Welsh Affairs

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Thursday 2nd March 2023 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies]

My right hon. Friend is tempting me here. Clearly, Wales should get its fair share of that—as Secretary of State for Wales, I am hardly going to disagree. On what that fair share is and how it is calculated, I do not have access to the exact detail yet, but he, as Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee, and I will certainly be taking a very strong interest.

I will come back to universities, which I think were raised by the hon. Member for Aberavon. Before I do, the hon. Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) made a very good point about the state of the national health service in Wales. If we are honest about it, we have all heard and dealt with constituents who have grave concerns. The fact that Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is back in special measures is proof positive that there is a problem and where there is a problem it needs to be acknowledged. Somebody in the Welsh Government needs to get on and deal with it. It was interesting that the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) in her summing up mentioned a lot of things, which I will come on to in a moment, but did not mention the national health service. Given that the Labour party says it has a plan for the national health service, it was surprising that she did not want to draw attention to her own party’s running of it in Wales, where it has been in charge for around 20 years.

The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake) made a very good point about depopulation, which I think would be shared in many rural areas. If we can get broadband rolled out in the way we want to, I believe it would help. We have seen a change in the way society works over the past three or four years, partly as a result of covid. Many more people will be able to work from home and that may be positive. He said that he did not have all the answers— I certainly do not, either. I hope he would recognise that growth deals that are being put together by local authorities in all areas across Wales hold part of the problems. He will know that in his area, tourism and agriculture are strong. Growth deals are being set up specifically to deal with that and to offer people careers rather than jobs, precisely because that is a widely recognised problem across the political spectrum. We want young people to be able to stay in their own areas, rather than having to go to the big cities to work.

The hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) made a powerful and insightful speech. She has spoken out on misogyny in sport and rugby before, including around 12 months ago and, unfortunately, not enough action was taken. Everyone will have listened carefully to what she said. She has spoken out on women’s issues in other areas than just sport, and I suspect she has had quite a lot of abuse on social media in the past for some of her comments when standing up for women’s rights. I fear that many women who have spoken out will probably get abuse on social media from cowardly people who probably would not look them in the eyes and say to them what they say online.

The hon. Lady knows that I have no locus in the WRU. After the allegations were made, I reached out to the WRU and asked for a meeting to discuss them. I met Nigel Walker briefly, who I find an impressive individual, but it was informal and I do not feel that we got down to address those issues. My office has been in touch with the WRU and I would be pleased to meet a little more formally and go through some of them. The hon. Lady is absolutely right that those people with complaints need them to be treated with anonymity and respect. I fear it may not just be rugby; many organisations probably have to deal with some of the issues that recently have been confronted.

The hon. Lady for Swansea West—[Interruption.] Do forgive me, I have not celebrated dydd gŵyl Dewi yet today. The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) was somewhat critical of Labour’s plan for HS2, which was put together around 2008-09 and was continued by the subsequent Conservative and coalition Governments. As I understand it, the reason that the Labour Government gave—

[Geraint Davies]

With all due respect, I was not critical of it as such. I said that we should get our fair share of the investment—the £5 billion. Will he support that? He is the Welsh Secretary—he should.

[David T. C. Davies]

I am not sure how the hon. Gentleman calculates that figure—we have discussed that before.

[Geraint Davies]

Five per cent. of £100 billion.

[David T. C. Davies]

I think that the current cost would be rather less than £100 billion for HS2. Also, it is being built over many years. If we took the £50 billion figure over 10 years, that is £5 billion a year. Five per cent. of that would be considerably less than the huge increase in funding already given to the Welsh Government by the UK Government—£2.5 billion of record-breaking funding.

[Geraint Davies]

rose—

[David T. C. Davies]

I will give way, but let me make one last point. It is an England-Wales project because Wales will benefit, particularly north Wales, from the faster connections via Crewe. That was always made clear, and I am not aware that the Labour Government said anything different.

[Geraint Davies]

Would the Secretary of State support the shovel-ready schemes already developed by Transport for Wales, which are worth £2.5 billion to be invested over 15 years—half the amount we should get? I raised that with the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman), this morning, who said that his officials would work with Transport for Wales. Would he support joint funding so that we can get that going rather than resisting all investment in Wales?

[David T. C. Davies]

I am aware of probably three schemes ongoing at the moment within the rail network enhancements pipeline project, which I hope will be brought to fruition shortly, but I support as much spending as possible on the railways in Wales.

I might be being discourteous to the shadow Secretary of State, because I promised to speak for about seven minutes. Let me quickly say, because it was of interest to the hon. Member for Swansea West, that on university research funding, I committed to go around all the eight universities in Wales as quickly as I could. I am currently doing that, and I think I am on about No. 5. I have been looking at what they have to offer in terms of research, to see the best of it and to bring everyone to an event in London to meet UK Research and Innovation so that we can get more UKRI funding into Wales. That is something that I am happy to update him about shortly.

The hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen Thompson) made a wonderful speech. He almost seemed to be apologetic about representing a non-Welsh constituency, but most of us in this Chamber are proud Unionists and we welcome hon. Members from all parts of the Union. He spoke about the fantastic character Archibald Hood, who is described in the book “From Rosewell to the Rhondda”. Clearly Mr Hood, 150 years ago, was making the most of the opportunities we have to move around the Union. Let me say tapadh leat, which I think is Scottish Gaelic for thank you, to the hon. Gentleman.

The hon. Member for Cardiff Central rightly acknowledged the huge bravery of the Ukrainian people, 6,000 of whom are in Wales. In Chepstow last week, I met Ukrainian constituents, as the hon. Lady has done—they are now our constituents. We say, “Croeso mawr i bob un ohonyn nhw.” They are all incredibly welcome in Wales. We hope that they have an opportunity to go back to their country at some point, but we are delighted that they are here at the moment.

The hon. Member made a point about the cost of living crisis. I will take a leaf out of my own book and say that we absolutely acknowledge it: there is a cost of living crisis. That is why we have been prioritising our help for pensioners by making sure that pensions, benefits and the minimum wage go up in line with inflation. We have been making payments of £900 to those who are on benefits, £300 to pensioners and £150 to those who are on disability benefits. We are spending £18 billion this winter to ensure that around half of people’s energy bills are being paid. What we certainly will not do is ban meal deals, because that would hit people in the pocket.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Wednesday 1st March 2023 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies]

I agree completely with my hon. Friend. I am sure that the 50,000 people who are in pain and on waiting lists at the moment would far rather see the £100 million that will be spent on expanding the Senedd being spent on delivering healthcare and reducing waiting lists in Wales.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that higher levels of poverty give rise to higher healthcare costs and higher absolute numbers of people needing healthcare, so how can he justify the fact that Wales does not get its 5% share of High Speed 2—£5 billion—and is losing enormous amounts of money from EU funding, which he promised would be provided, and thousands of jobs in Welsh universities? We need that productivity to alleviate poverty and to put less pressure on the NHS. It is his fault that those waiting lists are growing.

[David T. C. Davies]

I certainly do not recognise the figures that the hon. Gentleman has come up with on HS2. The fact is that the UK Government have replaced EU funding in full through the shared prosperity fund, the community ownership fund, the community renewal fund, levelling-up funds and much else besides. The UK Government have also made certain that £1.20 is delivered per head of population for NHS care in Wales, as opposed to £1 in England. It is very hard for him to explain why Wales receives more money to deliver healthcare and yet delivers lower standards.

Cost of Living Crisis: Wales

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Tuesday 19th July 2022 Westminster Hall

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Beth Winter), who emphasised the depth of inequality, despair and impoverishment in her constituency and across Wales due to the cost of living crisis and a long history of cuts that we have seen disproportionately in Wales.

We are talking about Wales, and it is worth remembering that Wales is poorer, sicker and older. That was already the case before the austerity cuts began to bite from 2010 onwards. Let us put this in context. Austerity cut public services and welfare, and Wales is disproportionately reliant on public service jobs, has more older people on welfare and all the rest of it. That was the starting point. We know, from a University of York study that was published by The BMJ, that something like 50,000 extra people across the UK died from austerity.

Then, of course, we had covid. Again, we had the background of a poorer, sicker and older nation, where we would have expected, therefore, a much higher death rate. In fact, the death rate above the five-year average was something like 13% in Wales and 20% in England, but of course the average was much higher to start with because we had a poorer and sicker nation. The lower death rate was through the good governance of Mark Drakeford and his Welsh Government.

We are now coming to a situation after having had those massive cuts. Let us face it: in Wales, we are operating at 70% of gross value added, so average wages are about 70% of the UK average. We are having cuts and pay freezes in a very difficult situation, so people are suffering more. We have had Brexit. I know that the Minister is a big fan of Brexit, but 60% of Welsh trade was with Europe. In England, it is more like 48%. The problems that we have had, including problems with the Northern Ireland protocol, are again disproportionately hitting Wales.

Take a typical example of a public sector worker, for instance a nurse who is the only breadwinner in a house in the valleys, or wherever it is. If there are pay freezes on public sector workers, that house is impoverished. We have all heard the sorts of cases that were just mentioned: children who hold back half their free school meal to eat in the evening, because they do not have any food at home; children washing their hair with washing-up liquid; people not having the lights on, and so on. We know from the Trussell Trust that there are now 14 million people in poverty. There are, I think, 2.6 million people using food banks in the UK—up a hundredfold—and the majority of people who use food banks have some level of disability.

There is a pressing case for the Government to act now, whether through indexing social security or the universal credit uplift. There is also a pressing case for doing something about rent, which is not talked about very much. We talk about energy and food, but the local housing allowance has not been indexed. For example, studies by the Bevan Foundation show that, in an online search of private rented accommodation in Wales, only about 1% fits in with the local housing allowance. People are therefore driven into squalid, Rachmanite living conditions—another terrible fact.

