Building Safety Bill

Earl of Lytton Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 28th February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the instructions on the sheet of paper in front of me are not “crescendo” but “diminuendo”—some gentle accompaniment on the bass to the forte soprano that we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. But seriously, I want to add a brief footnote to the excellent speeches made by the noble Baroness, my noble friend and the right reverend Prelate.

I make the point that they all underline the need for the next stage of leasehold reform which the Government have promised, which does away with this feudal system of leasehold which exists nowhere else in the world. Once we have done that, all these problems that we have been talking about this afternoon will disappear: there will be an identity of interest between the freeholder and the leaseholder because they will be the same person. At some point, perhaps the Minister can shed some light on the next stage, confirming that that is indeed the Government’s objective and that they want to move in that direction as fast as possible.

I add a brief footnote to the excellent speech the right reverend Prelate made on Amendment 50A. In particular, I draw attention to the radical proposal in subsection (3)(a) of the new clause proposed in his amendment, which places an obligation on the landlord for

“where there is no recognised tenants’ association in existence before the coming into force of this section, creating a recognised tenants’ association and consulting with it about building safety”.

Because of the Long Title of the Bill, the right reverend Prelate had to confine it to building safety. However, it is a radical proposal. It places the obligation for establishing a tenants’ association not on the tenants, which is the position at the moment, but on the landlord, evening up the terms of trade. As I said, it is a very radical proposal indeed. An indifferent landlord does not want a residents’ association or a tenants’ association with whom he has a statutory obligation to consult, although I happen to believe that it is in his best interests to have such a dialogue. So the terms of trade are dramatically altered by the right reverend Prelate’s amendment.

In an earlier incarnation, I recall helping establish an organisation called Tpas—the Tenant Participation Advisory Service—I see the noble Lord, Lord Best, nodding sagely; he has a similar vintage to myself when it comes to housing legislation. That was focused primarily on tenants of social landlords, but I believe it has subsequently expanded into the private sector. It would be very well placed to advise landlords and tenants on how to set about establishing such an association, were the right reverend Prelate’s amendment to be accepted.

Finally, on this group of amendments, I reread chapter 4 of the Hackitt report last night, entitled “Residents’ voice”, and it has a whole series of recommendations about enfranchising the resident and the tenant in exactly the way that we have underlined. So, as I said at the beginning, I add a small a complement on the double bass to the excellent speeches that have been made on this group of amendments—or perhaps I am a tenor.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I will try to be brief here. This is an extremely valuable group of amendments, and I entirely relate to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra.

I will comment on something that the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, said. He introduced the question of, if I paraphrase him right, the undesirability of the long-term continuation of conventional long leasehold, and I understand that. For some years I chaired the Leasehold Advisory Service when it was first set up, which was in response to a ministerial commitment that it should be put in place and that there should be advice to leaseholders.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I will try to be brief. I will just pick up on the last point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, who has been a doughty campaigner on all this. We have the problem that this Bill creates a bureaucratic and quite complex situation. That can only weigh in favour of those who hold the real money here, which are the developers. We must try to focus on rebalancing that so that the leaseholders are on some sort of even playing field.

I noted very carefully what the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, said on the detail of the accounting process. I very much support what he said. There is an element of discrimination, which was brought out by the noble Lord, Lord Naseby. Why do we discriminate between different categories of person and what does anybody think that will result in in terms of some class action further down the road? This whole thing has to be robust against applications to some international court, to the High Court or for judicial review. There absolutely has to be proof against serial activity. I know into whose hands that will play, and it will not be to the leaseholders’ benefit. There are an awful lot of exclusions here. The noble Lord, Leigh of Hurley, made a potent point about those who have already paid up. What about them? A point has also been made about proportionality and risk.

I will cut my other comments really quite short and just pose a few questions. As I see it—I was in dialogue with the British Property Federation about this—only in the case where you have a non-cladding effect, where the developer does not exist or cannot be found, does that trigger the freeholder responsibility to make a contribution for remediation, and only after the cap liability of the leaseholder. The Minister does not need to reply to me now, but I would like to be absolutely clear that that is the scenario—one of several—that applies here.

