Lord Tope
Main Page: Lord Tope (Liberal Democrat - Life peer)Local Audit and Accountability Bill [HL]
Lord Tope Excerpts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, I beg to move that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 1 to 14 en bloc. I shall speak also to the other amendments in this group, which amend the provisions for the appointment of local auditors.
Although I see that the Bill is not attracting a great deal of attention this afternoon, it is worth saying briefly that it increases local accountability and transparency, and helps local people to hold councils and local bodies to account for their spending decisions. The Bill is the final step in a programme of reforms to local audit that will result in an estimated £1.2 billion of savings over 10 years.
Before I go on to explain the amendments in this group, I pay tribute to my predecessor and noble friend Lady Hanham, who, as noble Lords will know, was responsible for taking this Bill through your Lordships’ House last year. All credit should go to my noble friend for amendments that the Government have accepted or are making to the Bill in response to debates in your Lordships’ House. I know that other noble Lords would want to join me in acknowledging her work on the Bill. I only regret that she is not in her place today. Indeed, because of the technical nature of the Bill, I perhaps regret that she is not at the Dispatch Box, but I will do my best.
Commons Amendments 1 to 13, 17, 31 and 33 would enable the development of sector-led collective procurement arrangements. They would allow the sector to come together and, if it wishes, to establish a body to procure auditors on behalf of local public bodies that choose to participate. These amendments fulfil a commitment made by the Government during Report in the Lords and reflect opposition amendments proposed both here and in the other place. The Government recognise the potential benefits of local authorities coming together jointly to procure their auditor as a means of achieving efficiencies and economies of scale and keeping audit fees low.
The Bill already allows two or more authorities jointly to procure their auditor. However, following calls from the sector—the Local Government Association in particular—and noble Lords, these amendments go further to allow for large-scale collective procurement led by a separate sector-led body.
As the Government have previously stated, any collective procurement arrangements established under these regulations will be voluntary. Local authorities will be able to choose to participate or to make their own appointment locally.
Commons Amendment 17 inserts into the Bill a new clause that will allow the sector to establish collective procurement arrangements. Under the new clause, the Government will, by regulations, make provision for certain authorities to have their auditor appointed by an “appointing person” specified by the Secretary of State. This will allow the Secretary of State to designate a sector-led body as an appointing person, and give them the necessary powers and duties to act as a collective procurement body. From now on, I will refer to the appointing person simply as the sector-led body.
Regulations will set out the process by which authorities choose to participate in sector-led arrangements, the process for specifying a sector-led body, and the powers, functions and duties of such a body. This would include, for example, a power to levy fees on opted-in authorities, and a corresponding duty on the body to consult before setting those fees.
Regulations under the new clause will also be able to modify other parts of the Act as they apply to authorities that have opted into the collective procurement arrangements. We intend to use this power to ensure that, where necessary, other provisions reflect the different appointment process for these authorities. For example, authorities that opt in and do not make their own appointment will not need to establish an independent auditor panel.
Commons Amendment 31 provides that regulations made under this new clause will be subject to the affirmative procedure. The Government also intend to consult publicly on draft regulations before they are made.
Commons Amendments 1 to 3, 13 and 33 would make minor changes to the definition of a local auditor in the Bill. These minor amendments are necessary in the light of the wider amendment to enable sector-led collective procurement. They reflect the fact that an authority could in future have their auditor appointed by a sector-led body, rather than make an appointment itself.
Commons Amendments 4 to 12 would make a number of minor changes to the existing provisions in the Bill that already allow for sector-led collective procurement for smaller authorities. They ensure consistency with the new clause introduced by Amendment 17, and clarify the Government’s powers to make regulations in relation to such arrangements.
Commons Amendment 14 will ensure that the term of an auditor’s appointment is confirmed publicly when the appointment is made. It will support greater transparency, and ensure that the public and audit firms know when the existing audit contract for a local body is due to end. The amendment reflects previous discussions on this matter both here and in the other place. Having considered the case for this further, the Government accept that it would be useful to put the matter beyond doubt through this amendment. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, proposed a similar amendment in Committee and will, I hope, therefore welcome this amendment today.
Amendment 46 is a minor amendment that would clarify that existing legislative requirements will continue to apply to audit committees of health service bodies where they act as the independent auditor panel. This will ensure that the operation of legislation governing health body audit committees is not unintentionally affected by this Bill.
