Wales Bill

David Gauke Excerpts

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government amendment 1.

Amendment 9, in clause 9, page 13, line 33, leave out “10” and insert “100”.

This amendment would make the Welsh Government responsible for 100 per cent of income tax revenue gathered in Wales.

Amendment 10, in line 33, leave out “10” and insert “15”.

Government amendments 2, 3 and 4.

Amendment 11, in clause 28, page 30, line 20, after “except”, insert “sections 8 and 9”.

Amendment 12, in line 22, at end insert—

‘(2A) Sections 8 and 9 shall not come into force until a Welsh Government Minister has laid a report before the National Assembly for Wales containing a statement to the effect that the Welsh Government, with regard to the Statement of Funding Policy, is content with the fairness of the arrangements for allocating funding from the UK Government to Wales.

(2B) Sections 8 and 9 shall be suspended following any substantive reform, amendment or other alteration of the arrangements mentioned in subsection (2A), until the process under subsection (2A) has been repeated.”

Government amendment 5.

[Mr Gauke]

It is a pleasure to return to the Bill. I will start with new clause 1 and amendments 2 to 5. These are principally technical changes that, taken together, are intended to address two possible scenarios that could occur if a portion of income tax is devolved to the National Assembly for Wales following a referendum. The first issue relates to the tax status of an individual. This is directly relevant to the calculation of certain social security benefits, state pensions and child maintenance payments, and could be affected by the introduction of a Welsh rate of income tax.

An issue could arise where information regarding the tax status of an individual has not yet been established or is not available—for example, if a person has newly become self-employed and it is not yet clear what rate of tax will apply. The new clause resolves the issue by allowing the Secretary of State by order, subject to an affirmative resolution, to deem a person a Welsh taxpayer for the purposes of calculating their benefits.

The second issue relates to a situation where the Welsh rate of income tax has not been set for the coming year at the time when certain social security benefits need to be calculated. New section 116D of the Government of Wales Act 2006 requires the National Assembly to pass a Welsh rate resolution before the start of the tax year, but this could be set late in the preceding tax year, thus not allowing the Government sufficient time to make the calculations that need to be made. In such cases it would be important for the Secretary of State to be able to deem a Welsh rate. This mirrors the position in the Scotland Act 1998, which includes a similar power in respect of the Scottish rate of income tax. The Bill needs to provide for the same contingencies in respect of the Welsh rate.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

In Committee, there was some confusion as to whether Kay Swinburne, the Conservative Member of the European Parliament who represents Wales but lives in England, would be eligible for the Welsh tax rate. Can the Minister clarify that?

[Mr Gauke]

I fear that the hon. Gentleman may not recall that debate correctly. There is no confusion about the definition of a Welsh taxpayer. A Welsh taxpayer includes anybody who represents Wales or a Welsh constituency. I hope that repetition will provide some clarity for him, but the position was already clear.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

The Minister is right: there is no confusion. He clarified the position in Committee. Does he agree, though, that the people of Wales might think it slightly peculiar that a Tory Member of the European Parliament who lives in England should be deemed a Welsh taxpayer?

[Mr Gauke]

All I can say is that Wales has a very good MEP in Kay Swinburne and I am delighted that she has been re-elected—[Interruption.] Indeed: by the people of Wales.

I return to the new clauses and amendments before us. However rare the circumstances that I set out a moment ago might be, the potential hardship that a delay in the calculation of entitlements would cause to individuals makes it essential that we make these amendments to cater for such circumstances.

Amendments 2 to 5 are consequential and relate primarily to the commencement of the new clause. As I said, these amendments are minor and technical, but they address an important set of circumstances that could have a serious impact on some of the most vulnerable in society. I urge all hon. Members to support them.

On Government amendment 1, clause 6 gives effect to the Silk Commission’s recommendation that the Welsh Government should be funded from a combination of a block grant and some devolved taxes, with the clause conferring the required competence on the Assembly to legislate for these devolved taxes. Amendment 1 slightly alters new section 116A of GOWA, inserted by clause 6, to correct the possibly misleading impression that those taxes listed in chapters 3 and 4 of part 4A are the only taxes for which the Assembly has competence. The Assembly already has competence for local taxation, which includes council tax and business rates, and this minor amendment clarifies the position.

On amendments 11 and 12, we have been working closely with the Welsh Government in relation to Welsh funding. In particular, the Government recognise that there has been convergence between the levels of funding in Wales and England since devolution, and that this is a significant concern in Wales. As a result, in October 2012 we agreed to implement a joint process to review the levels of funding in Wales and England in advance of each spending review. If convergence is forecast to occur during a spending review period, options will be discussed to address the issue in a fair and affordable manner, based on a shared understanding of all the available evidence.