Moving on to Amendment 67, I would like to make a comment. As drafted, does the amendment cover limited partnerships? They are not corporate entities and are different from limited liability partnerships, which are covered by the amendment. For instance, the effective owner of Waterside Park, where a lot of issues have arisen, is just such a limited partnership. Is it the Government’s intention that limited partnerships should be included in the definition of “associated persons”? If not, why not? Because that would create a gaping hole.

--- Later in debate ---

We are approaching 90 minutes on this group. I thank noble Lords for our spirited debate on this matter, which I know is close to the hearts of many on all sides of this Committee. I hope that I have provided the information and reassurance needed, and ask noble Lords to withdraw or not press their amendments.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

The Minister answered a query I raised in connection with Amendment 72; I apologise for jumping a group. It was to do with commercial developers. I think I used the term “commercial developers”, but I intended to say “developers of commercial property”—that is, as opposed to commercial developers of residential property.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Oh, I see. You said commercial developers?

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

I said commercial developers, but I meant to say “developers of commercial property”. However, I will leave that point for the next debate.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, as the Committee enters its sixth hour of sitting, this is not the time for a comprehensive wind-up. However, I thank all those who have taken part in this debate.

My noble friend Lord Naseby made a valuable point about buy-to-let investors. Over the past 10 or 20 years, buy to let has become an alternative to a conventional pension for many people. I am grateful that my noble friend the Minister said that he is open to discussion on this; we count that as a win.

My noble friend Lord Blencathra had a series of amendments on the theme of protecting leaseholders. I am grateful for them.

My noble friend Lord Leigh of Hurley made a legitimate point about the freeholder who had not claimed the money he could have. I wrote down the solution that my noble friend the Minister arrived at. He said, “We will fix it at the political level.” The mind boggles as to what exactly that involves but I am sure that, with his robust physique and experience of government, he will come up with a satisfactory outcome on that.

The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, would remove the cap for leaseholders. I have a lot of sympathy with that. New paragraph 2(1), proposed by government Amendment 92, states:

“No service charge is payable under a qualifying lease in respect of a relevant measure relating to a relevant defect if a relevant landlord … is responsible for the relevant defect.”


That is fine, but then there is a whole series of exclusions, of which this is one. I find it difficult to reconcile the cap with the principle that the leaseholder is innocent and should not pay; I think we will have to come to back to that.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, made the same point as my noble friend Lord Leigh of Hurley: that the leaseholder should be able to apply. If the leaseholder could have applied in my noble friend’s case, there would not have been a problem and the freeholder would not have been in the loop, as it were.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for supporting a number of the amendments. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, had her own, thoughtful approach to protecting leaseholders. She referred to the cascade. I hope that her many questions will be answered; perhaps we can all share in the letter that goes round. She also supported the request for an inquiry into compensation, for which I am grateful.

On the waterfall, the Government did not seem to appear in it. I thought that they were right at the end, but they have somehow been left out. I think that the Government are at the end of the waterfall if all else fails; my noble friend the Minister is indicating that this may not be the case, but what are the levy and fund for if not to help where the costs are not otherwise met by the freeholder, the leaseholder or the developer?

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, asked how the cap was arrived at. It may well have been through a reverse process involving the Treasury.

Finally, my noble friend the Minister said that I thought he was a snake oil salesman. I believe that he believed what he said; my comment was about the pace at which he said it, which was like an advertisement where the terms and conditions are spelled out at an accelerated pace and one does not really have time to hear them. I think my noble friend said that enfranchised leaseholders are now within the scheme; I think he said that because I read his lips. I find that difficult to reconcile with what is in government Amendment 63:

“‘Relevant building’ does not include a self-contained building or self-contained part of a building … in relation to which the right to collective enfranchisement … has been exercised.”


If that should not be there, that is fine, but that is how I read it; I also made that point in an earlier contribution.