In his intervention, the Minister implied, “Whose money is this, anyway?” I suggest that not only have the cuts disproportionately hit Wales but, as he knows from our meeting last week with Professor Mark Barry, there has been a historical lack of investment in Wales—of getting our fair share to boost productivity, jobs and wealth, so that we can pay our way. Over the last couple of decades, rail enhancement investment has operated at about 1.5% of the UK total, and we have 5% of the population and 11% of the rail track. Looking forward, instead of at the historical legacy, if we take 2020 as the baseline, Wales is being promised £0.5 billion out of an England promise of £106 billion, including High Speed 2, which is outrageous. HS2 is north-south. It will help Scotland much more than Wales, yet Scotland is getting its fair Barnett consequential. If we got it—90% of the 5% population—it would be £4.6 billion.

The Minister knows from that meeting that there are plans on the drawing board for about £2 billion to £3 billion. That is about half the amount that we deserve—from now on, I suppose, the legacy—and could make a big difference in moving us towards net zero, in productivity, in speed and in getting people to relocate. The truth is that once HS2 starts running, we will be able to get from London to Manchester in one hour and 10 minutes instead of two hours and 10 minutes, but it will still take nearly three hours to get to Swansea, so where will companies put their investment? In the case of Virgin, the answer is to take it out of Swansea and put it into Manchester. If we want to go to Staffordshire, it will take 45 minutes instead of one hour and 45 minutes, so on top of the historical inequalities I have mentioned, that will hammer Wales again.

The Minister asks, “Who will pay?” The way to pay is to invest in the productivity and future of Wales through moving towards a green future. We have talked about the windfall tax. Let us be straightforward: the big five oil companies have made excess profits of $2 trillion in the past few decades. They were making those operating profits above costs, and then Putin invades Ukraine and we have a price hike. They have done nothing to earn that windfall profit. It is our money, which was paid out of the pockets of the travelling public, and it should be given back.

In Spain, the people are getting free public transport; in Germany, it is €9 for a month. If we did that with the windfall tax, everyone could go to work for cheaper. We could get investment in green public transportation much more quickly, such as hydrogen and electric, and do something innovative. We could provide the background for pay settlements, such as the rail disputes. Instead of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers being told, “You can have 3% and 10,000 job cuts; what are you going to do about it?”—and, as we would expect, a strike is provoked—we could encourage everyone to go on public transport so that we do not need cuts in jobs. There might be a change to jobs, but there would be no cuts, and with more investment, we would not have to ask for so much. We can all agree to that.

[David T. C. Davies]

If that is such a good idea, why are the Welsh Labour Government not doing it in Wales? They have the power to do so.

[Caroline Nokes (in the Chair)]

Order. I gently remind the Member that this is a debate about the cost of living in Wales, not transport.

[Geraint Davies]

I know that, yes. It is not the Welsh Government’s decision: we do not have the money to do that, and it is not devolved. The Exchequer runs UK plc; we all know that. We do not charge the windfall tax. The Welsh Government are not in a position to introduce a windfall tax or nationalise the oil companies, sadly, although they have done something about rail.

[David T. C. Davies]

The Welsh Labour Government could raise tax to do that, if they wanted to.

[Geraint Davies]

I am not talking about raising taxes; I am talking about taking back the money that has been stolen from the travelling public by oil companies. They did nothing to earn that money: it was simply that Putin invaded Ukraine, and they said, “We’ll put the price up, take the money and fill our pockets.” The Government belatedly took a small share of that money, and now they are going to give 90% of it back to drill for more oil, when what they should be doing is investing in scaling up things like organic batteries. Swansea University has identified that the renewable energy from wind farms is only put into the grid at breakfast time and teatime, and is saying, “Let’s use that wind, create hydrogen, and put that hydrogen in the gas grid”—which takes up to 40% of hydrogen, as used to be the case for coal gas. That would reduce the carbon footprint.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies]

I do not know whether the First Minister was at those meetings, but I imagine that somebody from the Welsh Government was. Does the hon. Lady know whether the First Minister was there, or did the First Minister send a representative? I do not know, but it would be interesting to find out, because the point is valid: the First Minister of Wales should have enough confidence in his Cabinet Ministers to know that they can go along and represent the Welsh Government at Cobra meetings, just as the UK Prime Minister does. Anyway, let us not go down that—

[Geraint Davies]

Will the Minister give way?

[David T. C. Davies]

Okay. I am only one page into my speech, but why not? The hon. Gentleman was honourable enough to give way.

[Geraint Davies]

The Minister’s basic proposition is that this cost of living crisis is some sort of global issue. Will he accept that the issue is about the level of underlying resilience before these global shocks occur? If the rate of growth under the Labour party had continued thereafter, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the average wage would be something like £13,000 better, so we would be in a much better place to take the shocks. Instead, we are impoverished by the Minister’s party.

[Caroline Nokes (in the Chair)]

Order. I remind hon. Members and the Minister that they should stick to the question.

Welsh Local Authorities

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Tuesday 15th March 2022 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (David T. C. Davies)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Sir Gary. I congratulate the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) and all other hon. Members in this debate because I find myself in the strange position of actually agreeing with much of what I have heard today, including much of what the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones) just said—until the slightly political points at the end.

Let me begin by making a serious point. The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth paid tribute to those council workers across Wales who worked 24 hours a day during the covid pandemic and, of course, during the floods that immediately preceded the first lockdown. I am sure all of us went out and saw what these amazing people were doing. I visited people who, as the hon. Member said, had worked literally 24-hour days filling sandbags for people during the floods and had come off other jobs to do that. We know about the unsung heroes, such as the road gritters and many others, who are out there and who will work for 24 hours when the chips are down and when we need it. I absolutely want to associate myself with all his comments about the wonderful people who work for our local authorities across Wales. We are indeed lucky to have people of that calibre working for us, and we should never take their services for granted. We thank them all.

Hon. Members may be surprised by this as well, but I pay tribute to all local councillors in Wales—not just the Labour ones, of course, but including them—who it has been my pleasure to work with in this role. One or two things that I wanted to say have been mentioned; as the hon. Members for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) and for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) said, what a fantastic arena Swansea Arena is—something that Swansea Council brought forward.

When I met Rob Stewart last week, he made it clear that the project was not just about him; there was a whole team behind him. But what a fantastic team it was. As I am sure hon. Members will agree, the moment someone walks in there, they see what an absolutely amazing building it is—it bowls them over. It will be a huge asset for Swansea and the whole of Wales, and I am pleased to have worked with those who played a part in bringing it about, and I congratulate Swansea Council.

I had better not say too much about the tidal lagoon project. We know that there were issues with the previous one. I believe that Rob Stewart is a very capable person. I do not want to say too much in the run-up to an election or my words will probably appear on his leaflets, but he is somebody to be taken seriously. These matters are not for me, but I am sure that anything he puts forward will be taken in that light.

Given that all of us agree that by and large we have very hardworking councillors, there has to be a question as to whether the Welsh Government might want to devolve further powers to local authorities over the coming years, particularly as the Corporate Joint Committees become legal entities and as the growth deal regions take on all sorts of extra responsibilities. All of us realise that centralising control is not a good thing, whether it is in Cardiff or Westminster, and feel that some of the services offered by local authorities might improve even further if local authorities were given even more responsibilities.

It is correct that local government in Wales and across the UK has been at the forefront of responding to the pandemic, leading from the front and co-ordinating the fight against the virus. We want to harness that leadership in our drive for economic recovery, improving local services and focusing economic growth on the industries of tomorrow. That is why it has been a privilege for me to be part of the growth deal projects, and see how local authorities of all sorts of different political dimensions and viewpoints are coming together to bring forward programmes and projects that can benefit the whole of Wales.

One hon. Member mentioned the extra money going into local authorities—I think it was the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi). I obviously welcome that, but, dare I say it, that was made possible only because of funding to Wales through the Welsh block grant of £18.4 billion a year on average over the next three years. It is one of the best ever funding settlements for the Welsh Government—in fact, the best ever. For our part, the UK Government recognise the value of local authorities in leading communities. We know and trust them to make the decisions that are best for their local areas, and we look forward to seeing local authorities put back in the driving seat over programmes, such as the levelling-up fund and the shared prosperity fund, about which details will be coming out shortly.

As I mentioned, we are working with local authorities and other partners in the four Welsh regions to deliver long-term investment through the city and growth deals. We are working with local areas on bespoke investments, and I remain hopeful of a positive announcement on freeports very soon. As hon. Members will know, £790 million is going into the four Welsh city and growth deals; of course, a lot of money is coming from the Welsh Government as well. We have enjoyed working with the Welsh Government and local authorities to kick-start economic growth.

We are seeing the deals produce results. As I think the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth mentioned, just two weeks ago, Cardiff Capital Region announced the purchase of Aberthaw Power Station, with a hugely exciting plan to turn the site into a centre for green energy. I had a very good discussion with Kellie Beirne about that just before the announcement was made. I look forward to seeing hundreds—perhaps thousands—of jobs being created in the industries of tomorrow as a result.

I have mentioned the fantastic Swansea Arena already. In north Wales, I look forward to visiting Bangor University later in the spring to look at the digital signalling processing centre, into which we have invested £3 million in groundbreaking technology to help secure and develop further investment in the regional digital economy. We are seeing the fruits of the growth deals coming to light, from improving tourism facilities at the world heritage site in the Dee Valley to building a new transport interchange at Porth in the Rhondda.

I believe the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) mentioned levelling-up deals. I think I am right in saying that there were three successful bids to the fund in the area, and I signed them off myself. I was surprised at criticism from elsewhere that there had been pork-barrel politics, because one of the only local authorities that did not get any of the levelling-up fund was my own in Monmouthshire—if there had been any pork-barrel politics going on, I had not been very clever at getting anything out of the barrel myself. Of course, in reality, local authorities put forward the projects, which were assessed by independent officials. I was pleased to sign them off and I hope I might get an invitation to come and see them when they are developed.

This is real devolution: empowering local places and making sure that devolution goes beyond Cardiff Bay. As a Government, we look forward to working closely with local authorities across Wales. I have mentioned some. We have not mentioned some of the Plaid Cymru local authorities. I would be pleased to meet many of those leaders to discuss growth deals with them, as well as the independents in mid Wales.

