Africa and the Middle East

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Monday 4th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

A great many diplomatic efforts have been made. The right hon. Gentleman mentions my own efforts. I met the President and the opposition parties two months ago to encourage them in the right direction—evidently without success in this case—and other Foreign Ministers from around the world have tried to do the same. In recent days, the Gulf Co-operation Council countries, in particular, have been involved in trying to mediate over Yemen, and Saudi Arabia has often tried to do so. Many efforts have been made. The list of envoys who have tried to assist in bringing people together in Yemen is growing quite long. That in no way excludes further efforts, so of course we will continue to do everything we can to try to ensure that reason prevails and that the way to an orderly transition is found in Yemen that does not involve an even greater scale of injury and loss of life, to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. We will continue these efforts and in no way dismiss the idea of a further international envoy.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

When Musa Kusa was ambassador here, we had to expel him for openly calling for the murder of dissidents. We are now supping, if not with the devil, with a pretty good substitute. Is not our enthusiasm for regime change sucking us away from the high moral ground of humanitarian gestures and into the ever more murky world of Libyan politics?

[Mr Hague]

No, I think that the high moral ground is retained by basing all our actions on what is legally correct, as we have done in our handling of the whole Libya crisis from the United Nations resolution downwards, and in the handling of these individual cases. When somebody with such a long association with the regime wants to leave it, and by doing so damage the regime, I think that it is right to assist them in doing so. Additionally, it can only be a good thing to discuss with such a man the situation in Libya and the middle east, and gain his insight into it. It can also only be a good thing that any prosecuting authorities that wish to speak to him and get more information from him can do so. I see no downside in doing what we have done with him over the past few days.

Libya (London Conference)

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

It is very important that not only in Libya, but in north Africa as a whole, the UK and the European Union take the bold and ambitious approach that I described earlier, in order to act as a magnet for positive change—for civil society, open political systems, the building up of small and medium-sized enterprises, and all the other building blocks of democracy—but we cannot guarantee the outcome, of course. That is why we must make sure Europe provides a very big and effective magnet for those changes. If we fail to do that, not just Libya but any of the other countries in the region could become breeding grounds for terrorism and extremism. I think we should be on the optimistic side of this situation in which millions of people are seeking greater freedom, openness and democracy, but we should also be alert to the dangers if they do not succeed in getting those things.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

I strongly agree with the shadow Foreign Secretary and his measured words, and urge extreme caution on my right hon. Friend. Would it not be a double win for al-Qaeda, and would we not start losing support in the Arab world, if we were seen to impose a solution on Libya and at the same time give arms to people who could prove to be Islamist insurgents in the future?

[Mr Hague]

I can assure my hon. Friend that we will not be engaged in imposing any solution on Libya. We will carry out necessary operations to implement the UN Security Council resolutions, but we are not in the business of imposing a solution, or a Government, on Libya. Indeed, if we were, we would lose that wider Arab and regional support, of whose importance he rightly reminds us.

North Africa and the Middle East

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Thursday 24th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I think that the whole world is pretty much united on urging Gaddafi not only to stop the fighting, but to leave the scene. That is the view even of countries that did not support the UN Security Council resolution. This is a worldwide view. However, Colonel Gaddafi is clearly not easily persuaded to engage in a dialogue to reach out to the opposition. We hope he will see that the situation is such that it is necessary for him to go, and that is the only way forward for the Libyan people. The countries to which the hon. Gentleman refers are certainly of that opinion as well and certainly do not want the Gaddafi regime to continue.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

On that very point about the Gaddafi regime continuing, some of us were briefed this week by the BBC journalist who had been detained in horrendous circumstances in Tripoli. He is clearly no apologist for the regime, but he said that it was remarkable how quiet Tripoli was, with demonstrations confined to one suburb and engaging only 200 or 300 people. Clearly the people there are cowed and massive subsidies are being poured at them. As some of us have asked constantly, what will happen if Gaddafi simply beds down in Tripoli? What is the game plan? What are we trying to achieve? Will the Foreign Secretary confirm that we are only on a humanitarian operation to protect the people of Benghazi and no more?

