Armed Forces (Court Martial) (Amendment) Rules 2024

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[The Earl of Minto]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Armed Forces (Court Martial) (Amendment) Rules 2024.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, the statutory instrument before us today amends the 2009 court martial rules by introducing a new procedure for the court to view sentences under new Sections 304D and 304E of the Armed Forces Act 2006.

With the leave of the Committee, I will set out the provisions to which the statutory instrument relates. Section 304D enables a person who has been sentenced by the court martial to have their sentenced reviewed to take account of assistance that they have given, or offered to give, to an investigator or prosecutor under an agreement of the Director of Service Prosecutions. A case may be referred for such a review only if the Director of Service Prosecutions believes such a referral to be in the interests of justice. The review in court may reduce the sentence in return for the assistance given or offered.

A person who received a sentence that was fixed by law—for example, a life sentence for murder—may have that sentence reviewed only if they pleaded guilty to the offence for which they received that sentence. A review may further discount a sentence that has already been discounted or reduced if the person sentenced gives or offers to give further assistance. Conversely, Section 304E provides for the sentence of a person to be reviewed if that person received a discounted sentence in return for assistance offered to an investigator or prosecutor and then failed to give that assistance.

If the review in court is satisfied that the person knowingly failed to give the assistance, the provision allows the court to increase the sentence to take account of that failure. However, it can be increased only up to a term not exceeding the level that the court indicated would have been the sentence had there been no agreement to provide assistance. Again, a case may be referred for such a review only if the Director of Service Prosecutions believes such a referral to be in the interests of justice. These provisions closely follow those contained within the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, which applied to the civilian criminal justice system.

I draw the Committee’s attention to the right of appeal contained in both 304D and 304E, providing for appeals for any decision coming out of a sentence review. This appeal mechanism is available for a person whose sentence has been reviewed as well as the Director of Service Prosecutions who may also appeal against a decision on review. The Armed Forces (Appeal Against Review of Sentence) Regulations 2024, which were laid before Parliament on 13 May and is subject to the negative procedure, regulates Section 304D and 304E appeals.

The statutory instrument is somewhat technical in nature. It inserts a new Part 14A into the 2009 court martial rules to set out the basic court rules governing review of sentence proceedings. It also notes various technical amendments to the general provisions of the court martial rules so that they apply to review of sentence proceedings. For example, Rule 6 of these rules amends Rule 23 of the 2009 rules, so that if the court martial dealing with a review of sentence proceedings decides to substitute the original sentence with a new one, that substituted sentence must form part of the record of proceedings.

As your Lordships will see, the changes are technical, but they are needed to ensure that Sections 304D and 304E work as intended. I beg to move.

[Baroness Buscombe (Con)]

My Lords, I respond to the regulations by saying that I very much support the proposals. I do so having compared the process for court martial with that for discharge from the Royal Navy on medical grounds. The latter is the most inhumane and unfair process that I have ever come across. I ask the Committee’s leave to bear with me for a few moments so that I can put on record why I am unashamedly using this opportunity to speak on court martial to alert the Minister to the truth about the process applied to serving personnel who may not be operating at full capacity in the Navy due to an illness, an illness that was most likely contracted or occurred while in service.

The key point is that a court martial allows serving personnel to be represented and the opportunity to make his or her case to rebut the charges in person. In contrast, the Royal Navy’s employability board acts behind closed doors, even when someone has asked, with detailed reasons and letters of support from others within the Navy and the medics, for his or her case to be reviewed. Instead of an interview with serving personnel in person, in the first instance, the board sends out what it calls a signal, which means an alert for a line manager to call an individual and say, “You’re discharged”. The line manager then informs that individual that they are discharged and because the line manager most probably does not know what the process is because he or she has not been told, he or she unknowingly gives the individual incorrect advice about an appeal process and timing.

No reasons or explanation for the discharge are given at that point, so an individual who wishes to appeal that decision is up against a time limit and cannot know what they are appealing against. Eventually—too late—a letter couched in the most appalling, unpleasant language arrives in the Navy post. It basically writes someone off, even if that individual has skills, experience and capabilities of which we know the Navy is in dire need. The result is that years of training, service, commitment and adaptability are wasted, and an individual who has served his or her country is devastated, on the floor. No one has even bothered to sign that letter.

If the individual asks for their case to be reviewed and submits detailed reasons, again, there is no interview by the employability board and no consideration of a possible transfer to other branches to utilise experience and capabilities, attributes that may be supported by others in the Navy who work with and know the applicant. No reference is made where an individual who has moved heaven and earth to return to 100% fitness, most probably at their own expense, confirms a marked improvement or an expectation of full recovery in the short term. No reasons are given in the event that the review is unsuccessful. Another signal just goes out to the line manager stating “no change”.

Will the Minister therefore take time to meet me so that I can share in more detail this unacceptable and frankly shocking truth? I believe it sends a terrible message, not least to all those who have signed up to the Armed Forces covenant. In a court of law, that message would not stand up to the most basic principles of transparency and fairness, coupled with the accountability of the board.

I close by confirming that no armed forces personnel, serving or veteran, are aware of my decision to make this statement today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the Committee of my entry in the register of interests, specifically my roles with the Royal Navy. I thank the Minister for his comprehensive introduction to this piece of secondary legislation. Subject to what we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, this is straightforward and I do not plan to delay the Committee for long. As my friend in the other place, Luke Pollard, made clear, His Majesty’s Opposition do not object to this legislation, but we do have some questions pertaining to the detail and government policy.

The outlined rules are not controversial and Labour Party policy is clear that we would like to see more, not less, criminal activity explored through the civilian courts—not least murder, manslaughter and rape. Given that these amendments bring the service justice system further in line with the criminal justice system, is it not time that MMR committed in the UK by service personnel should be included in the civilian justice system? This is all the more important given recent scandals.

Can the Minister expand on the decision to limit the jurisdiction of these amendments? Why do they not apply to Gibraltar? There is a growing body of Armed Forces legislation that applies to UK personnel everywhere except Gibraltar. Why should offences committed in Gibraltar be treated in a different and out-of-date fashion, not in line with what we now consider to be best practice?

The Minister in the other place, Dr Murrison, was asked to expand on the rationale of the eligibility criteria. He opted not to do so. Can the Minister assure the Committee that consideration will be given to previous service when considering the eligibility criteria? Will relationships built during years of service but not at the time of the alleged offence be considered? This is not in the Explanatory Memorandum. What about the role of sustained joint operations? Will people who serve in a sister unit still be eligible to sit on a relevant court martial?

Broadly, this is a welcome update. I look forward to hearing from the Minister on those points of clarification. Before I finish, I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, for raising the challenges surrounding medical discharge. I am sure the Minister heard her testimony and will seek further details on the circumstances that she raised.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this debate, in particular my noble friend Lady Buscombe for her unsettling but powerful speech. I am more than happy to meet her and discuss in full detail the points she raised. Given the conversations we have had in the Chamber about forces numbers, recruitment and retention, it is extremely disturbing to hear that this is dealt with, as she said, in an inconsiderate and inhumane way. It is not acceptable and we will take that up.

I will probably catch most of the questions. I do not think I am particularly suited to the issues in law that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, raised, so, if I may, I will write in full detail to him about them.

The question of why it has taken so long has been addressed, but I fully agree that eight years is a very long time to get to this point. There has been activity for some while but there has been a certain amount of toing and froing and the process could have been speeded up. As I said, we are not intending to alter the process; we are just following up the existing one. That is one of the key points.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, asked how this will work in practice. It is important to note that a review itself is not an appeal against a sentence but an entirely separate process that takes place because new circumstances have arisen. The review process will not be inhibited by the fact that the Court Martial Appeal Court may already have heard or decided against the original sentence or whether the sentence was varied on appeal. Again, it is a separate process. I fully understood the noble Lord’s point about the sensitivity of some of these issues concerning whether these reviews should take place in person rather than virtually, on Zoom. We will certainly consider that.

Although the equivalent measures in the criminal justice system are rarely used, they are still an important feature of the justice system, as noble Lords will agree. There will be cases where the evidence from a witness or offender/defendant could be crucial but fears about self-incrimination might stop an individual coming forward and providing essential information. As with any case, prosecutors need to consider competing public interest issues, which, in these types of cases, include issues relating to the victim of the original offence.

The commencement of these provisions from 2016 is well overdue and, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said, this brings a sensible improvement to the service justice framework. I am sure the Committee will appreciate that it is not appropriate for me to speculate on how and when these provisions may be used in the future.

The Armed Forces Act does not extend to Gibraltar, so the statutory instruments made under the Act do not extend there either. The extent is simply the jurisdiction in which Armed Forces legislation forms part of the local law. Gibraltar is referenced as an exception, as Armed Forces legislation extends to all other British Overseas Territories. I do not know—I will find out and write—but I imagine that it is a historical quirk from some point in the past.

Finally, the whole question of MMR is contained within this, and it is an extremely important and valid point. We are trying to align these amendments with what is currently in the civil criminal law.

