Dermatology Funding

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Wednesday 4th December 2013 Westminster Hall

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. I am grateful for this opportunity to debate issues relating to the provision of dermatology in the NHS. This area has received little parliamentary attention over the years, given the considerable morbidity and mortality for which skin disease is responsible. Indeed, I think I am right in saying that this is the first debate in the House of Commons in several years on dermatology and how it is treated in the NHS.

I should declare an interest, because we are always supposed to. I have a skin condition called rosacea. It is not that serious; I take antibiotics every day and it is controllable, but it has, of course, led me to take an interest in this subject.

In preparing for this debate, I consulted widely among the different interests in skin disease, and I am grateful for the insights that I was given. It is noteworthy that the same themes emerged from all quarters. Skin disease is extensive and has a great impact. It results in profound psychological consequences for many, especially for those with severe variants of conditions. It is under-treated in the NHS, and there are commissioning issues that relate partly to dermatology’s continuing to be something of a Cinderella disease. Talking to people, I heard the expression “Cinderella disease” time and again.

Most crucially, there is wholly inadequate training, notably among general practitioners, to enable doctors to handle the dermatology cases that will come their way in day-to-day practice. Why is this? There is a view that dermatology does not matter and that it does not kill. This is both complacent and wrong. Many skin diseases have horrendous effects, even when they are not fatal. Skin cancer is a major killer, and there would be benefits from renewed focus on this disease, both to help people avoid it in the first place and to identify and treat it quickly where it occurs.

The statistics on the burden of skin disease are eye-popping. Some 54% of the United Kingdom population experience a skin condition in any 12-month period. Of those, 14% seek medical advice, usually from a doctor or nurse in the community. Some skin conditions will be trivial, but many are not. Skin conditions are the most frequent reason for people to consult their GP with a new problem. Some 24% of the population visit their GP with a skin problem each year.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on obtaining a debate on a subject that has not been discussed for a long time. I have looked at facts and figures on dermatology services in my constituency. Would it surprise him to hear that, in the first six months of the year, the trust’s dermatology department had 501 day cases, 4,160 new out-patient appointments and 7,951 follow-up out-patient appointments, and undertook more than 3,292 out-patient procedures? Does not that show the demand in the system for dermatological services?

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[Sir Edward Leigh]

I am not surprised. I found similar figures in Lincolnshire. I should think that the same sort of problem will be found anywhere in the England.

The most common reasons for people visiting their GP are skin infections and eczema. Nearly a fifth of all GP consultations relate to a skin disease. Atopic eczema is the most common form of eczema. All my children have had it, and one of my boys suffered badly. Some children suffer grievously from it. It can affect people of all ages, but is primarily seen in children and affects up to 20% of children by the age of seven. Most people grow out of it, but a number of adults continue to show symptoms at a later age, some having the condition for life.

Eczema is typically characterised by red, sore and itchy patches of skin. For those who have it or those, such as parents, who have to care for a child with it, eczema can be highly debilitating. Sleep deprivation is common in children with eczema and, therefore, of course, in their parents. It causes major disruption to family life, not least because of the application of endless amounts of ointment. I know all about that.

Psoriasis, from which my brother and my mother suffered, has serious effects. It affects only 2% to 3% of the population, but often has devastating consequences for those who have it. Its onset is typically at 15 to 24 years, which is such a crucial stage in a person’s development. It is an immune condition that triggers excess replacement skin cells, which can lead to raised plaques on the skin that can be flaky, sore and itchy. It is a serious problem.

Then there is acne—I know all about that, too—a condition most commonly associated with adolescent teenagers. Although the condition is thought to be linked with hormonal changes during puberty, some 80% of young people above the age of 11 will have a degree of it at some point. It can affect people well into their adult lives, and it can be severe. Acne scarring is permanent. About 5% of women and 1% of men have acne over the age of 25. In a not inconsiderable number of cases, acne is widespread and ever-present, producing feelings of shame, despair and even, I am sorry to say, suicide in some cases. Acne is particularly tricky, psychologically, because it is often at its worst when the young emerging adult is feeling at their most self-conscious.

Other common conditions seen by specialists include vitiligo, urticaria, rosacea, herpes simplex, shingles, vascular lesions, benign skin tumours, benign moles, solar keratosis, viral warts, non-malignant skin cancers—I know all about that, too—and malignant melanomas. The list is almost endless, running as it does to a couple of thousand different conditions, each of which can have profound effects on the lives of those who have them. People who suffer from these diseases often do not want to speak about them. I am attempting, in this small debate, to give these people a voice.

It is worth saying that serious psychological effects are sparked by skin disease. We live in a society where we are subjected daily to images of perfection, selling everything from make-up, fashion and holidays to ice-cream. Skin conditions are sometimes very visible, and some people are highly prejudiced against those who have them, and make little attempt to hide that. That can lead to stress, depression, anxiety, and other related problems.

There is a beautiful picture in the Louvre of a child reaching out to an old man, probably their grandfather. The child is beautiful and the old man, who obviously suffers from rosacea, is deformed and hideous. The point of the painting is that beauty lies inside, not on the skin, but that is not often the view of modern society, so skin conditions lead to psychological stress.

Many of these facts—I could go on, but I will not—are set out in detail in the recent report on the psychological effects of skin disease published by the all-party group on skin. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) who chairs that group and does it well.

Despite the fact that skin disorders are both serious and the most likely reason for someone to go to their GP, training and knowledge of dermatology among primary care health professionals is generally very limited. Perhaps “very” is wrong, but it is certainly limited. Astonishingly, there is no compulsory requirement for dermatology training in undergraduate or postgraduate medical programmes of study. Dermatology is still not included in all undergraduate medical school curriculums; it is optional in some, and untested in others. In five to six years of medical training to become a doctor, the average medical school offers—I found this incredible— less than a fortnight of teaching in dermatology. This is often combined with another so-called minor field of medicine. I am told that many miss this teaching altogether, not regarding it as important, and joke about taking a “dermaholiday”. That is like the NHS employing an army of plumbers who are highly knowledgeable about boilers and blocked drains but who do not know how to trace a leak or mend a pipe. By failing to provide adequate education in dermatology, which is an important field of medicine, we are badly failing to meet the needs of patients.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. He is setting out his stall extremely well. According to the consultant dermatologist at Scunthorpe general hospital who contacted me, 15% of patients presenting to GPs have a skin disorder of one kind or another, which underlines the hon. Gentleman’s point on the importance of including dermatology in GP training.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

In a moment, I will address the fact that skin diseases can have fatal consequences. As GPs often do not have adequate training, they are not able to spot conditions that can be very dangerous.