[Mr Hague]

Almost, as it is not just the people of Benghazi we need to protect. Although UN resolution 1973 specifically mentions Benghazi, it also calls for the taking of all necessary measures to protect the civilian population and populated areas in other parts of Libya. That is our mission. Our military mission is defined as clearly as any military mission has ever been by a UN resolution, and we will stick to that resolution. Clearly it is highly desirable for Gaddafi to go, as we have said for many weeks, but in military terms what we have set out to do is enforce the resolution. That means protecting Libya’s civilian population, attempting to bring about a ceasefire and not putting any occupation force on to any part of Libyan soil. We will stick strictly to the resolution.

Pakistan

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing this important debate and I have some brief comments. I accompanied him to Pakistan some weeks ago, and had the pleasure of meeting Shahbaz Bhatti. From that visit, we learned that the country is more progressive than one might have initially anticipated. Some laws are very progressive, such as the 18th amendment that concerns devolving power and money to provinces and regions. This Government, and the previous Government, could learn from that.

It is not for us to tell other countries what laws to have, but the issue with the blasphemy law is not so much the law itself but rather the interpretation of that law, both formally and informally. Formally, the penalties linked to the law are far too severe, and informally—this is the problem—

[Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair)]

Order. This is an intervention. Please bring it to a close.

[Simon Danczuk]

The interpretation of the blasphemy law is the problem.

European Union (Amendment) Act 2008

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

The Prime Minister made it clear in answer to questions last week that he believes it is in the United Kingdom’s interest to remain part of Europe. One of the things that my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) needs to say, in the hypothetical choice she advocates, is what the United Kingdom should leave the European Union in order to join. I will not stray beyond the confines of the motion this evening; I merely pose that question to my hon. Friend.

I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh); then I will make progress and not give way for a while.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

The Minister argues that we should be part of the process, but is there not a logical absurdity in what he is saying? When the real decisions were taken, our Prime Minister was kicked out. We are like a cork bobbing in their wake. We have no real power over the eurozone. That is why many people now think the time has come for a referendum on whether to stay in or get out.

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend, uncharacteristically, underestimates the influence of our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. When we look at how he has managed to assemble and lead a coalition of countries committed to greater budgetary discipline—something that would not have happened without his initiative—and when we look at the work that he is leading at a European level on the need for growth, competitiveness and deregulation, we can see that the influence of the Prime Minister and of the United Kingdom is being felt. I would encourage—

Hindi Radio Service (BBC)

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

This is an important Adjournment debate about the future of the BBC’s Hindi radio service. At the moment, it is broadcast for three hours a day, divided between the morning and the evening, and reaches no fewer than 10 million listeners, mostly in the northern Hindi-speaking regions of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and Jharkhand. Hindi is the second largest language audience of the BBC World Service worldwide—of course, English is the first—and it is precisely these three poorer states in India that the Department for International Development has committed to support until 2015 to the tune of £280 million.

The BBC is cutting its shortwave Hindi service, which costs £1 million a year, but once cut, it will save just 2.5p per listener. This, I contend, is the wrong saving to make, and I very much hope that the BBC will think again. The BBC Hindi service began in May 1940, on the very same day that Churchill became Prime Minister, and it employed I. K. Gujral, who later became the 13th Prime Minister of India. The Hindi service was also the first news outlet to break the news of Indira Gandhi’s assassination.

There has been a so-called partial reprieve—I would call it a climbdown—after the massive outcry over the total abolition of a radio service that serves 10 million people, and which most radio stations in the world would give their eye tooth to have. However, all that will do is save one hour of Hindi broadcasting for just one year, and that is not enough. The work schedules of the poorest Indians mean that they can often hear only one broadcast or the other. Many listeners want their radio news in the morning. This decision will wipe out a large proportion of the audience overnight.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is widespread concern across the UK about the decision that the BBC appears to be making? Many of my constituents share his concerns about the future direction of the BBC on this service.

[Mr Leigh]

I am grateful for that intervention, which shows the wide cross-party support on this issue, in a well-attended debate, and a lot of determination, in all parts of the House, to resist the BBC’s short-sighted decision.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate on what is a ridiculous decision by the BBC. Running the service costs very little compared with the audience that it gets. This decision has been made by people who do not understand that millions around the world rely on ordinary, old-fashioned, shortwave broadcasting. They are not part of the digital revolution, and if this kind of cut goes through, they will not even be informed about the digital revolution.