I hope the Committee will agree that, although these measures are technical, they are necessary to improve the functioning of the military justice system, and I therefore commend this instrument to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Armed Forces: Land War Readiness

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what recent assessment they have made of land war readiness of regular and reserve troops across the armed forces.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, our Armed Forces are at all times ready to protect and defend the UK, and we continue to meet all operational commitments, both at home and overseas. The global security environment is undoubtedly challenging, and that is why this Government have committed to spend 2.5% of GDP on defence by 2030, including a £10 billion investment in the UK’s munitions infrastructure. We are also heavily investing in equipping and modernising both the Regular Army and the reserves. By 2026, the Army will have built the foundations for the force of 2030, with readiness and resilience fit for the next decade.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind your Lordships’ House of my registered interests. The House of Commons Defence Select Committee’s report earlier this year, exploring our readiness for war, was scathing. The committee found that while our operational readiness is proven, our war-fighting readiness is in doubt and our strategic readiness has no measurable outcomes. All services are currently deployed above their capacity with significant capability gaps and have failed in their recruitment targets in every year since 2010. The Government accepted the recommendations of the Haythornthwaite review and promised a detailed response this year. Given the current recruitment and retention rate crisis across all services and the impact on our ability to deploy, when can we expect a detailed plan from the MoD?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure I do not need to tell anybody in this House that defence is an active, changing situation, and we need to change to events and threats as we see them. As I said, we invest significantly in Armed Forces readiness and will continue to do so. The Royal Navy has 22 ships—now nearly 28 ships—on order. The RAF has greater lift capacity than at any time, and the British Army was deployed in 67 countries last year. While there is a lot to do, if we think about the international, multinational operations that we are engaged in—Prosperity Guardian, Shader, Kipion and Steadfast Defender, to name just a few—let alone delivering vital aid in Gaza, we should be rightly proud of all their efforts.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as director of the Army Reserve. Neither the first nor third division can deploy as a division without large elements of the reserve, and it is a misnomer that all the Regular Army is at higher readiness than the reserve Army. There are even elements of the Army Reserve which are at higher readiness than parts of the Regular Army. Indeed, for Op Tosca in Cyprus, three of the last rotations of our peacekeeping mission have been delivered by the Army Reserve. With this in mind, will my noble friend welcome the fact that this year, for the first year, the Army Reserve budget is protected, meaning that it is not subject to in-year savings measures and enabling it to ensure that it can meet its readiness?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for making an extremely important point, particularly about the financing of the reserves. We should never forget that reserves are essential on and off the battlefield. It is all very well relying on the first echelon, but without the second and third echelons in place and working like clockwork, there will be trouble down the line. The value in which reserves are held is extremely high and I am delighted that they are so ready.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said that the RAF is stronger than ever before. Is he aware that 80 years ago, on D-day, 1,000 C-47s carried our paratroopers to the coast of France? In a fortnight’s time, on the anniversary, there will be a commemoration service. Have the Government managed to find a second plane to drop the paras in France for that commemoration, or can we take it that there will be “up to” two planes?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very good point. We are all sitting here because of the success of D-day. The 80th anniversary commemoration is an extremely important moment. As I said in my response to the last question, the RAF is fully employed elsewhere, as are all the other forces. The Government and the Ministry of Defence are working hard to ensure that there are sufficient platforms for an appropriate remembrance to be carried out.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, one essential requirement for an effective land war fighting capability is to have enough people to man the existing posts within the force structure. Last year, the outflow from the Army far exceeded the intake. A very large proportion of potential Army recruits give up because the process takes far too long. There are also many medical rejections, some of which seem rather baffling. I know of one case where an athletic young lady was refused because she had broken her leg some years previously. Given the importance of manning the force structure, is it not time that the military, and the Army in particular, focused much more on how to get people in, rather than how to keep them out?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot but agree with the noble and gallant Lord. It is obviously extremely important to maintain the correct numbers and have the recruitment and retention process running as smoothly as possible. We are making improvements to recruitment, and I am delighted to say that things are speeding up. We are taking quite a broad look at some of the medical requirements now. I am not aware of the broken leg example, but it is indicative of some of the challenges that we have faced in the past.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, we have seen from the wars in Ukraine and Gaza that, if Britain did become involved in a land war, it would look very different from any war that we have ever fought in the past. The skills that our troops will need are changing all the time, as the Minister has alluded to, but we will have 9,000 fewer troops to work with by 2025—a policy that my party would reverse. Are the lower numbers compatible with the greater skills that we would need to fight a modern land war?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the question of absolute numbers must be overlaid with that of capability. There is no question that we do not need the numbers that we have required in the past. In fact, the First Sea Lord has mentioned that modern warships will have fewer fighting troops on them. I fully agree on the challenges that we face with the existing numbers. War fighting readiness obviously involves modernisation and mobilisation of conventional forces, as well as upgrading nuclear systems. It also involves intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition, reconnaissance capabilities, electronic warfare, signals, intelligence, cyber and electronics. It is a very broad base so, to the previous question from the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, the breadth of recruitment needs to be very carefully looked at.

[The Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham]

My Lords, there are 280 regular chaplains serving in the Armed Forces, including more than 150 from the Church of England, and they are working closely with the wider Church to build strong partnerships, which would be essential in the event of a major deployment. Their work is for the whole Armed Forces and the families who would be left behind, irrespective of faith. Does the Minister agree that chaplains continue to play a crucial role in the life of the Armed Forces both at home and when deployed in conflict zones?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I entirely agree with the right reverend Prelate.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

I apologise to the admiral; I am sure his time will come. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that the Government website details on our reserve situation are curiously uninformative? They do not make a clear distinction between the regular reserves and the Army reserves, which are two separate concepts and have been for the past 10 years. They do not make clear how many of our units are high-readiness or how many are combat ready. Will he encourage his colleagues to provide clearer information online about the state of the reserves, and give us more information on how we are developing a new relationship between our reserves and regular troops of a kind that is being rapidly developed by several of our NATO allies?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I will certainly take a look at the website and ensure that it is made a lot clearer on what the differences are. As regards valuing the reservists, I can assure the House that the Ministry of Defence values them extremely highly and will continue to make certain that the level of readiness is appropriate.

Ukraine and Georgia

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I begin with the important repetition of our ongoing support for the Government regarding Ukraine and our shared deep concern with respect to events in Georgia, which represent an attack on the freedoms of civil society and an intimidation of protesters. Can the noble Earl assure us that we will continue to pressure the Georgian Government and make representations to their ambassador here? On Ukraine, the crucial question is how we are going to accelerate the provision of air defences, artillery shells and other equipment to the front line in the face of the Russian assault. Ukraine must be able to defend itself, including in Kharkiv, as we have all said. Its fight is our fight, but it needs more support quickly.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his support in all that we are doing in Ukraine. The Government and, indeed, the whole House continue strongly to condemn the appalling, illegal and unprovoked attack that President Putin has launched on the people of Ukraine. We continue to monitor developments on the ground very closely, but our steadfast support for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity is unwavering. That is why the Prime Minister has announced £500 million in additional funding, which takes us to £3 billion of military aid this year. This level of funding will last until the end of the decade and for as long as it is required. While Georgia and Ukraine are separate geopolitical issues, the Georgian people know all too well the proven aggression of Putin—in fact, they have only to look back to 2008. That is why we must support Ukraine for as long as it takes.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, this is a critical year for the Georgian population. In December last year, the EU announced accession candidate status for its admission to the European Union, and elections are due this October. This is an important time for the young people of Georgia, who have shown their resilience against this measure to restrict civil society freedoms. How will the United Kingdom ramp up support for young people in Georgia, who are very clear that they do not wish for there to be an autocracy? They want open civil democracy.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. The UK is a firm friend of the Georgian people and we have a long-standing defence partnership. We support their pursuit of the legitimate desire for a sovereign, free and democratic future, and particularly their lean towards a Euro-Atlantic trajectory. There is a very high level of diplomatic pressure both here and in Tbilisi to make certain that our commitment is got over and the clarity of our intent is made absolutely clear.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm that the repulsion of the recent Russian advances in Ukraine has been affected by problems of ammunition supply, not of sophisticated weapons? Can he reassure the House of our efforts, and those of other NATO countries, to provide the required ammunition? Not providing it creates huge problems for the Ukrainians’ gallant efforts.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. The recent attacks by the Russians are driven by numbers of people as much as by ammunition. NATO, its allies and other interested parties are co-ordinating a massive effort to get as much ammunition and required military support into Ukraine as possible, at the request of the Ukrainian armed forces, to ensure that they can hold and repel any additional Russian pressure. I will quote the Answer to the Urgent Question:

“Russia’s newly formed northern grouping of forces has attacked Ukraine’s Kharkiv region, taking control of several villages”.


The border town of Vovchansk is almost certainly an immediate Russian objective and is currently contested between Russian and Ukrainian forces. It goes on:

“By opening up an additional axis of attack, Russia is almost certainly attempting to divert Ukrainian resources away from other parts of the frontline and to threaten Kharkiv, the second largest city in Ukraine”.


It would take very substantial forces to overwhelm, and we do not believe they have them.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, the Russians clearly now have their eye on Kharkiv. The priority—that is, munitions—must be unwavering, despite the enormous amount we have already done and announced. There must be more air power, as the noble Lord opposite has already observed. Can the Minister look beyond the deep troubles of the past that have brought us to where we are to the causes in the future which will perpetuate this situation for decades unless we are very careful? Are there other means to which we are giving thought, and developing back-channels on the future of Russia? We cannot cancel Russia—no one sensible would suggest that—but can we begin to establish that we do not want instability for years ahead? There must be a deal or agreement on how far NATO goes, the borders of the expanded NATO of today and the desires of Russia to have a different system in future. These are the areas where thinking is required. If we do not think now, we and our children will still be in this mess, or an even worse one, in 20, 30 or 50 years’ time.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The most immediate and pressing issue for NATO and the rest of the West is to repel Russia from Ukraine. The noble Lord is absolutely right that there is a future post success, but, as the Secretary-General of NATO said the other day, it is very important that we take this stand now and assure all malign influences that NATO will stand firm against any aggression towards its pact. That is the primary purpose.

