Oral Answers to Questions

Christian Wakeford Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to point to some of the difficulties in the hospitality sector. I speak to hospitality entrepreneurs in my constituency and across the country who are finding it difficult, which is why we stepped in with, first, a package of about £13 billion of business rates support, and there was £4.3 billion of business rates support last autumn. We passed the equivalent moneys on to the Scottish Government to pass on to their hospitality venues, but they passed on none of it.

A typical pub in Scotland is £15,000 worse off than a typical pub in England, and a typical guest house is £30,000 worse off. That is why Scotland has a 30% higher failure rate than England. Similarly, a typical pub in Labour-run Wales is £6,000 worse off and a typical guest house is £12,000 worse off, and there is a 19% higher failure rate. It is critical that the benefits are passed on to those businesses, and that we look for structural reform. Anyone who wants to scrap business rates needs to show where the £22.5 billion of income will come from, rather than simply saying that they will scrap them without announcing a replacement.

[Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Lab)]

15. What assessment she has made of the effectiveness of publicly naming employers for the enforcement of the national minimum wage.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

Since 2011, we have published 20 press releases and named around 3,200 employers that have, in total, repaid over £41 million in arrears to over 460,000 workers. We have recently had round 20 of the scheme.

[Christian Wakeford]

Naming and shaming serves as a deterrent, but should we not go further against persistent offenders? Paying the minimum wage is not an opt-out; it is a law that no company is above. Stronger penalties, including fines proportionate to the severity of the violation, to ensure that no employer can exploit its workers with impunity, would level the balance between employers and employees. Will the Minister commit to exploring these measures to safeguard the rights and the dignity of workers?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Gentleman is right to point to this measure. We know that naming and shaming is a significant deterrent against underpayment of the national minimum wage, and we are very keen to ensure that naming continues. Alas, in the most recent naming and shaming round, 2,800 minimum wage investigations returned more than £16.3 million in arrears to over 120,000 workers. His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs issued businesses with nearly 700 fines, totalling £13.2 million. As the hon. Gentleman recognises, naming and shaming alone is a significant deterrent and we intend to continue doing it.

Conversion Practices (Prohibition) Bill

Christian Wakeford Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 1st March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

I will come to the hon. Gentleman’s point and will suggest an amendment that might, if he were to allow it to proceed in Committee, make him feel happy and resolve the situation.

[Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Lab)]

Surely the entire point of the Bill is what my hon. Friend is already addressing, which is that the practice is evil: it is evil against gay people, evil against lesbian people, and evil against transgender people. If it is abhorrent for everyone, it is abhorrent for everyone, so it should be tackled.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

I totally agree.

In the process of writing the Bill, I endeavoured to meet everyone who asked. I visited people in their communities across the country and I invited people to meet in this place. I want to thank various groups, including Stonewall, the Ban Conversion Therapy campaign group, TransActual, TransLucent, and the medical profession. But I also want to thank people who have very different views from mine, who I have met and listened to: the Christian Institute, Keira Bell and her lawyers, the LGB Alliance and the Gay Men’s Network, to name a few. I have engaged with all in good faith. I have considered and, in most cases, adopted suggestions that each one of those groups has made to make the Bill better.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Lab)]

I rise to lend my support to the Bill in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle). I must say how disappointing it is that we have got to a position where it looks like the Bill will not be read a Second time. Due to filibustering by one Member on the Opposition Benches and a lengthy debate, it looks like we will be failing an entire section of the community.

I commend my hon. Friend for the way he has gone about bringing forward the Bill. He joked at the start that the Whips Office thought it could be “batshit”—that may or may not have been me, I don’t know—but he should be thoroughly proud of his approach in introducing it, which was moderate and level. I know his colleagues are immensely grateful to him, too. The Bill represents a crucial step forward in protecting the rights and dignity of the LGBT community across our nation. Put simply, the Government had a problem and this was a way to solve it.

On 6 December, I hosted a Westminster Hall debate on this very issue and I shared the stories of Sienna and Ben. For brevity, I refer colleagues to Hansard to see what was debated on that day. Conversion therapy is a barbaric and deeply harmful practice that seeks to change a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity through psychological or religious means. It is rooted in bigotry, prejudice and outdated notions of sexuality, and it has no place in a modern, progressive society. No one can consent to abuse. In short, the practice is abhorrent and evil, and it needs to end now.

Despite the overwhelming evidence of the harm caused by conversion therapy, successive Governments have failed to take decisive action to outlaw the cruel practice, and they have done so again today. When the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) was Home Secretary, she announced that the Government would do just that, and since then numerous Ministers, including the current Leader of the House, have said that we should ban conversion therapy—no ifs, no buts—yet we are still waiting for that to happen.