[Mr Leigh]

That is precisely the point. The false argument that the BBC makes is that there is a revolution in India and elsewhere—as indeed there is—and that more and more people have television, but the poorest of the poor in those states depend on shortwave radio. We provide a relatively cheap and effective service, and we should maintain it.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

As a former director of Diabetes UK who was involved in setting up health care programmes in India, I would echo that point. Quite often the service is the only way that messages about health care or things that are happening in a particular province can reach people.

[Mr Leigh]

That is absolutely right.

Let me read out a couple of quotations by ordinary people from an article in The Times:

“Vijay Kumar Pandey…every day at 6 am, takes his battered transistor radio and places it on a small table outside his house. Through the shortwave crackle a burst of familiar Indian classical music announces the beginning of a half-hour news bulletin.

Other villagers arrive to listen to the world’s most important events. They have been doing this since 1940, gathering at dawn and dusk to hear BBC Hindi’s twice-daily news programmes.

‘I am in shock,’ said Mr Pandey, a farmer in…Uttar Pradesh. ‘It’s like a family member departing from me.’”

The article continued:

“My life would lose its meaning if BBC Hindi stops its service,”

said Tarachand Khatri from Rajasthan.

“Can you imagine living with somebody throughout your life and, suddenly, that person is gone? BBC Hindi was a person; we used to interact with it through its programmes; we used to share our happiness, feelings, thoughts and concerns.”

The respected Indian news weekly Outlook reports that some villagers have threatened to burn David Cameron in effigy—something that we would all deprecate. Mohammed Hasnain Khan, a schoolteacher from Ghazipur, has threatened to immolate himself if BBC Hindi is shut. Ravindra Chauhan of Assam says that hearing that BBC Hindi will close was as if

“someone tells you that your parents will die in March.”

And so the arguments go on. This decision is an attack on people who have no way of hitting back, and I think that we should protect them, especially as the Department for International Development is set to continue funding the poorest states in India to the tune of £250 million.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Given the BBC’s enormous revenue, which is something like £4 billion a year, and how many correspondents it sends across the world in batches, does my hon. Friend agree that this incredible waste—in respect of which he and I fought to bring the BBC’s accounts within the purview of the National Audit Office—is completely disproportionate to the value that is attached to this service? Lastly, he might be fascinated to learn that 10 May 1940—the day on which the service began—happens to be the day I was born.

[Mr Leigh]

It is a very notable anniversary.

At this precise moment the BBC is wasting hundreds of thousands of pounds on a regionalisation programme—a programme that involves moving the headquarters of “Question Time” to Glasgow, for instance, even though it will continue to move around the country—while it is cutting a valued service in India.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate and on getting the climbdown from the BBC, but does he agree that this reprieve is not enough? We need to settle this matter once and for all and acknowledge the important contribution that the Hindi service makes. We need not just a temporary reprieve but a permanent one.

[Mr Leigh]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The purpose of this debate is to illustrate that we are saying, loud and clear, from all sides of the Chamber in the House of Commons, that this is only a partial climbdown. The BBC did not realise the extent of the outcry that would be caused by its decision. Some of the service’s best staff will go, and people will stop listening to it. They will no longer be able to listen in the morning; the service will be available only for one hour in the evening. That is not good enough, and we must fight the decision.

We often talk about soft power, and about proclaiming our values. Service such as these represent soft power. They are increasingly recognised as a hugely effective means of delivering diplomacy and our values, with few of the risks associated with more heavy-handed foreign policy interventions. Unlike other countries, Great Britain has a medium through which it can engage with a wide range of Indians, and not simply with the urban elite. That is the point that the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) made. We are not simply engaging with the urban elite online; we are engaging with the rural poor.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

The service is empowering people in some of the most rural parts of India who might not otherwise get the information that it provides. Providing that information empowers them to become masters of their own destiny and to know what is going on around them, which they might otherwise not do.