There has been strong support for a collective approach to auditor procurement and appointment from all sides of the House during the passage of the Bill, and I hope these amendments will be welcomed.
Lord Tope (LD)
My Lords, I begin too by thanking and joining the Minister in her tribute to her predecessor, the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham. I think we would agree, on all sides of the House, that she was always willing to listen—not always to agree, and indeed sometimes she might have agreed but might not have been able to say so. Certainly she would always listen, and if a reasonable case was made she would do her best to see that, so I thank her for that.
I wish the Minister every success, having picked up the baton. She commented that there was not huge interest in this Bill. She might not be aware that perhaps that was in part because, at the start of this Bill, the Secretary of State was reported to have said of this Bill, “It is not as interesting as it sounds”. Those of us who have worked on the Bill tirelessly through the summer would not necessarily echo the reported comments of the Secretary of the State.
Often—not always—with debates on local government legislation, we genuinely try to improve the legislation, whether we like it or not, to make it more workable. This is a very good example of how that success has been achieved. I reminded myself by looking back to our Second Reading debate in this House back in the summer. Indeed, the issue of joint procurement was raised at that stage. It received, I think it is fair to say, a sympathetic response, and here we come to the last stage of the Bill, when we are actually getting what we on all sides of the House were seeking.
This is a very useful and important measure. It is voluntary. Local authorities are given the opportunity to opt in to a shared arrangement. That was what we were seeking. It is not mandatory. They are not required, but they are able—exactly as we want—to choose what is best for their particular circumstances, so I thank the Minister. I welcome these amendments and I feel confident that they will have a general welcome on all sides of the House.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, in moving the Motion on Amendment 26, I shall speak also to the other amendments in this group.
Noble Lords will be aware that these are new provisions. These amendments insert a new clause into the Bill that would give greater rights to report at local government meetings and to have access to documents. We believe that this is an important extension to reflect greater enthusiasm and appetite among the public not just for transparency but also to have an element of control over the information and the access that they enjoy which allows them to continue discussion and debate beyond being just observers at meetings.
Commons Amendment 26 gives the Secretary of State the power to make regulations that would allow members of the public to report proceedings at public meetings, allowing people to film, audio-record, tweet and blog at a meeting of a local government body. This will allow those who are unable to attend the meeting to follow the proceedings and, as I have just said, perhaps promote discussion about proceedings thereafter. It will also give the public access to documents of local government bodies. These documents may, for instance, include records of decisions taken by officers acting under delegated powers; the reasons for the decisions, details of any alternative options considered and rejected, and any other documents connected with the decisions to which they relate.
The regulations may set out possible conditions to be met before such activities can be carried out. Likewise, they may specify the circumstances where activities such as filming or audio recording might not be permitted. The Government intend to work with partners such as the Local Government Association and the National Association of Local Councils on the detail of the regulations. They will be subject to the affirmative procedure if there is provision in the regulations amending or repealing primary legislation; otherwise the regulations will be subject to the negative procedure.
Local people are currently enjoying more rights under the Local Authorities (Executive Arrangements) (Meetings and Access to Information) (England) Regulations 2012 when they attend meetings of a council’s executive and access information relating to decisions made in those meetings. Unfortunately, these same people cannot enjoy the same rights when they attend the public meetings of full council, its committees, sub-committees and joint committees, parish and town councils and other local government bodies. Some councils have used this inconsistent approach to refuse the public access. We are aware of some recent examples of councils ejecting members of the public from meetings for filming or tweeting from those meetings. That is why we have decided to bring forward these amendments now.
Since the 2012 regulations came into force, we are not aware that they have caused any particular problem for local authorities, other than some needing to update their standing orders to reflect the change in access rights by the press and public. We do not believe that this greater access should create additional burdens. However, I am aware that some may be concerned about the possible disruption that filming in council meetings might cause. Therefore, we will consider possible steps that have to be taken by people attending the meeting for the purpose of reporting the proceedings so that activities such as filming or taking photographs might not disturb the good order and conduct of a meeting. As I say, we intend to work with partners to ensure that the regulations and any guidance address this.
