Hot Takeaway Food (VAT)

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Westminster Hall

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Lee. I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), who made a passionate speech in defence of the Bakewell pudding, which I hate to say I have not sampled, but I will remedy that. Hon. Members may be surprised when looking at me to learn that I enjoy the occasional baked goods from establishments—[Laughter.] I know that that is hard to believe, and that they expect me to go to salad bars, but now and again I like to support the baking industry.

In my maiden speech in the House, I took the opportunity to talk about the campaign for protected geographical indication status for the Cornish pasty, a battle that was fought and won. One can buy pasties with many interesting fillings throughout the country, but Cornish pasties can be bought only if they have been made in Cornwall, no matter where they were baked. That is a serious point, because it protects jobs, and the quality of the traditional recipe. In Cornwall, we are proud of the Cornish pasty, and if someone is eating one, we want them to eat a proper one. “Proper” is an important word in Cornwall, and that campaign successfully delivered the mark of quality.

Businesses in Cornwall that invested in making that hand-made product, which is now sent throughout the country and baked locally, have created a huge number of jobs. They have created permanent jobs, part-time jobs, particularly during peak times in the summer, and even jobs for students. I am aware of that because when I was a student, I spent a summer making proper Cornish pasties in Bodmin. I had the glamorous job of going in at 5 o’clock in the morning to peel onions until about 3 o’clock in the afternoon, and the pasties were ready for the next day. I am delighted that, the business having grown, the onions now come already peeled. That saves someone from having yellow hands, but the job provided valuable support for me when I was a student. As my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) said, the industry now employs a huge number of people in Cornwall, as does the retail side elsewhere in the country.

I followed what the hon. Member for Bassetlaw said. I would be delighted to pop to a station in my constituency to talk through the issues he raised but, sadly, I do not have any stations in my constituency. It is a mere 500 square miles, and there is no room for one, but I hope that the Government, who, as the hon. Gentleman said, take a close interest in Cornish affairs, will remedy that situation which, sadly, was not remedied under the previous Government.

The importance of the matter in the Budget has been questioned, and even in Cornwall people have said that many issues need to be dealt with: the state of the economy; sorting out public services to ensure that they are the most efficient and best delivered; and the inequality in funding. Cornwall receives lower school funding, and so on. It is right to raise such matters, and I, with my hon. Friends throughout Cornwall, will do so.

An issue should not be put to one side and allowed to go through unexamined, untested and unreformed just because it affects a specific group of people. Although it might affect a smaller group of people than some broader problems, it is incredibly important to those it does affect in terms of the economic impact and, as the hon. Member for Bassetlaw said, traditional skills. I was only peeling onions, and I was not let loose on crimping pasties, but I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) is very experienced in that, and could give a demonstration if visual aids were allowed during debates.

The Budget measures that my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay welcomed include the increase in the income tax threshold, the biggest pension increase, and the commitment to the pupil premium—on Friday, with the Deputy Prime Minister, I talked to the head teacher at a local school about how that is having an effect. Those are good news stories, and it is good to hear from people how they are benefiting from them. However, we must not ignore the smaller issues that are incredibly important to some people.

My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay pointed out the wonderful anomaly whereby when the ambient temperature is below freezing, a frozen pasty would have to be sold, with VAT, as hot food. That sums up the huge problem and a further anomaly. I suppose the Treasury could create an arbitrary cut-off point, but we are not going to the heart of the problem, which is a sensible, cogent system. We come, therefore, to the proposal that my hon. Friend and others have advanced: if a hot cabinet is used to keep something warm, it falls into the same category as fish and chips and other foods that are kept warm to the point of sale. That is easily seen, and easily inspectable by the poor employees of HMRC who may have to do spot checks, and there would not be negotiation about the proportion of hot and cold food sold in every shop.

If the Government adopt that sensible position, we might find that those who represent the industry making hot cabinets call for a debate in this Chamber. We had lots of petitions last night on behalf of the caravan industry, and wherever the Government turn, employers will be affected. However, there is a simple cut-off point, and people who want to buy hot food, wherever it is sold, can have that option and accept that they will pay VAT on the takeaway.