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, given Georgia’s recent history and its rather precarious geographical position, the importance of the upcoming elections in October cannot be overstated. To push a bit further the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, can the Minister explain what active steps the Government are taking to ensure that those elections are free and fair?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate makes a very good point. The whole issue of the “foreign agents” law is that it is very similar to a law that is operating in Russia, although it has not yet gone through the entire democratic parliamentary process. We all saw the riots inside and outside the Parliament of Georgia earlier this week. They are a strong signal that the concept that the foreign funding of external NGOs and agencies beyond the level of 20% creates an external threat needs to be vigorously resisted. We believe in free and democratic relationships and will do all we can with our friends in Georgia to ensure that that is maintained.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

On Georgia, does the Minister recognise that the effectiveness of external action will be crucially determined by its unity—that is, that the US, the UK and the EU are all taking the same line? Does he recognise that a number of member states of the European Union may say categorically that, if this Bill comes into force, it will not be compatible with Georgia’s membership of the European Union? That does not require unanimity in the European Union. It requires only one member state to say so, and that will stop it.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I entirely agree with the first part of the noble Lord’s question. As for the second part, the Euro-Atlantic organisations have certain standards and rules. We want Georgia to match those rather than to deviate from them, so that its continuing Euro-Atlantic trajectory can be maintained. We will use every effort to ensure that that is the case.

Military Bases: Accommodation

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Wednesday 15th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe, and with his permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, since 2021, Defence has invested £1.5 billion across its accommodation portfolio, with thousands of homes being refurbished in the last financial year and more to be upgraded in this financial year. Currently, 96% of all service family accommodation meets or exceeds the Government’s decent homes standard and, although there is no national standard or comparator for military single-living accommodation, we hold ourselves to the defence minimum standard, which spans key issues such as safety, water, ventilation and heating among other factors, as outlined in our defence accommodation strategy.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

I remind your Lordships’ House of my registered interests. Last year, the Labour Party commissioned an independent review of military accommodation. The Kerslake review was published last month and its findings were damning: flooded homes, collapsing walls, pests, mould and dangerous gas and electrical fittings are increasingly the norm. Some of the accommodation is in such a dire state that the MoD has been forced to reduce or scrap the rent for 4,000 serving personnel. The commission recommended that, as a first step, the MoD should commission an independent survey to establish a clear, current picture of conditions, setting out what is required to bring service accommodation up to standard. When can we have one?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the Government fully recognise the vital importance of accommodation as a central part of the wider package we provide to those serving within His Majesty’s Armed Forces, and we remain committed to getting this right. We recognise and accept that there is still more to be done, alongside ongoing work to refurbish and upgrade what is an increasingly ageing and difficult property estate.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I have not yet had the opportunity to read the Kerslake commission’s report, but I have seen the headlines from Inside Housing, which reviewed the report and commented on rats, mould and other problems. The noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, raised many of these issues, but can the noble Earl tell the House which bits of the commission’s report the Government would refute and, if they cannot refute it, what they are going to do?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the point about the report is that we consider it very carefully. What has happened in the last year is that we have spent £222 million on sorting out some of these issues: £53 million on damp and mould remediation in 4,000 properties, £134 million preparing empty homes for occupation in 1,000 properties, £10 million replacing kitchens and bathrooms in 1,000 properties, and £7 million replacing boilers—very important—in 1,500 properties, while in 3,000 properties we spent nearly £20 million sorting out their doors and windows. I say again: this is a very ageing and difficult estate, which in many cases goes back to the 1940s and 1950s. At the same time, we are spending quite a lot of money on acquiring new properties going forward.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, one of the most persistent problems with service accommodation is the quality of, and the response times for, maintenance. Last year, the continuous attitude survey indicated that satisfaction levels with the maintenance of single-living accommodation were below 30%, and for service families’ accommodation it was below 20%. What is being done to analyse the basic causes of this dissatisfaction and to put it right?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble and gallant Lord raises a very good point. The DIO has a relationship with Pinnacle, which is effectively the customer service interface with the Armed Forces. It then passes that work on to Amey and VIVO to undertake it. The process has got much slicker; the response time has got much, much better. As I say, we are not where we need to be, but we are moving in the right direction.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, one of the recommendations of the Kerslake commission report, which is very exhaustive, was that the MoD should commission an external independent survey of the Defence Infrastructure Organisation. My recollection is that the DIO did not lack information; what it was endeavouring to do was cultivate a much more muscular relationship with contractors. How is that progressing?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. The DIO has all the information that it needs. This is about the implementation and requirement, through Pinnacle to the contractors, to ensure that they respond quite rightly to the issues raised by individual and family members of our Armed Forces.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the Minister gave a long list of the work being undertaken, but I did not hear him mention the question of asbestos in these buildings. Can he give an assurance, therefore, that all the asbestos has now been cleared from the military estate—and, if it has not, when will that be achieved?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the whole question of asbestos is an ongoing issue and one which will take some time to complete. I will write to the noble Lord with full details, but I would like to remind noble Lords that, as they will know, if you do not touch asbestos it is absolutely fine; it is when you start messing around with it that things become dangerous.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that a lot of the problems go back to the Tories’ privatisation of the Armed Forces’ houses, which they privatised without making sure the houses were maintained and repaired?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the benefit of hindsight is wonderful. At the time, in 1996, when the deal was done with Annington—originally with Terra Firma and then with Annington—it was considered a perfectly acceptable deal in the prevailing conditions. In retrospect, of course, property values have risen hugely. I am sure noble Lords will know that a number of cases are going through the courts about enfranchisement, about which of course I cannot comment.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, as someone who from time to time has occasion to stay in military accommodation at various camps, my observation is that standards have not kept pace with changing expectations—what was deemed acceptable in the 1970s and 1980s is no longer. This has a serious effect on the ability to recruit to the Armed Forces. Does my noble friend not agree that this is yet one more reason to increase defence spending without delay?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point. One justification for the increase in defence spending we announced recently was to continue to invest in accommodation and bring it up to current acceptable standards. One has only to think back 20 or 30 years to what was an acceptable standard then, to realise that now we are in a very different world.

[Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (CB)]

My Lords, could the Minister update the House on what basis housing is allocated? Is it continuing to be allocated according to rank or is it allocated according to need?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the way accommodation has been allocated is subject to a review. The Secretary of State has called in that review, as I am sure everybody is fully aware, and will report this summer with his findings.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister have any views on the appropriateness or the proper use of resources in providing proper sanitation for young women in our Armed Forces? I certainly do not need to explain their needs, but they are very different from those of their young male counter- parts. Can the Minister say anything about that? My experience is that they are totally inadequate.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a good point. Particularly in single-living accommodation, this is absolutely critical. In the budget, £5.3 billion has been allocated in the next 10 years to invest in the existing single-living accommodation and acquire new accommodation. I can assure the House that the issues around female single-living accommodation are being well catered for.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, my colleague Helen Morgan in the other place put down an amendment to the Renters (Reform) Bill that would require the Government to bring military accommodation up to the decent homes standard. Will the Government bring forward such an amendment to the Renters Reform Bill, which is being discussed today?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, that is outside my brief, obviously, but I would say that the accommodation standards continue to improve. Our forces are paying only something like 15% of their salary for accommodation. If one thinks about that in wider market context, it is not an ungenerous situation to be in.

Nuclear Test Veterans: Support

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Watson of Wyre Forest]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what support they provide to nuclear test veterans.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, we are grateful to all service and civilian personnel who participated in the British nuclear testing programme and contributed to keeping our nation secure. That is why, as recognition, in November 2022 the Prime Minister announced the Nuclear Test Medal. We are also funding projects to celebrate, support and memorialise nuclear test veterans.

In addition to the existing range of veterans’ support available, the Government have instigated further benefits through the Veterans’ Strategy Action Plan, which outlines over 60 commitments to be delivered by 2028, including access to housing and healthcare, maximising veteran employability and recognising historic advantage. Over two-thirds of these commitments have already been met.