In Monmouthshire, I must mention my excellent council leader, Councillor Richard John, who has done such a superb job of leading Monmouthshire over the last two years. I could cite many achievements—I am sure that Labour councils could learn many things from how things are done in Monmouthshire, such as the superfast infrastructure. Monmouthshire is the only local authority in Wales to run a post office. Despite the fact that the funding formula seems to disbenefit rural areas, Monmouthshire has managed to keep its council tax rises down to manageable levels. That is not to underestimate the achievements of other local authorities across Wales.

[Geraint Davies]

On the point of levelling up and pork-barrel politics, will the Minister try to clarify the criteria for levelling-up grants? In the past, obviously, the EU funding was needs-based and focused on lifting productivity in areas of deprivation. We would all welcome more clarity so that there cannot be any accusations that money is just being given out for political reasons.

[David T. C. Davies]

I would be happy to write to the hon. Gentleman on that matter. The allocation was very much needs-based. The officials involved were completely independent and assessed bids against a series of criteria.

Muslim Community in Wales

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Wednesday 23rd February 2022 Westminster Hall

[David T. C. Davies]

We already have laws in place to protect people from discrimination or abuse, but people are breaking the law. That does not necessarily mean that the law is wrong or needs to be changed. Perhaps it needs to be enforced more, or perhaps the penalties need to be looked at. We need to be careful about any legislation that will have an impact on freedom of speech. I do not think that we can get to a point of equality and tolerance simply by saying to people that they are not allowed to express a view about something, be it be Palestine, Kashmir, the history of the crusades or whatever. Those are all things that people should be able to discuss.

[Geraint Davies]

Will the Minister give way?

[David T. C. Davies]

I do feel that I am getting slightly away from my responsibilities as a junior Minister in the Wales Office—I will probably get the sack tomorrow—but go on; I will take one more intervention.

[Geraint Davies]

I am sure that the Minister will accept that there are limits to freedom of speech. I am thinking in particular of the online incitement to racial hatred by groups that inspire hatred and division, such as Voice of Wales, which has been taken off YouTube and then came back on to it. Do we not need a balance between what is called freedom of speech and something that is damaging and corrupting to our society?

[David T. C. Davies]

I agree with the hon. Member: there are, and have to be, limits on freedom of speech in a civilised society. We cannot have people abusing it in order to incite violence or hatred against other groups, so in that sense, I agree.

I would like to bring this debate back to Wales and the Muslim community. I recognise that the Muslim community in Wales and elsewhere has faced intolerance and discrimination. In fact, that point was raised with me by the Ahmadiyya Muslims whom I met in Cardiff. They said to me that on occasion, when they have tried to get a taxi to their mosque, they were told by the driver that they would not be taken. The hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Afzal Khan) will probably know what I am getting at here. All of us, especially those of us in Government, must say that we will never tolerate anti-Muslim hatred in any form, and will seek to stamp it out wherever it occurs.

We have supported Tell MAMA with just over £4 million between 2016 and 2022 to monitor and combat anti-Muslim hatred. We have a proud tradition of religious tolerance in the law, and we have committed to creating a strong and integrated society in which prejudice is not tolerated. People must always be free to express their religious identity and to live without fear of harassment and crime because of it. We launched the places of worship scheme, which is designed to reduce the risk and impact of hate crime at places of worship and associated faith community centres, and we have provided funding for protective security measures, such as CCTV, fencing and intruder alarms, to places of worship and associated faith community centres that are vulnerable to hate crime. Some 241 grants worth £5 million have been awarded to places of worship across England and Wales, 84 of which were awarded to mosques.

We in the Wales Office have supported the work of the UK Government in bringing people from Afghanistan to the United Kingdom, including to Wales. The hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden), who has had to leave, would be able to describe being in touch with us in the Wales Office, and how our officials did everything they could to help in a small number of cases. Thousands of Afghans have supported NATO forces in Afghanistan in recent years, and we acknowledge the dangers posed to them and others as a result of the transition of power in that country. I am proud of the role that the UK Government have taken in supporting Afghan citizens, and the admittedly much smaller role that the Wales Office has played in supporting a few of those families. We will exceed our initial aim to resettle 5,000 people through the Afghan citizen resettlement scheme in the first year. In the four months since Operation Warm Welcome was launched, we have worked across 10 Government Departments, with devolved Administrations and with around 350 councils and local agencies, as well as with charities and volunteers.

I had slightly more time than I thought, but I have said most of what I want to say. In conclusion, this has been an example of the kind of positive debate we do not see enough of in the House of Commons. Broadly speaking, we are all basically in agreement. The hon. Member for Newport West began by talking about the enormous contribution that the Muslim community has made in Wales. She extolled the virtues of Newport. I absolutely agree with what she said.

All Members have spoken about the importance of making sure that Muslims in this country and in Wales do not face discrimination or hatred as a result of following their religion. I agree 100%, and am more than happy to work with any hon. Members in the House to that end. I make many visits to Wales. If any Members of Parliament from Wales wish to ensure that an invitation to another mosque comes to me—especially if food is involved—I am sure we will look very favourably on it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies]

I am happy to confirm that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already had discussions with Horizon about this matter. The announcement was deeply disappointing for us all and came on the back of Hitachi’s concerns, so I am told, about the covid situation and the Japanese economy. None the less, Wylfa is one of the best sites in the world at which to build a nuclear power station and I understand that Horizon has already been sounding out the possibility of the project going ahead with other developers.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

What discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on the comparative effectiveness of the (a) Development Bank of Wales and (b) high street banks in providing finance to business in Wales during the covid-19 outbreak.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (David T. C. Davies)]

High street banks have been at the forefront of lending to firms impacted by covid-19. They have provided support to Welsh firms through more than £1.1 billion-worth of loans under the Government’s bounce back loan scheme and £300 million of loans under the Government’s coronavirus business interruption loan scheme. There has also been an additional £100 million of lending through the Development Bank of Wales, which has been a useful contribution.

[Mr Speaker]

Let us head over to New York with Geraint Davies.

[Geraint Davies [V]]

Thank you very much from over here in Wales.

The Development Bank of Wales has been found by the Welsh Affairs Committee to be much more effective in the delivery of coronavirus loans to business than high streets banks, which have been found to be unresponsive, delayed and risk-averse, and not to understand local businesses. Will the Secretary of State and the Minister impress on the Chancellor the need to provide more funding for the Development Bank of Wales and to import this excellent idea into England to help all British business?

[David T. C. Davies]

I suppose it would not come as a great surprise to the hon. Gentleman, or to anyone who understands economics, as he does, that a high street bank is always going to be slightly more risk-averse than a bank backed by the UK Treasury. None the less, I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the figures I gave earlier, which show that around £1.4 billion has been lent to businesses in Wales via high street banks utilising Government schemes, and £100 million has come via the Development Bank of Wales. This is not some sort of competition; we welcome every single pound that has been lent to Welsh businesses, no matter where it has come from.

Welsh Affairs

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Thursday 27th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies]

Far be it from me to criticise the royal family; that would be a bit above my station. I was simply saying that the leader of Monmouthshire Council made it clear to me that he did not want me or anyone else going into the flooded area while the floodwaters were still there.

Let me move on to other matters. The Secretary of State for Wales and I have been thinking very carefully about the importance of ensuring that when Wales leaves the European Union, we continue working with the Welsh Government, the local authorities and businesses, so that Wales maintains its position at the heart of a strengthened United Kingdom. We are looking forward to negotiating the cross-border Welsh Marches growth deal, and to developing schemes for improving cross-border infrastructure.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) spoke about the importance of good broadband, and compared Pandy Tudur rather unfavourably with the Pitcairn Islands. Some £200 million has been promised by the UK Government to ensure that areas across the United Kingdom that are not properly connected become so, and we recognise the importance of that. Rail connectivity was mentioned by the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies). Again, I absolutely recognise the general point that he made, but I will have to get back to him on the specific point.

[Geraint Davies]

Will the Minister address the timetable issue?

[David T. C. Davies]

Yes, I will get back to the hon. Gentleman on that point. On the general issue of rail services, as he will know, we are spending £1.4 billion on rail infrastructure over the next control period. We could do even better for connectivity if we could persuade colleagues in the Welsh Government to support the M4 relief road, and to accept the borrowing that is being offered to them to build that much-needed road.

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) and the hon. Member for Cynon Valley, who all had in common an attempt to see who could use the most Welsh in the Chamber. Dydw i ddim yn siwr pwy sydd wedi ennill y wobr. I will not push my luck. I was on the Welsh Affairs Committee when we changed the rules to allow Welsh to be used at all times. It was right that we should do that. We now allow Welsh to be used, of course, in the Welsh Grand Committee, and it is quite right that we should do that as well. There is more to be done in the Chamber and around the House of Commons. I would be perfectly amenable to supporting further changes and reforms to allow Welsh to be used even more widely in the House.

Autumn Budget as it Relates to Wales

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Wednesday 7th February 2018 General Committees

[Geraint Davies]

Thank you, Mr Hanson. I will be brief, so I will speak in English. I say in passing that my mam-gu—my grandmother—had to wear the “Welsh Not”, which was introduced after the Blue Books. Children were required to pass on a “Welsh Not” to a child who spoke Welsh. They were beaten at the end of the day, and she was beaten at the end of every day because she was very religious and did not want to pass on the “Welsh Not”.

I thought I would also mention, on the centenary of women’s suffrage, an Emily—not Emily Davison or Emmeline Pankhurst, but Emily Phipps. She was one of the 17 women who stood 100 years ago, and she was in fact from the Swansea area. She hid in a cave in the Gower to avoid the census, as a protest.

[David T. C. Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Geraint Davies]

I am very short on time, but I will give way.