[Mr Leigh]

Absolutely. One of the values of the service is that it is a news service. Of course the BBC can go on broadcasting on FM radio, but hon. Members might not know that it is not allowed to put news on FM. It can broadcast news only on shortwave radio. One person has written to ask me what the point is of the BBC just beaming out Bollywood-type programmes on FM when it can beam out real independent news on shortwave radio.

[Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)]

I agree with much of what my hon. Friend says about soft power, and about this decision perhaps not having been taken on the basis of a solid cost-benefit analysis, but why, if he believes in markets, does he believe that only the BBC can provide independent, impartial news in India, which has a very vibrant media sector?

[Mr Leigh]

Of course India has a vibrant economy and many other news outlets will come into the picture, but the fact remains that many radio programmes in India do not have the tradition of real independence and unbiased reportage that the BBC Hindi programme has.

The service also reaches large numbers of listeners in areas affected by Maoist-inspired violence in central India, which Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has described as the most serious threat facing the country. Many BBC Hindi service listeners might be forced to switch to China Radio International or, for Muslim listeners, Radio Voice of Iran, if the service is shut. I would point out to my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Joseph Johnson) that the only domestic competition that the BBC Hindi service faces is All India Radio, which has a poor reputation for news and current affairs programmes and is often seen as a Government mouthpiece. In contrast, the BBC Hindi service has built up a strong reputation based on its unbiased coverage of news and current affairs.

Of course news and information will be available via the internet and other new media, but most of the listeners who have access to that technology have already shifted to it. More than 10 million listeners do not have reliable access to the internet or to television, and they would be cut off from the BBC completely if the service were to close. The existence of the BBC’s Hindi broadcasting augments the depth of the BBC’s English language coverage, granting reporters access that they might not otherwise have. Politicians, especially those from the Hindi-speaking north, know and interact with the BBC primarily through the Hindi service. The service has a wide range of local part-time correspondents and information suppliers who provide critical input that goes to the rest of the BBC as well.

The BBC will try to pass the buck to the Minister. It will say that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has stated that it believes that £25 million of World Service expenditure counts as official development. It is talking about commercial opportunities, and it will ask for funding from the Department for International Development, but I want to put the spotlight firmly on the BBC, which has taken this decision.

Let me end on this note. During the battle of Crete, Admiral Andrew Cunningham was criticised for using Royal Navy ships heavily exposed to assault from German aircraft to evacuate the Army to Egypt. Cunningham, however, was determined that the Navy would not let the Army down, no matter how many ships it lost. Admiral Cunningham said:

“It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition.”

For 70 years, the BBC has built a tradition of unbiased reporting to the poorest people in the world. We must not let this service down.

Libya and the Middle East

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Monday 7th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

We will continue to provide support as necessary. All accidents in these situations, and certainly deaths, are very regrettable, as we would agree immediately across the House. We have assisted in the evacuation of more than 500 Bangladeshis and more than 6,000 Egyptians. In doing so, their safety is the paramount concern—it is for their safety that we are undertaking the operation in the first place. The hon. Lady can rest assured that the utmost care is being taken. We cannot guarantee that no accidents will happen, but great care is taken and will continue to be taken in the operations.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Realistically, given our resources, or lack thereof, surely there is no way we can or should take the lead in a no-fly zone. Indeed, will my right hon. Friend accept that after two interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq, the British public have not the slightest appetite for getting involved militarily in a third Muslim country?

[Mr Hague]

As I have said, what are not being actively introduced at the moment, but for which we want to do the contingency planning, are measures to protect the civilian population or deliver humanitarian assistance where it is needed. There might be an appetite for that if there is a demonstrable need. I set out several criteria earlier, and any action along those lines should be judged against them. Several hon. Members have drawn attention to previous no-fly zones and conflicts. Should we learn lessons from what has happened? Yes, we certainly should.

Bahrain

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Thursday 17th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Unlike Libya, where demonstrations are also taking place today, Bahrain is a loyal friend of the west. It has started political reforms and is very tolerant of western lifestyles. May I urge my right hon. Friend, before the Government make any criticism of Bahrain, to proceed with extreme caution and say, on behalf of the House of Commons, that the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), with his one-sided views, does not speak for us?