[Lord Watson of Wyre Forest (Lab)]

I am grateful for that Answer, but the MoD was ruled to have acted unlawfully when it withheld Terry Gledhill’s medical records. That was part of 4,000 papers maintained as state secrets by the AWE at Aldermaston, which were then declassified and described by a Minister as being innocuous but which are now at risk of being locked away again after a security review by the warhead director at the MoD. I say to the Minister that there is a big, important reason why this matter has to be put right. We are about to invest £20 billion in the new warhead programme, and those of us who publicly defend the independent nuclear deterrent, on all sides of this House, will play their part in maintaining public trust and support for that project. Does the Minister agree that our job will be made much easier if all test veteran records are made public, apologies are made where appropriate, and compensation is delivered where necessary? We do not have a Bikini island this time; we have to defend public trust in the ethics of the new programme.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, no medical records have been withheld from veterans before, during or after participation. Records can be accessed via subject access request under the Data Protection Act. The Atomic Weapons Establishment does not hold individual medical records. They are either held by the MoD or transferred to the National Archives.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister know that some 1,500 of the test veterans who are still alive, of the 20,000 who were affected, have attended meetings here in Parliament and have claimed that, because some records were incomplete, those records have not been made available to test veterans? Will he look at that specific issue? Also, given that sites such as Maralinga in Australia, where some of the tests took place, are still regarded as uninhabitable, does he not agree that this demonstrates that people who were serving Crown and country were placed in harm’s way?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

Yes, my Lords, I agree with that. It has been widely recognised. A lot of the data that is held is extremely historic and, at times, what the issue really is can get blurred. As I have indicated in previous Written Answers on this subject, my right honourable friend the Minister for Defence People and Families visited the Atomic Weapons Establishment in March to personally review these 150 documents that are being referred to and which allegedly relate to test veterans. He is committed to update the other place in due course—actually, in pretty short order. I do not wish to pre-empt that Statement.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, the decision to award a Nuclear Test Medal is very welcome. The MoD endeavoured last year in advance of Remembrance Day to issue as many of these medals as possible. How many of these medals have now been issued?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I can. Just over 22,000 individuals come into scope. We have received 4,800 applications. Of those, 4,400 have been approved. An assessment is going on because of some of the complications I mentioned earlier. As of today, we have dispatched 4,345—2,569 to veterans and 1,776 to next of kin. Before Remembrance Day, which noble Lords may remember was one of the issues last year, we succeeded in dispatching 1,220. Priorities since then have been for the over-90s and those with a terminal disease.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, in responding to the Question, the noble Earl talked about the commitments to the veterans of the tests but said that the information, if it is kept at all, is now very old—which is true, but so are the veterans. Does His Majesty’s Government really believe that a medal, or the no-fault compensation scheme under the War Pensions Scheme, is sufficient for those who were subject to tests and to bloods being taken, potentially without agreement? Is His Majesty’s Government really doing enough for the veterans who are still alive and their families, many of whom, unlike with other issues associated with war, will have been affected by miscarriage or birth abnormalities?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the opportunities for nuclear test veterans are the same as for all veterans who are now in civilian life. All veterans can seek support from the Veterans Welfare Service, which is MoD-managed. The nuclear test veterans who believe that they have suffered ill health due to service can apply for no-fault compensation under the War Pensions Scheme. There is also the war disablement pension, which is available to all veterans who served prior to 2005, including all nuclear test veterans.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the time taken and the reluctance to give compensation in this case make it similar to the case of infected blood, and we see it again with the sub-postmasters. Has the Minister come around to the view that I am coming around to—that, irrespective of who is in government, there is a tendency in Whitehall to refuse compensation to people who deserve it? Is that not something we all ought to do something about?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the broad issue of compensation is very thorny. Obviously, compensation needs to be evidence-based and appropriate and it needs to follow the correct tracks. I do not believe that Governments, of whatever hue, try to slow down compensation. I think what they try to do is get it right.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, is this not an example of the malaise that we have in the handling of veterans? Veterans are unhappy and we are in a bad situation with both recruitment and retention. Over 76% of veterans are dissatisfied with the Armed Forces compensation scheme and 500 veteran households are declared homeless every three months. Establishing an independent Armed Forces commissioner as a voice to improve service life and fully incorporating the Armed Forces covenant into law would give veterans the legal support that they deserve. Would the Minister support these measures?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, all Governments take the issues of veterans extremely seriously. As I said earlier, the Veterans’ Strategy Action Plan is a further attempt to offer veterans additional support as they leave our Armed Forces, on employment, housing and all sorts of issues that are peculiar to veterans having served our country. It is only right and proper that we should continue to press those as hard as we possibly can.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, following the question from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is it not the case that compassion should be the central consideration in the Government’s work to provide compensation? I hesitate to suggest it, but a little more compassion would be no bad thing.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree.

UK Armed Forces in Middle East

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Wednesday 1st May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my entry in the register of interests, specifically my association with the Royal Navy.

Our service personnel are currently deployed in multiple theatres across the Middle East, reinforcing regional stability, protecting freedom of navigation in the Red Sea, fulfilling our ongoing commitments under Op Shader and of course assisting vital humanitarian efforts in Gaza. As ever, we are grateful for their service, their dedication and the sacrifices that they make daily to protect British national interests.

I ask the Minister to update your Lordships’ House on the new role of the RFA “Cardigan Bay” in helping to build the temporary pier on the Gaza Strip. How long is this deployment and what specific role will the UK play in the pier’s construction? As always, the Royal Fleet Auxiliary is on the front line supporting UK operations. My right honourable friend John Healey asked in the other place about the RFA, but the Minister there was seemingly unable to assist, so can the noble Earl confirm that the RFA is protected from his new Civil Service cuts? Can he provide an update on the current state of the industrial dispute with the RFA, given its important role?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, there were about six different questions there. First, I confirm that the UK Armed Forces operate under a number of international coalitions in the Middle East and have done so for some time. They include the Jordanian-led international effort for humanitarian aid into Gaza, the RAF drops, the support that we are giving in building the pier, the global coalition against Daesh, Operation Shader and Operation Prosperity Guardian. We do all that to protect life, uphold the rules-based international order and secure UK interests against malign forces in the region. “Cardigan Bay” is providing living support for the American soldiers and sailors who are building the bridge. It lies off Gaza now in international waters, and will be there for as long as it takes.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, can the noble Earl tell the House, first, whether the Government would give a parliamentary vote if there were to be boots on the ground? Secondly, what conversations have His Majesty’s Government had with the Israeli Government about looking for appropriate ways of getting aid into Gaza and ensuring that those delivering that aid are protected, be they UNRWA or other charitable organisations?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot remember the first question, but on the question of talking with the Israeli Government, we continue to press them on international aid to open up as many opportunities as we can to get a considerable amount of aid in. That includes via Ashdod, Erez and this new floating pontoon. It is extremely important to get as much aid in as we possibly can.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend update us on the situation regarding the malign influence of Iran, which has of course recently attacked Israel? It has certainly armed Hamas in the past, whatever its situation now, and is almost certainly controlling Hezbollah. Can he please update us on that?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the diplomatic situation with Iran is that we are using every possible effort to quieten down what could have become an extremely dangerous situation. So far, that diplomacy does seem to be working.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, would the Minister and the Opposition Front Bench recognise that neither of them referred, in their replies, to the role of the sovereign base areas in Cyprus? Does he not agree that the bases we have there have played an extremely positive role in recent times, and indeed in more previous times than that? Would he offer some thanks to those who are manning those bases?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I certainly will and would. We are part of international coalitions and there is a certain level of sensitivity around precisely which states are involved in what. But I can assure the House, in all respects, that the level of support from various areas could not be higher.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, away from the valuable operations of the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force in the region, it is easy to overlook the regular tempo of land exercises with our allies there, which not only build strategic capabilities over time but act as a deterrent to our foes in the region. Despite the large increase in pending announced last week, there remain in-year saving challenges. These exercises, being uncommitted spend, are the first things to be cut. I simply ask my noble friend to look carefully at ensuring that, away from operations, these exercises continue.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My noble friend makes an extremely good point. The prioritisation of all the activities that we are engaged in through the UK Armed Forces is extremely important. To be ready to war-fight and win is absolutely paramount; to train to achieve that is critical.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the “Cardigan Bay” is of course one of our crucial Royal Fleet Auxiliaries. I refer to my noble friend’s question about the work that is going on about conditions of service. There is a very real risk of an impact on our Royal Fleet Auxiliaries because of this debate—and fight—going on about pay, conditions of service and the like. Can the Minister possibly tell us where we have got to in these negotiations? Is this going to impact not only there but on our amphibious group out in the Pacific and so on? These ships are so important.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree about the importance of these ships—what better example than “Cardigan Bay”, which is providing an absolutely vital role in supporting our allies to build this bridge? I will write to the noble Lord with specific detail; I think that is the best thing to do.

[Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (CB)]

My Lords, I refer to my registered interests in the Royal Navy. I encourage the Minister to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of HMS “Diamond”, particularly its recent contribution to continued freedom of the high seas in the Red Sea.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I could not pay greater tribute to our forces out there, whether on “Diamond”, “Lancaster” or “Cardigan Bay”. They are all providing absolutely critical support to an extremely important initiative.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, we should applaud the role of the RAF, with the recent contribution it made in the interception of Iranian drones launched against Israel. I ask my noble friend the Minister: was that under Operation Shader? If so, is the role of Shader now being expanded?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. It was indeed under Operation Shader, which has been in place since 2014. In fact, I answered a question about this the other day. The RAF has flown nearly 9,000 missions under Operation Shader and released more than 4,000 precision weapons, which gives noble Lords an idea of the scale and importance of ensuring that Daesh in Iraq and Syria is ultimately destroyed. There is no intention to increase the scope of that operation, but back in April it was the appropriate asset to use for that particular sortie.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, I would like to take up the point in the question asked by the noble Baroness opposite and hopefully have further information. I had concerns about some of the news that came out at the weekend that, in the project taking place in Gaza, we could end up looking at deploying British troops to be involved in the delivery of lorries on to the land. I would have great concerns about British troops being put into that position. We would not want to look as though we are condoning any of the Hamas actions that took place on 7 October; humanitarian aid is another issue. Could my noble friend give us reassurance that British troops will not be deployed inappropriately in this matter?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I can give an absolute assurance that that report was pure speculation. That is exactly where the situation remains.