Leaving the EU: Wales

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Tuesday 25th October 2016 Westminster Hall

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Britain has been terrorised by clowns, and we now know that their ringleader is a peroxide blonde with a German name and a red nose masquerading as the Foreign Secretary. He promised a mixture of lower costs, market access and lower migration, but we are obviously going to get higher costs, which is why the deficit reduction plan has been torn up, no market access—it sounds like it will be a hard Brexit—and increasing migration, as ever. Boris said that we could have our EU cake and eat it, but Donald Tusk has said that all we will get is salt and vinegar.

The referendum took place immediately after the Welsh Assembly elections, so the Welsh people did not have time to contemplate all the ramifications of Brexit on their grants, and 16-year-olds and people living abroad were not allowed to vote. It is now coming home to us that we face the triple whammy that I mentioned earlier. Wales starts from a position of having something like 70% of UK GDP per head. As the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) said, 200,000 people who rely on EU trade—25,000 of them are in Swansea bay—face tariffs.

There is enormous uncertainty. We hear today that the promised electrification to Swansea may not proceed, and we do not know what is happening about the lagoon or the Swansea city deal. Tariffs are going up, and companies such as Nissan want compensation. It is like someone going to a shop and buying a mobile phone that they are told has a colour picture, but when they get home they find it is black and white. In other words, if the promises that were made were not a reasonable representation of the future—the falling pound, the loss of investment and the loss of jobs—the British and Welsh people deserve a referendum on the exit package before we trigger article 50. Article 50 should not be triggered until something like next October.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the fall in the pound has been excellent for exporters?

[Geraint Davies]

I assume that the fall in the pound to a 30-year low was designed to make Polish workers better off when moving abroad. The weak pound is a nightmare that will generate huge inflation in Britain. People will not be able to go on holiday, except on the £14 visa. If the hon. Gentleman thinks that, he should have said before the referendum, “We are fighting for a lower pound and less investment, and we are ripping up our deficit strategy.” In fact, the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams), who has now left the Chamber, seems to think that we should have £1 billion less, because we are wasting our money—so much for representing Wales. Last week when I asked the Minister in Question Time about the “body blow” of Brexit, he said simply that Swansea had voted for it, as if to say, “Well, it’s their own fault—like it or lump it.”

In reality, we need support where it is most necessary, and we need promises from the Minister to ensure that funding is sustained and that we still have the city deal, the lagoon and the electrification. We need a helping hand to succeed in difficult days. If possible, we should also have another crack at this with an exit package referendum, so that people can have a say on what they get and whether they want to go ahead. They have said that they want to go ahead in principle, but in practice is a hard Brexit what they wanted? No.

Draft Wales Bill (Morning sitting)

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[David T. C. Davies]

Thank you, Mr Owen. If I may, I will continue not so much on Select Committees, because that was a side issue, but on the overall issue of scrutiny. A lot of evidence came to us from people who were basically calling for there to be more Welsh Assembly Members, and they included the Speaker of the Assembly. I want to pick up on that, because one thing that I said when I campaigned against the Assembly in the late 1990s was that it would be a case of 60 people doing a job that was previously done by three—then, of course, we had two junior Ministers. In one sense, I got that one wrong, as we all did, because of course in Parliament there are 1,400 people who can scrutinise legislation: Members of the House of Lords and Members of the House of Commons. I think that in the Welsh Assembly there are 13 Ministers and junior Ministers, which leaves 47 people, or thereabouts, who can actually scrutinise legislation. That clearly puts them at a disadvantage, and various people have suggested various solutions to the problem over the years.

One suggested solution was that scrutiny could be conducted by the Welsh Grand Committee or even by the Welsh Affairs Committee. I would not mind putting myself forward for such a role, but in reality it would be completely politically unacceptable for Members of Parliament to scrutinise Welsh Assembly legislation.

Another solution that has been offered is some kind of Ty’r Arglwyddi—a Welsh House of Lords—but again that would be politically very difficult to get through and would involve huge cost, so people have started talking about more Assembly Members. That was the solution put to us in the evidence we took. I believe that Rosemary Butler mentioned a figure of 80 to 100 Assembly Members—I do not want to put words in her mouth. David Melding said something similar. We were definitely being told by one witness after another that we needed between 80 and 120 Assembly Members to do the job, rather than 60, but I think all of them recognised that that would be a very difficult sell to the public, so respectfully I want to put forward an alternative solution, based on the thought that, assuming this Bill goes through in some form, the Assembly will have the extra powers and there will be a need for a much higher level of scrutiny than there is currently.

I think there is an obvious solution. We have 22 local authorities. I believe that those local authorities could easily send four members, based on some sort of party balance, to sit in the chamber of the Welsh Assembly—perhaps on one day a month. They could carry out good scrutiny of the legislation that is being passed. They would have a democratic mandate to do that because they would all be elected. They would have the expertise to do it because local authority members often carry out the functions of legislation passed by the Welsh Assembly, particularly in education and social services, and they will clearly be in a position to know what will work and what will not work. I am not suggesting for one moment that local councillors should be able to block or overturn legislation, but they could have a role in forcing the Assembly to think again and add amendments.

[Geraint Davies]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that in such a model there would be a tendency for more money to go towards local authorities and for less money to go towards health?

[David T. C. Davies]

There would clearly be pressure from local authority members to reconsider the local government funding formula, and I assume that members from areas such as Brecon and Monmouth would want to do that because, despite the Minister giving extra money to the Welsh Assembly, areas such as Monmouthshire are seeing a huge cut in funding, and there is absolutely no reason for that. Brecon is even worse, because I believe that about 4%—

Health

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Monday 9th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

Living in and representing a constituency on the border has given me a unique insight into the different systems that have now grown up in the NHS in Wales and the NHS in England. One thing has become absolutely clear—not just to me but to any independent organisation that has looked into this—and it is that the standards of care being delivered by this coalition Government are far higher in England than they are in Wales, where the NHS is run by members of the Labour party.

The reality is that, judged on virtually any single indicator that one would care to look at, standards of treatment are better in England than they are in Wales. The waiting times for cancer have not been met in Wales since 2008; the four-hour accident and emergency target has not been met in Wales since 2009; the ambulance response times targets have not been met in Wales for 21 months; and in Wales the funding for the NHS from Labour, which claims to be the party of the NHS, has been cut by 8% while NHS funding has been ring-fenced in England.

That has led to all sorts of situations. For example, an Opposition Member talked earlier about cancer in England. In England, of those people being diagnosed with cancer less than 2% have to wait longer than six weeks for their diagnosis, while in Wales 42% of people being diagnosed with cancer have to wait longer than six weeks to receive a diagnosis. The treatment times are also different; in Wales, people wait around 26 weeks, whereas in England the wait is just 16 weeks.

Behind these dreadful statistics are a range of human stories. I was grateful to the Secretary of State for Health for allowing me to meet him with a constituent of mine, Mariana Robinson. She had been trying unsuccessfully to get treated in Wales for months and there was absolutely no interest in helping her. She wanted to be treated in England; she was one of many people who would rather be treated by this coalition Government in England than by the NHS in Wales. Finally, after a great deal of correspondence and after receiving advice from the Secretary of State in London, the NHS in Wales has finally relented in this instance, and Mariana will now be treated in Bristol. I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his help.

Even this afternoon, while I was waiting to speak, I had yet two more e-mails from people who are totally dissatisfied with the treatment they are receiving in Wales at the moment and who would be prefer to be treated in England. I was contacted by an 88-year-old veteran who had served in the Korean war in the Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Navy. He is in constant pain at the moment and unable to sleep because of a problem with wisdom teeth. He has been told that he will have to wait nine months for treatment in Wales. I do not believe that such a thing would be allowed to happen in England, but he has been told that he cannot seek any treatment in England; he has no right to transfer his health care to a place where it can be provided more efficiently.

Labour Members talked about the privatisation of the NHS. The Conservative party will never privatise the NHS; we have always believed that treatment should be free at the point of service. It is members of Labour in Wales who are responsible for supporting private health care, because they are putting patients in Wales in a situation where the only chance they have of being treated is to go and seek private health care. The 88-year-old veteran of the Korean war was told that if he wanted to have something done about the constant pain he is suffering, he would have to go private.

I was also contacted today by a lady, the retired head teacher of a school in my constituency, who found a lump in her breast. She expected to be seen by someone almost immediately, as she would have been in England, but she was told that the first appointment she will have will be some time in late August.

That is the reality of what is happening in Wales under a Labour-run NHS, and the Leader of the Opposition has said that we should “take lessons”—this is to quote him—from how the NHS is being run in Wales and try to implement them in England. My message today is to warn everyone, particularly Government Members, not to let these people be in charge of the NHS, because what we will end up with in England is longer waiting lists, slower ambulance response times, people not being diagnosed properly and no cancer drugs. Apparently, 150 people in Wales have died while waiting for heart treatment. It is an absolutely disgraceful situation.

I have talked to Government Members about a suggestion that I made in relation to the Government of Wales Bill, which is to let these people put their money where their mouth is. If they think they are doing a good job with the NHS in Wales, they should allow patients in Wales and England to opt to go wherever they want to for treatment. At the moment, we have two totally separate NHS systems, so patients in Wales do not have the right to access treatment in England and, of course, patients in England could not go to Wales. A lot of patients in Wales want to be treated in England. I do not believe there are any patients in England who would want to be treated by the Labour-run NHS, but perhaps there are some out there who fancy waiting longer to be diagnosed and then waiting longer again to get the treatment that they have a right to expect.

Let us see Opposition Members supporting a change to legislation that would allow patients in England to be treated in Wales, with the money required being added to the block grant given by the Government to the Welsh Assembly every year, and patients in Wales who want to be treated in England having the right to access that treatment in England, with the money required being deducted from the block grant that is handed over to the Labour party in Wales every single year. And let us see the direction of movement, because I know that an enormous number of people will immediately opt for the lower waiting times, the better diagnosis and the wider access to drugs that are available to people in England.