That is a stark dereliction of the Government’s first duty, which is to protect all citizens, regardless of their sexual orientation and gender identity, and their right to wellbeing. The Government’s moral wrongs and hypocrisy on this issue are glaringly obvious. Although they claim to support the community and equality, their inaction on conversion therapy speaks volumes and sends a chilling message to LGBTQ individuals that their lives and identities are somehow less worthy of protection and respect. This is a dark day for this place. I hope the Government and the Minister find a way to come forward with amendments. I want us to work in a cross-party manner to address the situation.

We cannot allow vulnerable individuals to be subjected to this harmful practice under the guise of so-called therapy or treatment. By sending my hon. Friend’s Bill to Committee, we could have sent a powerful message that discrimination and bigotry have no place in our society. We could have reaffirmed our commitment to equality, dignity and human rights for all, and finally put an end to the scourge of conversion therapy, but it looks like we have chosen not to do so today. I will have to think about this long and hard on my train journey back north today, and I hope everyone will reflect deeply about what this means for them and for this place as a whole, because we are here to protect individuals.

It is still not too late to pass this Bill, so I urge all Members to stand on the right side of history and support this crucial legislation. Let us come together to protect individuals’ rights and dignity, and send a clear message that love is love. No one should ever be forced to change who they are, who they love and what they believe in. Ultimately, we must end this evil practice now.

Draft Human Medicines (Amendments Relating to Coronavirus and Influenza) (England and Wales and Scotland) Regulations 2024

Christian Wakeford Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2024 General Committees

[Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)]

On a point of order, would it be in order for us to say happy birthday to our wonderful Whip, my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield?

[Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Lab)]

Object! [Laughter.]

[The Chair]

I am sure the Chairman of Ways and Means would always want to acknowledge that sort of event, so happy birthday to the Government Whip. I call the Minister to move the motion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christian Wakeford]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Maria. The Minister will note that I am not the shadow Minister, but if my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead has any additional questions she will write to the Minister. I will start by wishing the hon. Member for Beaconsfield a happy birthday, though unlike the Minister I do not need to keep up a good relationship with the Whips’ Office anymore.

I first want to pay tribute to all those who have done so much to blunt the impact of the unprecedented pandemic that came to the UK nearly four years ago. A remarkable effort has been made by our health and care staff, our scientists and others in public services who have done so much to keep the public safe and vaccinate millions across the country as quickly as possible. The positive impact of the vaccination programme cannot be overstated. It not only undoubtedly saved so many lives and drove down cases of covid-19, but finally allowed us all to end the lockdowns and reclaim our freedoms.

As the Minister set out, today we are considering regulations to update legislation pertaining to the movement and supply of covid-19 and influenza vaccines. The changes seek to extend the sunset clauses of regulations 3A and 19 to 1 April 2026 and alter regulation 247A to extend its provision until 2026, instead of the current restriction on its use to only during a pandemic. Extending the provisions, which includes allowing the NHS to continue to use an expanded workforce, appears to be an important intervention to continue to allow the deployment of safe and effective covid-19 and influenza vaccines at the pace and scale required to keep the public protected.

The draft regulations aim to build on the hard work of the covid-19 vaccine roll-out across the country. It will be of no surprise that Labour finds them uncontentious and will support them. As shown by the mostly positive responses to the Government’s consultation last year, the provisions appear to have proved very beneficial to stakeholders in the health and care sector. Regulation 247A appears to have reduced workforce pressures while increasing flexibility in the workforce and providing opportunities for career progression. The impact assessment highlights the positive expected value of these regulations and shares the conclusion that vaccinations are a powerful and beneficial tool to tackling viruses and diseases like influenza and covid-19.

None the less, we have some questions for the Minister. In the impact assessment, the Department mentions its work to move towards a permanent approach that will likely alter these provisions again in the future. As they will be extended only by two years, there appears to be a need for a long-term solution. Can the Minister provide us with any detail about the progress the Department has made in its planning for a permanent approach and when we should expect the developments to be brought forward?

I also wanted to ask the Minister about the wider issues of vaccine take-up, vaccine hesitancy and vaccine misinformation. They are especially poignant given the recent measles outbreak across the country, where too few of our youth were protected against a potentially deadly virus. The Minister will likely be aware of calls last autumn for the Government to extend this winter’s covid vaccination booster programme to the 12 million people in the 50-to-64 age cohort. Can the Minister explain why the provision was not extended to that age cohort and whether the Department is worried that we have left millions without proper protection during this winter?

In recent months, it has been proposed that covid-19 vaccinations could be accessed privately, in a similar way to what happens in the United States. Can the Minister share any details about whether and when those vaccinations could be available on the high street? I would also like to raise the issue of health inequalities faced by ethnic minority groups and the most deprived in our society. Last winter, influenza admission rates were 2.6 times higher and covid-19 admission rates 2.1 times higher for individuals living in the most deprived areas than for those in the least deprived. The rate of emergency hospital admissions for influenza was 1.6 times higher for black British people and other minority ethnic groups than for white ethnic groups. I am sure the Minister agrees that the findings emphasise the need to improve vaccine coverage across all ethnic groups and among the least well-off to reduce the risks associated with both influenza and covid-19. What are the Government doing to tackle these inequalities?

