Ukraine and Georgia

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I begin with the important repetition of our ongoing support for the Government regarding Ukraine and our shared deep concern with respect to events in Georgia, which represent an attack on the freedoms of civil society and an intimidation of protesters. Can the noble Earl assure us that we will continue to pressure the Georgian Government and make representations to their ambassador here? On Ukraine, the crucial question is how we are going to accelerate the provision of air defences, artillery shells and other equipment to the front line in the face of the Russian assault. Ukraine must be able to defend itself, including in Kharkiv, as we have all said. Its fight is our fight, but it needs more support quickly.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his support in all that we are doing in Ukraine. The Government and, indeed, the whole House continue strongly to condemn the appalling, illegal and unprovoked attack that President Putin has launched on the people of Ukraine. We continue to monitor developments on the ground very closely, but our steadfast support for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity is unwavering. That is why the Prime Minister has announced £500 million in additional funding, which takes us to £3 billion of military aid this year. This level of funding will last until the end of the decade and for as long as it is required. While Georgia and Ukraine are separate geopolitical issues, the Georgian people know all too well the proven aggression of Putin—in fact, they have only to look back to 2008. That is why we must support Ukraine for as long as it takes.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, this is a critical year for the Georgian population. In December last year, the EU announced accession candidate status for its admission to the European Union, and elections are due this October. This is an important time for the young people of Georgia, who have shown their resilience against this measure to restrict civil society freedoms. How will the United Kingdom ramp up support for young people in Georgia, who are very clear that they do not wish for there to be an autocracy? They want open civil democracy.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. The UK is a firm friend of the Georgian people and we have a long-standing defence partnership. We support their pursuit of the legitimate desire for a sovereign, free and democratic future, and particularly their lean towards a Euro-Atlantic trajectory. There is a very high level of diplomatic pressure both here and in Tbilisi to make certain that our commitment is got over and the clarity of our intent is made absolutely clear.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm that the repulsion of the recent Russian advances in Ukraine has been affected by problems of ammunition supply, not of sophisticated weapons? Can he reassure the House of our efforts, and those of other NATO countries, to provide the required ammunition? Not providing it creates huge problems for the Ukrainians’ gallant efforts.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. The recent attacks by the Russians are driven by numbers of people as much as by ammunition. NATO, its allies and other interested parties are co-ordinating a massive effort to get as much ammunition and required military support into Ukraine as possible, at the request of the Ukrainian armed forces, to ensure that they can hold and repel any additional Russian pressure. I will quote the Answer to the Urgent Question:

“Russia’s newly formed northern grouping of forces has attacked Ukraine’s Kharkiv region, taking control of several villages”.


The border town of Vovchansk is almost certainly an immediate Russian objective and is currently contested between Russian and Ukrainian forces. It goes on:

“By opening up an additional axis of attack, Russia is almost certainly attempting to divert Ukrainian resources away from other parts of the frontline and to threaten Kharkiv, the second largest city in Ukraine”.


It would take very substantial forces to overwhelm, and we do not believe they have them.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, the Russians clearly now have their eye on Kharkiv. The priority—that is, munitions—must be unwavering, despite the enormous amount we have already done and announced. There must be more air power, as the noble Lord opposite has already observed. Can the Minister look beyond the deep troubles of the past that have brought us to where we are to the causes in the future which will perpetuate this situation for decades unless we are very careful? Are there other means to which we are giving thought, and developing back-channels on the future of Russia? We cannot cancel Russia—no one sensible would suggest that—but can we begin to establish that we do not want instability for years ahead? There must be a deal or agreement on how far NATO goes, the borders of the expanded NATO of today and the desires of Russia to have a different system in future. These are the areas where thinking is required. If we do not think now, we and our children will still be in this mess, or an even worse one, in 20, 30 or 50 years’ time.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The most immediate and pressing issue for NATO and the rest of the West is to repel Russia from Ukraine. The noble Lord is absolutely right that there is a future post success, but, as the Secretary-General of NATO said the other day, it is very important that we take this stand now and assure all malign influences that NATO will stand firm against any aggression towards its pact. That is the primary purpose.

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, given Georgia’s recent history and its rather precarious geographical position, the importance of the upcoming elections in October cannot be overstated. To push a bit further the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, can the Minister explain what active steps the Government are taking to ensure that those elections are free and fair?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate makes a very good point. The whole issue of the “foreign agents” law is that it is very similar to a law that is operating in Russia, although it has not yet gone through the entire democratic parliamentary process. We all saw the riots inside and outside the Parliament of Georgia earlier this week. They are a strong signal that the concept that the foreign funding of external NGOs and agencies beyond the level of 20% creates an external threat needs to be vigorously resisted. We believe in free and democratic relationships and will do all we can with our friends in Georgia to ensure that that is maintained.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

On Georgia, does the Minister recognise that the effectiveness of external action will be crucially determined by its unity—that is, that the US, the UK and the EU are all taking the same line? Does he recognise that a number of member states of the European Union may say categorically that, if this Bill comes into force, it will not be compatible with Georgia’s membership of the European Union? That does not require unanimity in the European Union. It requires only one member state to say so, and that will stop it.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I entirely agree with the first part of the noble Lord’s question. As for the second part, the Euro-Atlantic organisations have certain standards and rules. We want Georgia to match those rather than to deviate from them, so that its continuing Euro-Atlantic trajectory can be maintained. We will use every effort to ensure that that is the case.