Training is important. In a 2008 survey of final-year medical students, only 52% of 449 respondents said that they felt they had the necessary skills to manage skin conditions. A lack of education and training may lead to fatal errors, and I stress that point because skin disease is not only about psychological damage. Skin lesions mistakenly taken to be benign can lead to cancer. Conversely, inappropriate referrals to secondary care can be costly and are blocking up big parts of secondary care. As awareness of litigation increases in the NHS, GPs are, unsurprisingly, less and less willing to take risks, so they refer more and more patients to secondary care. I understand that the general hospital in Lincolnshire—this echoes the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan)—has seen a 26% rise in dermatology referrals for secondary care in the past year, and it is not alone.

The exploding incidence of skin cancer, an ageing population and side effects from new potent drugs are all driving referral rates. It has been guesstimated that there are 100,000 cases of skin cancer a year in the UK, but the number is not known for sure because the NHS does not collect figures for cancers that are not melanomas. Work this year suggests that the number may be nearer to 700,000; that is what dermatologists tell me, because they are dealing with such a volume of cases, day by day.

Studies show that the skill of GPs in diagnosing skin lesions needs improvement, and other studies raise concerns about the standard of skin surgery offered in primary care. In 2012, the Royal College of General Practitioners updated its curriculum statement on the care of people with skin problems. The statement goes a long way towards recognising dermatology as a key component of a GP’s training. The statement sets out a number of expected key competences within the field, but crucially, dermatology remains an optional component. For undergraduates, the British Association of Dermatologists recommends a two-week full-time attachment to a dermatology unit, with a realistic assessment at the end of the course. The association thinks that dermatology should also be taught when undergraduates work with general practitioners in the community. When trainee GPs are undertaking their two-year hospital placement, a six-month post in dermatology alone, in a combined post such as dermatology and general medicine, or in a combined minor specialty rotation would go a long way towards helping trainee GPs to take a special interest in dermatology, which is what we need.

The GP training period is likely to be lengthened by 12 months. I urge all interested parties—Health Education England, the royal colleges, the General Medical Council and the ultimate employer, NHS England—to use half or all of that extra time on a proper dermatology rotation, which would ensure that the GPs of the future are properly equipped to address their future work load. If that is to happen, funding must be made available to ensure that there is adequate consultant time to train budding GPs and to pay their salary while they undergo the hospital training.

[Mrs Gillan]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful argument. Does he agree that there is a worrying lack of provision for the psychosocial aspects of skin conditions? Is he familiar with Changing Faces, which, among other things, provides skin camouflage clinics? It sent me an e-mail when I was preparing for this debate saying that the King’s Fund has stated that there are only 3.7 posts across the country providing support for the psychosocial aspects of skin conditions, and the funding for those posts is under threat. Does he propose that funding should be found to try to support that vital work?

[Sir Edward Leigh]

I entirely agree. I talked to a doctor recently who said that one of his patients had not dared to go out for 20 years without wearing enormous amounts of special make-up because she was so worried about her condition. We should take that very seriously, because it affects hundreds of thousands of our fellow citizens and their feeling of self-worth.

The lack of dermatology education applies not only to GPs but to nurses and pharmacists, who also play a key role in the management of patients with skin disease. High and ever increasing sales of over-the-counter skin products suggest that people buy many products from pharmacies, yet training of pharmacists in the management of skin problems is limited, and evidence that they are providing appropriate advice is lacking.

There is considerable potential for improving self-care through the provision of high-quality patient information and the development of the knowledge and skills of community pharmacists in skin diseases. That would save the NHS money, as well as improve patient care, and it is a nettle waiting to be grasped.

The General Medical Council, working with the Royal College of General Practitioners, the British Association of Dermatologists, the Royal College of Nursing and the Royal Pharmaceutical Society, plus Health Education England and NHS England, has a duty to ensure that urgent priority is given to the provision of proper dermatological training for all GPs, nurses and pharmacists. That training should surely emphasise that most inflammatory skin diseases are long-term conditions and are likely to need ongoing care, often throughout a patient’s life. Similarly, the psychological effects of skin disease should be considered an integral part of any dermatological training course; I echo my right hon. Friend’s important point on that issue. There is good evidence for the effectiveness of general practitioners with a special interest in dermatology working within appropriate accreditation frameworks. More needs to be done to expand that group of clinicians, which is still all too small.

In addition to poor training at primary care level, there is also an issue with the number of consultant dermatologists. I pay tribute to my consultant, Professor Chris Bunker, who is well known in the field and is president of the British Association of Dermatologists. Compared with mainland Europe, the ratio of consultant dermatologists to the general population remains low in the UK, at 1:130,000. It is estimated that there is a 20% shortfall in consultant numbers in the UK.

Furthermore, there are significant issues related to vacancies in dermatology consultant posts—there were some 180 consultant vacancies at the last count. That is due both to an inability to attract people to posts in remote areas and to the widespread problem of funding being available for a post but the relevant deanery refusing to provide a training number that allows the post to be filled by a trainee.

As well as being unpleasant and demoralising for patients, some skin conditions kill; that must be emphasised. Skin conditions are not just a psychological problem. There were nearly 4,000 deaths due to skin disease in 2005, of which 1,817 were due to malignant melanoma, which is now the UK’s most common cancer. That is against a background of 13,000 malignant melanomas each year, a level that has increased 50% in little more than a decade. Those figures continue to rise, driven by the wide availability of cheap holidays in the sun, the continued fashion for using sunbeds and the inadequate resourcing of awareness campaigns. We must do more about that; improved public funding for awareness campaigns, better training and stronger regulation of the use of sunbeds are some of the most obvious answers to the problem, yet very little, if anything, ever happens. Despite skin disease being very common, the direct cost to the NHS of providing skin care is relatively modest. The overall direct cost to the NHS in England and Wales was some £1.82 billion at the last estimate, in 2006.

