Local Audit and Accountability Bill [HL]

Earl of Lytton Excerpts

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I shall speak also to the other amendments in this group. These amendments clarify how the audit-related functions in the Bill will sit in the case of a parish meeting where there is no separate parish council. Where new functions are created as a consequence of the local appointment of auditors, the amendments clarify where those functions will sit for a parish meeting. The amendments are relatively minor in nature.

Unlike a parish council, a parish meeting has only one elected member: its chairman. However, all local government electors in the parish are entitled to vote at a parish meeting and are therefore, arguably, members. Where there is no separate parish council, the chairman and the proper officer of the district are together known as the parish trustees, and the parish trustees are the body corporate of the parish meeting.

The principle we have used is that, where a function is of an administrative nature—which is the case in the majority of functions—it would be exercised by the chairman on behalf of the parish meeting. For example, the chairman will be responsible for ensuring that a local government elector may inspect the statement of accounts. This rule is set out in Amendment 36. Where a function is of a deliberative or decision-making nature, it would sit with the parish meeting itself rather than be delegated to the chairman. For example, the decision to appoint an auditor, and the consideration of a report in the public interest, will sit with the parish meeting itself. These exceptions to the general rule are set out in Amendments 16, 44, 45, 48, 53, 68 and 71.

Amendments 15, 19 and 20 would ensure that certain duties that would otherwise be placed on members of the parish meeting are restricted to the chairman and the proper officer of the district and are not placed on all local government electors. These functions include supplying information and attending meetings with the auditor. This approach is consistent with the treatment of parish councils in the Bill, where the functions are placed only on council members and do not extend to local government electors.

Amendments 62 and 69 would remove disproportionately onerous and costly burdens from the chairman of a parish meeting. He will not be required to supply a copy of a report in the public interest to all local government electors. Local government electors will be able to access a report in the public interest or a written recommendation under provisions made in Clause 24. Amendment 34 would insert a definition of “parish meeting” into the Bill and Amendments 42 and 55 would reflect that definition.

Finally, Amendments 60, 63 and 66 are tidying amendments. These are redundant in the light of Section 231 of the Local Government Act 1972, which provides that where a document is to be served on a parish meeting, it should be addressed to the chairman.

I should also make clear to noble Lords that we have discussed these amendments with the smaller authority sector, and I confirm that the National Association of Local Councils is content with them. On that basis, I beg to move.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome these amendments. I apologise to the Minister for not being in my place for the previous group of amendments; I had intended to be in the Chamber when she spoke but unfortunately had a guest with me.

I can confirm that this group of amendments seems eminently sensible, particularly as they deal with the very smallest of the parish family, if I can call it that. I welcome the pragmatic approach that has been put forward here.

Perhaps I may say also that, in general, I am much indebted to the noble Baroness, and to her predecessor, for the way in which the amendments were taken from this House after all the consideration that we had, and other things were added in the other place, which on the whole have considerably enriched the Bill. I am extremely grateful for that, and the parish and town council movement—I am proud to be the president of the national association—warmly welcomes the general direction of travel. I therefore welcome this group of amendments, in particular.

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[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I expect we all welcome the intentions of the amendments: I certainly do. I must confess that my first response when I read about this was a little surprise that they were considered necessary. I am sure the vast majority of authorities of all persuasions are already doing this. It may well be that, in some cases, their standing orders have not been brought up to date, but I am sure that most are doing it very willingly. However, I then reflected on my early days as a councillor, quite a long time ago, when all council and committee meetings were open to the public, as required—if I remember rightly—by a Private Member’s Bill introduced by the then new and young honourable Member for Finchley, Mrs Thatcher. The one committee not open to the public was what was then called the planning committee; it would now probably be the development control committee. This was, arguably, the committee of greatest interest to members of the public but it was the one to which they were not allowed access.

Those days are, fortunately, long gone but it reminded me that we need to ensure we keep up to date with the times. I am sure all noble Lords welcome the good intentions of these amendments. The key will be in the drafting of the regulations. I am not sure why any local authority or council would wish to stop someone tweeting during a meeting or, if they did, how they could implement it without the most draconian measures. That is well and good, but the difficult part will be making regulations that require the greatest openness but do not allow the avoidable disruption of meetings.