Defence Spending

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

I thank the noble Baroness; I am told that this is indeed page 20.

The percentage of GDP that is being looked at starts at 2.32% for 2024-25 and goes up, according to this, to 2.5%, in line with His Majesty’s Government’s commitment outlined yesterday, 24 April. But I note the words:

“Memo—UK GDP based on OBR’s latest forecasts”.


There is sometimes a little scepticism about OBR forecasts. While far be it from me to raise the sort of concerns and scepticism that a former Prime Minister might have raised about the OBR, can the Minister reassure the House that the forecasts for two, three, four and up to six years out are actually likely to be correct? It matters enormously to these commitments that the OBR predictions should be right, because the commitments being made now are vital.

The noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, asked why the announcement was this week. As something of a cynic, I wonder whether it was not simply part of the Prime Minister working his way up to a general election, because every day this week we seemed to have a new announcement, whether it was flights going to Rwanda or the commitments to defence. While on Rwanda we might disagree, on defending Britain we do not disagree at all that it is vital. In that sense, the Statement is welcome.

I have a few questions for the Minister. Clearly, the commitment is there to defence expenditure—it follows on from the commitment to improving defence procurement—but this is a relatively short timeframe of six years. In the context of global crises, which we see from authoritarian regimes—as His Majesty’s Government have suggested, Iran, Russia, North Korea and China all seem to work in consort in some arenas—do His Majesty’s Government think that this commitment, while in itself welcome, will deliver change sufficiently swiftly? How far are His Majesty’s Government looking not just to closer co-operation with our NATO allies as a collective—obviously, we are also committed to NATO—but to strengthening bilateral relations, for example with France, in addition to the commitments made in Germany two days ago?

Further, to what extent do His Majesty’s Government think that other regional patterns of co-operation, such as AUKUS, will help them to take the leading role in NATO, which has been stated is an ambition?

In the policy document, the Secretary of State reminds us that in his Lancaster House speech he noted that, clearly,

“the era of the peace dividend is over”.

That is obviously right. In terms of procurement and ensuring that we have the right industrial defence base, 2030 is actually very close. Does the Minister feel that this Statement goes far enough? Will he commit to coming regularly to the House to tell us how it can be delivered and, in particular, about the numbers of civil servants who might be still in post in the MoD? Are their numbers vulnerable alongside those of other civil servants to pay for this deal?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, this is indeed a very historic document, and I am extremely grateful for the support that we have received from all sides of the House, as well as outside it. Noble Lords will be well aware of my views on defence spending—they should be by now, anyway—so I am delighted to follow the commitments made by the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State in the other place that we will now reach the 2.5% of GDP that we have long talked about by 2030.

The headline figure throughout, where I appreciate noble Lords want to see more detail, and quite rightly so, is the £75 billion spent between now and then. Over the next six years, this additional funding to the budget will take us to the 2.5% of GDP, which at that point will work out at £87 billion in defence spending by 2030.

If your Lordships will allow me to get into the weeds for a moment, on page 20 of the pledge document—I promise the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that there is a page 20 in this document—they will see how we intend to reach this trajectory. It is a flat line from now—it does not tip up at the end. They will also see how the NATO qualifying defence spend matches up against the core defence budget, as footnote 2 explains. To be clear, this is the same metric used across the NATO alliance. The figures used are also based on the OBR March 2024 GDP forecasts, as is standard practice, and cash totals will be confirmed at the relevant spending reviews as time progresses.

In short, this increase to 2.5% will be funded in full through savings, reallocation of resources, more efficient outputs, ruthlessly pursuing waste and delay—of which we know there has been a lot—and projected economic growth, and driving productivity throughout the MoD without any increase in borrowing or debt.

We will better invest in our relationship with industry—a critical point—in including £10 billion over the next 10 years on a new munitions strategy. In addition, through the integrated procurement model we will radically reform and modernise our Armed Forces following the Haythornthwaite review, and we will capitalise on our existing research and innovation expertise through the new defence innovation agency—the DIA.

What is more, this is in addition to the further substantial package of support also announced this week, our largest yet to our allies in Ukraine—many thanks to noble Lords for the continuing support on that. There will be some £500 million of support, as well as these 60 boats, including raiding craft, 1,600 strike and air defence missiles and more Storm Shadows, a mixture of 400 protected, armoured and all-terrain vehicles, and nearly 4 million additional rounds of small-arms ammunition.

We can all agree that this is significant news and, most importantly, the 2.5% must be spent wisely. As the Prime Minister stated in Poland earlier this week, we did not choose this moment, but it falls to us to meet it. Finally, before answering the questions, I will say that in the heightened area of instability that we now face, our first duty in the Ministry of Defence is to the national security and defence of our nation at any cost.

I will address some of the specific issues. On the question of Ukraine, we have now raised the contribution this year to £3 billion and that level will continue. As to why this was not covered in the Budget, I say that there was an enormous amount of negotiation going on at the time, and this is in the relatively recent past. We were putting the plan together, but it just was not ready. If you look at the situation now, the economic plan is starting to work properly; inflation is down from over 11% to 3.2%. We have a security environment that is continuing to deteriorate, and that has given us an opportunity to set the 2.5% target.

The Chancellor made a statement that he wants to return the numbers in the Civil Service, across government, to where they were before the pandemic struck, and the Ministry of Defence will be a beneficiary of that. There is no suggestion of a cliff edge—the cuts will take place in a gradual process over three years. The turn and vacancy level is quite perceivable within that period, and although there is not a recruitment ban there is a 2-for-1 in place at the MoD.

On the size of the forces, capability is as important as much as anything else. We should not hark back to the size of the Army 200 years ago; things were quite different then, although they were not that different 50 years ago. We have learned an enormous amount with the issue in Ukraine, and that is why the DIA is being set up. That hopes to achieve a grouping together of all existing R&D bodies into a single responsible and empowered organisation, particularly with the enormous and remarkable strength this country has in DSTL, and to scale up R&D, drive cutting-edge defence technology in high-tech stuff such as DragonFire and hypersonic missiles, and low-cost, high-impact stuff such as single-direction attack drones. I will mention DragonFire as an example—the Secretary of State did as well. My honourable friend the Minister for Procurement has used the new integrated procurement model to work on DragonFire, and has brought the gestation period forward five years. When we were talking about the new procurement model, there was an issue about how effective that would be. and on this exercise it proved very effective.

On NATO, which has never been more important than it is now, the commitment to move to 2.5% has been widely welcomed and accepted. It was not long ago when the idea of most NATO countries moving to 2% was quite a difficult ask. As Jens Stoltenberg said, the UK is “leading by example” in moving to 2.5%. There is a hope and an expectation that that example will help to move other NATO countries in that direction, both bilaterally and as a defence alliance. That is certainly the intention and I understand that it has been very well received. In fact, I have just come from a meeting with some colleagues from the United States. They were extremely appreciative and absolutely understood where we were coming from, so that was very good indeed.

AUKUS and GCAP are absolutely fundamental to our international relationships. It depends how long I am here, but I certainly will commit to the House that I will come to keep everybody absolutely up to date, particularly about the size of the Civil Service within the MoD and all other matters relating to what is a very considerable ask on the British public.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I remind your Lordships’ House of my specific interest as a member of the executive committee of the Army Board. I welcome this announcement. It is a significant amount of money and I commend the Government. However, my noble friend will forgive me if I judge success not by financial input but by what capabilities this money will deliver and, crucially, when. Our Armed Forces have been hollowed out, principally by gifting to Ukraine, so can he reassure me that some of this money is not just for new capabilities but for replacing existing capabilities that have been gifted? Finally, if there is one enemy in all this it is the Treasury. In my humble experience, it is all very well having a commitment of money to defence, but unless we get prompt Treasury approvals on time all this capability will be delayed. Can my noble friend simply reassure me that appropriate conversations have been had with the Treasury?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that question. On the Treasury, the Chancellor has absolutely been involved throughout this entire conversation and is fully supportive, as is the Prime Minister, of exactly what we are trying to achieve. On gifting and the replenishment of munitions and stocks, everything that we have gifted, including in the announcement this week, is within its sell-by date but is no longer really necessary. Replacements are coming in of new, modern equipment. The Army is perfectly happy to gift this to the Ukrainian effort.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, I used to work for Peter Carrington and Denis Healey, two great Defence Secretaries. I have been trying to work out how they would have reacted to this Statement. They would certainly have welcomed the increase in defence spending. It is clearly necessary and they would have said so. I think they both would have said that it is not enough but that it is certainly to be welcomed.

Denis Healey certainly would have found it impossible to accept the construction of the £75 billion. Could the Minister confirm that £75 billion is reached only by making the rather ludicrous assumption that the baseline is flat in cash terms, with reductions in real terms in every year of the six-year period? That is the baseline on which one can build annual increments summing to £75 billion. Perhaps he could confirm that is the case. Denis Healey would never have tried such odd accounting.

Peter Carrington would have argued that it is unwise not to prepare the country for a certain amount of pain. The Government are trying to present necessary defence increases as painless. It might be better to admit that there will be a cost, either in taxation or in less money for domestic programmes. The defence of the realm is the first task of government.