Finally, I would like to ask the Minister to explain what the Government are doing to tackle the vaccine misinformation that continues to be widely shared across the country. It remains a large barrier to the delivery of safe and effective vaccines to those who need them and could have a major impact in the future if we face similar health emergencies. While we support the instrument today, I hope the Minister can address the points I have raised. We must ensure we achieve the ultimate goal of sustaining the supply and improving the take-up of safe and effective covid-19 and influenza vaccines at the pace and scale required.

[Maria Caulfield]

I am pleased that we have cross-party support for the regulations. They are important in ensuring that we can deliver an efficient vaccination roll-out, particularly with a potential spring roll-out coming early this year.

In answer to the questions from the hon. Member for Bury South, yes, we are working to look at a more long-term solution. We are engaging with key stakeholders such as NHS England, and proposals will be made. There will need to be a consultation, and we will set out the date of that so that everyone can engage with it. It is one thing to put temporary measures in place, but it is another thing to put in long-term, sustainable measures, so it is important that all stakeholders are consulted, particularly those in primary care.

The regulations today extend only to Great Britain. Northern Ireland is not included because health is a devolved matter and there is not a sitting Assembly, but work is going on with Northern Ireland officials and there was positive news today of the potential of the Assembly restarting. We want to make sure that Northern Ireland will be covered by the provisions once there is an Assembly.

[Christian Wakeford]

On that point, it was helpful to have the news today about the Northern Ireland Executive. If, for any reason, they take a long period for this—they have two years to catch up on—will there be a further SI to implement these provisions in Northern Ireland?

[Maria Caulfield]

Ideally, we would not want to do that, because it is for Northern Ireland to determine its own health decisions. However, I can say that Department officials have been sharing draft materials with Northern Ireland officials so, once the Assembly is up and running, that could potentially happen fairly quickly.

On the point that the hon. Member for Bury South made about vaccine hesitancy, it is absolutely true that we are seeing vaccine and immunisation hesitancy across the country. It is very unhelpful that some of these misleading claims are being made, but, when we engage with community leaders, faith leaders and primary care teams that know their communities, we are able to engage.

We had a very successful covid-19 vaccine roll-out, getting to communities that are usually under-represented in vaccination programmes. During covid, that was thanks to the work of the Equality Hub and teams such as the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities. We are now using them again, particularly in London and the west midlands, for the measles immunisation programme, and we should be able to update colleagues about progress on that fairly swiftly.

Although it is not an issue with covid-19 and flu vaccines, there is concern among the Muslim and Jewish communities, and among Seventh-day Adventists and Rastafarians, about the use of pork in some of the measles vaccines. I would just reiterate that there are non-pork-based measles vaccines available, so that should reassure communities on the alternatives. However, there is work to be done in providing reliable information, getting the confidence of communities and making that vaccine as accessible as possible. That is why we are also working with our school teams to ensure that when young children need immunisation, it is as accessible as possible.

The hon. Member touched on the availability of vaccines. We follow JCVI advice and we expect to publish the JCVI advice for the spring roll-out fairly shortly. For those not covered by NHS vaccine programmes—we did not do the over-50s this year—we are looking at the options of a private market for covid-19, as is currently the case for flu. We are having discussions with both suppliers and pharmacies to see what is possible. Again, we will support any moves towards that as much as we can.

The hon. Member’s final point, I think, was about ensuring that we can cover as many people as possible with the vaccines. It is down to the JCVI advice. We almost always follow its advice, and it looks at a range of risk factors. That will also change over time; we may move to an annual covid vaccine at some point, compared with the spring and autumn roll-outs, but that will all be guided by the JCVI advice. Obviously, if a variant of concern emerges, that will change things.

The flexibility that these regulations provide really makes a difference, and we have had a positive reception from NHS England—from primary care—about the difference that it has made to the skills mix and career progression of many who administered the vaccines, as the hon. Member pointed out. It has also been a real opportunity to develop the workforce. I hope that that answers hon. Members’ questions. I thank them for their cross-party support.

Question put and agreed to.

Conversion Practices

Christian Wakeford Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered Government policy on conversion practices. 

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Fovargue—perhaps I will refer to you as Madam Chairman for simplicity.

Colleagues, let me tell the House about Sienna. Sienna, 31, is non-binary and was sent to conversion therapy by her father every summer between the ages of 12 and 15. Sienna has known that she is a lesbian since the age of 8, but her devout Catholic father planned for her to “pray the gay away” at camps. She recalls the worst part of the experience as being when the practitioner or administrator were abusive towards her when she was 14.

“They would often try to beat the ‘queer thoughts’ out of us. During my father’s last attempt at conversion therapy, I knew that these camps would never end if I didn’t pretend to be straight. So, I put on a facade of being ‘normal’ for him. It’s only then that the abuse ended.”