I hesitate a little, because a fundamental part of our democracy is the right to be irritating and to annoy. I think the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is suggesting that I am doing this at the moment. We all know from our local authority experience that there are some people whom everyone agrees are simply a nuisance. It will be quite tricky to balance the regulations to ensure that the person—it is usually an individual rather than a collection—has a right to be a nuisance and be irritating but does not disrupt the good order and procedure of the meeting. I imagine that the decision will be in the hands of whoever is chairing the meeting. They have the right now to have disruptive people ejected, as happens occasionally, and this will, no doubt, still be the case. However it will be quite difficult to draw the balance between allowing the maximum openness and transparency at meetings, which we would all endorse, with not allowing individuals —I stress, individuals—with a cause from unnecessarily and avoidably disrupting proceedings.

We look forward with interest to seeing the regulations. I am delighted that the Minister has made clear that there will be wide consultation with the local government associations, NALC and other bodies in the drawing up of these. We look forward to seeing the result.

[The Earl of Lytton]

My Lords, I relate to what the noble Lord, Lord Tope, has just said. I have a mental image of the small parish or town council, with its quite limited premises, taking on progressively more functions and finding itself in the centre of some awfully controversial measure. The premises might, quite literally, be crowded out by people with cameras or wanting to record: the sort of thing one sees on television outside the courts of justice when a person of fame—or infamy, as the case may be—has received a decision. The scrum that goes on out there is the sort of thing that slightly worries me, particularly, for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, with development control, which in many instances is highly contentious.

I will not ask the Minister for an answer at this juncture, but could she bear in mind that uniformity of regulations across the whole of local government might be difficult to achieve, for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Tope? There is also a question of how open-ended this public right is. There will clearly be instances—I am sure we have all witnessed meetings of this sort—where it can be thoroughly disruptive and an impediment to the sober and conscientious consideration of matters on the agenda. Perhaps there must be some limitations. Like the noble Lord, Lord Tope, I look forward to seeing the draft regulations in due course. I appreciate what the Minister has said about the process for that: would she perhaps clarify the timescale for it? That would be very helpful, particularly for parish and town councils, a bigger proportion of which may be affected by this measure than principal authorities which, in many cases, already have generous facilities for public access and the recording of proceedings.

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, I occasionally encounter some unfortunate being who has apparently had nothing better to do than watch me on Parliament TV. It is possible that others of your Lordships may have had similar encounters. Oddly enough, although Newcastle City Council—on which both I and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, have served—has webcast its meetings for many years, nobody has ever claimed to have seen me on those broadcasts. Perhaps that says something about the medium not quite having conveyed the message thus far.

I join my honourable friends in the House of Commons in welcoming these changes. It is fair to say, and was said by the Minister in the debate on this provision in the Commons, that the Opposition Front Bench there were very supportive of the concept. It is welcome that these proposals come here and, as the Minister pointed out, that they include the potential for safeguards. I presume that these will, as she has implied, be negotiated, or at least discussed, with the Local Government Association so as to avoid conduct which might disrupt meetings and to provide clarity about what happens when, for legitimate reasons, the press and public may be excluded. Examples might be if there are matters of commercial confidentiality or confidential personal details to be discussed in certain areas. I might like to suggest, though it may not reach into regulations, that selfies might be prohibited, but that is a matter of taste rather than democracy.

It would also be helpful if, alongside any regulations, the Government gave some information, in guidelines or otherwise, about the risks that may be attendant on people filming, tweeting or otherwise relaying actual events. Although one hopes it would not happen, what is said in council may sometimes stray into the area of defamation and those relaying matters of that sort could find themselves in a difficult situation. Some guidance about the need to be careful would help those who might otherwise run into difficulties. It is not likely to arise in a large number of cases but it is conceivable it might happen. Broadcasting authorities and so on are very alert to that danger. In Parliament it is privilege but that does not apply to local authorities.

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[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I shall speak also to Amendment 103. These amendments would modernise the arrangements that govern parish polls. I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for bringing the much-needed modernisation of parish polls to the House’s attention when the Bill was last in this place. I understand, although I was not here at the time, that he had widespread support from other noble Lords. I am also grateful to the Members of the other place who consented to widen the scope of the Bill to allow the addition of these amendments.