It is also absurd, in the week in which President Biden and Speaker Johnson have come forward with a rather substantial programme of assistance to Ukraine, for our Defence Secretary to stand up and say that the NATO partners looked to each other for leadership and the UK Government stepped forward to provide the alliance with the decisive leadership demanded in this knife-edge moment and that, in the build-up to the NATO summit in Washington, he—Mr Shapps—would be doing all he could to get alliance members to follow our lead. This is absurd talk. We should speak softly and carry a big stick. The stick is slightly bigger—not big enough in my view—after this week’s announcement, but we must learn to avoid the bluster and bravado and speak more sensibly.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the financial detail is quite complicated and I think it is better if we write and explain how the figures are built up.

It is clearly an ask for the British public. The cake is finite, as I have said before, and defence needs more. It is not an inconsiderable amount of money that we are increasing the defence budget by, and there is a question of how much money you can spend over time. It is rather like building a house, in that you cannot spend it all at once; you have to build up. If you look at where the investment focus is within the next few years, you find that, first, it is on firing up the UK industrial base, including £10 billion for a new munitions strategy. That is extremely important. Secondly, it is on ensuring that our Armed Forces benefit from the very latest technology, through the DIA. Thirdly, it is on guaranteeing long-term support for Ukraine; if we do not do that, it is just going to become more and more expensive. As the Secretary-General said the other day, this is the cheapest time to defeat the Russians. Fourthly, it is on ensuring that expenditure is effective through radical procurement reform, which I have already covered.

[Lord Robertson of Port Ellen (Lab)]

My Lords, all of us will welcome any increase to defence expenditure at a time of maximum turmoil and trouble in the world. There is much in this Statement which is to be welcomed, not just the extra money but the aspects on resilience and the rest.

However, I turn the Minister’s attention back to what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said. These increases in defence expenditure matter only in terms of the capability that they will produce, and that depends very much on whether or not these figures are accurate and whether the contention that they are going to be fully funded is correct. Many of the economists and experts outside, having looked at the figures overnight, are questioning very deeply their veracity—not only the fact that the £75 billion championed here is based on an assumption about flat cash values of expenditure but the fact that there is a gap between the £4.5 billion a year the Government say they will spend and the £7 billion. How is it going to be produced? Mr Ben Zaranko of the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that what is proposed will not be fully funded. He said:

“It’s in the ballpark of full-throttle austerity”.


The Resolution Foundation says that the contention that it is fully funded is a “joke”. Since we are not laughing, and since these matters are of national and international importance, can the Minister now tell us precisely what is the veracity of the figures that have been produced?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I really appreciate the detail of that question. Of course, the importance of getting the figures right and where the money is coming from is critical to the success of the entire endeavour. The detail is such that I would rather write than try to answer the question now, but there is no doubt that the commitment to this level of expenditure has been made and will be delivered.

[Lord Taylor of Goss Moor (LD)]

My Lords, the commitments to Ukraine—both the short-term increased commitment and, perhaps even more importantly, the long-term commitment the Minister referred to—are immensely important today, because Russia must be defeated for the sake of all democracies globally. Right now, Ukrainians right across the country are experiencing ballistic missile attacks on energy and heating infrastructure, homes, hospitals and schools, which they do not have the systems to defend, and the increasing use of Russian air assets on the front line. This country is short of ballistic missiles and defence systems, so what will be done to improve that in the long run? More immediately, what can the UK do to join those pressing for the supply of Patriot and other systems capable of defeating these missiles? A number of European countries that are not able to supply them themselves have offered to fund the purchase of such systems. Is the UK supporting that work?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. Most of the conversations about the issues Ukraine is facing start with air defence missiles. It is not just Ukraine but other states that could be threatened by the Russian Federation. There is an enormous effort in the production of these missiles to try to provide what is necessary, not just in the short term, which is moving them around, but in the long term. It was extremely good news to see the United States pass through their commitment to Ukraine. Some of the missiles have already been delivered.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in 2021, the Government published the integrated review entitled Global Britain in a competitive age, which was refreshed in 2023. It was described as setting out the UK’s overarching national security and international strategy, which covers defence, security, resilience, diplomacy, development and trade, as well as elements of economic and science and technology policy. In making this spending announcement on defence, and operating within that systemic approach to security, did the Government give full consideration to the possible need to increase spending on diplomacy and issues such as the climate emergency? Has this all been considered systemically in the round when looking at the allocation of resources?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that exactly those conversations have taken place, and that is one of the reasons why it has perhaps taken slightly longer to get to this position than I and many others would have liked.

[Lord Ricketts (CB)]

My Lords, there is an intriguing sentence in the Statement: that we are now producing

“a new plan that for the first time brings together the civil and military planning for how we would respond to the most severe risks that our country faces”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/4/24; col. 939.]

I would have thought that the 1998 defence review by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, and the post-2010 strategic defence and security review tried to do that as well, but does that plan include co-operation with European partners? There are some impressive figures for defence industrial investment in the Statement, but it reads a little as if we are on our own in Europe in doing this. In fact, Germany is sharply increasing its defence spending and is providing more support to Ukraine than we are, and France is ramping up its defence industrial spending. In terms of resilience, is this not the moment to work more closely with our European partners and co-ordinate on the effect that will have on the scale and speed of developing the weapons and supplying them to Ukraine?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The answer is yes. The noble Lord is absolutely right: it is critically important that we work with our international allies, whether European or elsewhere, to ensure that what is developed is complementary, but that we are producing what is required rather than unnecessary stockpiles of weapons and munitions. That was also one of the points that our American colleagues brought out earlier this afternoon; they were very pleased indeed with the progress we have made so far.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, in introducing the Statement, the Defence Secretary said:

“we will remove 72,000 civil servants from the system, not because we do not think they are good people—fortunately, with low unemployment we know they will be gainfully employed elsewhere”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/4/24; col. 944.]

Can the Minister tell me whether there were any negotiations with the trade unions? Are we to believe that there are 72,000 civil servants doing nothing? If that is not the case, can the Minister tell us what services will be reduced, curtailed or ended altogether? I would like an assurance that there will be negotiations with the trade unions in the implementation of this policy. I do not oppose the policy, but I wonder about that bit of it.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the 72,000 figure comes from the Chancellor’s desire to move the size of the Civil Service back to the situation in 2019, before the Covid virus struck. The Civil Service was required to grow quite considerably to cope with that situation, which has now passed. It seems logical that we start to move, through a period of natural attrition—there is no suggestion of mass requirements—back to a position where the Civil Service is fit for service, lean and nimble.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, this is too little, too late, but it is still good news because we are actually spending some money on it. The support going to Ukraine is particularly good news. We must defeat and stop Putin in Ukraine, or else we will have to stop him in Europe, so it must be good news that we have done that.

I must say I have some concern about where this money will come from, but on the assumption we are getting it, I will go down into the weeds in one small area. The Royal Fleet Auxiliary is absolutely crucial to the Royal Navy. For example, one of its ships is doing the Gaza support; the littoral response group ships are both RFA ships; and “Proteus”, a new vessel looking at undersea cables, is an RFA ship. A lot of these ships are now stuck in harbour, and there is a real issue because the RFA has suffered real reductions in pay and conditions of service. I ask the Minister to go back to the MoD and ask, as one of the first little kick-starters of money, that this be looked at. Without the Royal Fleet Auxiliary being manned, the Royal Navy actually grinds to a halt. There are also other little things in the manpower arena across the Army and Air Force that will make a huge difference.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I could not agree more. As to the question of “too little, too late”, it is extremely welcome that we are where we are now. It is absolutely critical that NATO faces up to the Russian Federation and defeats Putin because, as the noble Lord rightly said, if we do not do it now, it will be Europe next, and that will cost an enormous amount more in both human and financial terms.

On the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, I entirely agree. Conversations are taking place. I was in the Black Sea in one of the littoral states last week, where they were talking about the two ships in Portsmouth that are now ready to make their way over and what a good move that is.

[Lord Mott (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement on which my noble friend is responding today. Many important questions have been raised today. Will my noble friend give us an update on, and perhaps not forget, the accommodation that our Armed Forces personnel live in, and make sure that their conditions are not forgotten and that the upgrades and improvements that are required are part of this plan?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, that is a very good point. Accommodation is critical in recruitment and retention. Within the plan, there is £4 billion expenditure over the next 10 years to upgrade and build new service accommodation. At the moment, 97% of what we have meets the Government’s decent homes standard, but we continue to work with suppliers to make sustained improvements on the existing portfolio of properties. It is a point extremely well made that we must make certain that not just accommodation but all service pay and conditions are at the highest level.

Artificial Intelligence in Weapon Systems Committee Report

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Friday 19th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to those present for their considered and, at times, heartfelt contributions to this debate. I am equally grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, for bringing this debate to the House and for his excellent opening remarks; and to the entire committee for its informative report on artificial intelligence in weapon systems, which was published at the end of last year and which the Government have considered and contributed to most seriously.

As many noble Lords will be aware, the Government published their formal response to the committee’s recommendations in February. They concurred with the committee’s advice, as a number of noble Lords pointed out, to proceed with caution in this domain. As we have heard today, all sides of this House appreciate that artificial intelligence will be transformative in many ways—a balance of risk and opportunity.

For defence, we can already start to see the influence of artificial intelligence in planning operations, in the analysis of vast quantities of data and imagery, in protecting our people, in the lethality of our weaponry and, crucially, in keeping both our Armed Forces and innocent civilians out of harm’s way.

