Oral Answers to Questions

Clive Efford Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor General]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who has diligently and vigorously pursued his constituent’s case—I well remember the Adjournment debate that he brought to this House and the important points that he raised concerning the unduly lenient sentence scheme. I am determined to work closely across Government, and I know that my hon. Friend will continue his campaign to pursue this.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

3. What assessment she has made of the implications for her policies of the ninth report of the House of Lords Constitution Committee, “The roles of the Lord Chancellor and the Law Officers”, HL 118, published on 18 January 2023.

[The Attorney General (Victoria Prentis)]

I thank the House of Lords Constitution Committee for its thoughtful and detailed report, which highlights the complexity of this historic office. It is an honour to serve—to make law and politics work together at the heart of Government.

[Clive Efford]

The Constitution Committee rightly says that we need Law Officers

“with the independence of mind, autonomy and strength of character to deliver impartial legal advice to the Government, even where it is unwelcome.”

I am sure that the Attorney General agrees, but can she give a single example of where her predecessor met that standard in the advice that she gave to the Government?

[The Attorney General]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, but as he knows—as we all know, I think—the Attorney General’s convention means that I do not comment specifically on the advice that has been given by any holder of this office, or even whether or not advice was given.

Seriously—this is a serious matter—the report highlights some very important points about how the Law Officers work in combination, as politicians and as lawyers. That is something that I take extremely seriously myself. I know that I have duties to the court, as well as to my constituents and to the Government, and it is very important that we treat this matter with the seriousness it deserves.

Legal Advice: Prorogation

Clive Efford Excerpts

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. A number of hon. and right hon. Members are standing to contribute who were not standing at the start of the statement. That in itself is perfectly reasonable and I will seek to accommodate them if a thought has occurred to them that they want to convey, or a question that they want to put would otherwise go unasked, but once those who are standing have asked their questions pithily, we must move on to the next urgent question. I call Clive Efford.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

The Attorney General has tried to take the high moral ground, but I have to wonder what morals were applied by the Government that led to yesterday’s Supreme Court decision. When did he first become aware that the advice given to Her Majesty the Queen, the Speaker of the House and the House itself about the reasons for Prorogation was not true?

[The Attorney General]

In advocacy terms, that is what we used to call a “When did you stop beating your wife?” question. I do not accept the premise of the question. There is no question that the Supreme Court found in any way that any advice that had been given was consciously or knowingly misleading.

Withdrawal Agreement: Legal Advice

Clive Efford Excerpts

Thursday 29th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor General]

Hansard will come to our rescue, I have no doubt, Mr Speaker.

Going back to the important point made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Paul Masterton), in the end this is a policy decision made by the Government after looking at a range of options. This is a matter of politics, and to try and dress it up in a way that would be unhelpful, inappropriate and, frankly, misleading to the public is not how we should conduct ourselves.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

The Solicitor General has been pugnacious in his responses this morning, and it makes me wonder what he has to hide. We are about to make one of the momentous decisions Parliament has ever had to make on behalf of our country; surely we should have time to consider over the weekend the legal advice that the Government got?

[The Solicitor General]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that when he hears the Attorney General and reads the documents on the next sitting day, he will have ample time between then and the vote, which will not be until 11 December, to assess the information, ask more questions about it, probe the Government and come to an informed view. That is what I want him and all hon. Members to have, and that is what they are going to get.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Clive Efford Excerpts

Wednesday 13th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Chris Green]

I entirely agree.

The idea that Parliament ought to engage in a process that could result in a war of attrition until we end up remaining is repellent. The referendum decision was clear, and we need to leave as soon as possible. Let us negotiate the best deal in the time remaining, but let us also recognise that it is in the interests of the EU as much as those of the UK to win a good deal, not least because of the EU’s desperate need for £40 billion of British taxpayers’ money.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

It is now clear that “no deal” is the worst possible outcome for our country, and the vast majority of Members understand that. The Bill provides an opportunity for the House to stamp its authority on how the Government approach the future negotiations.

I will be voting for amendment (a) to Lords amendment 51, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, and not for the Lords amendment itself, but I urge the Lords to read the report of this debate and note the range of views expressed by Members who have said that they will support amendment (a). They have also said that they will vote against the Lords amendment, that they will abstain—as I intend to do—or that they will vote for it, but they are aligned on the wording of my right hon. Friend’s amendment.

I have one simple message for the Lords. I urge them to take heed of that fact, and, when they are deliberating on the Bill, to ensure that any amendment that they send back to this House unites all its Members. We need to unite behind an amendment that will influence the Government, and ensure that they take the right approach in future negotiations.

[Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)]

Our choice tonight is clear. Do we deliver the wish of the electorate or the whim of the unelected? My constituents were very clear in the referendum: 70% voted to leave, and all the constituencies in the Potteries voted to leave. Those people want to hear all the Potteries MPs speak up for their decision, to accept their wisdom and to champion the Brexit that they want to see, and it is disappointing that not all of them have done so at every stage of the Bill.