In advance of the 2013 spending round, a joint review was therefore undertaken by the two Governments and the outcome set out in a written ministerial statement. The review determined that funding levels are not expected to converge during the period to 2015-16. In fact, an element of divergence is forecast to occur. The review also determined that relative funding levels in Wales are within the range recommended by the Holtham Commission. These arrangements ensure that we have a shared understanding of funding levels in Wales, and that a process is in place to consider options if convergence is forecast to resume. There is therefore a firm basis for proceeding with the new financial powers in the Bill, and I hope that when the opportunity arises, hon. Members will withdraw amendments 11 and 12, but I look forward to hearing them make their case.

I turn now to amendments 9 and 10. When it comes to the extent of income tax devolution in Wales, there is a careful judgment to make. Devolving an element of income tax would increase the financial accountability of the Assembly and the Welsh Government in three important ways. First, it would enable the Assembly to fund more of the spending for which it is responsible. Secondly, the Welsh Government’s budget would be directly linked to their economic decisions in areas such as education, skills, housing and planning. Thirdly, the Welsh Government would be able to vary the levels of tax and spending in Wales. However, creating the link between the Welsh Government’s decisions and their budget involves transferring some risk to the Welsh Government. Specifically, the Welsh Government’s budget would benefit if the income tax base grew faster in Wales than the UK average, but would be adversely affected if growth in Wales was slower.

The larger the proportion of income tax we devolve, the greater the potential impact on the Welsh Government’s budget. Devolving 15p of income tax would increase the size of these impacts by 50%, compared to devolving 10p. Devolving all income tax to Wales, which is the stated aim of amendment 9, would increase the potential impacts even further.

[Jonathan Edwards]

In the light of what the Minister has just said, why has the Prime Minister made a manifesto pledge, should there be a no vote in Scotland, to devolve 100% in the case of Scotland?

[Mr Gauke]

No, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has not made a manifesto pledge. The Strathclyde Commission has put forward recommendations, which will be considered in due course by my party for the next Parliament. I should point out with regard to the amendment tabled by the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, which suggests replacing 10 percentage points with 100, that the effect would be to produce negative tax rates—a minus 60% tax, a minus 55% tax and a minus 80% tax. I am not sure that that was quite what the hon. Gentleman sought to do, but I appreciate that he was trying to devolve all income tax to Wales. I take the opportunity to point out that there is a technical problem with amendment 9.

There is a balance to be struck between risks and rewards. At this stage we see no evidence that suggests we should move away from the Silk Commission’s recommendation to devolve l0p of income tax.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give the House an assurance that what the Government propose today has the full support of all the Conservative Members of the Welsh Assembly?

[Mr Gauke]

It is for this Parliament to determine what we should put in place in the Bill. We believe that our proposals strike the right balance. We support the powers. In the time that I have been involved with the Bill, it has not yet been made clear to me whether the hon. Gentleman’s party supports or opposes these measures, but perhaps we will find out today. This Government believe that the powers should be in place and that there should be an option, following a referendum, for devolution of an element of income tax to the Welsh Government. I hope, therefore, that hon. Members will accept the balance contained in the Bill and recommended by the Silk Commission, and that they will withdraw amendments 9 and 10.

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith]

I suspect that that reveals why the Secretary of State cannot speak to his own Bill and instead relies on the Exchequer Secretary. The Secretary of State will know, of course, that irrespective of whether there is a referendum in future, the volume of income tax powers to be extended to Wales has a direct link to the amount of borrowing, because the Government have chosen to introduce a different rationale for affording Wales borrowing powers from that which they used for Scotland. The Scotland Act 1998 draws a connection between the amount of capital expenditure—the budget for capital—and the amount of borrowing. In this Bill, for some reason, the Government have chosen to pursue a different rationale, whereby the ratio of borrowing is to be equal to the ratio of income tax devolution. It is very important that the Government consider amendment 10, because it would increase the volume of income tax that could potentially be exercised by the Welsh Government, and should therefore, under the logic employed by the Government, increase the amount of borrowing above the £500 million that is currently envisaged.

[Mr Gauke]

In moving on to borrowing, the shadow Secretary of State is finding whole new areas in which he is confusing the House. Does he not appreciate that there is a link between the revenue streams that the Welsh Government will have independently, including income tax, and the maximum borrowing levels that they will have? If an element of income tax is devolved, the borrowing cap will be higher than if it is not devolved. Does he understand that, and, if so, will he attempt to reconcile it with his earlier comments?

[Owen Smith]

I will forgive the Exchequer Secretary’s slightly patronising tone and simply say that I absolutely understand it. Perhaps he has not understood my point. Why does this Bill draw a causal connection between the quantum of income tax and other taxes to be devolved to Wales on the one hand, and the amount of borrowing that can be afforded to the Welsh Government on the other, when that rationale was not employed explicitly in the Scotland Act? Would he like to come to the Dispatch Box and tell us why that is different? Obviously there is no explanation—none whatsoever. Clearly, the Government have chosen to employ a totally different rationale in order to justify the lower level of borrowing that they will give to the Welsh.