[Geraint Davies]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there are only 3 million people in Wales, and that when we compare Wales with a lot of the English regions and hospitals we do just as well? In London, we obviously have international centres of excellence. In Wales, we spend more cash per head. There is a sparser population and more nurses per 1,000 people, and we have better results on cancer than elsewhere, so there is a mixed picture. He is being completely political and undermining the morale of people working in the health service in his constituency; it is disgraceful.

[David T. C. Davies]

It is not a mixed picture at all and we should be very clear about that. People wait longer for treatment in Wales than they do in England. People wait longer to be diagnosed in Wales than they do in England. People wait longer for an ambulance in Wales than they do in England. Money for the NHS is being cut in Wales and it is being ring-fenced in England, because the NHS will be a priority.

The real disgrace is that Labour Members have always prided themselves on being the party of the NHS and have gone out of their way to do so. Because they have that reputation, they know that in Wales, and possibly in England too if they ever end up running things, they can get away with making cuts and with cosying up to the unions because they feel that people will trust them.

I say to anyone independent and impartial who wants to know what it would be like for NHS patients if Labour Members ever get into government, they should look at what is happening in Wales right now.

Housing Benefit (Wales)

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Thursday 1st May 2014 Westminster Hall

[David T. C. Davies]

It does hurt. However, I think the Select Committee worked well. The issue was potentially controversial, yet we managed to get a certain amount of agreement, some of which the Government will have to answer. I welcome the fact that the Select Committee, politically divided as it is, can work so well together, and I am grateful to the Committee members here today.

One thing that I think we can all agree on is that the cost of housing benefit is unsustainable at the moment and that changes must be made, although we may differ about how those changes should be made, what their impact will be and how people affected can be helped.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that 70% of the growth in housing benefit costs, which have doubled to about £20 billion in the past 10 years, is due to private sector rents and that the strategic response should be house building rather than clubbing the poor?

[David T. C. Davies]

I am trying to stick to the facts as I saw them on the Select Committee. To be fair, the first fact that the hon. Gentleman presented is correct. Personally, I agree with him that house building is one solution. In Wales, that is obviously a devolved responsibility for the Welsh Assembly. Hopefully, the hon. Gentleman and I agree that the Welsh Assembly could and should be doing a lot more to increase house building within Wales. The costs at the moment are about £25 billion a year. About 250,000 people in Wales receive housing benefit—about 8% of the population.

The Committee focused on two areas of Government policy. The first is the changes related to under-occupancy in the social rented sector, sometimes called the spare room subsidy and at other times referred to—incorrectly, in my view—as the bedroom tax. The other is the move towards direct payments, which also raised concerns across political parties. We took a lot of evidence from various witnesses, including the housing associations, representatives of landlords and the TaxPayers Alliance, which made an interesting contribution and which I hope is welcomed back to Select Committees in future.

The policy that we discussed came into force in April 2013, but it is probably worth mentioning that the same rules had been introduced for the private sector in 1989 and re-emphasised by changes made to housing allowances by the last Labour Government in 2008, so it was not as new as people might have thought. As all Members here will know, tenants had their housing benefit reduced by 14%, an average of about £12 a week in Wales, for having one extra bedroom, and by 25% for having two extra bedrooms.

At the time of the report, the Government estimated that 40,000 tenants in Wales lived in households with one or more excess rooms, representing 40% of those eligible to be affected. That was the highest proportion of any region in the United Kingdom, so we would like the Minister to provide us with any updated figures that he has on how many working-age tenants of social housing in Wales continue to live in properties with excess rooms and how many have been successful in downsizing.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies]

I had better not get into a conversation across the room about it, but that figure would certainly be worrying. It could be even worse in Wales, anyway.

As I am about to mention, one concern of ours was that Wales’s rurality and the lack of available housing there will make the issue much harder to deal with there than in London. Although personally, I absolutely support what the Government are doing, as I shall say at the end, I recognise that a tailored approach may be needed to the different problems that may arise in different areas.

[Geraint Davies]

The numbers are that some 40,000 people are affected in Wales, against about 400 units that can take just one person. In other words, this is not a strategy to help occupancy levels; it is simply an attack on the poor, who have nowhere to go.

[David T. C. Davies]

I do not accept that it is an attack on the poor.

--- Later in debate ---

[Geraint Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[David T. C. Davies]

Yes, but one of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues made the point earlier that everyone wanted to speak in the debate, and another dropped a hint about my concluding in a moment, which I was about to do. I will give way one last time, but then conclude, so that the hon. Gentleman and others can entertain us.

[Geraint Davies]

The point is consistently made, “Well, Labour did it in the private sector so why can’t we do it in the public sector?” The reality is that the market delivers a large number of flats for single people because there is a demand, but the public sector has been focused on units with two or three bedrooms for families with children. It is simply not appropriate to say that the measure should be force fed to the public sector. There is nowhere to move the people to.

[David T. C. Davies]

I am not sure that I would accept that argument, but I am grateful that, in signing the report, the hon. Gentleman accepted the fact that the current situation is completely unsustainable. We cannot afford to go on doing what we have been doing. That was agreed by all members of the Committee in the report. He may have alternatives in mind, which he will want to put forward in a minute.

I thank the hon. Gentleman and all members of the Committee for the way in which we dealt with a potentially controversial issue and for coming up with a unanimous report. I look forward to the Minister furnishing us with answers. I should put on the record that I am not trying to duck any responsibility: speaking in a personal capacity, I support Government policy on this issue absolutely. I take full responsibility for the policy. I always believe that there is room for improvement in anything that any Government do and the points I have made should be seen in that light. But, personally, as Member of Parliament for Monmouth, I support the Government and look forward to the Minister’s response.

Wales Bill

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Monday 31st March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb). It is interesting that he should mention Ukraine at a time when Victor Yanukovych is recommending referendums across Ukraine for more autonomy for its regions.

The Bill is, at best, a pig’s breakfast, but when there is nothing else on the table I guess that the parties will coalesce around it. To be fair, one reason why it is a pig’s breakfast is that the constitutional settlement across the United Kingdom is diverse. The settlements in Northern Ireland, London and Wales—

[David T. C. Davies]

rose—

[Geraint Davies]

I am coming to Monmouth in a moment—and Scotland are very different. It is worth bearing in mind that it might not be timely to make concrete decisions when we do not know the verdict of the Scottish people on becoming independent. We do not know whether that decision will gather pace for the devolutionary process in Wales.

[David T. C. Davies]

I just wondered whether the hon. Gentleman could clarify whether the Bill is a dog’s breakfast or a pig’s ear. I have never heard of a pig’s breakfast before.

[Geraint Davies]

It is a new constitutional phenomenon that I have just introduced. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will delight in it, being a person who indulges in that sort of thing.

If I may reference Scotland for a moment, rational and emotional powers are at play. There are people who thought that Scottish independence was going to go down the tube because of currency, the EU and inward investment, but now, of course, the wind is blowing in a different direction. The people of Scotland feel that they are being told that they cannot live without us and there are the emotions of divorce, so there is a mixture of rational economic argument and emotion. The feeling in Wales is that, rather than facing years and years of Tory austerity, we want to decide our own thing. The reality is that if Scotland leaves the UK we will end up with more Conservative Governments, because of the residual demography, and that will change the appetite for devolution.

Plaid Cymru would obviously like Wales to go down the road of independence and it sees this as a stepping stone. It talks about fair deals and fair funding for Wales even in the knowledge—this is an important point on what is behind the Tory agenda, too—that the difference between taxes raised versus expenditure in Wales is about £15 billion. The Conservative plot is to reduce the number of Welsh MPs, give borrowing and tax raising powers to Wales and forget about giving Wales its fair share of both revenue and capital. In the case of Scotland, the difference, coincidently, is also about £15 billion, but it currently makes up that difference in oil.

We therefore have a situation where it is convenient for everybody to go along this path, but the people of Wales want fair funding now. What that means in relation to the Barnett formula, as has been mentioned, is an extra £300 million a year. Wales should have the same needs-based formula as the English regions. It is not difficult to work that out, so that should just move forward.

With regard to capital, like other parts of Britain outside London and the south-east, Wales gets a small fraction of the investment per head that London gets—London gets about £5,000 per head and Wales gets about £500 per head. That is a problem for everyone outside London. If we migrated some of that investment outside London, we could put pressure on the system to make it more balanced. Britain is quite unusual in that respect. In Germany, for example, Berlin does not dominate Munich or Dusseldorf, so there is no necessity for that balancing.

If the response in Wales is, “Well, we are not getting enough money to do our own thing, so we will have to borrow it,” who will pay for that borrowing? That is the real fear, because there is no money on the table for that. Then there is the false analysis that the borrowing needs to be hypothecated against an income stream from income tax or other taxes, and that the amount of borrowing should be determined by the size of those streams. Frankly, that is just false. It is not the case that in order to justify more borrowing we need more income tax devolution. It is the case that the amount of money Wales will get in future, as the Secretary of State argues, will be broadly the same; it will not be distorted by this method.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) and I fear that we will end up with less money over time because the tax take per penny of income tax is 70% of what it is in England. If we assume for a moment that the global amount of money remains the same, then where does the extra money for paying back the borrowing come from? Well, it comes from nowhere. The reality is that the money would be paid back by top-slicing revenue, which means top-slicing the amount of money for services. That is what will happen if Wales does not get its fair share of UK funding.

We have already seen the signs and symptoms of the stealthy stranglehold that the Tories want to put on Wales, with the recent U-turns on the valleys lines. All of a sudden we hear, “Here you are. You can borrow some money.” A moment ago there was going to be electrification from Paddington to Cardiff and then through to Swansea, including the valleys, but all of a sudden we are told, “Well, the small print states that the Welsh Assembly has to do that, and it can do that by borrowing.” In fact, the commitment to go through to Swansea is not even fulfilled. The Government said that they would electrify the line from Paddington to Cardiff and then from Bridgend to Swansea, but they will not do the bit in the middle. If the Welsh Assembly Government say that they will not do that because they have another priority, which they might have, as is their right, we will have a bit in the middle that is not electrified, and that is not electrification through to Swansea, so the Government have broken their word.