As of October 2013, there is no policy lead for dermatology in the Department of Health or NHS England; I put that point directly to the Minister. The majority of dermatology services are commissioned by clinical commissioning groups, but national oversight is necessary to co-ordinate care across the country and to drive the agenda. Prior to the April 2013 switchover, primary care trusts were responsible for commissioning dermatology services, but the Department did at least have a policy lead on overseeing service provision. No similar post now exists in NHS England, so no one—I hope the Minister can reassure us on this—champions this area, spots good practice, or drives change.

Earl Howe recently stated in the other place that dermatology would be spread across the five domains of NHS England, and that it would not, as was previously thought, sit primarily under long-term conditions in domain 2. That surely only heightens the need for a director to co-ordinate policy across the five domains. Even if only a junior post were to be created, patients and health professionals would be given a clear line of accountability and a person to whom they could appeal who was above their local CCG lead for commissioning. Given the prevalence of skin disease, a national clinical director for dermatology, which is what I am calling for, would not look out of place among the long list of such posts at NHS England. I urge it to consider such an appointment.

There is a lack of sources of peer-group, independent advice for people with skin conditions. Patient support organisations are mainly charitable institutions that rely, for the most part, on donations from individuals and pharmaceutical companies. People with skin disease place great value on the information and help provided by dermatology patient support groups. Skin disease is not a well-resourced area, and such groups struggle to make ends meet. There is no group at all, for example, to provide support to people with acne, the previous group having run out of funds some years ago. Given that such charities are almost certainly a cost-effective way to provide what might be life-saving support to patients, perhaps the NHS should consider being a little more generous in its funding.

I thank all those who have helped me to prepare this speech, particularly the British Association of Dermatologists. It is clear that a small number of important steps would make the greatest difference in this area of disease, including the appointment of a national clinical director to co-ordinate learning around the NHS and to drive uptake of new ideas and change. More important, however, is persuading the relevant bodies that I have mentioned to ensure that undergraduates emerge from medical school with a reasonable grasp of dermatology and that newly appointed GPs can recognise a malignant melanoma, which is probably the most important point of all. Those changes alone would have far-reaching, positive consequences for dermatology and for those with skin disease, and I urge the Minister to consider what can be done to make them a reality. I hope that this debate will make some difference.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. I pay tribute to the hon. Members who have spoken today and particularly to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) for securing the debate. As has been illustrated throughout, this is an under-discussed area and it seems to be neglected in other ways, too. The debate has been valuable, and I have certainly learnt a lot during its course and in my preparation for it. Inevitably, there will be some points on which I cannot give a full answer today, but I shall endeavour to follow up with hon. Members if I cannot. I also pay tribute to the all-party parliamentary group on skin. I have looked at the recommendations in its recent report, and I pay tribute to the members of the group who have spoken today.

We have heard from several Members how many people are affected by skin disease and I shall not go over those numbers, which are very large indeed. There is a huge range of skin diseases; some are manageable and others are life-threatening, as we have heard. All have an impact on people’s lives and, in particular, can affect their personal appearance, as Members have highlighted in moving terms. In that way, skin problems perhaps represent more of a day-to-day challenge than many other conditions. They impact on all aspects of life, such as employment and personal relationships. It is, therefore, important to ensure that people with skin disease receive both the treatment and support that they need. As today’s debate has highlighted, considerable challenges remain, many of which we have not necessarily bottomed out during the debate, but we have begun to highlight some.

Let me first plug the national framework. Skin disease is a long-term condition, and through the NHS mandate we have made it clear to NHS England that we want to see the NHS among the best in Europe at supporting people with long-term conditions. We want them to live healthily and independently, with better control over the care that they receive. Those improvements are monitored through the NHS outcomes framework, for which ambitious expectations have been set out. In turn, the NHS will monitor the performance of clinical commissioning groups through the clinical commissioning group outcomes indicator set, on the quality of the services and health outcomes achieved through that commissioning.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough highlighted, commissioning for most dermatology services is a matter for CCGs. They are better placed to use their clinical insight, local knowledge and local relationships to do excellent commissioning at a local level than Ministers in Whitehall, but I take on board the challenge about the more specialist areas. We are not leaving CCGs to commission without support. NHS England is working closely with them to ensure high-quality commissioning, and it has established commissioning support units and quality surveillance groups across the country. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) said, it is certainly something that I can raise on appropriate visits when the opportunity arises. As the Public Health Minister, given that so much of my portfolio is localised, I am very keen to draw attention to good practice where we see it.

There is an example in the area of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough, where his local CCG has introduced a teledermatology pathway, which allows patients to be reviewed at their own practice. We also heard of an excellent example from Buckinghamshire, which I was speaking about with my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) during the break for the Division. The pathway in the area of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough is being implemented across 10 practices from September. If it is successful, it will be rolled out across all the practices in the Lincolnshire West CCG. I am always interested to hear about good practice. A number of kind invitations for visits have been made during the debate and I look forward to following those up with Members so we can highlight people who are being innovative in a way that will help other commissioners.

As has been mentioned, with some highly specialist dermatology services for conditions that cannot be treated locally, it is appropriate for NHS England to commission them directly. NHS England has set out detailed service specifications for the services that it directly commissions. I realise that a number of Members have made points about the national clinical director, and that issue has been raised in other contexts, too. It is a matter for NHS England whether it appoints a national clinical director. I understand, from asking it the question, that there are no current plans to introduce an NCD for dermatology, but it is continuing to discuss with the British Association of Dermatologists the best ways to improve outcomes for patients.

As has been said, aspects of treatment of people with skin conditions can be considered under any of the five domains. That change in the new NHS focuses on people as individuals rather than on their conditions, which is why the patient pathway and not the organisations that treat them is given the closest attention. Many of the national clinical directors have cross-cutting roles—I have come across that in other areas of my portfolio—rather than roles that are related to individual medical conditions, so it is not the case that dermatology is being singled out. Clinical directors often cut across.

