very difficult subject, I remind the House that short questions and answers will mean that everyone has a chance to contribute to this statement.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I sympathise with the Home Secretary’s quandary, but I rather sympathise, too, with the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), because the only reason that this is an emergency that has to be dealt with in a single day in the House of Commons is that the Government have spent three months making up their mind, and they have decided that we are going on holiday in 10 days’ time. Does it not make far more sense to enable proper consideration so that we do not have unintended consequences from this legislation? If the legislation was considered in this House on two separate days, we could table amendments after Second Reading.

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

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Thursday 19th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

I hope my hon. Friend will understand that it would not be appropriate for me to go into detailed operational discussions or intelligence issues. I can assure him, however, that we are in ongoing discussions with Turkey and other Governments, including at the European level. A number of EU countries have similarly seen their citizens travel to Syria, so there is some good co-ordination of activities, although there is still more work to be done.

On the issue of people returning, it is important to underline the arrests and prosecutions that have taken place. In the last 18 months, about 65 have been arrested. To put that in greater context, since 1 January this year, we have been notified of 50 Syria-related arrests, and 21 people suspected of being involved in travelling to or from Syria. Nine charges have been brought thus far. That shows that continuing operational activity, including broader disruptive and preventive activity, is taking place.

It is also important to underline the need for vigilance, which was highlighted by the Chair of the Select Committee in his comments about Yemen. There is an enduring threat from al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, which operates within Yemen. Al-Shabaab has come to the fore for some appalling atrocities that it has committed, and I could mention various other groups linked to al-Qaeda. The vigilance of our security services, police and Government is crucial. Terrorist risks are linked to the ongoing Syrian conflict, and I have spoken on a number of occasions about the enduring risk as a consequence. We need to remain vigilant against threats from wherever else they come. In that context, the hon. Member for Ilford South rightly highlighted the global connections of terrorism.

The hon. Gentleman also rightly mentioned the need for us to underline the contribution that British Muslims make to our country. I endorse that very clear message. Last summer, we saw some attacks on mosques and the appalling murder of Mohammed Saleem in the west midlands. During my visits then and since, I have been struck by the strength of communities across our country in coming together to stand against and oppose violence or threats to any part of our wider community.

My hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) highlighted the need to keep matters under review and to be vigilant. I wholly endorse that. We monitor these issues closely, and where new names need to be used, aliases may be added to the proscription list. If something looks like a front for an existing proscribed organisation, prosecutions and other activities will not be prevented from happening.

Finally, the Chair of the Select Committee made a point about my responsibilities. If I recall correctly, Tony McNulty and other previous security Ministers have had other responsibilities as well—for policing, for example—so it is not a simple role that can be taken in isolation. I noted the right hon. Gentleman’s comments, but some uses of immigration powers have helped to underline the connections between the different strands—how we use our Border Force and the warnings index, for example. Use of advanced passenger information is important, too, to prevent those suspected of terrorism from getting on to flights in the first place.

I welcome the support for the order today. I think it will send out a very strong message and underline the Government’s commitment to dealing with terrorism and the serious issues we face in respect of Syria, Iraq and elsewhere.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 16 June, be approved.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I inform Members that I intend to allow approximately equal time to each of the two debates proposed by the Backbench Business Committee. If all Back Benchers who have indicated that they wish to speak are to be given the opportunity to do so, it would be helpful if Back-Bench Members took approximately 10 minutes—and no more. I shall not impose a time-limit now, trusting to Members’ decency in considering others as well as themselves. We will see how that works.

Passport Applications

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Wednesday 18th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

We have had sustained demand and the demand has come earlier in the year than would normally be the case. Therefore, that increase and the period in which demand was sustained is an important factor. That is why HMPO has been operating seven days a week since March and why passports are delivered within 24 hours by couriers.

Some 250 staff were moved from back-office roles to the front line, and an additional 200 people will soon be supporting front-line operation. The focus has been given to getting passport applications turned round. I also stress that 650 extra staff are working on the customer helpline—an increase to 1,000. We understand people’s anxieties and action has been taken.

