Oral Answers to Questions

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd May 2023 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

1. What recent progress she has made on negotiating the UK’s association to Horizon Europe.

[The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Chloe Smith)]

I am thrilled to answer today for the new Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, stepping in while my right hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan) begins her maternity leave. May I also take a moment to wish my colleague, the Minister for Data and Digital Infrastructure, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez) well? As a Department, we are keen to make maternity leave normal and successful, and it is vital that this House gives support to that.

Outstanding science and research is vital to me, to my right hon. Friend who has started her maternity leave and to the Prime Minister, so we are working hard on the UK’s involvement in Horizon Europe. We hope negotiations will be successful and that it is our preference. However, our participation must be on the basis of a good deal for UK researchers, businesses and taxpayers. If we are not able to associate on the right terms, we will implement our bold, ambitious alternative to Horizon—Pioneer.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I welcome the right hon. Lady to her place. Having the University of Hull in my patch, I know very well how important Horizon grants have been to the funding of research and scientific excellence. The Conservative party made a manifesto promise to secure association to Horizon Europe, which is the world’s biggest science funding and collaboration programme. How can universities and scientists plan for the future if that has not been sorted out yet?

[Chloe Smith]

The right hon. Lady’s question reflects exactly why we are working so hard to achieve that association. However, we need to accommodate the lasting impact of two years of European Union delays to the United Kingdom’s association. Senior scientists, such as Professor Boyle, the chair of the Universities UK relevant network, for example, acknowledge that our approach demonstrates how seriously this issue is being taken by all sides. They also agree that it is entirely appropriate that we have the alternative plan and that the sector can work together with the Government to achieve that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Thursday 27th April 2023 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

1. What discussions she has had with the BBC on its proposed cuts to local radio services.

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

The Department for Culture, Media and Sport regularly meets the BBC to discuss a range of issues. Ministers have met the BBC on several occasions since the announcement, where we have expressed the House’s shared concerns about the BBC’s plans to reduce parts of its local radio output. Ministers made clear that the BBC must continue to provide distinctive and genuinely local radio services, with content that represents and serves communities from all corners of the UK.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Well, the BBC is not doing that, and I am furious that BBC Radio Humberside is essentially being trashed. Local radio content will end at 2 pm each day. There is no coverage at weekends. Local presenters, including Burnsy, have had to apply for their jobs, and only one was successful. The rest are facing gagging clauses and fear losing their redundancy pay if they speak out. This is basically the end of local public service radio, which is irreplaceable, and the BBC management will not listen. It is easier to get a meeting with the Prime Minister than the director-general. Can I ask Ministers to do what Burnsy would suggest, and get BBC managers to give their heads a wobble and sort this out?

[Julia Lopez]

I shall do my best to get some heads wobbling. I know that the right hon. Lady is a big supporter of Radio Humberside and her local BBC television service, “Look North”. I know this situation is difficult for the journalists affected. The BBC has told us that these are cost-neutral changes and that it is moving resource into digital and providing some additional resource in relation to original journalism, but this House has said many times and has effectively expressed its collective opinion that these cuts are regrettable, and it is something we will continue to discuss with the BBC.

Points of Order

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Monday 17th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I say that it is very nice to see you back in the Chair?

On World Haemophilia Day, I am disappointed that there has been no statement from the Government in the light of Sir Brian Langstaff’s second interim report on the infected blood inquiry, which was published during the Easter recess with very clear recommendations for the Government on the urgent action required for compensation. As I know you are aware, Madam Deputy Speaker, 500 people have died since the inquiry was set up. Has Mr Speaker had any indication from the Government that they will make a statement to the House this week to set out their response to this landmark report from a public inquiry that they themselves set up in 2017?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the right hon. Lady for her point of order and for notice of it. The whole House fully appreciates that this is an extremely important and very sad matter. She has raised it very effectively countless times in this Chamber, so I am not surprised by her point of order today. What is surprising is that I am able to give a straight answer to a point of order: I understand that the Government’s intention is to make an oral statement about the matter on Wednesday of this week. That is the information that I have, and I hope that it is accurate. If no such statement is forthcoming, I am sure that the right hon. Lady will waste no time in finding ways to pursue the very reasonable question that she has asked.