Siena did not tell anyone about what she had been through until her late 20s. Instead, she turned to alcohol, drugs and sex as coping mechanisms.

“I didn’t care about what I was using to cope because it felt like no one cared about what happened to me. Eventually, I did talk about it with close friends and then my mother, years after she got divorced from my father. It was so difficult to open up about.

I’ve always known that I was different. I’ve struggled with my identity for years, but deep down I know who I am. I want countries that are yet to ban conversion therapy to know how damaging it is. It’s a barbaric practice that does more harm than anything else. I’ve known people who killed themselves because they weren’t allowed to be their true selves. Conversion therapy doesn’t work and should never be thought of.”

Ben, 34, is a gay man who also endured conversion therapy in a religious setting, which they describe as “brainwashing”. They say their religion seemed very friendly on the surface. However, there were rules, and mixing outside the religion was frowned upon. Doing so could result in being publicly reprimanded or, more dangerously, disfellowshipped. That meant being shunned by all in the religion, blacklisted and losing all support from friends and family. Their religious parents forced them into studying the Bible daily, attending regular meetings and completing study activities.

[Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)]

I thank my hon. Friend for making such an important point. Does he recognise that some of us who are religious and have religious belief know that this practice is abhorrent?

[Christian Wakeford]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I would go one step further and say that not only is it abhorrent; it is evil, and there is no place for it in any part of society.

As well as study activities, Ben also had to go door to door and preach on the streets every week.

“From a very young age, I knew I was gay. However, I had been taught that homosexuality was disgusting in the eyes of God. I felt so alone with the feelings I had.”

Ben was outed by another member of their faith group, who found out that they had a boyfriend. Ben was 21.

“He gave me the ultimatum that I had to tell my parents before he did. We were dealing with a family bereavement, so it wasn’t the right time. I was petrified of the repercussions of coming out, so I initially did it by text message. I hoped it would soften the reaction when I was face-to-face with my parents. However, I was accused of deceiving my parents, and their reaction was hateful. They told me I was ‘disgusting’ as they feared what other people would say. Our family environment became a warzone.”

Ben’s parents tried to tell them that they were going through a phase and had just not met the right girl yet. That went on for months, destroying Ben’s mental health and leaving them with no choice but to endure religious study activities.

“They wanted to ‘make me see sense’. Over a year I had to talk about my sexuality in detail, as I risked being made homeless. I was even made to change my dress sense to stop wearing bright colours and have my hair cut short to appear more ‘masculine’.”

Ben had to read the same scriptures over and over again, even being given “homework” of watching heterosexual pornography, which they did in an attempt to regain stability over their life. Eventually, Ben hit rock bottom and repeatedly ran away from home.

“I have struggled with my sexuality all my life, and what I’ve been through means I now battle constantly with shame, fear, trust issues, needing validation and waiting for people to abandon me.”

I think we will all agree that that is no way to live.

“Everyone deserves a safe space. If I had that, it could have been my chance to escape earlier, and I want that option for anyone in my situation.”

I could go on and share countless testimonies from many people, but I will share the words of just one more person. Penny, 50, from Portsmouth, said it best in 2018:

“Conversion therapy…is abuse of the worst kind and must be stamped out.”

That was not just any Penny; that was our current Leader of the House, who was the Minister for Women and Equalities at the time of those words. Her article in The Independent went on to say that her Department would now consider

“all legislative and non-legislative options”

to prohibit promoting, offering or conducting the therapy in the UK. So as glad as I am to have secured this incredibly important debate, there really should be no need for it. Half a decade has passed, and the Government have betrayed the LGBT community on this issue. There has been U-turn after U-turn because we have had Conservative Prime Ministers who have been too weak to take on the right wing of the party.

Banning all forms of so-called conversion therapy is the right and moral thing to do. A ban on conversion therapy is not woke, left wing or for snowflakes—or whatever other bizarre term certain people opposed to it want to offer up this week. It is not complicated, as some have made it out to be. There has been a failure of leadership. It is the right thing to do.

We sometimes go wrong in this House at times like this. This is not a debate—it should never be a debate. It is a conversation, at best. People are entitled to their own opinions; however, they are not entitled to their own facts. Underpinning this conversation is the fact that conversion cannot be done: we cannot change someone’s sexuality or gender identity, just as you cannot change mine, Madam Chairman. People can go on all the courses and say all the prayers they want, but it cannot be done. It is physically impossible; in fact, it is perverted to think that it is possible.

For someone in a position of power to push their ideas of what sexuality is means that they are imagining what people are doing behind closed doors. It seems to me that that person not only has a problem, but is the problem—it is not the young person who is gay, lesbian or trans. It is not a choice to be lesbian, bi, gay or trans. If it were, why would anyone actively choose to make their life harder? Members should ask themselves the question: “Would I choose to face front-page demonisation almost every single day? Would I have chosen, decades ago, to be jailed for who I fell in love with? Would I choose to be part of a group that saw record levels of hate crime this year?” No, they would not—no one would. Why? Because it is not a choice. We all know who we are in this room. So what gives us the right to tell other people that they are not who they know they are, and to leave the door open for already vulnerable young people to be preyed upon by religious zealots and hateful bigots?