There is interest in the research—points have made about it—that is going on to get better results in dermatology and to come up with new treatment, so I shall touch on that. I reassure the Chamber that investment by the National Institute for Health Research in skin research increased from £4.7 million in 2010-11 to £8.7 million in 2012-13. That includes the NIHR investing £2.6 million over five years in the biomedical research centre at Guy’s and St Thomas’s and the King’s College London centre, which is leading the way in research on cutaneous medicine. The NIHR is dedicated to translating these scientific discoveries into improvements in treatment, which we hope will benefit patients at the earliest opportunity.

The NIHR has also awarded nearly £2 million to Salford Royal NHS Foundation Trust to undertake a programme of research on psoriasis. The studies will look at crucial issues, including individual patient experience, difficulties faced by service providers and identifying levels of risk in populations. I hope that the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) will take particular comfort from that, and I am sure that she will be interested in the outcome of that programme. The NIHR is also investing nearly £1 million in a trial of silk therapeutic clothing for the long-term management of eczema in children.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough will know that NICE has also published guidance on a range of dermatological conditions, including atopic eczema in children and psoriasis, and it has issued quality standards on those topics. NHS England is statutorily required to have regard to NICE quality standards, and we expect health and care professionals to take NICE guidance on the treatment of relevant conditions fully into account when deciding how to treat a patient.

NICE has also recommended a number of drugs for the treatment of dermatological conditions such as eczema and psoriasis. Patients have a right in the NHS constitution to access drugs and treatments recommended by NICE technology appraisal guidance that their clinicians want to prescribe.

As I acknowledged earlier, and as has been very much illustrated during the debate, skin disease can have adverse psychological effects on patients. The NICE quality standard on psoriasis recognises that and sets out that people with psoriasis should be offered an assessment of how their physical, psychological and social well-being is affected when they are diagnosed and when they undergo treatment. It is the responsibility of all commissioners, providers and clinicians to ensure that patients receive the psychological and emotional support that they need. Hon. Members may be aware of the IAPT—improving access to psychological therapies —programme, which is an NHS programme rolling out services across England offering interventions for people with depression and anxiety disorders. I understand that as part of that programme, NHS England is looking at how best to support people with psychological problems arising from their physical problems. That issue was raised a number of times during the debate.

I listened carefully to the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), who highlighted that the issue of Roaccutane was discussed only yesterday in the Chamber. It is associated with rare, serious side effects and can only be prescribed by or under the supervision of a consultant dermatologist. The BAD has published guidelines for its members about when to prescribe it and how best to monitor patients for adverse effects during treatment. I will certainly make a point of catching up with my hon. Friend the Minister of State, who responded to that debate. I will ensure that we touch base with regard to the important subject that my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North has raised today.

The issue of GPs’ and other health workers’ education and training has come up a lot. My hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley made it the focus of his speech. It is important that health professionals have the right training. Training and education of health professionals is a matter for Health Education England and the royal colleges. NHS England is statutorily required to have regard to the NICE guidelines, and we expect health professionals to have regard to them, too. I am aware that the BAD has produced toolkits and guidance. They are valuable resources for health professionals and should be promoted widely. NHS England has responsibility to support CCGs, as I said, with commissioning guidance and tools and it can flag up the relevant dermatology guidance and standards.

I understand that NHS England’s domain director for long-term conditions regularly meets the president of the BAD, who is also an adviser to the all-party group on skin. I am sure that the issues about the education of GPs are raised at those meetings.

The current framework for accreditation and re-accreditation of GPs with a special interest remains under review, following the transition to the new arrangements for the NHS in England. NHS England is working with the Royal College of General Practitioners and with dermatologists to produce an improved and consistent accreditation system. It is expected that there will be a report early next year, and I am sure that there will be interest from hon. Members in that.

I am concerned about the point that has been made about the shortcuts being taken on some of the training courses. I thought that what was highlighted today was quite alarming. I have heard that before. It is certainly something that I will put on the agenda for my forthcoming meeting with the Royal College of General Practitioners. I will report back to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough, who raised the matter and said that there was considerable interest in it in the House.

Since 2002, there has been a 40% increase in consultant dermatologists, but I accept that that is from a modest base. It is clear that, although there was an increase of 28% between 2002 and 2012 in the total number of staff, we still have more to do, but things are improving. Health Education England needs to ensure that we have the right dermatological work force. I will ensure that it is aware of the issues that have been raised today and highlight the concerns of hon. Members.

Many of the problems highlighted in the debate have not really been funding issues, which I suppose makes a change in an NHS debate. They have actually come out of a lack of engagement that hon. Members have highlighted. I think that some hon. Members have even alluded to there being a sense of complacency sometimes with regard to skin conditions and they asked whether such conditions are taken sufficiently seriously. I am not sure that in this debate we have quite got to the bottom of why clinicians perhaps do not choose to specialise in or pursue this line of work, but today’s debate is useful in highlighting that.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

Will the Minister take away to her fellow Ministers the point that the psychology of all this is very important and, in particular, read the report from the group chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford)? A lot of people, when they poke fun at others because of their appearance —their skin colour or something else—do not realise that they are causing them psychological damage. That is the particularly the case with children. It is an important point that we want to be taken away from the debate.

[Jane Ellison]

I am very happy to give a commitment to take that point away and I will certainly bear it in mind in other discussions that I have.

I am glad that some hon. Members have taken the opportunity offered by the debate to highlight the growing issue of malignant melanoma. It is absolutely right to say that we need to make more people aware of the dangers of skin cancer. I was struck by the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North about the regional variation and the fact that in her area it is a particular problem.

The Department has funded Cancer Research UK to continue to test approaches to encourage, in particular, men over the age of 50 to visit their GP if they have signs of skin cancer. I have to say that, if anyone can come up with a magic way of making men over 50 approach their GP about anything, that would be very welcome and they would be rewarded by all parts of the NHS.

Psychological Therapies

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair)]

Order. In addition to the Opposition spokesperson and the Minister, three hon. Members have intimated that they wish to catch my eye. I am sure that they will keep an eye on the clock.