Bakeries are different. As my hon. Friend pointed out, if people are asked whether they want another takeaway in their town centre, the answer will probably be no. Many already exist, and we have heard about different use classes, which are appropriate in many locations. Bakeries belong in the heart of town centres. Nearby shops would love to have a bakery there because it increases the footfall and the sense of local provenance of the goods on sale. Bakeries give a very different feel to a town centre or a village—we do still have, clinging on, a few villages that contain bakeries.

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the possible loss of 300 shops on our high streets as a result of this tax would be a severe blow, which would greatly affect high-street businesses and jobs across the country?

[Dan Rogerson]

I entirely agree with the hon. Lady.

In conclusion, I wish to add a little extra plea for the Cornish pasty. My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay was generous, and hands have been stretched across the river Tamar between Cornwall and England as people have spoken about their respective products that they value and support. In Cornwall, however, there is a feeling that the Government are taxing something that people might eat instead of a sandwich or some other cold product that they would find elsewhere. There is a cultural element to that. People love a pasty; it is what they grew up with and what their mums, grannies or aunties made at home. Everyone has a favourite shop to go to, and that is part of what it means to grow up in Cornwall. Furthermore, we are a very low-income part of the country.

[Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)]

rose—

[Dan Rogerson]

I will happily give way to the hon. Gentleman who has experience of this issue.

[Mr Offord]

The hon. Gentleman is making a good speech. Does he agree that the pasty was originally created for miners going to work? Nowadays, people around the country who are not able to have a plated meal often have a pasty or another baked product as a substitute. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that this tax discriminates against those people as it may not allow them to have a proper nourishing meal at midday?

[Dan Rogerson]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and having been educated in Cornwall, he knows all about the importance of the pasty. As he said, the pasty was designed for taking down the mine and has a crust that can be left behind after being held with a dirty hand. It would have been baked hot, taken down the mine and consumed cold, as it was unlikely to still be hot by the time the miners got to it. Many other people will buy something hot from a bakery and eat it later in the day, which is different from the cold fish and chips that we have been hearing about.

To return to the Cornish perspective, the feeling is that there is a lack of recognition of a strong sense of identity and of Cornishness. To mention another visual aid, when the last runner with the Olympic flame left Cornwall and set off across the Tamar bridge, he held in his hands a Cornish flag that was sadly confiscated by the police who were running alongside. To many in Cornwall, such things send out a signal that English, Welsh or Scottish identity is fine, but we do not really want to know about Cornish identity. I know, however, that that is not the case in the Treasury, which understands the issue. As a Scot, my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury understands that sense of Celtic identity, and I know that the Treasury will listen sympathetically. Along with my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay, and other hon. Members, I urge all Treasury Ministers to look at the sensible alternative that has been proposed. It has a clear cut-off point and is enforceable, and I hope that the Treasury will respond positively to the consultation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Mills]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. The point I was trying to make was about a craft baker on the high street who is not trying to be a takeaway in disguise for VAT planning, which is in contrast to what looks like something trying to be a takeaway, but is in fact something different. That is perhaps one of the things that has tipped the Treasury over the line. It would be interesting to know what mischief it is trying to fix. Which bad guys are we tackling? I honestly suspect that the bad guys are not the high street craft bakers who will be dragged into this. Their staff will be in a horrible situation.

I went to a couple of bakers in my constituency to see what the measure will mean. The sausage rolls are out of the oven and slowly cooling down in the very much non-heated—I was careful to check—displays in the shop. I guess that if they have been there for 20 minutes, they will still be hot, and therefore there might be VAT. If they have been there for 30 minutes, they might be on the border. If they have been there for 40 minutes, perhaps they are cold enough for no VAT. I have a horrible picture of the member of staff having to poke their finger into my sausage roll to check whether the one they are selling me is cool enough not to charge VAT on or still too hot.

There is a practical issue of how the shops will know day to day that the products sat cooling have cooled long enough for me to get a 20% discount, or have not cooled so the customer has to pay VAT. I suspect that such shops will put VAT on everything and put the prices up by 20%, and they will get a nice windfall for the bits that they can convince the Revenue are not VAT-able. In practice, they will not want to charge separate prices depending on whether someone buys a product marginally above or below the ambient temperature. That would be an unfeasible and rather strange situation for everyone to get into.

[Dan Rogerson]

With his expertise in the intricacies of tax law, the hon. Gentleman makes good points. I suspect that the windfall he mentions will be offset by any decline in trade due to the 20% increase in the cost of the product, set against cold products such as sandwiches.