Every child and young person deserves the opportunity to be loved, respected and nurtured—to be a positive force in this world. There is no need for a slanging match on this issue. Not everybody is like the social norms we hold up in society, and that is okay; it is what makes us different, what we should be embracing. We are talking about real people—normal young people—but if we continue on the current path, they will only grow into adults who are severely damaged or, in some cases, dead. They will be dead because the Government did not change something from wrong to right with a flick of a pen on a piece of legislation. We need a meaningful ban on an abhorrent and evil practice.

I came to this House to do what I thought was the right thing—to protect those who are the most vulnerable—and I would like to think that every single Member in this room made that same choice: not to take sides and to argue this to the death, but to find solutions to these problems. That is why we in Labour have said that we will ban all forms of conversion therapy—no excuses, no loopholes; no one can consent to abuse.

It was disappointing to hear some of the accusations from the Government that a ban would inevitably criminalise parents talking to their children. That is a ludicrous suggestion. Parents should always be able to speak to their children, just as I am very fortunate to be able to speak to my daughter. What we do not want, however, is parents sending their kids on a course to have the gay prayed out of them. The Government cannot afford to get this wrong; too many lives are literally at stake. My hopes and prayers are that we will—

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

The hon. Member is raising some very deep points that need to be in a conversation and considered. Bad parenting is exactly that: bad parenting. But does he believe that, when addressing issues to do with conversion therapy—and therefore issues that go to puberty blockers and issues like that, on the other side of the debate—there should be a policy that says to parents, “You’re not allowed to have a say in that matter for your children, your infant”? Secondly, would it be his party’s policy not only that parents would not have a say on puberty blockers, but that there should not be a lower age limit at which puberty blockers should not be administered and that they should be administered at any age that it is thought they are required?

[Christian Wakeford]

While I thank the hon. Member for the intervention, I do not think that it is relevant to the debate.

[Ian Paisley]

It’s very relevant.

[Christian Wakeford]

I disagree with the hon. Member. This is about conversion therapy, not about some practices or whether or not someone is trans. I do not think that is relevant.

My hopes and prayers are that we will listen and recognise that outlawing conversion therapy can never have any get-out clauses. Anything else is a ban in name only.

Normally at this point I would finish my speech and sit down; however I want to finish by offering a hand of friendship to the Minister, in good faith. I know that he cares deeply and passionately about this issue. I have heard him speaking in the Chamber and spoken to him outside, and I know how passionately he cares about all this. I really hope that we can work together on this, so let us please work together on a ban on all forms of conversion therapy. Let us not look back at this time as a missed opportunity; let us do the right thing and ban this evil practice.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)]

I will struggle to get what I want to say into five minutes, but I will certainly have a stab at it. I will focus principally on the assertion that there is a need for a ban on conversion therapy, including for the conversion of trans people, and I want to look at it through a slightly different lens.

I will start with a quote from Kierkegaard:

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

That is, in essence, the point I want to make. Legislation is supposed to fix a problem, not create a new one, and where evidence of conversion practices exist, they will not be mitigated but exacerbated by such proposals. The true scandal that needs to be addressed is the medical and surgical conversion of young lesbians and gay males by affirming and transing away the gay.

This proposal rests on a bed of dangerous lies, and it is but one part of an assault on the sex-based rights of women, lesbians, gay men and bisexual people. It is perpetrated by and done under the cover of once-important LGBT organisations such as Stonewall, which are erasing gay identities and are complicit in using the T to erase the LGB.

There are three legislative conceits that form part of this movement: gender self-ID, amendments to hate crime and public order legislation, and so-called conversion therapy bans. Each is the antithesis of what it purports to be. Self-ID is not about equality but about promoting supremacy, hate crime legislation is about silencing the raising of valid safeguarding concerns, and preventing conversion therapy is promoting the very thing it aims to stop. The planned Bill is today’s modern conversion therapy scandal, and it is affecting vulnerable children and young people who may be gender non-conforming or struggling with normal yet distressing pubertal body dysmorphia. It would embed the lie that those young people have been born in the wrong body, that the normal development of puberty should be arrested with chemicals—something that can never be restarted or repaired—and that emotional distress can be fixed with hormones and irreversible radical surgical intervention.

That is being facilitated in Scotland and elsewhere by Government non-statutory guidance, promoted by activist teachers and enabled by others who are bamboozled, threatened and afraid to speak out because of the attacks carried out by radicalised gender activists. Social transitioning is being arranged and encouraged in schools, with parents and carers being completely excluded from their own child’s care. The NSPCC recognises that as a form of grooming, stating:

“Groomers may introduce ‘secrets’ as a way to control or frighten the child.”