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[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

Like my colleagues, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) on bringing this important debate before the House. We know from this morning’s radio bulletins that the discussion is topical and timely, and I am pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to it.

My focus will be on the need to broaden the scope of what is offered under IAPT, particularly in relation to couple relationships. I strongly believe that it is hugely in the interests of the NHS and the Department of Health to realise the significance of strong couple relationships to good health, which is essential to protecting the NHS budget. That point is really important—[Interruption].

[Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair)]

Order. Officials should not talk to a Member of Parliament while the debate is continuing.

Health and Social Care

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Monday 13th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

I shall come to that point directly, because the Queen’s Speech is a diversion from the real issues, an attempt to say, “Look over here at this other issue” and divert people’s attention from the chaos the Government have visited on the NHS.

On health and care, our objection is not to the modest measures the Government are proposing. We will of course wait to see the detail, but it sounds as though we will be able to give our support to many of them. Our objection to the Gracious Speech is not to what is in it, but to what is not in it and to the unpleasant political strategy that lies behind it. As a response to the developing crisis in our health and care system, it is inadequate. Worse, however, it tries to disguise that fact by pointing the finger at others. Forget compassionate Conservatism; this is straight back to the dog-whistle tactics—failed tactics, I might add—of the 2005 general election. This is the coded message the Government want the Queen’s Speech to send: “You see all those problems with accident and emergency departments? Well it’s all down to immigration. It’s nothing to do with us.” It is a Crosby-fied Queen’s Speech that is more about positioning and politics than a serious programme for government.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

On a real issue that concerns people, there have been 1.1 million immigrants from eastern Europe since 2004, so I repeat the question very courteously put by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge). The right hon. Gentleman talks about leadership, so will he show some and tell us whether the Labour party would grant the British people a referendum on Europe? Yes or no?

[Andy Burnham]

It is interesting, isn’t it? Here we are, in the middle of this Parliament, discussing the Queen’s Speech and health and social care, and what is the only issue Conservative Members can raise? Europe! We are talking about people waiting hours on end in A and E, about ambulances queuing outside, about a 111 service that does not ring anybody back, and about social care close to collapse, but they have nothing to say about those issues. Instead, they bang on about Europe. That is because they are preparing the ground for the 2015 election. The nasty party is back, scapegoating vulnerable people and stoking social division as a means of diverting attention from its own record, so get ready to hear how problems in the NHS are caused by health tourism and are nothing to do with the coalition’s toxic medicine of fragmentation, privatisation and budget cuts.

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[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

I represent a Lincolnshire seat. I wish to say a bit about opinion in Lincolnshire and relay it to the House, if Members are not already aware of it from the local election results.

Coincidentally, today is the feast day of St Earconwald, who was born in 693 in Lindsey, north Lincolnshire. Various miracles were attributed to him. For example, when he was elderly and in his wheelchair, the wheels fell off but it kept going. I am reminded of how the coalition still keeps going, despite its wheels occasionally falling off. I think we may come to a time before the end of this Parliament when, such is the divergence of opinion—perfectly honourably felt—between very honourable people such as the Minister on the Front Bench and me, that for the sake of the nation we may have to bring this coalition to an end and honestly put our separate programmes to the people.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

When?

[Mr Leigh]

I have no idea when that will happen.

I said I wanted to talk about opinion in Lincolnshire. Despite all the Government’s success in their central aim of attempting to cut the deficit—we have cut it by a third—people there undoubtedly feel that their voice is not being heard. We have to listen to that voice. If I may be forgiven for being party political for a moment, I should point out that there is absolutely no enthusiasm for the Labour party, because people have not forgotten who created the borrowing mess we are in. We heard a lot about plain packaging from the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), who led for the Opposition today, but the whole Labour party is plain packaged. We have no idea, frankly, what it will do.

[Barbara Keeley]

I cannot speak for all parts of the country, but I campaigned in the recent county elections in Lancashire and there was huge enthusiasm for the Labour party.

[Mr Leigh]

We will have to see what happens in various parts of the country.

It is said that this is a thin Queen’s Speech. As a Conservative, I do not object to a thin Queen’s Speech. I do not object to deleting unnecessary legislation either, whether on minimal alcohol pricing or plain packaging. I view all these as creatures of the nanny state, so it is good conservatism that we are not introducing them. However, if we are to have a Queen’s Speech that is, shall we say, somewhat light and has lots of room in it, that means there are various other things that we could do. One thing we do not need to do, I would have thought, is persevere with the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill. I will not repeat all the arguments, but this is an area where many people in Lincolnshire feel that their opinions are being not represented.

If anybody wants to look at an excellent article on this subject, they should read Charles Moore’s in The Daily Telegraph on Saturday. There is a real problem. We are trying to deal with an economic crisis and the very first thing we will do after this Queen’s Speech debate—although it was not mentioned in it; as far as the Government are concerned, this is the Bill that dare not speak its name—is have two days on same-sex marriage. The Bill will then go to the House of Lords. There are enormous, complex issues at stake for the Church of England. I have no doubt that we are moving to a world in which the Church of England will be allowed to conduct only religious marriages, but will not be able to complete them. They will have to be completed by the state because of equality legislation. These are serious issues. The Government could easily mend fences with many of their supporters by putting the Bill out to further consultation.

[Steve McCabe]

If the coalition survives longer than the hon. Gentleman suggests, does he think that next time round it might be an idea for the Government to have a debate and then produce a Queen’s Speech, rather than producing a Queen’s Speech and then having a debate about what should not be in it?

[Mr Leigh]

That is an interesting argument. I have appended my name to the important amendment to the Queen’s Speech, and we should have a serious debate on the issue. This is not Conservative Members of Parliament obsessing about Europe; this is a real issue for people. It is no longer a dry as dust issue.

In Boston, a seat with a 12,000 Conservative majority, UKIP won nearly every council seat two weeks ago. Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), the people there are not particularly worried about all the details of European legislation, but they are worried about immigration. I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) said in his very measured speech: people in Lincolnshire are not closet racists. They welcome Polish, Lithuanian and Latvian people, but they want their public services to be supported, when, on the coast of Lincolnshire, public services are overwhelmed. Since 2004, 1.1 million have arrived in this country from eastern Europe, and we have to address that issue.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Leigh]

I am sorry; I have only a short time left.