The shift from 10p to 15p would not only increase the amount of borrowing that Carwyn Jones’ Government could undertake to fill the £1.6 billion gap left by this Government, but afford greater symmetry between what Labour is proposing in Scotland and what we are proposing in Wales. That shift is another positive thing about the Bill, although it will be superseded by the next Labour Government introducing even greater tax devolution in Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that second attempt, but I think I answered his question when he first intervened on me.

It is interesting that Labour Front Benchers have only now tabled amendments to the Bill to give Wales control over 15% of income tax revenue gathered in Wales. That proposal is in amendment 10. Admittedly it is better than the 10% on offer in the Bill as it stands, but it is still meagre and shows a lack of ambition and vision for Wales. That is symptomatic of the Labour Government in Cardiff and their puppet-masters here in Westminster. Of course, 15% is better than 10% and we shall be supporting the amendment if it is pressed to a vote, especially as it does not include the lockstep-plus mechanism I referred to in Committee. However, it still reflects Labour’s lack of dynamism. Why only 15%? That figure seems to have been chosen simply because it is ever so slightly better than the Tory and Lib Dem offering.

I see that Labour’s other amendments are more concerned with delay, obfuscation and preserving its own positions than with trying to get the best deal for Wales and its economy. On the vote in Committee to remove the lockstep restriction, Labour abstained, despite the Labour First Minister and Finance Minister having said that it should be removed. Where is Labour’s consistency? Again Labour Members say one thing in Wales and do another at Westminster. They are now saying that Wales should have control over 15% of income tax revenue, yet their amendment says nothing about the removal of the lockstep.

When the Westminster Government announced in November last year that Wales would be getting new powers, they stated that the powers would make Wales an “equal partner” in the UK. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Secretary of State for Wales has previously argued that Wales must be given “equal respect with Scotland”, yet his actions run completely against that. His party is effectively offering Scotland full income tax devolution, yet he is maintaining the lockstep in the Bill for Wales and proposing that we should have control of only 10% of the income tax revenues raised in our country.

In conclusion, I want the same powers for Wales as the other nations of the British state either have or are being offered. If the main party of Government here at Westminster has full income tax devolution for Scotland as its party policy, why on earth should Wales not have those same powers? The changing context of the Scottish independence referendum debate vindicates what I have said all along—namely, that its rapid development will ensure that the powers on offer in the Bill will not be the settlement for a generation that the Government are suggesting.

The Welsh economy needs those powers now, never mind in three years’ time—the earliest point at which they would come on stream. Ultimately, the powers on offer in the Bill pale into insignificance in the context of how the constitution of the British state will alter in the coming years. That should be noted by this Government and all the parties, and we should begin with full devolution of income tax, so that the Welsh Government can determine their own bands and rates.

[Mr Gauke]

I shall briefly respond to a number of the points raised in the debate. The first related to the cost of implementing the Welsh rate of income tax. HMRC is looking to develop a specific estimate for that cost but, because the timing of the introduction of a Welsh rate is uncertain and because it would depend on the outcome of a referendum in Wales, it is difficult to do so at this time.

I want to make two comments in regard to the comparisons with Scotland. First, the Scottish population is obviously larger than the Welsh population, so that will reduce some of the costs. Secondly, however, a counteracting element is that the number of people living close to the border might result in an increase in the number of people contacting HMRC to seek clarification. The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) mentioned the concern about the number of people working in Wales but living in England, and vice versa. We must remember that the definition of a Welsh taxpayer is based on where they live, not where they work. For the vast majority of people, it will be clear where they are, so we should not overstate those costs. As I have said, however, it is difficult to come up with a precise number at this point.

On the Strathclyde commission, I have made it clear that that will relate to what happens in the next Parliament. We certainly welcome Lord Strathclyde’s recommendations; there is much to take from them.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Given the comments of the Prime Minister and, especially, of the leader of the Conservative party in Scotland, does the Minister think that Ruth Davidson was being rather exuberant—for want of a better word—in proclaiming that those measures would definitely be in the manifesto?

[Mr Gauke]

I would say to the hon. Gentleman that what the Prime Minister says will be in the manifesto tends to be in the manifesto. That is a fairly wise approach.

The Opposition have set out their views and I think we have finally got some clarity. I think that Labour’s position is that we should not devolve any element of income tax to Wales, but that devolving 10p is not high enough and it should be 15p. In other words, it is saying that 15p is better than 10p, but nothing is better than anything. Labour also supports the Bill because it wants the Welsh Government to have access to borrowing powers that come as a consequence of having independent revenue streams, but it does not support the Welsh Government having access to the biggest independent revenue stream that might be available, which is income tax. I hope I have characterised Labour’s position correctly. It is simultaneously both for and against, on at least two different grounds.

With those points of clarification, I hope that the Government new clause and amendments will be accepted and that the Opposition amendments will not be pressed to a Division.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 1 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.



New Clause 2

Infrastructure guarantees in Wales

‘Her Majesty may by Order in Council provide for the transfer of responsibility for providing infrastructure guarantees in Wales to the Welsh Ministers.’—(Jonathan Edwards.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.