Teachers prepared to keep secrets with children, to the exclusion of their parents or child protection teams, is not only dangerous to the child but legally precarious for that teacher, and they should be open to prosecution. None of those teachers are employed as experts in psychological therapy, dysphoria or complex gender assessment. What they are doing is top-to-tail dangerous and wrong. In their zeal, and in secret from parents, they are effectively denying vulnerable children access to the very therapeutic support that they so desperately and obviously need, from real experts, not gender ideology radicals. That is chilling.

[Christian Wakeford]

This is not a debate about trans rights; it is about conversion therapy. I think we have all acknowledged that conversion therapy is abhorrent and evil. If it abhorrent and evil for gay and lesbian people, it is abhorrent and evil for trans people. How this conversation keeps descending to an anti-trans position is wrong. Will the hon. Gentleman think on that point: that conversion therapy is evil and just needs banning?

[Neale Hanvey]

I cannot really respond to the hon. Gentleman constructively because he is obviously not listening to the points I am making.

When I was a young lad—this might stretch Members’ imagination—I was a very pretty boy. In the 1970s, I had long hair and flared trousers, and I was often confused for a girl. The question I am struggling with is this. Is it possible that I would have been open to this form of conversion therapy, and would not have become the successful, happy, gay man that I am today? I can only conclude that, yes, that could easily have happened to me.

We had plenty of struggles growing up, such as section 28. My friend the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) and I attended the first ever Pride event in Edinburgh, Lark in the Park. We have faced these struggles and now we face them once again. I am absolutely exhausted from listening to people using my history and my struggle against me, when I am when I am attempting to stand up for the rights of young LGB people and protect their futures.

I appreciate that I need to draw to a close, so I will conclude with this. It is not a ban on conversion therapy that the Bill proposes; rather, it is rocket fuel for radicalised ideologues, to trans away the gay, depriving a generation of young LGB people from becoming the fabulous, vibrant and unique, gender non-conforming people they have every right to be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

I come to the debate as a feminist and a lesbian who has been out since 1987. Like my friend the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale Hanvey), I have been active in the gay rights movement since the late ’80s, when I first campaigned against the introduction of section 28. Of course I oppose conversion therapy as it is conventionally understood, but I share the concerns of many feminists and lesbians that the inclusion of the concept of gender identity in any Bill risks threatening the professionals working with children and vulnerable people who are having issues with their gender if they seek to explore the reasons for that distress.

Over the past few years, there has been a worrying rise in the number of children, particularly girls, becoming convinced that they were born in the wrong body and seeking to take puberty-blocking drugs and sex hormones. Looking at the statistics, about 74% of teenagers referred to the gender identity development service at the Tavistock Centre are girls. Only 8.5% of those girls say that they are exclusively attracted to boys; almost 70% of them say that they are attracted only to other girls, and 20% are attracted to both sexes. In other words, the vast majority of teenage girls being referred to the GIDS clinic are lesbian or bisexual.

The treatment with puberty-blocking drugs and cross-sex hormones that I described is a controversial, experimental medical treatment for a complex problem. We have also seen an increase in the number of young people who have later regretted the irreversible damage done to their bodies and sought to de-transition. Young women, particularly those who may be internalising lesbophobia or misogyny, must be offered alternatives to such drastic medical pathways, and their teachers, parents and therapists should not be threatened with prison and fines for discussing the options with them.

In the years leading up to puberty, I, like many girls, was a tomboy and wanted to be a boy, but when I grew up, I realised I was a lesbian. It is really very common for young girls to want to be boys. Some of them grow up to be lesbians, some of them grow up to be trans, and some of them grow up to be straight, but they need time to grow up before they make irreversible decisions. What those campaigning for a ban often call “conversion therapy” is in fact legitimate protection of the time and space for a child to reconsider the conviction that they were born in the wrong body, so they can be stopped from going down a pathway of hormones and surgery, which sterilises them and can leave them with no adult sexual function.

[Christian Wakeford]

The hon. and learned Lady is making a powerful speech; I do not fully agree with it, but it is powerful none the less. It sounds very much as though she is insinuating that this is a trend or phase that young people and children will grow out of. Will she clarify that point?

[Joanna Cherry]

What I said, if the hon. Gentleman was listening, was that many young girls are confused, have gender dysphoria, want to be a boy and find the onset of puberty deeply alarming. There is a lot of internalised lesbophobia and internalised misogyny in our country at the moment, and I do not want the state to say that there must be an assumption that any girl who wants to be a boy should be told that she can become a boy. She needs to be allowed to explore whether that feeling comes from internalised lesbophobia or internalised misogyny. Sure, some of those girls may be trans, but the stats from the GIDS clinic show that most are lesbians. I do not want lesbians to be transed away. Staff at the GIDS clinic have expressed concern that that is what is happening.