Speaking personally as a comfortable, middle-class person living in the hinterland of the beautiful Lincolnshire wolds—where, incidentally, we held all the seats we were defending—and in a comfortable part of London, I have no angst about Poles. They are hard working, and I think that most of them will go back. Their religion is estimable, and I have no complaint whatever against them. But we should listen to the people who are worried about public services, and this is therefore a European issue.

I personally believe that we should listen to those people and that we should have a referendum. I would also say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) that I believe that the Prime Minister is absolutely a man of honour and a gentleman, and there is no doubt in my mind that if he is still Prime Minister in 2017 we will have that referendum. The trouble is that ordinary people—if I may use that expression—do not think like us. They do not think in terms of four-year Parliaments; they think about now. The question they ask is, “If this is such an important issue, why can’t we have a referendum in the next two years?”

There should at least be a mandate referendum that we can put to the British people, asking whether we should have a new relationship with Europe based on political co-operation and economic free trade. If we fail to listen to the people, we will create a sense of alienation and, despite all our success in driving through the Government’s central economic policies and tackling the deficit—the reason that the coalition was created and what we are really about—that would eat away at the support for the coalition. A sense of alienation is created when people are worried about their public services.

People are worried about other issues as well. In the middle of my constituency, the Government are erecting wind turbines more than 150 metres high—taller than the highest point in the Lincolnshire wolds—that are being paid for by ordinary people living in terraced houses in Gainsborough. They are paying £100 a year, and the money is going straight into the pockets of rich farmers, all in the name of dealing with global warming—if indeed there is global warming, if indeed carbon emissions are causing it and if indeed wind farms will make any difference. That all adds to people’s sense of alienation.

People also worry about the budget for international development. I am personally in favour of spending money on international development, but we have a commitment to spend 0.7% of our gross national product, for which there is no scientific basis. As we reduce the number of staff in the Department for International Development, we are loading more burdens on the remaining staff to hand out more money. That is simply not good economics. It is not a good way to run a Department.

I do not believe we should ring-fence the budget of any Department. We should spend wisely and carefully on the right things at the right time. Whether we are talking about same-sex marriage, about the EU referendum or about the DFID budget, we must recognise that people are feeling a sense of alienation, and that good, strong Conservative voters do not feel that their Government are representing them all the time. Let us also put the focus on the Labour party, but let us concentrate on the core issue of getting rid of the deficit. Let us make that the successful mission of this Parliament.

Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

We are piloting the scheme to ensure that we do not end up discriminating against nurses for financial reasons. We want to attract the best people into the profession, whatever their financial background.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Every time there is a scandal, the response of the British political establishment is to load more controls, accountability and bureaucracy on professionals, yet every nurse and doctor I meet is fed up with what already happens. As a result of the reforms, will the Secretary of State assure us that we will now trust professionals to get on with the job they love?

[Mr Hunt]

I agree with those sentiments strongly. In parallel to this process and these changes, I have asked the NHS Confederation to recommend how we can reduce the bureaucratic burden on hospital front-line staff by a third, precisely because I want to avoid the issues that my hon. Friend mentions. This is about freeing up time for people at the front line, and one way is to have an inspection system in which everyone has confidence. Once there is the confidence that problems will be identified, it becomes much easier, as has happened in the education system, to give more freedom to people on the front line.

Liverpool Care Pathway

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

I am glad to have this opportunity and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) for raising this important subject. We all know that the Liverpool care pathway was devised with the best of intentions. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) that none of us wants to end or take away palliative care. We all want to relieve pain and we all want people to die with dignity, but there are serious concerns about the Liverpool care pathway and that is why this debate is so important. Those concerns have been expressed by physicians. It was physicians—ethicists—who started this debate, not the newspapers. The newspapers did not start the ball rolling and we should be aware of that. Professor Peter Millard, emeritus professor of geriatrics at the university of London, and Dr Peter Hargreaves, palliative care consultant at St Luke’s cancer centre in Guildford, have warned of the risk of “backdoor euthanasia”—their words—and that economic factors are being included when treatment is considered. We must be aware of these concerns, which were originally expressed by clinicians. However, I believe that it is one of the chief duties of those of us in this House who are not clinicians to speak up in defence of the vulnerable, the voiceless and those who are sometimes forgotten.

It is simply unacceptable that vulnerable people, including the poor, the elderly and those who do not have close friends and family to look after them, come to a premature death—an unnecessarily early death. As my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and others have said, in numerous cases, even friends and family caring for a loved one have not been informed that they have been put on the LCP. May I say that my hon. Friend’s speech was a wonderful speech? It drew on her personal experience and was one of the most moving speeches that I have heard in this place over many years.

I sat with my best friend, Piers Merchant, as he was dying; he was a former MP and my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) will remember him well. I saw the morphine being pumped through his body. I am sure that he died early—perhaps a few hours or even a few days early, I do not know—from the morphine. Those of us who loved him wanted him to be cared for properly, but we also did not want him, or any of our loved ones, to be put on an irreversible path to death where that was avoidable.

I welcome the statement by the Department of Health that it

“has consistently made clear that care provision, including for people at the end of life, should be based on need.”

But the question that we need to ask in this debate is this: how are the Department’s intentions implemented on the front line of medicine and hospital care? No doubt there is wonderful care being given in many hospices, but is that gold standard being replicated in all our hospitals?

It is undoubtedly true that the LCP has led to the premature death—it may not be premature by much, but it is still a premature death—of as many as 130,000 hospital patients each year. This is a vital issue that we must address in this House; with 450,000 hospital deaths in Britain each year, that figure of 130,000 is about 29% of the total number of hospital deaths. In fact, this is a frightfully serious issue.

[Robert Flello]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Leigh]

Does the hon. Gentleman mind if I do not give way? I just want to make my speech and give my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) a chance to speak too.