Take the example of revolutionising the efficacy of CCTV, and surveillance more broadly, in removing the serious levels of risk in bomb or mine disposal, or in refining the pinpoint accuracy of a military strike specifically to avoid collateral damage, as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, identified. In this fast-evolving sector, as the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, also rightly pointed out, it is essential that our Armed Forces are able to embrace emerging advances, drive efficiencies and maintain a technological edge over our adversaries who, noble Lords can be sure, will be pursuing the opportunity with vigour.

The MoD has established the Defence AI Centre to spearhead this critical work, bringing together experts from its strategic command centre in Northwood, its Defence Equipment and Support body in Bristol, and its science and technology laboratories near Salisbury, alongside a broad range of industry and academia: a genuine government and private sector partnership of significant potential.

The MoD also has some 250 projects either already under way or imminently starting work, and has tripled investment in artificial intelligence-specific research over the last three years, reaching more than £54 million in the last financial year. It is £115 million directly over the last three years, to answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso.

AI is an enabling component, not a capability per se. It is contained within so many capabilities that, probably, the investment is nearer to about £400 million in activities outside raw research.

Evidently, the potential of artificial intelligence in defence will continue to raise myriad technical, ethical and legal questions and challenges. This Government will continue to work through these judiciously, with as much transparency and consultation as possible, within the obvious national security constraints. To guide its work and its use of artificial intelligence in any form, defence is governed by clear ethical and legal principles. In June 2022, defence published its defence AI strategy alongside our “Ambitious, safe, responsible” policy statement, which set out those principles. We were one of the first nations to publish our approach to AI transparently in this way.

To inform our development of appropriate policies and control frameworks, we are neither complacent nor blinkered. The MoD regularly engages with a wide range of experts and civil society representatives to understand different perspectives. Equally, it takes the views expressed in this House and the other place most seriously.

To categorically reassure noble Lords, the British Ministry of Defence will always have context-appropriate human involvement and, therefore, meaningful human control, responsibility and accountability. We know, however, that other nations have not made similar commitments and may seek to use these new technologies irresponsibly. In response to this, we are pushing and pursuing a two-pronged approach. First, the UK is working with its allies and international partners to develop and champion a set of norms and standards for responsible military AI, grounded in the core principles of international humanitarian law. Secondly, we are working to identify and attribute any dangerous use of military AI, therefore holding those irresponsible parties to account.

I realise that the question of how and whether to define autonomous weapons systems is extremely sensitive. The noble Lords, Lord Lisvane and Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, who is no longer in his place, have raised this matter. These systems are already governed by international humanitarian law so, unfortunately, defining them will not strengthen their lawful use. Indeed, it is foreseeable that, in international negotiations, those who wilfully disregard international law and norms could use a definition to constrain the capabilities and legitimate research of responsible nations. It is also for that reason that, after sincere and deep consideration, we do not support the committee’s call for a swift agreement of an effective international instrument on lethal autonomous weapons systems—that would be a gift to our adversaries. However, I must emphasise that this Government will work tirelessly with allies to provide global leadership on the responsible use of AI.

On the question of fully autonomous weapons, we have been clear that we do not possess fully autonomous weapons systems and have no intention of developing them. On the very serious issue of autonomous nuclear weapons, which is understandably a troubling thought, as identified by a number of noble Lords, specifically the noble Lords, Lord Lisvane and Lord Hamilton, we call on all other nuclear states to match our commitment to always maintaining human political control over nuclear capabilities.

We will continue to shape international discussions on norms and standards, remaining an active and influential participant in international dialogues to regulate autonomous weapons systems, particularly the UN group of governmental experts under the scope of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, which we believe is the most appropriate international forum to advance co-operation on these issues.

International compliance will continue to be paramount, as the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, brought attention to and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned. I will write in detail about the many questions that he asked about this specific point; I am afraid we just do not have the time now.

We believe the key safeguard over military AI is not a definition or document but, instead, ensuring human involvement throughout the life cycle. The noble Lords, Lord Lisvane and Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, rightly raised that issue. What that looks like in practice varies from system to system and on the environment in which they are deployed. That means every defence activity with an AI component must be subject to rigorous planning and control by suitably trained, qualified and experienced people to ensure that we meet our military objectives in full compliance with international humanitarian law, as well as all our other legal obligations.

This year we will publish governance, accountability and reporting mechanisms. We will build challenge into our processes and input from outside experts in the form of an independent ethics panel. The MoD accepts the committee’s recommendation to increase the transparency of that panel’s advice, and we have just published the minutes of all six previous advisory panel meetings on GOV.UK, alongside the panel’s membership and terms of reference. We are also re-examining the role and options for the ethics advisory panel to include the views of more external experts in sensitive cases.

The committee made a number of recommendations around expertise, training, recruitment and pay, and quite rightly so. The MoD offers some unique opportunities for people interested in national and international security, but we are far from taking this for granted. We have accepted recommendations for the Haythornthwaite review, which will be familiar to many in the House and the other place, to enable any new joiners the option of careers that zigzag between regulars and reserves and, importantly, between the public and private sectors.

This is a highly attractive and highly competitive market, as outlined by a number of noble Lords, in the widest context. We are taking a range of additional steps to make defence AI an attractive and aspirational choice. We are looking at recruitment, retention and reward allowances, developing new ways to identify and incubate existing AI talent within our ranks, and developing new partnerships with private sector companies of whatever company size—particularly SMEs, because they are particularly strong in this area—to encourage more exchanges of expertise.

I also point out that my honourable friend the Minister for Defence Procurement is alive to this issue and has been driving substantial reform through the integrated procurement model, injecting agility and challenge into a system that I think everybody accepts needs considerable work. We will also shortly appoint a capability lead for AI talent and skills to drive this work forward in partnership with the frontline commands and our enabling organisations.

The committee also made a number of eminently sensible recommendations around testing of AI systems and operators. The MoD already has effective processes and procedures in place to ensure that new or novel military capabilities are safe and secure and operate as intended. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, illustrated, trial and risk appetite is an important aspect of consideration. We will ensure these are reviewed and updated as necessary as we integrate AI technologies into our armoury.

The Government are committed to providing as much transparency as possible around defence AI investment to aid public and parliamentary scrutiny. However, AI is always going to be an enabling component of much broader systems and programs. It can therefore be very difficult to isolate and quantify the cost of the AI element separate to the wider system. However, we are exploring solutions in the medium term that may give a better picture of specific and overall AI spending and investment across defence.

In conclusion, the department welcomes the overarching conclusions of the committee and the very wise advice to “proceed with caution”. We are determined to use AI to preserve the strategic edge, but we are equally committed to do so responsibly and in conformity with our values and obligations. Defence has a proven track record of integrating new technologies across the UK Armed Forces, and we should meet this one head-on. While we recognise that the adoption of AI will raise many new challenges, we believe that being open to challenge ourselves, including from Parliament, is an important part of the way forward.

Middle East: Deployment of British Armed Forces

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Wednesday 17th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Stansgate]

To ask His Majesty’s Government how they intend to consult Parliament on the deployment of British armed forces in the Middle East.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister and Government Ministers have consistently provided updates to Parliament through Written and Oral Statements, and through Oral and Topical Questions. However, publishing operational activity to Parliament in advance could undermine the effectiveness of an operation and potentially risk the lives of Armed Forces personnel involved. While the deployment of the Armed Forces is a prerogative power and the Government are under no legal obligation to seek parliamentary approval, we will continue to update the House as fully as appropriate.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. He is quite right that the Government have kept the House updated and given the Opposition the opportunity to continue to express their full support. Just over a decade ago, the then Foreign Secretary, now the noble Lord, Lord Hague of Richmond, speaking in the context of the Middle East, said that

“wherever possible, Parliament should have the opportunity to debate, in advance, the commitment of UK forces to military action overseas, unless there is an emergency where such action would not be appropriate”.

I think the whole House would agree that last Saturday night was such an exception.

With the news today that Israel has apparently decided to retaliate for that attack, the House will know that the situation is very serious. Does the Minister not agree that this would be a good time to clarify the role of Parliament in relation to the use of military force overseas? Does he think, on behalf of the Government, that some form of consultation should be enshrined in law? If so, will he bring forward a draft resolution for discussion and debate in both Houses?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Viscount makes a very good point, and it is something that I will talk to my colleagues about. I do not believe that the situation has changed. We have said before that when these irregular, single-point actions—which are limited, proportionate, necessary and legal—are required, we will continue to take action to protect lives, particularly in self-defence, as we did over the weekend. If that situation should change, we will certainly review the situation; we will keep the House fully involved.

[Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)]

My Lords, we are very fortunate to have the Foreign Secretary in our House. Indeed, it is probably the best decision that the Prime Minister has taken. It is an excellent idea that we have the Foreign Secretary here, and I hope this may be the norm in future. I hope the Labour Benches are focusing on this.