As I said, many of the children who go down the medical pathway are same-sex attracted, and some of them are autistic. Of the first 70 adolescents referred to the Amsterdam clinic that pioneered puberty blockers for children, 62 were homosexual and only one was heterosexual. I am concerned that that is a form of modern conversion therapy. I want young women, particularly those who may be lesbians, to be able to discuss what is making them wish they had been born a boy, with professional support if necessary, before they embark on life-changing treatment with puberty blockers, which could leave them permanently infertile and undergoing surgery to remove their breasts. There are documented examples of girls going through the procedure, deeply regretting it and wanting to de-transition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stuart Andrew]

Thank you. That is very nice. Society has moved on, but some people are still subjected to pretty horrific experiences.

[Christian Wakeford]

I thank the Minister for giving way and for the careful thought he is putting into his responses, especially in sharing his experience. My sympathy goes out to him for having had to endure it.

If the Prime Minister supports a ban—I think we all support a ban, although what it might look like is open to debate—surely the earlier we start pre-legislative scrutiny, the sooner we can answer these questions. We do not necessarily need to wait for reports to be finished; they can be added into the scrutiny as and when they are complete. Surely we should have the conversations and scrutiny now and feed into the process later. Does the Minister agree?

[Stuart Andrew]

I hope it will not be too much longer before the hon. Gentleman enjoys the opportunity to put that suggestion forward. I hope the House will understand what I am trying to get at.

During my time as Minister for Equalities, to ensure that I fully understand all the viewpoints and concerns, departmental officials and I have engaged with a wide range of stakeholders on conversion practices, including with victims and survivors, LGBT rights groups, healthcare professionals, faith groups and groups advocating for sex-based rights. I am grateful to the stakeholders and the victims who have provided their testimonials and contributions through the Government’s public consultation. I am also grateful to everyone here for taking the time to consider and inform debate on how best to tackle this issue.

These sensitive issues must be discussed in a respectful and tolerant way, in line with our shared values. As we know, with such strength of feeling, the debate and rhetoric has the potential to become divisive and toxic. I am therefore encouraged by the many Members of the House and members of the public who get their points across while remaining open and respectful towards those holding differing views. We must remember that these discussions concern the lives of real people, not theoretical scenarios or sensationalist headlines, and that all individuals deserve to be spoken about and treated with dignity and compassion. In the same way, all victims of conversion practices deserve adequate, free and confidential support. That is why the Government continue to fund a support service open to all victims and those at risk of conversion practices, regardless of their background or circumstances. The support service is operated by Galop, the UK’s leading LGBT anti-violence charity. It combines decades of expertise with an approach of patience and empathy. The confidential service is open to anyone who is currently experiencing, has previously experienced or is at risk of experiencing conversion practices. The service helps people to not only to report their situation, but to access tailored support and guidance on relevant external assistance such as counselling or emergency housing. I encourage anyone affected by or at risk of conversion practices to contact the service as soon as possible so that they can get the help they need.

Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Bury South and all colleagues who have contributed to the debate. I personally understand the significance of a Bill; I will do everything I can to ensure that we can get to pre-legislative scrutiny as soon as possible, and I hope that we can continue to work together towards our shared vision of a fairer and more inclusive society.

[Christian Wakeford]

I thank all hon. Members for their contributions. Although I may not necessarily agree with everything that everyone has said, we can disagree respectfully. These conversations need to take place, and I urge the Minister to bring forward pre-legislative scrutiny sooner rather than later.

Many Members could not be here today, including the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna Davison), and many other Members who have been mentioned, especially in the questions raised by the SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald). Many people in this place are deeply passionate about this conversation, and I am sure that a majority in the House would want to see delivery. Again, I urge the Minister for a timely response, but we will do what we can to help that process along the way. I thank all Members for their contributions and you, Ms Fovargue, for your chairmanship. Hopefully we can start the conversation moving forward from this point.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered Government policy on conversion practices.

Tackling Loneliness and Connecting Communities

Christian Wakeford Excerpts

Wednesday 21st June 2023 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

I only jest—I would never do that.

I was referring to the importance of Men’s Sheds, and the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) had just intervened on me. It is so important to have that cup of tea, chat and social engagement. Men’s Sheds are springing up all over my constituency, as I mentioned earlier, and the rationale is clear: let men come together and learn to talk freely, to express themselves and to help each other.

[Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Lab)]

While we are talking about loneliness, there is a stigma around mental health issues, especially for men, which can lead to suicide. While we support the important work of Men’s Sheds, there are also fantastic organisations like Andy’s Man Club rocking up all over the country. Anything we can do to help prevent that stigma, we should be doing.

[Jim Shannon]

It is wonderful when we all hear in these debates about the organisations, individuals and volunteers who reach out to try to make people’s lives better. It is not just Men’s Sheds either. Another wonderful project that has sprung up in my constituency of Strangford is the Ards Community Network, where the wonderful Cathy Polley has secured funding for projects aimed at women who need support from others. I mentioned the Men’s Sheds; I also want to mention the good things that have come from the women’s projects. The team there provide yoga classes and mummy-daughter evenings in which women from all areas of the community can come together and learn new skills, or just have a chat with a cup of tea and a Fox’s biscuit—or maybe another biscuit—and relax. Again, it is so encouraging and helpful that so many women of different ages who may not have naturally met are now meeting and bonding. That is what it is all about: reaching out and doing more. The wonderful work in communities is only achieved with funding. In these days of austerity, community groups that put on funded events connect those who need it most—those who are struggling financially, who cannot meet their friends for a dinner out or take their children to the cinema, or who feel constrained.