[Nigel Mills]

I suspect that that is probably right. This will put people off buying some products entirely. I was trying to say that I suspect that the customer will end up with a 20% price rise on all products and it will be down to the baker to match that loss of sale with the income that they get to keep on non-VATable stuff.

The Government need to produce coherent, understandable and enforceable rules. The suggestion that a product would definitely be VATable if any effort was made to keep it warm, by putting it in a heat-retaining bag, under a hot lamp or on a heated rack, after it had been baked would lead to an understandable and clear situation. I am not sure that it would tackle all the mischief that the Government seek to tackle, which is why it would be helpful to understand exactly what problem they want to solve. It would not stop something that looks a lot like a takeaway pretending to be a bakery, which I suspect is something that they would like to deal with.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gauke]

On that point, our proposal is that if food is sold at above ambient temperature, it is standard-rated, which is the same as takeaway food from Indian restaurants.

We have heard a number of arguments about why businesses will find it difficult to apply the test on ambient temperature. The test to determine whether takeaway food is hot is not new; it has been in place since 1984. However, I accept that, in many cases, suppliers do not need to ask themselves that question because they accept that their takeaway food is meant to be eaten hot and thus they pay tax even if, on a handful of occasions, the food may not actually be hot. They may make use of one of the other arguments about the purpose of the heating, and thus do not pay tax, even if the food is hot. However, the test is reasonably straightforward and will be policed in a pragmatic way.

Some hot food will have been kept hot or provided straight from the oven and will obviously be standard-rated under our proposals. In most other cases, people know when something is hotter than the air around it. A leading high street bakery chain, which has campaigned against these changes, said on its own website that customers who want a hot sausage roll should test whether the sausage roll is hot enough by feeling the temperature through the bag.

It is important to inject some common sense into this potentially trivial debate about food that at one moment is hot and at another is at ambient air temperature. We are not expecting staff to take detailed temperature readings every time they sell a pasty. HMRC will take a pragmatic approach and provide businesses with guidance, taking into account businesses’ responses on how to implement the change.

[Dan Rogerson]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way as he sets out the Government’s thinking behind this matter. I hope there is room, following the consultation, for that thinking to develop. On the specific point of temperature, we have heard that many pasties are sold outside or through hatches and so on. Will the Minister tell us what would happen if the outside temperature is freezing or below freezing? That is the sort of issue that our constituents are raising with us.

[Mr Gauke]

I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall not start taxing food as hot if the outside temperature is 40°C and the item is warm only because of the air around it, or hot because the temperature is freezing. Existing simplification schemes are already available that allow businesses to calculate their VAT liability by reference to a fixed percentage of their turnover, without requiring staff to consider the temperature of every product sold. Pragmatic approaches to apportionment are, and have always been, a common feature in VAT.

Let me turn now to the proposal by my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay. I am aware of the strength of opinion on this question, and I hear the proposal that he has made. The consultation was genuine. As it is also complicated, it would be premature of me to make a knee-jerk response to it within a few days of it closing. However, we are considering his and other constructive suggestions closely, and we are aware of the difficulties in operating a test based on ambient temperatures. As I said earlier, such a test has been in place since 1984, and it is no more than a legal definition of “hot food”. At present, it is rarely applied because businesses that accept that their food is heated in order to be eaten hot accept that it is taxable hot food, and those that argue that their food is heated for other reasons can escape VAT, even if the food is hot.

There are problems with my hon. Friend’s proposal, which potentially risks bringing hot pizza into the zero rate—I suspect that is an unintended consequence. However, it is one of many suggestions that we are considering, and we hope to be able to respond in the near future.

It has been suggested that this change could lead to business closures in the baking industry, and would disproportionately affect businesses in Cornwall, and that it should be delayed until there is stronger growth. However, it does ensure that businesses of all sizes and in all locations receive the same tax treatment for similar products and that that preferential tax treatment does not go to those with the most ingenious arguments, or the best lawyers, to support zero rating.

I accept that all taxes have an effect on growth and jobs, but VAT as a whole is less damaging than many other taxes. I hope that my comments today have provided more information on why the Government have made this proposal. The changes are designed to introduce new sensible objective tests that are less open to abuse and provide a level playing field for all businesses supplying their customers with hot food. I also hope that I have explained that we have undertaken a genuine consultation and will respond as soon as possible, and that we are listening closely to all the arguments.