Installation of Telecommunications Infrastructure

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 15th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I am grateful to Mr Speaker for allowing this debate this evening on telecommunications infrastructure. I know it has been a busy day with the Budget, but my constituents in Hull and residents across the country are incredibly frustrated about this important issue. Today I want to address the crux of the problem, which is that there is no legal requirement for consultation and scant procedures for the putting up of telecommunication poles and digging up of pavements to install fibre optic cables in our communities.

Members across the House would undoubtedly be frustrated and concerned if they looked outside their window one morning to discover a telegraph pole erected at the end of their garden, outside their front gate or very close to their home without knowing anything about it. They would also be incredibly annoyed to discover there was absolutely nothing they could do about it, because the current legislation makes this situation completely permissible.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

Is the right hon. Lady aware that this issue affects not only the city of Hull, but the wider East Riding of Yorkshire? New infrastructure is to be welcomed, but does she agree that sensible and sensitive installation is essential?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. The reason that there is not that consultation at the moment is that the law was amended by the coalition Government in 2013, so that telegraph poles being erected by communications network operators for the expansion of fibre-to-the-premises broadband do not need planning permission under the Electronic Communications Code (Conditions and Restrictions) Regulations 2003 and the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015. Under the 2003 regulations, broadband street cabinets, new telegraph poles and overhead lines can be installed in any location without the need for prior approval from local planning authorities or consultation with residents.

[Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)]

I thank the right hon. Lady for bringing this matter to the House as it is a huge problem across Hyndburn and Haslingden. Does she agree that it is very frustrating when constituents see Openreach, for example, digging up the roads when these telegraph poles are being installed. The question is why the wires cannot go underground, rather than wires on telegraph poles spanning across their properties.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Absolutely, and I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention. It raises an important question: why can we not get this co-ordinated?

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the right hon. Lady on bringing this debate forward; she brings many important issues to the House, and this is another one. In Northern Ireland we have a clear planning process that involves the councils—in my case, Ards and North Down Borough Council—and the planning department will look at these things. There is also a role for the telecommunications firms. If they put telegraph poles outside anybody’s house, that person has a right to object, if they block their view or car access; it may even block their sightlines. We have community and council involvement, therefore. Does she agree that, to address these issues to the satisfaction of our constituents, about whom she is very concerned, we need either a change in legislation or clarification from the Minister?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I absolutely agree.

The changes brought in in 2013 were introduced for only five years, but they have now been extended indefinitely, allowing the situation we are all talking about today. I want to concentrate on what this means for my constituents.

Currently, residents in Hull are finding telegraph poles being erected around their properties, and sometimes on their properties, without any consultation process that allows them to raise their concerns. These poles are cheap, cumbersome and impact on the value and aesthetic worth of people’s properties. Poles are often built in close proximity to people’s driveways, in their gardens and outside their windows, often with wires dangling down from house to house in each direction.

One of my constituents has muscular dystrophy and in a few years they may, sadly, need to use a wheelchair. Returning from work one day, she discovered a telegraph pole had been erected outside her front gate, so close that if she ever does need to use a wheelchair to leave her house she will find it very difficult. Another constituent with a disability has had a pole erected in the middle of his driveway, making access to his property more difficult when getting his medication dropped off. An elderly constituent who has lived in their house for 51 years has contacted me, distressed, explaining that they do not want a neighbourhood overrun with telegraph poles. These people do not want to stand in the way of progress or stop people finding broadband that works for them; they just want a say in the place they call home.

It is not just residents who are affected, of course. A business in my community has had a telegraph pole placed on the corner of its commercial property, stopping articulated lorries gaining access to its warehouse, restricting its operations. Understandably, it complained and tried to have the pole moved. However, it was told by the company concerned, Connexin, that it was meeting all its legal requirements and nothing could be done. This is a 20,000 square foot business with a very large loading bay; it is not beyond the wit of man to facilitate an open discussion that would find an adequate position for these telegraph poles, but the company has no legislative obligation to consult so it is not doing so. Instead, it has fallen to my constituent to now have deliveries from around the world brought in on smaller vehicles at an extra cost. The business has been there for 11 years, and Connexin can force the business to change its operations without any consideration completely legally. That is unacceptable.