If there is one message that the referendum sent us, it is surely this: that the traditional working-class communities across the United Kingdom will no longer be ignored. The key reason they voted for me and got rid of my Labour predecessor was to ensure that we delivered on Brexit. We must fulfil that promise and reject amendments tabled in the other place.

The people of Stoke-on-Trent want Brexit to refresh the parts of Britain that the EU did not effectively reach, and they want a closer policy focus on how local and regional Britain can benefit from a global trading future. That will be possible only if we leave the customs union, which will allow us to pursue our own independent trade policies, making and enhancing our trade links with countries throughout the world. It will cause a crisis of democracy if we fail to deliver the result that people voted for, to get the best out of Brexit from new trade around the world and to reject the Lords amendments.

It is also critical that we leave the EEA and regain control of our borders. Immigration and ending the free movement of people was a primary reason for people in Stoke-on-Trent voting to leave the EU. They want us to put in place an effective, fair immigration system that will ensure the number of people coming here is at a manageable level that does not put undue pressures on local services, and that those coming here make a meaningful contribution to our country. It is essential that the House rejects amendments that would keep us saddled to the EEA and the continuation of free movement without any control or say. Nothing will lead the electorate to hold Parliament in contempt quite like Parliament holding the electorate in contempt, but that is precisely what the House of Lords is asking us to do. Instead of delivering for the House of Peers, we should be positive about delivering the people’s choice. We must embrace the opportunities that come from taking back control, and, most of all, we must get on with it.

The people have given us an instruction to leave the European Union. We must stop those trying to frustrate and sabotage Brexit. This House must obey the British people, and so must the House of Lords.

Oral Answers to Questions

Clive Efford Excerpts

Thursday 14th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab)]

7. What steps she is taking to ensure that support and advice is provided to LGBT young people.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

8. What steps she is taking to ensure that support and advice is provided to LGBT young people.

[The Minister for Women and Equalities (Nicky Morgan)]

We want every young person, regardless of their sexual orientation, to reach their full potential. That is why in March I announced a further £1 million fund to support schools to address homophobic, biphobic and transphobic bullying, in addition to the £2 million fund I announced in October 2014.

[Nicky Morgan]

The hon. Gentleman is right to mention the 55% figure. That is, of course, a drop from 65% in 2007, but we cannot in any way be complacent. In 2012, 96% of LGBT pupils reported hearing homophobic language in school. The PSHE Association published some excellent new guidance in October 2014 on diversity and relationships in its programme of study, as well as providing support to help teachers to tackle issues around bullying. Of course, having good personal, social, health and economics education and relationships advice, including material targeted at LGBT pupils and all their colleagues, is very important.

[Clive Efford]

Albert Kennedy Trust research has identified that 24% of the homeless youth population are LGBT. That is a disturbing figure, and the Government are planning to cut housing benefit for people under the age of 21. Does the Secretary of State think that the situation is going to get worse or better for those young people?

[Nicky Morgan]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, we gave just over £48,000 to the Albert Kennedy Trust in 2014-15 to develop national online mentoring services. We have also protected homelessness prevention funding for local authorities, totalling £315 million by the end of this Parliament.

Phone Hacking

Clive Efford Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

The whole country is rightly shocked at the revelations of what has been going on in our media, but today is not the time to go into details about who said what or did what at what time. Our role is to secure a full and open public inquiry. I note the acceptance of that by the Government Front-Bench team, but the issue now is when. We need to secure the available evidence to do a thorough job of investigating the issue now. The inquiry needs to be set up while the police investigations continue.

This debate is about what kind of country we want to be. A free press is an essential part of our democracy. It challenges us, exposes our weaknesses, sometimes helps to get our message across and keeps people informed of the arguments to help them to form a balanced opinion. However, the press has developed as Parliament has developed and there is a symbiotic relationship between politics and journalism. The issues we are debating here today really go to the heart of what kind of nation we want to be in the future.

We need to understand that what we are debating today has to do with how we treat weak and vulnerable people or the bereaved, and whether we stand up for people when they are under pressure or being unfairly treated, or whether we become part of a baying mob, egged on by the likes of the News of the World, eager for a kill just for the sheer excitement of it and heedless of the consequences for the victims and of whether what we are witnessing amounts to justice.

I do not believe that people want to live in that sort of country or feel that we have become such a country. The public do not share the values of the media people who have effectively brought this debate to the Floor of the House today. They do not share the values of those who have invaded the lives of innocent victims and bereaved families when they are grieving and at their most vulnerable.

I was not brought up in a country that stood by while others suffered. I always believed that the post-war Britain I grew up in was a country that stood up for fairness and perhaps for those who were not as strong as ourselves. I thought the country was populated by a heroic generation that was justifiably proud of what it had endured through the second world war and of the freedoms that had been won—not just for themselves but for the whole world. That was achieved by ordinary people doing extraordinary things for the greater good of everyone. It is these ordinary people we are defending today.