In a more serious vein, the Middle East situation is extremely serious. British forces have been involved. Surely we should now be having a major, full-day debate in this House on the Middle East, as a matter of urgency and priority, and regular debates as long as the situation continues.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, that is something for the parliamentary scheduling people. A major debate at this point would be very useful but may take up far too much parliamentary time.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister take this opportunity to thank and congratulate the RAF pilots who prevented needless loss of life in Israel over the weekend? Will he take the opportunity to reaffirm our country’s long-standing relationship with the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan—a relationship that goes back more than 100 years —which was brave and correct in defending its own territorial integrity over the weekend? That is exactly the kind of relationship that should in general be assumed, without needing to come back to Parliament for preauthorisation every time we stand by our old allies.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend. I also place on the record my admiration, and that of the Government, for all our Armed Forces in what must be an extremely difficult situation. Operation Shader, which has been in place since 2014, has been a remarkable success, and very active. I did not realise that since it was put in place, the RAF has flown 8,700 sorties and released 4,300 precision weapons.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister may recall me saying in the context of a previous Question put to the Leader that the Armed Forces place enormous importance on the support of the British public for the difficult and dangerous things that they do, not least as expressed by the will of Parliament. At the same time, they have to rely, crucially, upon the principles of security and surprise, on which their effectiveness and safety depend. Is it not difficult to see how a piece of legislation brought before Parliament could balance those difficult, competing issues?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble and gallant Lord makes a very good point, and it is certainly something that I will talk about. I could not agree with him more that operational security and force protection are at the very heart of what we are trying to do here, and must never be compromised.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my registered interests, and specifically my association with the Royal Navy.

Our dedicated and professional service personnel are now deployed on several fronts in the Middle East, stabilising the region in the face of co-ordinated efforts by Iran and her proxies. Iran’s senseless aerial attack on Israel at the weekend undermined international airspace. Iran’s proxies in Yemen continue to undermine freedom of navigation in the Red Sea, and last week Iran seized the “MSC Aries” in the Strait of Hormuz, again threatening global maritime efforts. What additional capabilities are we planning to deploy to counter these threats?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness and most of the House are aware, we do not discuss these things in advance, for fairly obvious reasons. However, an enormous amount of diplomatic effort is being put into trying to calm matters and get a more stable situation out there. As I am sure people are aware, my noble friend the Foreign Secretary is out in Israel today, trying to ensure that any further escalation of what is potentially an extremely dangerous situation across the entire region is canned.

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

My Lords, perhaps it is time that we learned from experience. In recent years British and western forces have been involved in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, and none of them has turned out well. I pay tribute to the forces concerned—it was a question of the strategy and the political view that was taken—but we really need to be careful about this and not cause any more chaos in any more countries.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, there are some fundamental rights and justifications that we as a responsible military power need to be prepared to step up and protect. I believe that these decisions are not taken lightly; they are taken extremely seriously. An enormous amount of thought and activity goes into each decision to take action, and that level of thinking should continue.

[Lord Woodley (Lab)]

Will the Minister confirm that it was three British-supplied drones that killed three British aid workers last week in Gaza?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, we do not comment on comments like that.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, thanks to our armed services are all very well, but they are now being very much stretched. It would be good to hear something from the Government about increasing the defence budget rather than the taxes that can be lowered.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that most of the House is fully aware of where I sit on this. We have a finite amount of resource within this country, and it is a question of where that gets allocated. We are spending more this year on defence than we have ever spent before; it looks as if it is going to be about 2.3% or £55.6 billion. It would be fantastic to be able to buy more ships and planes and employ a whole lot more people, but the capability and ability of our Armed Forces protect this country extremely well.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the last time that tensions rose in the Middle East, which sadly ended up with fighting going on, we had deployed in the north Arabian Sea an aircraft carrier, two nuclear submarines and eight destroyers and frigates. Does the Minister believe that what we have deployed there now, even with allied forces as well, is capable of protecting the two major maritime choke points that are so important to the world’s and our economy, or does he believe that we should have more there? Of course, that relates directly to cost and expenditure.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord is right. We are part of a substantial international force within both the Gulf and the Red Sea. Together, there is a significant amount of power there, hopefully to deter any further aggression by malign influences.

LGBT Veterans: Financial Redress

Earl of Minto Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cashman]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when they expect to have implemented Lord Etherton’s recommendations on financial redress in the LGBT veterans independent review.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, defence has accepted the recommendation of a financial award, as proposed by the notable review from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and is working with experts across government to establish an appropriate scheme, acknowledging that the process is intricate. Defence is committed to maintaining the momentum of the review and honouring all commitments made in the Government’s response, published in December 2023. Work continues to deliver the financial scheme by the end of 2024, and I commit to updating the House on the design of the scheme before the Summer Recess.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. This country’s treatment of LGBT armed services personnel has indeed been shameful, and the longer it takes to implement the financial elements of the report from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, the worse it gets. The Government have had the report for a long time. They accepted it in July, but we still have no financial redress for these veterans, whose careers were ruined, whose employment prospects were damaged and whose service pensions and benefits were denied. Many are now in their senior years and living in hardship. Therefore, I ask the Government at the very least to commit to an operational date for the financial redress scheme and, if they cannot do that, to update the House, as the Minister has said, at least within three months of this Question.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I certainly commit to updating the House on that latter point. I think all sides are vigorously agreed on this important issue: the treatment of LGBT serving personnel between 1967 and 2000 was wholly, wholly unacceptable. There is just no question about that. But the situation today is very different, and we are trying to address the wrongs of the past as rapidly and practically as we can. We are working across government to deliver all 49 recommendations as effectively, practically and expeditiously as possible.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, do the Government realise that there is grave anxiety among brave and unjustly treated LGBT veterans, because Ministers do not seem to have accepted in full the central recommendation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, that claims for financial compensation should be met unless the Government can

“disprove the evidence of the veteran making a claim”?

Since so many of the relevant records have been destroyed by the MoD, would it not be quite wrong to place the burden of proof on veterans? Is it not indefensible that severe financial hardship should be endured by veterans such as Mr Joe Ousalice, now suffering from terminal cancer, who was sacked simply because he was gay after giving nearly 18 years loyal service to the Navy?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, nobody can do anything other than agree with my noble friend. The progress we are making is as we set out after we received the review and considered it in December. Since that time, 26 of the 49 recommendations are now complete, eight remain to be completed by the Ministry of Defence, 12 remain to be completed by the NHS and three remain to be completed by the Office for Veterans’ Affairs, which is all about the very important memorial issue. The door has opened to the extremely important webpage “LGBT veterans: support and next steps” on GOV.UK—I will repeat this as often as I can. We have now had over 2,000 contacts, which have so far resulted in 415 applications to date for restorative measures, including financial measures.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, there is something of a pattern here. When His Majesty’s Government pledged to make recompense to the war widows, there was an assumption that something would happen, but we heard a few weeks ago that some of the war widows were no longer eligible for the money they thought they were going to receive. We are now hearing that His Majesty’s Government are spending time creating a scheme for LGBT veterans. That is clearly welcome, but, as we have heard from both sides of the Chamber, there is an urgency about this, because some of the veterans have terminal illnesses. They and their families need to know that they are going to be recompensed sooner rather than later. Can His Majesty’s Government make a commitment to come back not just with another Statement but with the scheme that is needed?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am fully aware of the war widows issue and we are addressing that at the same time. It is very important that all these things get finished off as quickly as we possibly can. As far as the content is concerned, I have given a commitment that I will return before the Summer Recess. That will not be another Statement; it will contain what the process is going to be.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I am happy to pay tribute to the Minister for the commitments he has made openly, both to the Question we are discussing and to the modes by which he will deliver further progress on this issue. He will have noticed, in the way the Question was formed, that my noble friend Lord Cashman has used the future perfect of the verb. In other words, will it be enough to hear an update on what is happening, or do we all long for the day when we know what has happened?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, we come back to grammar. We are all on the same page on this. Everybody is in full agreement, but we have to make certain that it is done fairly, that everybody who has the right opportunity to apply gets that opportunity, and that the compensation and other restorative measures are available to everybody concerned at the appropriate time.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I remind your Lordships’ House of my interest as a serving member of the Armed Forces. It is imperative that our Armed Forces are representative of the society they seek to protect. While there has been significant progress in recent years when it comes to the recruitment of women and ethnic minorities into the Armed Forces, much work still needs to be done. The Royal Air Force has been an exemplar in this area. So can my noble friend simply reassure your Lordships’ House that this remains a priority for His Majesty’s Government?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I can do no more than assure the House that it is indeed an absolute priority for the Government.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind your Lordships’ House of my registered interests, specifically my roles with the Royal Navy. I also put on record our thanks to my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, and to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for everything they have done to keep this issue on our agenda.

Fighting With Pride has done an extraordinary job of raising the horrendous experiences of LGBT+ veterans who served prior to 2000, and I thank the organisation for its service. It is the least that we owe it, and the veterans it serves, to enact every recommendation in the review of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, especially recommendation 28. Can the Minister update us on whether the planned financial redress will be a blanket amount per affected veteran, or whether it will—as requested by Fighting With Pride—be applied on a case-by-case basis?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, when it comes down to it, it must be on a case-by-case basis, because a lot of the information that we have available to check and re-check exactly who has been so badly dealt with is either missing or not particularly accurate. I say again that anybody who has any interest in this should apply on the “LGBT veterans: support and next steps” page on GOV.UK. So far, we have only had just over 400 applications, which is less than we thought. We really want to make certain that this is absolutely comprehensive and that everybody gets paid—and all the other restorative measures, which are just as important, are taken—as quickly and practically as possible.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, it is commendable that 26 recommendations have been adopted, but does the Minister agree that, without the financial element, it could be seen as window dressing? Difficult though it is, the Canadian Government turned around a much larger scheme with a much larger cohort within four months of receiving their report. I am mystified as to why the MoD cannot do the same.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the Canadian example is apposite but very different. The Canadian Government took a very clear administrative approach, which addressed a specific number of people, where they already had the information. We are not in that position, and it is important that we catch everybody who is likely to be affected, to make certain that justice and the right thing are done.