With no consultation with residents or the local planning authority, there is no consideration of the impact these poles can have on the daily lives of homeowners and the community.

[Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP)]

I fully understand what the right hon. Lady is saying, and I think we all have experience of this. In Scotland, the situation is slightly different in that there is a regulation 5, which we would think would give local councils the opportunity to say, “No, you cannot do this.” Regulation 5 can apply to conservation areas, grade 1 or category A listed buildings and ancient monuments, but at the end of the day the council makes recommendations to Openreach which it does not need to comply with. Everybody wants ultra-fast, superfast broadband, but they are not consulted and no information is given to them, and they come home at night to find somebody has put a telegraph pole outside their house.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Absolutely. Obviously, this is happening not just in my constituency, but up and down the land.

There is no requirement for companies to consider alternatives to poles, such as under-street cabling, which the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Sara Britcliffe) referred to, so there is no reason for them to engage with the additional cost or effort. They can simply do as they wish.

[Sara Britcliffe]

I thank the right hon. Lady for giving way again. A key point is that not all the altnet networks are bad—there are a few that are making it very difficult for residents. Our problem is that, when those few span our constituencies, there is no regulation for us to fall back on when we contact Ministers and this can just happen. The planning authorities want to do something when they see that the positions are inadequate, but there is no regulation for us to do anything about it.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady. I will come on to what I think should happen in terms of regulation.

I will talk about telecommunications in Hull, because we are unique and different from the rest of the UK. The Minister may be aware that, historically, we have had only one provider of telephone services and broadband. Since 2007, that company has been known as KCOM, previously Kingston Communications, with the white telephone boxes that we are famous for. For many years, my constituents contacted me because they were concerned that having a monopoly in the city made broadband more expensive compared with having a range of providers. We know how important choice and competition are, even when they are balanced against loyalty to a local company with a long history and lots of local jobs.

Understandably, people in Hull want to welcome new broadband companies. The Government know that, which is why Openreach and BT infrastructure in the rest of the UK has been extended to other service providers in recent years. According to new broadband providers in Hull, however, KCOM has put up barriers that prevent the sharing of the existing network infrastructure with other companies. I recently met Ofcom, which told me that it could not examine the situation with KCOM or even assess whether it was correct unless a formal complaint was received. If access to KCOM’s infrastructure is still a problem for new companies, and Ofcom has next-to-no power to proactively investigate that, we need to look at the regulator’s powers.

At the moment, it appears that there may be problems in getting access to KCOM’s communication network, so individual companies are choosing to put up their own telegraph poles. That means that these outdated infrastructure eyesores seem to be popping up on every street corner, which is upsetting residents who have no power to object or even advise and compromise on their placement. That is happening across Hull, from Kingswood to Endike Lane and Inglemire Lane, which leads to the constituency of the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). He represents Cottingham and has said that he also supports local people being consulted.

In Hull North alone, I have heard from multiple constituents on the Queensway, Tollymore Park, Frensham Close, Bradgate Park, Highgrove Way, Sleightholme Close, Gatwick Garth, Digby Garth, Honley Wood Close, Downhill Drive, Heatherwood Court, Callow Hill Drive, Waterdale, Marydene Drive, Catherine McAuley Close, Ella Street and the Avenues. All have had their lives disrupted and disturbed by what is happening. The lack of power and influence over what happens to their own properties and neighbourhoods is unacceptable.

A mother in my constituency has been told—not asked—that a pole will be erected at the end of her driveway. She describes jumping every time the doorbell detects movement and wondering if people have come to

“ruin our driveway and absolutely terrify my young children”,

who say to her,

“this is our home, not theirs”.

Another constituent says:

“For many years we have wanted the choice of internet provider, but never thought that would be at the expense of telegraph poles littering our neighbourhoods with no sensitivity to placement or consultation with residents”,

but they can do absolutely nothing about it. Even residents who have no intention of using the service that will be introduced by the new infrastructure can do nothing about it.