The hon. Member for Batley and Spen made an important point about what families do: sometimes when you haven’t got the money, you sit in the house, you do not bring your friends round and you cannot go to anybody else’s house. Those are real problems. I am pleased that in my constituency of Strangford we see the Men’s Sheds and the women’s groups thriving. The young farmers’ club, which I spoke about earlier, reaches out in the countryside. We have more suicides among men in rural communities in Northern Ireland than anywhere else in the United Kingdom. That tells me of the pressures of isolation and loneliness. Like others, there are times when on a nice day it is just me and the dog. It gives me a chance to think and to switch off. But for other people, that loneliness is all day and it becomes a real problem.

The debate underlines the message to the Minister: no one has to feel alone. We can help, and that help starts with the funding initiatives and volunteer initiatives that allow young farmers’ clubs or local community groups to speak to and reach into people’s lives. We are blessed to be the Members of Parliament for our constituencies. We have our ears close to the ground, we hear what people are saying, and we are pleased to recognise all those who do good work, reach out and help people. What a great day it is whenever we as MPs are able to make lives better—that is what it is really all about.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq.

Loneliness kills. It does not discriminate, and it does not care how much money someone has, what career they have done or who they are. As has been outlined in the debate, without the right support at the right time, loneliness can very quickly move from a temporary feeling to a chronic state, and damage both our physical and mental health. A study in 2015 found that feeling lonely is as bad for people’s health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Last year, another study found that only 3% of people who feel regularly lonely feel that life is worth living. Just think about that for a moment. Place yourself in those people’s shoes and imagine feeling so lonely—without people, without hope and without support—that you would rather not be alive. That is the case for millions of people across this country.

Many lonely people describe themselves as feeling trapped, without purpose and frustrated. Loneliness is devastating for our physical and mental health, and therefore has a detrimental impact on our public services as well. We had an opportunity in this country to reconnect with people, to engage with communities and to almost start again after the pandemic. If there was one silver lining from that time, it was that we all came together to reach out to those who were lonely, whether it was to help with prescriptions and shopping, or just calling a neighbour. I do not think that we will soon forget how helpless and isolating the pandemic made many of us feel, because although we were connected to everyone, we were not connected to anyone at the same time.

[Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)]

To amplify the hon. Gentleman’s point, one of the things that the pandemic taught us all was the psychological impact of being lonely, because we were disconnected from our usual social networks. Does he think that there would be much value in public health messaging that, as well as emphasising the need to maintain our physical wellbeing by looking after our health and avoiding obesity, and the need to look after our mental health, started to articulate good social health, too?

[Christian Wakeford]

I do not know what to say, other than I agree wholeheartedly with what the hon. Member says. Far too often we talk about physical health, and we keep on talking about parity with mental health, but we certainly do not talk about social health. It is only when we get all three working that we can truly thrive not only as individuals, but as a nation.

As I was saying, I do not think that we will soon forget how helpless and isolating the pandemic made many of us feel, but we were the lucky ones. We had a job to go to. We often had family around us and processes to distract us. We were grinning and bearing it, but imagine what it must have felt like for those without any of that, who were already isolated and who became increasingly more so because of a global pandemic. They were waiting for the phone to ring, as days or even weeks went by without a knock on the door and with no one to speak to. Even it was a political canvasser who people did not want to see, that might have been their only contact for some time.

Post pandemic, however, I fear that we have missed the moment. I really hope I am wrong on that, because loneliness needs to be at the forefront of decision makers’ minds. As the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) said, from house building to transport connections, social policy, charity work and sporting elements, we need a truly holistic and wraparound solution to tackle loneliness, and we need to start it now. I do not want to make this issue party political, though, because I think we can all agree that we want to make loneliness a thing of the past. As my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen (Kim Leadbeater) said, we should all grasp the Government’s strategy for loneliness with both hands, but I would like them to look at providing more money in the area. In the grand scheme of things, the spending costs are not that great a deal, but the social impact really is huge.

I truly welcome today’s debate, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford for securing it. It is not only timely, but very necessary. By raising this crucial issue today, we can reach out to people in our communities. We can talk again about social prescribing, as we have done in this debate. Fantastic groups in my constituency and across the country, such as Incredible Edible in Radcliffe and Prestwich, are not only doing great work in community growing, but making sure that people have the choice of being able to speak to someone. By working together, we can reduce the stigma surrounding loneliness and, ultimately, tackle it once and for all.

[Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)]

I call the first of the Front Benchers—for the SNP, Peter Grant.