Cost of Living

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Tuesday 14th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Geraint Davies]

Obviously, I disagree with that. I do not agree with a referendum, but if the overwhelming majority of people in Britain want one, I accept that we should have one. I am simply saying that the case for a referendum has been whipped up because of the Conservatives’ fear of UKIP. They have fed it red meat, and it is coming back for more.

It is the same with immigration. Everyone is going, “Oh no, there’s too much immigration. It’s terrible, isn’t it?” However, immigration was part of the reason for our economic growth. We prematurely let in some of the people from Poland who would have been able to come here anyway, and meanwhile Germany is saying that it needs more immigrants to pay for the generation that is growing old. We obviously need to manage immigration properly and carefully, but we should consider that 6% of immigrants are on benefits compared with 16% of indigenous people.

We are providing ammunition for people to blame immigrants, and what was in the Queen’s Speech? Private landlords and health providers will have to find out whether someone is an immigrant and whether they are legal. What will be the easiest test of that? “Are you white or are you black?” It is institutional racism. We are feeding the UKIP voters by saying, “The austerity problems aren’t Tory austerity problems, they’re because of all the immigrants.” Is that helping anyone and creating a united and strong Britain with a one nation future? No, it is creating a weak, divided nation of people who are being crushed by the Tories, and the poorest are blaming the immigrants. It stinks.

[David T. C. Davies]

rose—

[Richard Graham]

rose—

[Geraint Davies]

I had better give way to the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), because he is likely to say something more ridiculous, as a fruitcake.

[David T. C. Davies]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, not least because I am married to an immigrant and fully support the Government’s policies.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned a statistic, but 100% of indigenous people in Britain are entitled to receive benefits. What percentages of those who have emigrated here are entitled to receive them? I do not know, but it is much lower than 100%, so the statistic that he gave is inaccurate.

[Geraint Davies]

I certainly do not accept that. My basic point about the cost of living, which is what we are talking about, is that the bottom 10% of people in Britain spend 37% of their money on food, energy and housing costs, whereas for the top 10% it is less than half that proportion at 17%. As basic costs escalate, benefits are squeezed and the overall amount of money that people have is crushed, including their working tax credit and the like, and the people right at the bottom can barely survive while the people at the top are laughing. It is all very well saying that the rich are paying more, but the wages of the top 10% have gone up by 11% in the past two years.

I am not even talking about the 5% tax giveaway, but what a laugh that is, with the Government saying, “Oh, we’ll raise more from a 45p rate than a 50p rate.” People on the top incomes can move their income between tax years, so that is why there will be a lower take. There will be a behavioural change. If the 50p rate was ongoing, we would raise more. Indeed, some people already pay 50%, because those who pay 40% also pay 12% in national insurance, so their marginal rate is already 52%. The only difference is that they do not have accountants. It stinks. The reckless bankers, who were two-thirds responsible for the deficit in 2010, are being rewarded in their pay packets while the poorest are being squeezed and we are giving a bit to the squeezed middle.

Food Banks (Wales)

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Tuesday 12th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[David T. C. Davies]

Mrs Riordan, my apologies.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the 50% tax cut for millionaires several times. That was introduced to increase the amount of revenue that the Government have, and it was certainly not put in place during the previous Government.

The reality is that there is poverty in the whole United Kingdom; there always has been and I assume that there probably always will be. The Government have an enormous problem dealing with the economy at the moment, as a result of the deficit and debt that they inherited when they took over in 2010.

[Geraint Davies]

The hon. Gentleman loosely referred to the relationship between local government and food banks. Does he accept that the Welsh Government, by paying for the 20% cut that will be imposed in England on council tax, which would cost the average person on housing benefit in Wales some £5, have done a lot to try to stem the flow of people having to go to food banks, and have put money back into the pockets of the poorest at a time when his Government are taking money out of their pockets?

[David T. C. Davies]

The Government are not taking money out of the pockets of anyone that they do not have to. The people whose pockets have been picked most under this Government are those in the very wealthy bracket, who are now paying more, proportionately, of total tax revenue than they were under the previous Government. I do not follow the hon. Gentleman’s question.

I have already said that there is a huge problem with council tax in Wales. In Monmouthshire, where we have a food bank, council tax has risen more than anywhere in the whole of Wales. It has risen by more than virtually anywhere else in the entire country. Monmouthshire receives less funding per head than any other local authority in Wales, by quite a long way.

The hon. Member for Cardiff West mentioned the economy, which of course is crucial in this regard. He talked about the forces of global capitalism. I was struck by the fact that the economic problems of the previous Government were always said to be the fault of the invisible hand of global capitalism, which perhaps the hon. Gentleman does not support, although I thought that most members of his party these days did. Yet the economic problems that we now face are apparently nothing to do with the previous Government and nothing to do with global capitalism, but all down to the policies being followed at the moment. That is incorrect.

The problems that we have are simple. We owe £1 trillion on the books and probably the same amount again in figures that are kept off the books—public sector pensions, private finance initiatives, and so on—and we have to find a way of paying it back. Instead of paying it back at the moment, we are borrowing £120 billion a year from the banks.

I listened to the hon. Gentleman talk passionately about poverty, and we had more crocodile tears than in the Limpopo valley of South Africa, where 24,000 crocodiles escaped from a farm last week, according to the press. We did not hear the hon. Gentleman mention one single thing that he wanted to do about any of this—not one solution.

The solution is simple. We need to create the conditions that will allow growth, prosperity and jobs to be created in this country. We will not do it by borrowing money, levying higher taxes on people or printing money. We will do it by getting the deficit under control and starting to pay back some of the enormous national debt, which was created by Labour Members. That is how we will create growth in this country. That is what the Government are doing, and they have my 100% support.

Inward Investment (Wales)

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Thursday 29th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I warmly welcome the decision to extend electrification from Cardiff to Swansea, which we recommended in our report. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that what we need in Swansea, as in Cardiff, is super-connectivity, because we want a level playing field in south Wales, which has one economy? Will he, like me, press the Government to ensure that we are up and running in the Swansea city region, as well as in Cardiff, to achieve economic growth?

[David T. C. Davies]

The Swansea bay region would be an excellent place to invest. The Government are doing a huge amount to support better infrastructure, including IT infrastructure, across the whole of Wales. Although I look forward to developments that will increase broadband speeds in cities such as Swansea, Cardiff and Newport, we have more to do to ensure that people in rural areas such as Monmouthshire are able to get some sort of broadband.

[Geraint Davies]

It is important that we have Swansea city hub super-connectivity before broadband in rural Monmouthshire.

[David T. C. Davies]

I note what the hon. Gentleman says from a sedentary position, but let me turn to the Severn bridge, because that affects all of us in south Wales. Our report shows that little can be done until the original amount that was agreed with Severn River Crossing is paid off, which is expected to happen in 2018. Until then, there will always be inflation-busting increases in charges on the Severn bridge because that is set according to a formula at a certain time of year. There is absolutely nothing that can be done about that because it is a matter of commercial law.

[Geraint Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[David T. C. Davies]

I will, but may I finish my point first, because I think that the hon. Gentleman will be likely to agree with me?

After 2018, all bets are off, and several things could happen when the money is paid off. The Government will no longer have to pay VAT so, at a stroke, 20% could be taken off the charges. They could decide to get rid of tolls and fund the maintenance themselves, although that is unlikely, because I have been given an inkling of the cost of maintaining two large bridges over an estuary—it is phenomenal. I do not have the figures to hand, but we worked out that we would need to charge at least one third of the current toll simply to cover maintenance costs, and the Government might want to take a little more just in case it is necessary to build a third bridge in the future. However, there is no doubt that there could be a huge cut in the tolls after 2018, when Severn River Crossing’s charges have been met.

At the same time, the Welsh Assembly Government are loudly demanding control over both bridges, although one is entirely in England, which seems to have escaped their attention. However, they are being rather silent about what they would do to the tolls if they were put in charge. We need some transparency. There was a lot of anger in my constituency, and probably throughout south Wales, when the latest toll increases were announced, and I believe that some of that anger could be assuaged if we had more transparency about what will happen.

I was disappointed when we were informed by one of the Minister’s colleagues in government that there was unlikely to be any decrease in charges whatsoever because of extra costs—the Committee was told that they were several hundred million pounds, but I believe that they are now around £112 million—that the Government want to recoup. I do not know what those costs are, and the first I heard of them was when the evidence was given to the Committee. We were told nothing about that when the inquiry took place, so we would like to know what those costs are and what will happen when they have been paid off. We cannot find ourselves in the 2020s with the Severn bridge being used as a cash cow to milk the public in Wales and south-west England of money that the Government should not be taking through a toll, so a little transparency would be welcome.

[Geraint Davies]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Government should commission a report from the Treasury to determine whether, if it paid all the tolls that will be due before 2018, all that money would be recovered from higher income tax receipts and lower benefit costs arising from the generation of extra jobs?

[David T. C. Davies]

The hon. Gentleman puts me on the spot. I would certainly support a report from the Government giving more transparency over what will happen. His question seems to be fair and relevant, so perhaps that could be dealt with.

I have entertained hon. Members for a little too long, so let me refer, finally, to how Wales is marketed. Currently, that is done by IBW. I shall have to tell hon. Members that that is International Business Wales, because no one, except a few people in the Welsh Assembly, really knows what “IBW” is. Previously, Wales was marketed extremely successfully by the WDA, and I do not need to tell anyone that that stood for the Welsh Development Agency. The time has come for us to reconsider the way in which Wales is marketed. We have plenty of evidence, some of which is anecdotal, that IBW has not been doing a very good job. It is time for the Welsh Assembly to set up a dedicated promotional body to sell Wales to the rest of the world.

We have a good story to tell, and we still have a highly-skilled, capable and loyal work force. There is a great argument for persuading companies from across the world to come to Wales, and I look forward to working with members of the Committee, and Ministers from the UK Government and the Welsh Assembly Government, to try to ensure that that happens.