In Birnam Court in my constituency, every single resident has written to oppose the installation of the telegraph poles and cables, but still they are powerless to stop it. As one Hull resident put it:

“Installers are riding roughshod over residents’ wishes and there is no way to protest.”

So people inevitably complain, but they are told by the company that it has not broken its legal obligations, and that is the end of it. So they complain to Ofcom, and they are told that there is nothing Ofcom can do.

Connexin, the company erecting the telegraph poles that are aggravating most of my constituents, set up in the area a few years ago, stating:

“The people of Hull and the East Riding deserve better from their broadband supplier and every aspect of our new network has been designed with customer experience in mind.”

Parliamentary language is very important, so I will just politely say that that is utter tosh. Connexin is notoriously difficult to get a response from, despite me sending it numerous constituents’ complaints, and it has failed to deal with any of them properly. I finally heard from its offices yesterday, ahead of this debate, to offer to meet me to try and resolve the problem—it is very funny what raising an issue in the House of Commons can do to focus the minds of local companies. This avoidance strategy is completely unacceptable, and I urge anyone who has been affected by the erection of Connexin’s poles to write directly to its chief executive officer, Furqan Alamgir, with their complaints. His email is [e-mail].

Under the Government’s own legislation, the only legal requirement on these network operators is that they notify the local planning authority at least 28 days in advance, and then put up a sign to say that the telegraph pole is coming. That is it. The code of practice accompanying this free-for-all states that operators should initially offer to discuss the application of their proposed network deployment programme with relevant planning authorities, but the local planning authority has no power to stop their plans anyway. Customers and residents are not even considered worth mentioning in the code of practice.

[Jim Shannon]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am very conscious of the time, and I have got a few more things to say.

I should raise at this point that it is, again, quite opaque whether network operators are actually engaging properly with local authorities about their plans, as the code of practice meekly suggests. If Hull City Council has concerns or believes that the code of practice is not being followed, it can, I understand, complain directly to Ofcom, and then and only then will Ofcom investigate. There is not much teeth to the Government’s guidelines or the code of practice anyway, so it is unlikely that anything would change.

My ask of the Government is simple: repeal the 2013 amendment and make it a statutory requirement for communications network operators to apply for permission to the local planning authority on any proposed installation of telegraph poles, with a requirement for consultation with affected residents before any permissions are issued.

Last week I presented my planning permission for telecommunications telegraph pole installation petition to this House, which had a specific request for the Government to make it a statutory requirement, as I have just set out. I would also like to draw the Minister’s attention to my private Member’s Bill, which would also reform the law.

All the residents who contact me recognise that a modern telecoms infrastructure is needed for mobiles and fast broadband, especially if they want a choice of service providers. They are not being unreasonable or obstructive; all they are asking for is due consideration and common-sense solutions to the placing of new infrastructure.

I just want to put on record my thanks to the local Labour councillors who have been working with me, as they, too, have been inundated with complaints: Councillor Gary Wareing, Councillor Rosie Nicola, Councillor Steve Wilson, Councillor Abby Singh and Councillor Marjorie Brabazon. Although they are local councillors in Hull North, the issue, as the Minister will have heard tonight, goes right across the country. It has been raised from Hull to Bolton to Lincoln to Ipswich and beyond, and to Northern Ireland and to Scotland. My own petition has had hundreds of signatures, and I know that many other Members have similar petitions active at the moment too.

What these telecom firms often lack is local knowledge and some common sense. Local people, through a requirement for consultation, can provide that common sense for these companies free of charge. In the end, it will never be good business sense for these companies to annoy and aggravate local people and businesses that we assume they would welcome as potential customers. But this place clearly has a role in rectifying the mistakes of 2013 and in setting out some ground rules that require these companies to behave as they should, not just as they are allowed to get away with at the moment, and I hope the Minister will agree.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

The hon. Gentleman is right to acknowledge just how much progress has been made in Northern Ireland, where there is some of the best connectivity in the United Kingdom. I am proud that we have been able to make that investment, which is making a massive difference to his constituents. I will come to some of the points raised in interventions, which I hope will help hon. Members.