Professor Pullicino, who was quoted earlier, has himself personally intervened to have a patient taken off the LCP who went on to be successfully treated. So, despite the fact that we must listen to clinicians, it is simply impossible to determine satisfactorily that a patient has hours or days left to live, which is one of the worrying flaws of the LCP.

In November, an independent inquiry into the LCP was announced, and I welcome that announcement. My hon. Friend the Minister is doing his job extremely well in this regard, and we respect him as somebody who will genuinely try to get to the truth. He himself has said that there have been too many cases of patients dying on the pathway while their families were not informed, so he is quite right to zero in on that issue. He has said, “This is simply unacceptable.” I echo those words and I hope that he will repeat them when he winds up the debate.

Of course there are people who speak on both sides of this issue, but I believe that any inquiry must be conducted by a suitable variety of individuals and not just by supporters of the LCP. It is not good enough to state, as the Department of Health sometimes does, that the LCP is not euthanasia. It might not be euthanasia and, of course, if it is implemented properly it is not euthanasia. However, it has become obvious to many people that the LCP can be employed, and indeed has been employed, in cases that are highly questionable.

I say to those who have spoken today that what worries me is this: why is it that the average time to death on the LCP is 33 hours? An identical figure for average time to death was found in two consecutive national audits that were conducted two years apart. In the view of many people, that shows that the LCP has a machine-like efficiency in producing death within 33 hours, and that is why some people say that the LCP is in effect a “lethal care pathway”. Statistics suggest that fewer than 5% of patients put on the LCP are taken off it. Why only 5%? There is something wrong here, and the inquiry needs to get to the bottom of it.

I believe that we should appoint a member of the judiciary rather than a medical expert, to carry out the inquiry. Of course, they will have medical advisers, but we should appoint a member of the judiciary rather than just a medical expert to lead the inquiry, so that they can look at this complicated issue with a fresh perspective and a judicial mind.

Thank you for calling me to speak, Mr Weir. In conclusion, I believe that we have a duty to instil confidence in each of the citizens and residents of this country that they live in a society that believes in their inviolable dignity as human beings, and that takes the necessary steps to ensure that they are cared for and looked after when they are ill, especially in the closing moments of their life.

Induced Abortion

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Thank you for calling me to speak, Mr Crausby. People often say that such debates are very emotional, but it is nice that our debate this morning has been calm. I hope I will be very calm too; my wife always says to me that I must be less emotional when I speak, so I shall give a boring little speech that tries to deal with some facts and surveys. I hope that there will not be a lot of controversy about what I say.

According to the most recent figures for this country, one in five pregnancies ends in abortion. Whatever one’s views about pro-life or right-to-choose issues, I am sure that most people would regret that. In 2011, there were almost 290,000 abortions; that is 572 abortions every day. As we all know, United Kingdom law allows abortion up to 24 weeks, or until full term if the baby is disabled with a “serious handicap” or the mother’s life is threatened. In 2011, only 0.02% of abortions carried out in England and Wales were because of a risk to the mother’s life. Meanwhile, abortions carried out on the grounds of foetal handicap constituted a mere 1.2% of the total number of abortions. Even so, abortions on those grounds are often undertaken even when the handicap in question is undoubtedly curable. Many will recall the noble work of the Church of England vicar, Joanna Jepson, who highlighted that abortions were being carried out on babies with cleft palates on the grounds of foetal handicap.

Since 1929, British law on abortion has, for better or worse, linked the legality of abortion with the viability of the child to survive outside the womb. The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 reduced the upper time limit on abortions set by the 1967 Act from 28 weeks to 24. The arguments employed in the parliamentary debates of the time recognised that and highlighted the issue of viability. Since the passing of the 1990 Act, significant improvements have undoubtedly been made to neonatal care, increasing the ability of prematurely born children to survive. Figures from 2005 show that 52 babies born earlier than 24 weeks have survived. In the specialist neonatal unit at London’s University College hospital, five of the seven infants born at 22 weeks between 1996 and 2000 survived, as did nearly half those born at 23 weeks.

Our French and continental neighbours have been mentioned today, and in France, abortion on demand is legal up to only 12 weeks. As we have heard from the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra), 91% of abortions take place before 12 weeks. I do not think that it is a massive attack on women’s right to choose if we therefore try and focus the debate on late abortions. We are talking about a relatively small number, but we are also discussing human life, and even one human life is important.

In France, abortions are only allowed after 12 weeks if two physicians certify that it is being done to prevent grave, permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman, or because there is a risk to the pregnant woman’s life, or if the child in question will suffer from a particularly severe illness recognised as incurable. That law was reinforced in 1994, when French law-makers required that multidisciplinary diagnostic centres decide which birth defects are severe enough to allow for abortion after the 12-week limit.

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of a study of late abortions in Britain? A number of those abortions seem to be as a result of difficulties that women have had getting abortions earlier. If we had abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, as France does but we do not, perhaps the result would be a greater number of earlier abortions in this country.

[Mr Leigh]

We can certainly debate that point. I should have thought that the law is that we have abortion on demand, but if the hon. Lady believes that some women feel they are under pressure not to have abortions before 12 weeks, we can discuss that matter. I thought, however, that we were focusing on late abortions today, which I should have thought we regret all around the Chamber.

A lot of European countries that are viewed as much more liberal than we are have time limits on abortions that are many weeks less than in Great Britain. The UK’s 24-week upper limit is double that of most European countries. Sixteen of 27 EU countries have a gestational limit of 12 weeks or lower; thus attempts to stir a reduction of the upper time limit as controversial have very little ground to stand on when we compare our laws with those of our European neighbours, as we often do in many other areas. A 2005 survey revealed that more than three quarters of women in the United Kingdom are in favour of reducing the time limit on abortions. A 2007 survey, commissioned by Marie Stopes International, found that 65% of GPs would welcome a reduction.

The number of abortions performed in Britain is now four times higher than in 1969, the first full year that abortion was available under the 1967 Act. G.K. Chesterton wrote:

“Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable”.

For those of us who are abortion opponents, like my hon. Friends, our views are known, and they can be dismissed. I hope, however, that even the most fervent supporters of legal abortion recognise that abortion is not desirable, even if they find it excusable. Anything that we can do to prevent late abortions is surely desirable for our country.