--- Later in debate ---

[Geraint Davies]

I was not expecting to hear cries for austerity from Plaid Cymru, but there you go. They come from all sorts of directions.

Very briefly, you will know, Mr Bone, that between 1997 and 2008 Britain enjoyed a period of more rapid growth than had been seen since the war with paid back debt, massive growth in employment, and reductions in welfare costs. After the financial tsunami of 2008, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) and Barack Obama got the fiscal stimulus going so that we did not go into a global depression, which the hon. Gentleman seems to be calling for. In 2010, we then had a deficit, which the coalition Government inherited. Two thirds of that was due to the bankers and one third was due to excess investment above earnings to pump-prime the economy and keep it growing. The current Government then decided to focus more on cuts than growth to get the deficit down, ending up with virtually zero growth, and the deficit has been growing ever since. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman wants to cross the Floor to the Conservative side, but when history is written, it will be seen as a painful place to be.

[David T. C. Davies]

On a point of information, the debt had already gone from £350 billion to £650 billion before the real financial crisis started to strike in 2008.

[Geraint Davies]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the real rise in debt started in 2008 after the financial tsunami, and the previous Labour Government had paid back enormous amounts of debt, partly through the sale of—[Interruption.] I think I had better redirect my argument. We can rehearse those arguments again, but people realise that what I say is, in essence, a factual record of what happened.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Geraint Davies]

It is the case that debt is now going up. I give way first to the hon. Member for Monmouth, as he has only a small point to make.

[David T. C. Davies]

May I direct the hon. Gentleman, and anyone else who is interested, to, dare I say it, my website? On the front page, there is a history of the debt and what actually happened, with every figure checked by the House of Commons Library. He will find that what I have put there is rather different from what he is suggesting.

[Geraint Davies]

I have seen the European version of his website—it is called “Mon mouth”. Moving swiftly forward, I give way to the hon. Member for Aberconwy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Geraint Davies]

I am grateful for that intervention. When we saw the Welsh Government office in Brussels, it made its top three priorities clear. The first, as it is in Brussels, was policy in the EU, and in particular where it impacts on Wales—the common agricultural policy, and the rest of it. The second was grants and funding opportunities. Convergence funding has provided billions of pounds of investment in Wales, and that must be a key priority. We have seen it throughout Wales: recently, at Swansea university, £60 million from the European Investment Bank was invested in the second campus, and the £20 million in convergence funding for that is vital. Its third priority was the profile of Wales—to brand Wales. Those are key issues.

As the hon. Gentleman pointed out, we asked whether a fourth priority should be inward investment and trade. I agree that it should, and the response we received was that the office would be happy to work with UKTI. My understanding is that we are moving down that track. The report is helpful in encouraging co-operation with UKTI, which has 83 offices, while Wales has much fewer. However, where Wales does have them, it should work in co-operation.

On the Welsh brand, I understand that the Welsh Government are now looking at a new marketing strategy, which again, I very much welcome. There are big opportunities to push forward the Welsh identity, and I think that castles should be considered. If Members will indulge me for a moment, having a background in multinational companies and global brands, the castles around Wales symbolise romance, history, culture, strengths and endurance, which are all qualities of Wales. It is all part of inward investment and tourism. The dragon tends to be slightly overwhelmed by the Chinese dragon, but there is hope yet. [Interruption.] Okay, let’s keep the dragon—sorry about that.

Moving forward, it is not only about castles; it is about having a unique, clear identity for Wales in the global marketplace. The report referred to the success of the Welsh Development Agency. Some feel that if that brand still existed, it might be able to be re-harnessed in some respect. The report also suggests that we work in co-operation with private sector practitioners on the ground. The report’s basis was to get entrepreneurs, inward investors, multinationals, academics and an array of people in the economic community to give their view on what we should do, and we should be open-minded about taking advice as the global environment changes.

The report is obviously a place in time, and a similar report will be needed downstream, because clearly, things are changing, and the role of the public and private sectors is important in providing the instruments for success in future. Few people know, when they look at some of the great global successes, such as the Apple iPhone, that some of the technology—the touch-screen and voice sensitivities—was delivered by the public sector, by a scientific foundation in the United States. Apple then took that and made it a global brand. Some people seem to think, “Oh well, it’s the private sector. They know what they are doing,” but fundamental science and innovation is vital for commercial success. The issue is to have that link between the academic, and research and development, going through to commercial success.

I mention that because it is mentioned in our report and it is alive and well in our great city of Swansea—in Swansea university, in the first instance. People there are changing the rules. Within Swansea university, instead of having a silo situation, with the engineering department here, medicine there and so on, they mix it up so that the engineers are in with the medics. In terms of life sciences, development of nanoproducts and so on, they are working with inward investors in producing global brands. They have the support of Rolls-Royce, BP and others in relation to the development of a second campus worth £200 million. As I mentioned, the investment in that from Europe has been critical. Those coalition Members—in particular, the Tories, of course—who say yah-boo to the Europeans need to realise that a joined-up approach whereby we are working together to have a strong Europe and a strong Wales within Britain within Europe is vital for the future. We cannot retrench to become fish and chip shop Britain, as many on the Conservative Benches would like to see us.

[David T. C. Davies]

What’s wrong with fish and chips?

[Geraint Davies]

There is nothing wrong with fish and chips—

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies]

They can only do so under fairly strict terms of engagement. There is no major difference, but what I am saying is that I do not want any more bodies to be able to do that. I certainly would not welcome the idea of the Assembly doing what Westminster Governments have done before—let us be honest about it—which is wait until a general election is coming along and then suddenly borrow billions of pounds on the international markets knowing that not many people understand the difference between debt and deficit, and are therefore unlikely to be able to work out the probable consequences of what is happening. Governments buy themselves elections in that way. I do not want to put that temptation in front of Members of the Welsh Assembly.

Finally, I am even more concerned about the idea of a separate judicial system for Wales. That would be costly and complex.

[Geraint Davies]

Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the subject of taxation, on the important issue of inward investment and growth, which various speakers have focused on, does he agree that what business needs to provide inward investment is certainty? If there can be changes in corporation tax, income tax and all sorts of other tax, that will put companies off investing in Wales. The only tax that people want to get rid of is the tax that everybody is charged when they cross the Severn bridge—the Severn bridge toll. That is a real barrier to inward investment and trade. We should get rid of that and forget the rest.

[David T. C. Davies]

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that getting rid of the Severn bridge toll is impossible, because he and I helped to write the report. It is not a matter of law, but a matter of a commercial contract between four companies that came together to build the bridge under certain agreements. There is nothing that we can do about it. Of course the Welsh Assembly, or even the UK Government, could decide to take on the costs of the Severn bridge if they wanted to. However, the hon. Gentleman knows very well that the Government do not have any money at the moment. We have a £1 trillion debt, most of which we inherited from his colleagues in the previous Government, and we are overspending by £168 billion every year. We are not really in a position suddenly to take on the burden of the Severn crossing.

I do praise the hon. Gentleman, however, because he has said something with which I entirely agree: business needs certainty. Businesses are already annoyed that they have to pay the cost of coming over the Severn bridge. The last thing they want is the potential for a load of extra taxes when they come into Wales, and a lack of certainty over whether those taxes may be applied at a later date if they decide to relocate there. To my mind, that is a very good argument for not devolving the power over such taxes to the Welsh Assembly.

I will finish on my point about the judicial system. The last person to toy around with the judicial arrangements in Wales was Henry VIII. He formed a judicial area for Wales, but people in Monmouthshire were so incensed that they decided to opt out of it and in to the Oxford assizes. That caused confusion all the way through to the local government reorganisation of 1974. Various people passed legislation, and some of it applied to Wales, some to Monmouthshire and some did not apply anywhere. Nobody knew what they were doing. People were driving to Chepstow to get a drink in the pub because the chapels had banned it, or something. It was absolute chaos. The last thing we want is a repeat of that. I say to all Members of the House that Monmouth is an integral part of Wales, Wales is an integral part of the United Kingdom, and for as long as I represent this constituency, long may that remain the case.

Constitutional Reform (Wales)

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Thursday 19th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

This is the first time that I have served under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and it is a great pleasure to do so. We have sat on the Back Benches for many years and have been impressed by the loquaciousness of Front-Bench Members from both sides of the House; sometimes, they have entertained us for so long that we have not had a chance to speak. Time is short today, and because I believe it important that all hon. Members should have the opportunity to contribute, I will limit my speech to 10 minutes. [Interruption.] Other hon. Members are entering the Chamber as I speak.

The issue of constitutional change and the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill was the first subject considered by the Welsh Affairs Committee. It has been a great pleasure to work with all members of that Committee. The Select Committee system is one of the great unsung success stories of Parliament, and I wish that those members of the public who think that we spend all our time arguing with each other could see what goes on in a Select Committee. Despite the range of views, there is always room for compromise and agreement on certain issues.

Unanimously, members of the Welsh Affairs Committee had concerns about the changes to the constitution. The first issue that we looked at was the idea of holding a referendum on the same day as the Welsh Assembly elections. We expressed our concerns about that, and made clear our opinion that the Government needed to take measures to ensure that the referendum ran smoothly—which, to be fair, it did. There were concerns about timing and the counting of the vote, but there were not many spoilt ballot papers and I am glad that the two elections went smoothly.

Many concerns remain, however, over proposals to reorder the boundaries in Wales and reduce the number of Welsh MPs by a significant number, probably about a quarter. There are concerns about the impact that such a change will have on the ability of Wales and the Welsh people to ensure that their voice is heard in Parliament. I accept the point, made on a previous occasion by the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), that the reforms will be one of the greatest changes since the Great Reform Act. Ever since that Act, Wales has been strongly represented to reflect the fact that it is a small nation that needs to get its voice across. I must add—this would not have been in the report—that that argument is somewhat weakened by the establishment of a Welsh Assembly. Hon. Members must take account of that.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Government continue to talk about greater democratic accountability and the reform of the House of Lords. Current plans are to get rid of 50 elected representatives from the House of Commons, including a quarter of Welsh MPs, and at the same time to introduce an extra 150 unelected Lords. There is no real chance of those reforms to the House of Lords going forward. Is the hon. Gentleman worried about having a greater proportion of unelected representatives and fewer elected representatives, and will he vote against that?