As the Home Secretary has said, we are ensuring that those who need to travel in the next seven days whose applications have been outstanding for more than three weeks through no—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I hesitate to interrupt the Minister, but Members who have come into the Chamber who have not been here for the debate should not be talking through his speech.

[James Brokenshire]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

To confirm, we have taken action on those needing to travel within the next seven days whose applications have been outstanding for more than three weeks through no fault of their own. They will have their applications fast-tracked without charge.

We have introduced processes overseas for those wishing to renew their passports to travel to the UK. Customers can apply for an extension to their existing passports at consular offices overseas. Overseas posts have been provided with stamps and customers are booking appointments for this service. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is now issuing emergency travel documents for children who need to travel to the UK.

Staff at HMPO are working hard to process passport applications. Again, I underline the Home Secretary’s thanks to them for their dedication at this time. To give a sense of the scale and nature of the work being undertaken, let me give some numbers to put the issue into context. Almost 160,000 passports were issued in the past week

Home Affairs

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Tuesday 10th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Evans]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There have been many severe cases in which the probation service has been stretched to the maximum. I am thinking of one in particular, in which an extremely violent crime had been committed. I do not want to mention it, but it was reported in the national press. That violent individual was released, and the probation officer never reached him because of the extent of the work load.

Is it any wonder that people who leave prison only to be faced with the unemployment that they experienced before should return to the way of life that sent them to prison in the first place? I think that that problem is more acute in the case of short sentences, which many of the 600-odd new offences will attract. At present, 60% of prisoners serving sentences of less than 12 months are reconvicted within a year, which is a sad reflection on society. Those who are in prison for less than a year have no access to offender management programmes, and are not subject to supervision by the probation service following their release. The Offender Rehabilitation Act 2014 seeks to address that by ensuring that all offenders are supervised in the community for 12 months after their release. Given that the probation service is already strained, we must await the outcome of the Act, but in the light of my experience of membership of the Justice Committee, I do not hold out much hope. [Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but it would be unfair to allow him to continue when there is a noise going on. There is something wrong with the speakers. I have asked for it to be fixed, and I hope that neither the hon. Gentleman nor those who are listening to him will be too distracted.

Passport Office (Delays)

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Tuesday 10th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Robinson]

Indeed I have. I am grateful for that intervention. Seldom have I known a problem that is so multifaceted. There is a problem with expats. I have a slightly different case that involves a gentleman who is a naturalised British subject, but who has not had occasion to travel abroad before. He is a professor at a prestigious local university who wants to travel abroad. He is going to get married in Berlin and has an important lecture to give in Japan. He has been waiting for two months for a British passport and now thinks that he will have to get—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I trust that the hon. Gentleman will turn around and address the House.

[Mr Robinson]

I will—I meant no disrespect, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am trying to get round the number of interested Back Benchers who have key constituent complaints to register. The Minister might not have time to reply to them all, but at least he can take on the extent and depth of the problems he is dealing with, about which I think he is in some state of denial.

Deregulation Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Wednesday 14th May 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor-General]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 72, page 1, line 1, leave out clause 1.

[The Solicitor-General]

New clause 2 deals with the wearing of safety helmets by the Sikh community in Northern Ireland. Its purpose is to extend the provision in the Bill to Sikhs in Northern Ireland. We discussed the issue in Committee and it was hoped that it would be possible to introduce such a measure. Article 13 of the Employment (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1990 exempts turban-wearing Sikhs from legal requirements to wear a safety helmet while on a construction site. It also protects employers from liability should a Sikh suffer injuries as a consequence of choosing not to wear a helmet. The new clause extends the scope of the exemption to all workplaces, subject to certain very narrow exclusions, and extends the limited liability provisions associated with the exemption for other persons, such as employers.

The exemption in the 1990 order was limited to construction sites because, at the time, only workers in the construction industry were mandated to wear safety helmets. Legislative requirements regarding the wearing of safety helmets have since developed and now extend to a number of other industries in which a risk assessment identifies the need for specialist head protection.

There are certain jobs and industries in which the wearing of a turban may come into conflict with legislative requirements regarding the wearing of safety helmets or other coverings. Employers in non-construction sectors must therefore balance their obligation to protect the health and safety of their employees against their duty not to discriminate against a turban-wearing Sikh employee on the grounds of religion or race.