Who are the people who believe that they can trample over the lives of ordinary people and use them for their own ends or their own advancement? Should we allow ourselves to be seduced into accepting that the things these people dictate to us, claiming they are in our interest, are acceptable and should be allowed to happen?

[Helen Goodman]

rose—

[Clive Efford]

I will not give way, if my hon. Friend does not mind.

I cannot go into the detail of specific cases, as others have done. What I will say, however—this is one of the points that I really wanted to make—is that I think there is a corporate responsibility. I applaud Ford for withdrawing its advertising from News Corporation. I also think that anyone who is not a fit and proper person to drive my old taxi should not be put in charge of a major news outlet.

Other organisations—Halifax, npower, T-Mobile and Orange—say that they are reconsidering their position, while Tesco and Virgin Media say that they will wait for the outcome of the police inquiry. That is not good enough. I say to people who may be purchasing goods from those organisations, or thinking of buying a new mobile phone, that they should not trade with companies that do not stand side by side with the ordinary person in the street who is outraged at what has gone on in News International.

Only if ordinary people make a stand will we stop these rich people—rich people who have invaded the lives of ordinary people in the street—making themselves even richer and even more powerful. Only by hurting them where it really matters—in their profits—will the ordinary person in the street influence their behaviour in the future.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)]

We have had an important and overwhelmingly thoughtful debate on a subject of deep significance not only to the House, but to a huge number of people across the country. Right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have, as is perfectly reasonable, expressed their disgust and outrage at the latest allegations we have heard over the past few days.

To hack into the phone messages of victims of murder and terrorism and their families will strike all right-thinking people as completely beyond the pale. As the Prime Minister has made clear, and as the Attorney-General stated at the start of the debate, the Government share the shock of the House and the nation. Our thoughts are with the families of those affected by this latest cruel twist in what has been for many of them an horrific ordeal. The Dowler family have gone through more in the last few weeks and years than any family should ever have to go through. The same is true of the families of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman. Now, as we approach the sixth anniversary of the 7/7 London bombings, we hear that the families of the victims of our worst ever terrorist attack might also have had their phones hacked. The timing is a particularly terrible irony, as the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said at the outset of the debate.

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on behalf of the whole House not only on obtaining the debate, but on fighting for so many years on the issue. I congratulate him also on striking exactly the right tone in the debate; it is a matter on which the House needs to move forward as one. I also agree with the shadow Home Secretary’s point that one of the institutions that need to look at how they operate in this regard is the House of Commons, which must decide how best to deal with such difficult matters that not only give rise to complex issues of public policy, but require personal bravery on the part of individual Members by putting themselves and their reputations on the line. She made that point and it is exactly right.

It is not just the rich and famous whose lives may have been affected—although they, too, have basic rights to privacy and fair dealings—but the families of those who have suffered pain beyond what any of us can imagine have had their lives intruded on. The hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), who also deserves congratulations, provided new and powerful evidence about some of the things that have gone on. My hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) made the particularly important point that, although much of the debate has inevitably concentrated on News International, the subject is much wider and relates to other press groups and newspapers as well.

I also praise the honesty of the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), the former Home Secretary, and the former Police Minister, the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), in revealing that some of the untruths and cover-ups that they might have had to deal with meant that they either took decisions that in retrospect they might wish they had not taken, or, indeed, actively said things that misled the House. It is important that everyone accepts the honest tone in which such revelations have been made. I congratulate also my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), who made a powerful point about not endangering prosecutions.

[Clive Efford]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Damian Green]

I apologise, but I really do not have time.

Owing to the seriousness of the allegations and to the fresh information, the Metropolitan police service decided in January to open a new investigation, which many Members have mentioned. It is being led by Deputy Assistant Commissioner Sue Akers, and I should emphasise that it involves a completely separate unit in the Met from the one that carried out the original investigation in 2006. It is one of the largest ongoing police investigations, and it is precisely because of this new, thorough investigation that new evidence and information about what exactly went on is being obtained. The investigation has already led to five arrests, and it is entirely possible that there will be further arrests and, potentially, further prosecutions.

The Director of Public Prosecutions has announced that the Crown Prosecution Service will examine any evidence resulting from the Met investigation, and it has asked Alison Levitt QC, who has had no previous involvement in the case, to take a robust approach in deciding whether any prosecutions can be brought.

The Home Secretary spoke this morning to Sir Paul Stephenson, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. He assured her that the current investigation is fully resourced and proceeding well; he told her that any allegations of inappropriate payments made to police officers by journalists is being fully and independently investigated in conjunction with the Independent Police Complaints Commission; and he assured the Home Secretary also that this matter will continue to be investigated through Operation Elveden, under the direction of Deputy Assistant Commissioner Sue Akers, in partnership with the Met’s directorate of professional standards.

Of course, a number of cases may go before the courts, so it is important that we do not prejudge or prejudice potential future prosecutions. We must allow the current police investigation to get to the bottom of these terrible allegations and to discover the truth, but it is clear that, in the light of the step change in the seriousness of the allegations, we must have a public inquiry or inquiries into these matters.