[Mr Hague]

Thankfully, that is the case on all subjects, so it is hardly necessary to make that latter point. My hon. Friend is right—we have had a long friendship for the past 40 years with Bahrain, and it is felt strongly in that country. He is also right to point out that protests have been going on in Libya, where television cameras are not present, so they may not be so much in the news. However, we should remember those protests, too, and we call on the Government in Libya to recognise the right to peaceful protest and to avoid the excessive use of force. That message should also be conveyed clearly today.

European Union Bill

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

The group relates specifically to clause 18, and I shall explain a little of the amendments’ purpose.

Amendment 41 would insert at the beginning of the clause, which covers the status of EU law, the simple words:

“The sovereignty of the United Kingdom Parliament is hereby reaffirmed.”

Amendment 10 would add to the end of the clause the simple phrase,

“and not by virtue of a common law principle”.

The effect of that would be to prevent the courts from applying a common law principle, which has become entrenched in certain thinking in influential academic and legal circles, and in the Supreme Court. The explanatory notes suggest that it has also become entrenched in the Government’s thinking.

I understand that the explanatory notes may be in the course of being corrected, as the European Scrutiny Committee and one of its main witnesses suggested. However, precisely what effect that will have remains to be seen. Perhaps we can debate that this afternoon. After all, the explanatory notes may have been prepared to aid interpretation of the statute—statute law is open to interpretation by the courts—but will the removal of the relevant words necessarily have the effect of preventing those most distinguished and eminent Supreme Court judges from departing from principles and doctrines to which they have apparently become wedded?

The two new clauses are directly relevant to clause 18 to ensure parliamentary sovereignty in view of the continuing trend towards judicial interpretation along the lines that I have already expressed. It is a matter of grave concern to many of us—far more than may turn up in the Lobbies today—that the courts, on a range of matters, have accumulated greater and greater influence, and, indeed, action, in relation to their judgments on Acts of Parliament. I refer not merely to interpretation or construction of the words but the underlying judicial activism, sometimes of a quasi-political nature. That has caused a great deal of concern, which has arisen particularly in the case of the Human Rights Act 1998. Although we are not discussing that today, there is an analogy because the charter of fundamental rights, which mirrors the Human Rights Act, is part and parcel of the arrangements under the Lisbon treaty. In that area of law, if there were any inconsistency between legislation—many centuries old and based on well established democratic principles—passed in this Westminster Parliament, would the judiciary presume to make judgments about the nature or legal effects of parliamentary sovereignty?

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend deal with the canard put around by Foreign Office lawyers that if his amendment is passed and we add talk of sovereignty to the statute, judges will be given a chance to intervene because it is not mentioned elsewhere? Surely the issue is clear: Parliament is sovereign, so why do we not just pass this amendment?

[Mr Cash]

My hon. Friend is right and I am grateful to him. Indeed, I suspect that many other colleagues, not only on the Back Benches but among the ministerial ranks, agree with me strongly. I also suspect that many Opposition Members feel exactly the same way. I hope, although without too much confidence, that one or two Liberal Democrats might take a similar view, although I would not wish to over-egg the pudding on that score.

European Union Bill

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Tuesday 7th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

That is simply because we are not giving away those powers. The European External Action Service was agreed, established and given its role by the Lisbon treaty. My right hon. Friend may regret that, and I may regret that, but it was given by the Lisbon treaty. On the City, the European Union has long had the power to legislate in this area, which has equally long been subject to qualified majority voting and co-decision with the European Parliament. On economic governance, it is clear—for instance, in the Van Rompuy report on economic governance—that the proposed sanctions do not apply to the United Kingdom and that the proposed changes will not affect the United Kingdom. I reject my right hon. Friend’s basic thesis.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Is not the argument between my right hon. Friends precisely the problem? Surely Parliament must be sovereign because the people must be sovereign. What will happen in future if there is some row about whether a referendum should take place or not once the Bill becomes law? Will not our affairs then become justiciable? Is that not an attack on the sovereignty of Parliament, which we must believe in?

[Mr Hague]

I shall come to that point. It requires clarity in the Bill, as far as possible, on the circumstances in which a referendum would or would not be held. That is the safeguard against what my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) is complaining about in relation to rights that have been given away in the past. It would have been good to have a referendum on those. The Bill is about the future—let us be clear about that—and we have to make it as clear as possible.