We are in a digital age where technology has significantly evolved and we need to acknowledge that it will continue to advance swiftly. With this in mind, we must widely embrace the use of modern communication methods such as filming, tweeting and blogging at public meetings. On top of this, opening up these bodies would help the public to have a better understanding of their local decision-making process and, as I said, potentially encourage them to be more involved in local affairs. I beg to move.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I expect we all welcome the intentions of the amendments: I certainly do. I must confess that my first response when I read about this was a little surprise that they were considered necessary. I am sure the vast majority of authorities of all persuasions are already doing this. It may well be that, in some cases, their standing orders have not been brought up to date, but I am sure that most are doing it very willingly. However, I then reflected on my early days as a councillor, quite a long time ago, when all council and committee meetings were open to the public, as required—if I remember rightly—by a Private Member’s Bill introduced by the then new and young honourable Member for Finchley, Mrs Thatcher. The one committee not open to the public was what was then called the planning committee; it would now probably be the development control committee. This was, arguably, the committee of greatest interest to members of the public but it was the one to which they were not allowed access.
Those days are, fortunately, long gone but it reminded me that we need to ensure we keep up to date with the times. I am sure all noble Lords welcome the good intentions of these amendments. The key will be in the drafting of the regulations. I am not sure why any local authority or council would wish to stop someone tweeting during a meeting or, if they did, how they could implement it without the most draconian measures. That is well and good, but the difficult part will be making regulations that require the greatest openness but do not allow the avoidable disruption of meetings.
I hesitate a little, because a fundamental part of our democracy is the right to be irritating and to annoy. I think the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is suggesting that I am doing this at the moment. We all know from our local authority experience that there are some people whom everyone agrees are simply a nuisance. It will be quite tricky to balance the regulations to ensure that the person—it is usually an individual rather than a collection—has a right to be a nuisance and be irritating but does not disrupt the good order and procedure of the meeting. I imagine that the decision will be in the hands of whoever is chairing the meeting. They have the right now to have disruptive people ejected, as happens occasionally, and this will, no doubt, still be the case. However it will be quite difficult to draw the balance between allowing the maximum openness and transparency at meetings, which we would all endorse, with not allowing individuals —I stress, individuals—with a cause from unnecessarily and avoidably disrupting proceedings.
We look forward with interest to seeing the regulations. I am delighted that the Minister has made clear that there will be wide consultation with the local government associations, NALC and other bodies in the drawing up of these. We look forward to seeing the result.
The Earl of Lytton
My Lords, I relate to what the noble Lord, Lord Tope, has just said. I have a mental image of the small parish or town council, with its quite limited premises, taking on progressively more functions and finding itself in the centre of some awfully controversial measure. The premises might, quite literally, be crowded out by people with cameras or wanting to record: the sort of thing one sees on television outside the courts of justice when a person of fame—or infamy, as the case may be—has received a decision. The scrum that goes on out there is the sort of thing that slightly worries me, particularly, for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, with development control, which in many instances is highly contentious.
I will not ask the Minister for an answer at this juncture, but could she bear in mind that uniformity of regulations across the whole of local government might be difficult to achieve, for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Tope? There is also a question of how open-ended this public right is. There will clearly be instances—I am sure we have all witnessed meetings of this sort—where it can be thoroughly disruptive and an impediment to the sober and conscientious consideration of matters on the agenda. Perhaps there must be some limitations. Like the noble Lord, Lord Tope, I look forward to seeing the draft regulations in due course. I appreciate what the Minister has said about the process for that: would she perhaps clarify the timescale for it? That would be very helpful, particularly for parish and town councils, a bigger proportion of which may be affected by this measure than principal authorities which, in many cases, already have generous facilities for public access and the recording of proceedings.
The Earl of Lytton
My Lords, I follow the noble Lord in thanking the noble Baroness for her unfailing courtesy, and that of her Bill team, and particularly for keeping me in the loop as matters have proceeded through the other place. That was very welcome and I am extremely grateful for that, and I am sure I can say the same for the parish and town council movement for her consideration and care over this matter.
Lord Tope
My Lords, lest my silence should be misunderstood, I echo those sentiments from the Liberal Democrat Benches. I began this evening by paying tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, and wishing well to our Minister now, the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, who has performed eloquently this evening and succeeded in passing more than 100 amendments, which is getting close to a record. I echo the thanks that have been given to the Bill team for the great help they have given all of us in understanding this most interesting Bill.