The electronic communications code provides the framework for operators to install infrastructure. Together with accompanying regulations, it sets out the conditions of how infrastructure must be installed in practice. The regulations require operators to share apparatus if possible and to install only the apparatus that they need. Although some of the issues are not entirely unique to Kingston upon Hull, they are particularly problematic there because of the monopolistic position of KCOM that the right hon. Lady raised. There is also a requirement to install lines underground, as has been raised, unless certain conditions apply.

The regulations set out how operators should engage with local planning authorities. They must notify them at least 28 days before installing a pole, to give them time to consider imposing any additional conditions to the proposed installation. They should engage with communities and other interested parties to engage with communities and other interested parties at that stage.

The final legal provision I would like to highlight is that the electronic communication code sets out who can object to and seek the removal of apparatus, and the circumstances in which they can do that. As well as the legal provisions, I draw the right hon. Lady’s attention to the cabinet siting and pole siting code of practice, which was agreed following the changes to legislation that gave greater permitted development rights and best practice for those installations. It encourages operators to site apparatus responsibly and engage proactively with local authorities and communities. I encourage all operators to adhere to that code of practice.

We have big digital ambitions, but we are making sure that we also support local communities along the way. Last year we made it easier for fixed line operators to share the use of existing poles—again, I think that there are some specific issues with KCOM—and underground ducts via provisions in the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Act 2022. That should help to reduce the need for new infrastructure, including poles, in future. We will carefully monitor the impact of the Act’s provisions as they start to have a real-world effect, as it gained Royal Assent only in December 2022 so it is still fairly early days.

My officials talk to Ofcom regularly about the electronic communications code and other telecoms issues. We are looking closely at how to ensure that all operators are aware of and adhering to their responsibilities under the code. We are also looking at whether steps are needed to educate local authorities on their role in the process, including the ability to escalate issues to Ofcom when needed. I note what the right hon. Lady said about her meeting with Ofcom. I will look into some of the issues that she raised about its stated ability to get further involved.

In addition to that engagement with Ofcom, officials in my Department have held meetings with representatives from KCOM and Connexin, to discuss some of the concerns raised with us about deployment in Hull. In addition, they have met with the local council to understand the issue from its perspective. We cannot interfere with individual commercial arrangements, but I have highlighted the obligations of all operators when deploying poles. Ofcom also regularly reviews the market, and last conducted a review into the Hull telecoms market in October 2021. I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for highlighting her concerns. I will ensure that they are relayed to Ofcom. I am pleased to have this chance to update her on the measures already in place, but there may be more that should be done in this area.

Let me turn to the right hon. Lady’s specific proposal to introduce a further layer of bureaucracy into the planning process. We are concerned that that would delay the roll-out of much better infrastructure and could deprive communities and businesses of the connectivity that they need. It will also increase deployment costs, which makes it not cost-effective for operators to deploy in some areas. As I mentioned, that risks creating a digital divide, which we are keen to avoid.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am not sure about the suggestion that either we get this rolled out, or we don’t because people have to be consulted. There could be a short period of consultation and engagement with local communities, but that would not mean that there would not be a roll-out of broadband, which we all want to see. This is not an either-or situation; we can both consult and see broadband rolled out.

[Julia Lopez]

I am not sure that is the case. We have consulted very closely, trying to make deployment easier, faster and more straightforward. I have concerns that adding an additional layer to the process would slow deployment. We have given the issue much consideration, particularly during the passage of the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Act 2022. I hope that legislation will encourage much more sharing of the infrastructure, so we do not have to see more Bills. Sharing infrastructure is a particular issue in Hull and I am happy to look into that in greater detail.

We believe that the current framework makes adequate provision for planning considerations, while allowing prospective deployment to happen at pace, promoting competition, increasing consumer choice and, crucially, helping to keep prices low.

I thank the right hon. Lady for bringing forward the debate and raising awareness of digital connectivity. I can assure her and the House that it is a Government priority, but I will also take away some of the legitimate concerns raised about specific operators during the debate. I will take up that conversation with Ofcom and see whether further work is needed in that regard.

Question put and agreed to.