Commons Amendment 30 gives the Secretary of State power to make regulations regarding parish polls. The clause specifies that regulations may cover arrangements for the conduct of a poll; the subject matter on which a poll may be held; and the circumstances in which a poll may or must be taken. So, in line with the noble Earl’s proposed amendment, this amendment will enable regulations that more tightly define what constitutes a legitimate topic for a poll and which raise the trigger threshold. On top of this, we will also modernise the voting arrangements to increase participation in polls by, for example, extending voting hours and allowing postal voting. Amendment 103 simply updates the Bill’s Long Title to reflect the inclusion of the new clause.

We are taking this action because we believe that parish polls are an important democratic tool that allows a parish council to get a clear indication of local opinion about a local matter. We want to protect that. However, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, outlined to the House last year, the current rules that govern the trigger and subject matter allow for individuals to abuse them by holding polls unrelated to the local area, at substantial cost to local tax payers. This has led to some individuals vexatiously pursuing particular agendas, with large financial consequences for parish councils. What is more, the present rules can also operate as barriers to participation, particularly as voting can take place only between the hours of 4 pm and 9 pm and there are no provisions for postal or proxy votes.

The new measures will make this important democratic process fit for purpose in the modern world. They will ensure that parish polls enable local communities to have a voice on issues that directly relate to parish matters. They will increase participation by updating the archaic arrangements for the conduct of a poll and guard against vexatious misuse. We will consult widely on the content of the regulations, which will be subject to the negative procedure. It is our aim to launch a scoping exercise in the spring, followed by a formal consultation process. We hope to work closely with the noble Earl and sector-led bodies, such as the National Association of Local Councils, in that work. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Lytton]

I particularly welcome this amendment for all the reasons recited by the noble Baroness. I think that it will substantially modernise, improve and streamline the work of parish councils and make them more open, without having the negative impediments that have previously been associated with parish polls. I very much welcome this. In doing so, as I expressed when this was before us previously, I thank other noble Lords who supported this; the noble Baroness’s predecessor, the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, who readily took this away; and the Bill team for the work that it did to fashion it and get it approved by the other place. I warmly welcome this measure for all the reasons given. It is very much a success all round, for which I claim only minority credit for having raised the matter in the first place.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we should thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for raising this matter in the first place, and he should certainly claim a substantial amount of credit for it. He regaled us in Committee with some of the anomalies and archaic processes concerning parish meetings. Voting only between 4 pm and 9 pm with no provision for proxy or postal voting is hardly the stuff of inclusion. The noble Earl was convincing on the need to modernise arrangements, and the Government responded by providing for the Secretary of State to have the power to make regulations about the conduct of parish polls. We consented in the other place, as the Minister acknowledged, in widening the scope of the Bill to facilitate this.

The Government gave undertakings in another place—they have been reiterated tonight—about continued collaboration with the National Association of Local Councils and with the noble Earl, and we trust that the promised wide consultation on draft regulations will now proceed apace. This is an opportunity, as has been said, to provide a method for local communities to have a voice on issues directly related to parish matters, and it has our support.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we accept that these are minor and technical amendments and have no points to raise.

This is my final utterance on this Bill so I, too, would like to take the opportunity to thank all those who have been involved, particularly the Bill team, who have been helpful during the passage of the Bill and in focusing on these amendments. I thank the stalwarts of our debates, the noble Lords, Lord Tope and Lord Shipley, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and my noble friend Lord Beecham, who brings with him not only a very serious understanding of local government and its challenges but the fantastic ability to deliver his thoughts in a light-hearted and challenging way. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, and the noble Baroness’s predecessor, the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham.

[The Earl of Lytton]

My Lords, I follow the noble Lord in thanking the noble Baroness for her unfailing courtesy, and that of her Bill team, and particularly for keeping me in the loop as matters have proceeded through the other place. That was very welcome and I am extremely grateful for that, and I am sure I can say the same for the parish and town council movement for her consideration and care over this matter.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, lest my silence should be misunderstood, I echo those sentiments from the Liberal Democrat Benches. I began this evening by paying tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, and wishing well to our Minister now, the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, who has performed eloquently this evening and succeeded in passing more than 100 amendments, which is getting close to a record. I echo the thanks that have been given to the Bill team for the great help they have given all of us in understanding this most interesting Bill.