[David T. C. Davies]

The hon. Gentleman wisely anticipates a point that I am about to come to. I will return to that subject; he may hold me to that.

Let me make an obvious point that the Minister may wish to deal with. Wales is geographically challenging when it comes to offering representation. By that I mean that many of its communities are cohesive because of the topography of the area, and certain valleys make obvious constituencies. They may never contain the requisite number of people, but it is not terribly wise simply to say, “That can constitute a constituency, and we’ll add a bit of the valley next door to get the numbers absolutely right.”

A place that may look nearby on a map will not necessarily be easy to access. We already have areas in which it is challenging to be a good constituency MP. Constituencies such as Montgomeryshire and Brecon and Radnorshire are very large—I see my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) is in the Chamber—and presumably they will get even larger. That will pose challenges for the MP who represents such a constituency.

To some extent, we are allowing a bandwagon to roll that suggests that all Members of Parliament are lazy and do not have enough to do, and that we should get rid of a few of them, and give others an extra 10,000 constituents because that will produce a good headline in the newspaper. I hope that that is not the case, but I fear that as a profession, MPs do not stand up for themselves and nor does anyone else stand up for them.

MPs have a right to be treated in the same way as any one else in the country; when I read in the press that MPs should be treated like anyone else, I say that I could not agree more and that it is about time that we were treated the same in every respect. That means, however, that if someone changes our terms and conditions of work with the stroke of a pen, we should be entitled to a certain amount of notice. If we are to be given a lot of extra work—I take my role very seriously, as do hon. Members from all parties—it is only right that we should be given time to prepare for that.

I promised that I would return to the good point raised by the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) and the proposals to reform the House of Lords. I could understand some of the desire to reduce the number of MPs from 650 to 600 were it not for the fact that at the same time we are increasing the number of Members of the House of Lords and are possibly about to elect them on an 80:20 basis—we will see whether that comes to pass.

It certainly looks as though it will be more expensive to manage the House of Lords. If we wish to act in a cohesive fashion, surely we should have considered the possibility of maintaining the number of MPs at 650. We could have reordered the constituencies so that they contained the same numbers of constituents, but we could also have ensured that they remained closer to their current state, without necessarily expecting MPs to do all sorts of extra work. I have no problem with working hard, but adding an extra 10,000 people to a constituency will present certain challenges. We should not jump to do that simply because it is demanded by the tabloids.

[David T. C. Davies]

In all truth, hardly any constituents have written to me about this matter. A few have written to me to say that they are shocked and horrified by the fact that one in four Welsh MPs are going to disappear. I had to write back and say that I am also surprised and concerned, and that unfortunately they will have to fly the flag for me on the issue as I dread to think what the Daily Mail would say if it thought that I was simply trying to protect my job.

Members of Parliament work extremely hard at the moment, and I have no problem with them working harder in the future if that is possible. I do, however, have a problem with the timing of the legislation and the way that it has been introduced very quickly. I was surprised that there were not more opportunities to debate the matter, although I do not entirely blame the Government for that.

At least one Welsh MP, who is not present today, seemed able, at the drop of a hat, to deliver speeches that lasted more than an hour and covered different clauses of the Bill. That prevented us from reaching those amendments that applied to Wales. I listen to “Just a Minute” on Radio 4; he could easily have done “Just an Hour”. To pay him a small compliment, I should say that he was quite entertaining and not many people can speak for an hour and be entertaining—at this rate, I will struggle to make 10 minutes.

[Geraint Davies]

He used to be a vicar, though.

[David T. C. Davies]

I am not going to name the hon. Gentleman concerned and I shall let that comment stay on the record.

Another issue that concerned us when we conducted the report was the evidence that we received to suggest that much of the information that the Boundary Commission will work on is out of date or inaccurate. Too many people who should be on the electoral role have not registered for one reason or another.

The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean(Mr Harper), assured us that a great deal of work would be done to ensure that accurate numbers of people were recorded and that the information used to redraw the boundaries was accurate. I look forward to hearing from this Minister what work has been undertaken to ensure that everyone who should be on the electoral roll is on it.

[David T. C. Davies]

I do agree, but the evidence that we had suggested that voter registration is an issue in all parts of Wales and perhaps particularly in some of the more urban areas. However, even if it is an issue in just one part of one constituency, it is a big issue, because this is about democracy and ensuring that everyone can exercise their right to vote. How big the issue is I cannot say, but I look forward to an explanation from the Minister.

[Geraint Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way again?

[David T. C. Davies]

I will, but I am looking at the clock.

[Geraint Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman not accept that a disproportionate—[Interruption.] I can’t speak. I have lost my—[Interruption.]

[David T. C. Davies]

I will be happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman again if he wants. I apologise, but I did not quite hear what he said. [Laughter.] He is more than welcome to intervene on me again.

[Geraint Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman accept that there is a disproportionate tendency for poorer communities not to register? The boundaries should really be based on the best estimate of the number of people eligible to vote, as opposed to those who are registered, given that young people, ethnic communities, people in private rented accommodation and so on are under-represented.

[David T. C. Davies]

I will not accept that. The evidence that we had was that significant numbers of people are not registered to vote. It was right that we asked the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, who is responsible for the matter, to come back to us with further information about how that would be rectified, and he promised us announcements and assured us that action would be taken.

I do not think that we had enough evidence to say where the problem is most widespread. I certainly do not personally think that we should start redrawing the boundaries based on what is at best an educated guess as to what the problem might be—that is, having a look at constituencies and saying, “Well, that is not very affluent, and urban, so we think that X% are not registered. We’ll just redraw the boundary on that basis.”

Severn Crossings Toll

Debate between David T C Davies and Geraint Davies

Thursday 19th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[David T. C. Davies]

I must admit that that was a surprise to me. It would, of course, have been feasible to do it, but a Conservative Government in the Welsh Assembly—which was, sadly, not to be—would have had to pay back all the money to Severn River Crossing. That would have been a significant amount of money. I am not sure whether the policy applied to heavy goods vehicles—I believe that it applied just to cars—but it would still have been significant. The point is that SRC could not simply have been told to freeze the tolls without compensation being paid, because its shareholders would have had every right to take the Welsh Assembly Government to court. There would have been some practical difficulties in implementing that policy, because I presume that it would have been up to the Welsh Assembly Government to negotiate the rate directly with SRC. I am not sure how far down the line the negotiations went. It would have been feasible, but it would have been a challenging proposition. Sadly, it will not come to pass, because of the efforts of the hon. Lady’s party.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The point is that the Welsh Assembly Government had no locus or power to set anything. These things are set by the UK Parliament, which cannot be changed now. Surely the Government can announce, however, not that we can change the toll now, but that in 2017 the toll will go down to £1. If they did that, it would trigger inward investment now, not then, because people would plan for the future. They could establish their business now in south Wales, so that after 2017 their costs would go down. That is what the Government should do.

[David T. C. Davies]

Once again, the hon. Gentleman has anticipated some of my comments.

Before I turn to 2017, we should have a quick discussion about the impact on the economy. There is, as the hon. Gentleman will recall, mixed evidence about this. There is no hard evidence that the current level of the tolls is having a detrimental impact on the economy. Let me quickly add, however, that there is plenty of anecdotal evidence, which most of us would accept, particularly in relation to areas such as haulage and tourism. I worked extensively in the haulage industry and the situation is not all bad, because a haulage company in Wales competing for business that is local to south Wales has an advantage over an English company in Avonmouth, which would find it harder to compete. Similarly, shopkeepers in towns such as Chepstow might be concerned that, if we got rid of the Severn bridge tolls, it would lead to even more people crossing over and going to Cribbs Causeway, when the current numbers are already causing a problem.

Having said all that, I think that there is an impact on the economy. I do not think that it is as bad as some people have suggested, but there is a negative impact. To give some evidence for that, I remind Members that the previous Government froze the Humber crossing tolls because they felt that the level of those tolls would have made the impact of the economic downturn worse. It is sad that, having decided to do that on the Humber, the previous Government did not feel that they could make the same commitment to the River Severn. If any Opposition Members want to tell me why Wales was discriminated against in that fashion, I would be more than happy to hear their comments.

What we need is hard evidence so that we can put a proposal for 2017 to the Government. I welcome the fact that the Welsh Assembly Government, who do wonderful things on occasions—they are not all bad; like all things, they have advantages as well as disadvantages—are conducting an in-depth assessment of the impact of the current level of tolls on the economy. They will hope to get evidence from the Department for Transport. It was our strong recommendation that the DFT work with the Welsh Assembly Government on this and offer them every assistance and co-operation, and I very much hope that it does.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies]

The right hon. Gentleman has far more knowledge of what happened in 1991 than I do. However, if we had asked for a more advantageous and flexible Bill from our point of view, I presume that SRC would have asked for more than £1 billion. I was not party to the negotiations, but I imagine that it would not have simply rolled over and given way that easily—I do not know. What I know is that it is all up for grabs after 2017 or thereabouts. It is important, first of all, that we have hard evidence about the impact on the local area.

The hon. Member for Swansea East—

[Geraint Davies]

West. We have not had the boundary changed yet.

[David T. C. Davies]

I apologise. The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) made a point about the potential level of the toll after 2017. I think that he will agree that it was a back-of-the-envelope calculation, and I am sure that it can be corrected. I shall address the figures to which he has alluded. The current annual revenue from all the tolls is about £76 million a year. The current cost of maintaining the bridge is £15 million. I estimate, therefore—this is purely a back-of-the-envelope calculation—that it would be feasible to levy the toll at about £1.50 and still be able to maintain both bridges. Obviously, there may be other factors that the Welsh Affairs Committee has not been made aware of.