Regardless of the obvious moral debate, there is a compelling medical case for wanting to reduce the number of abortions. The Royal College of Psychiatrists has recognised that abortion can damage a woman’s mental health. Studies have discovered that women who have had abortions are almost twice as likely to suffer from mental health problems, three times as likely to have major depression, and six times as likely to commit suicide as mothers who do not have an abortion—

[Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)]

Order.

Cancer Treatments

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Tuesday 19th June 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair)]

Order. I know that the hon. Lady will wish to leave time for the Minister to reply. The debate must finish at 12.30 pm.

[Liz Kendall]

I am about to sit down, Mr Leigh. The Minister will know that the Opposition have put forward proposals for social care to be free at the end of life, to avoid the awful situation in which families have to fill out means-test forms and might struggle to get the care package that they need at that crucial time—the end of their loved one’s life. There is evidence that such a proposal would be cost-neutral, as it would reduce the number of more expensive bed days spent in hospital. Survival rates are absolutely critical, but we must not forget other issues, such as the quality of the patient experience and end-of-life care.

NHS Risk Register

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I do not know about the debate being bad-tempered, Mr Deputy Speaker, but we at least have jokers in the House.

The shadow Secretary of State is out on his own. I will be kind to him and say that at least opposition is coming naturally to him. Whatever we propose, he opposes it, even to the extent of directly contradicting what he and his colleagues said in government. His contribution today was another shameless example. We have seen this before. The last Opposition day debate on this subject was a travesty of his previous views about the role of the private sector, the need for the private finance initiative and the role of competition in the NHS that he espoused in government. He has done a U-turn on those matters and now holds the polar opposite views from those that he held before. That may be a luxury of opposition and he may enjoy it for the moment—actually, I am not sure that he did enjoy it that much—but that kind of inconsistency will keep him in opposition for a very long time.

The shadow Secretary of State spoke for about 50 minutes and I heard not a word of appreciation for the staff of the NHS. We are asking the staff of the NHS to live in financially challenging times, but it is not mission impossible. He said that saving money in the NHS was mission impossible. That is certainly how the Labour party treated it in government. Spending money was about the only thing that it seemed to be capable of doing, but it never spent it well. We are asking the staff of the NHS to save and to reinvest, and to improve performance at the same time.

Did I hear one scintilla of appreciation from the shadow Secretary of State for what NHS staff are doing, or for the fact that we have the lowest number of hospital-acquired infections on record and the lowest ever numbers of patients waiting more than six months and more than one year for treatment? I did not. I put it on record again that whether we compare May 2010 with December 2011, during which time the number of patients waiting more than a year for treatment more than halved, or December 2010 with December 2011, in which time it went down from more than 14,000 to nearly 9,000, the number has gone down. For the shadow Secretary of State to stand at the Dispatch Box and say that it has doubled, which is transparently wrong, is a misrepresentation to the House and a travesty to the staff of the service. He ought to come to the Dispatch Box and withdraw it.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Of course the views of staff are desperately important, but this is our NHS, and what is really important is the outcome for patients. It is because of the catastrophic decline in productivity that I say to my right hon. Friend that we urge him to keep going, with no more watering down of the Bill. His parliamentary party is 120% behind him.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and when he was Chair of the Public Accounts Committee he constantly told the last Government that they should do something to ensure rising productivity in the NHS. He was not alone in that.

Care of the Dying

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

There is no doubt in my mind that, if we allow assisted dying, it will eventually become encouraged exit. G. K. Chesterton wrote that, when orthodoxy becomes voluntary, it will be prohibited, and we could be on a dangerous, slippery slope. One of the witnesses to the Falconer inquiry said:

“I think we can only go for terminal illness at the moment, so this doesn’t actually apply to the people who are probably about to go into care homes. But, you know, baby steps.”

That is a chilling statement.

There is a lot I could say about this issue, but time is short. We all know that it is virtually impossible to predict how long someone has to live—we know that even from the famous case of the Lockerbie bomber. We also know how people suffer from depression in their last months of life. We know what has gone on in Oregon and in the Netherlands, where 8% of all deaths are the result of euthanasia. We also know about the experience in the Northern Territory, in Australia.

However, I just want to make one simple point, and I apologise, because I suppose it is a moral point. I visited St Andrew’s hospice with my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers). To us, this is a moral issue; we believe that the body is simply the mirror of the soul, and however old, crippled or useless someone might seem to society—our society seems to be dominated by the worship of youth and beauty—they are of immense value to society and should be sustained by society to the very end of their lives.

Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Bill

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nadine Dorries]

No, I will carry on for a bit longer.

I want to talk about the difference between consultation and counselling. I doubt very much whether the constituents of the hon. Member for Streatham had counselling; I think they probably had consultation. There is a big difference. Every woman who turns up at an abortion clinic has a consultation, but that is about the medical process—the side effects and what is going to happen. Every e-mail that we receive from women on this subject involves a consultation. This is how the law stands today; my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) might want to listen to this, as most of the way through she has been nodding in agreement with the adverse comments.

When a woman turns up at an abortion clinic, the clinic does not offer counselling. It does offer consultation, but the woman has to ask for counselling; it is not offered. She has to ask—or the doctor in the clinic has to see that a woman is in a particular position, or be alarmed enough by her state to offer counselling. I want to make the point very clear: counselling is not offered, but has to be asked for. [Interruption.] Someone says from a sedentary position that it is, but if it is, the centre is operating outside the guidelines, because counselling is not offered.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

I am sure that many abortion providers do their level best to give advice, but that is not the point being made. Surely in any field of endeavour it is not appropriate for the provider of a service to give the so-called independent advice. That is the key point—and, frankly, the only point.

[Nadine Dorries]

As I have said to many people, I will come on to the financial situation and the reasons for it.

To recap, the amendment proposes that abortion clinics make an offer of counselling, which they do not make because under the guidelines they have no provision to make it—the woman has to ask for it.

Last week, The British Journal of Psychiatry reported that women who abort are twice as likely to suffer from mental health problems.