Bombardier

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Tuesday 10th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Greg Clark]

I can give that complete assurance to the hon. Gentleman. I think this does unite everyone in the House and across all parts of Northern Ireland, and indeed the island of Ireland. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has again been assiduous in ensuring that no stone is unturned in making the case, as have the leader of the hon. Gentleman’s party and others in Northern Ireland.

A point on which I did not answer the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon)—I apologise—was about our contacts with other people in the US system: congressmen, senators and governors. That has been carried out, again in complete co-ordination with the Canadian Government, and it has been significantly helped by the cordial relations that exist between the United States and many people in Ireland.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

These events put me in mind of those in the 1970s, when the American aerospace industry ran an aggressive campaign against sales of Concorde, spiking any sales of that plane at the time. Does the Secretary of State agree that the motivation for Boeing is not about a trade dispute, but about wiping out a competitor? This situation on its own would be serious enough as it is, but does he also agree that, taken with the statement earlier about the problems at BAE Systems, this is a defining moment for the British aerospace sector as a whole and that we need strong Government support across the sector?

[Greg Clark]

I think these are separate issues. This is a trade dispute—an unjustified complaint that Boeing has brought against Bombardier. It is important that it should be thrown out and the case dismissed. As for the motivation for it, that is for Boeing to describe. It has alleged that this is unfair competition. All I would observe is that it is difficult to point to competition when the product does not compete with an existing Boeing product, so Boeing’s longer-term motivations will need to be justified to the International Trade Commission.

BAE Systems Military Air & Information Sites: Job Losses

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Tuesday 10th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Claire Perry]

The hon. Lady should be incredibly proud of the fact that one of the highest rates of jobs creation has been in Yorkshire and the north-east. We have to support our industries, which we do through our procurement strategy and our support for exports. I was told that in the recent years to 2015, the county of Yorkshire created more jobs than the whole of France. We should be celebrating that success.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

In order to be competitive, we have to retain the skills that it looks like we are going to lose, but things are going in the wrong direction. Has the Minister seen the estimates from Unite that suggest that 25% of our defence expenditure by 2020 will be in the United States alone? Are we not missing a defence industrial strategy that will stem that, so that we are paying people for skilled jobs, not to be unemployed?

[Claire Perry]

I am happy to look at the sums, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman understands that we have to ensure that we are buying the technology we need from the best places across the world when we are supporting our future defence capabilities. We are continuing to invest in and support this vital sector. He will be pleased to know that we are working closely with Unite and other unions where we are producing industrial strategy sector deals. The role and commitment of the workers that—particularly in the steel industry—has been vital in getting us to where we are cannot be underestimated. That is why the door is open for consultations and conversations with workers, the unions and colleagues from across the House.

Blacklisting

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Westminster Hall

[Chuka Umunna]

I completely agree; I have met my right hon. Friend’s constituent. In the end, we need the inquiry because we need to know who knew what was going on. It was happening not just in the private sector but in the public sector. There are allegations that it was going on at the Olympic sites, Portcullis House and Ministry of Defence sites. Who knew it was going on? Did the permanent secretaries or the Ministers at the time know? Were the Departments that commissioned construction projects complicit in it? We do not know. Does the law need to be changed or tightened? To what extent is it still going on?

Each time we have debated the issue here the coalition and subsequent Conservative Governments have specifically refused to set up a public inquiry, saying that there is little evidence that blacklisting still goes on. Today I will present compelling evidence showing that the practice is definitely still going on, and that it is happening on one of the biggest construction sites in Europe—Crossrail, a publicly funded project that I have visited. Let us not forget that a construction worker died after being crushed by falling wet concrete, in March 2014, and that two other men were seriously injured in separate incidents in January 2015, working on Crossrail tunnels around the Fisher Street area in central London. In July this year the contractors concerned, BAM, Ferrovial, Keir— the BFK consortium—pleaded guilty to three offences following an investigation by the Health and Safety Executive, and were fined more than £1 million. The HSE said that had simple measures such as properly implemented exclusion zones in high-hazard areas been taken, all three incidents could have been prevented. That shows why it is so important that construction workers should feel free to raise health and safety issues without fear of retribution.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend outlines the human cost to the blacklisted workers and their families, which is almost the point that I want to make; but is there not also a sinister reason—intimidation of those engaged in legitimate trade union activity, to boost profits, often at the cost of the lives of a company’s own workers?

[Chuka Umunna]

My hon. Friend makes a good point: to what extent is profit being put before safety? Why is there such paranoia when employees and workers raise such issues? I find that hard to fathom, given the fatalities that occur in the construction sector.

The first case that I want to mention concerns surveillance of workers that took place at a peaceful demonstration at a Crossrail site in 2016. I have seen and read emails that passed and were circulated between contractors and the employee relations department at Crossrail, which detail questionable surveillance practices. The surveillance operations involved named individuals who were implicated in and involved with the activities of the Consulting Association. The evidence that I will supply to the Minister after the debate shows that a number of construction workers were being closely watched there, and that sensitive personal information was being collected in relation to them. It is not clear where those data were subsequently posited or by precisely whom, but those collecting information on the workers had to fill in a form, which was definitely filed somewhere.

Two of the workers who were subject to that surveillance have since sought to obtain further employment on Crossrail through employment agencies advertising positions. In each case they approached the job agency about the vacancy, and had the required skills to fill it. However, as soon as they relayed their names there was a delay; they were subsequently given an excuse as to why the positions had been filled. Unite does not believe that what happened to the two workers is coincidental, and it has already informed the Information Commissioner’s Office of its concerns about the case. Clearly, subcontractors were explicitly discouraged from employing certain known trade union members. One subcontractor has actually told Unite that the consequences of his employing a Unite member would be the refusal of future work. For obvious reasons, the subcontractor does not wish to disclose their identity.

The Information Commissioner’s Office, having been contacted about this, has stated that the evidence

“raises the possibility that surveillance is being undertaken without appropriate checks and balances being in place”

and that the

“collection of this type of data is potentially excessive”

under the law.

The second case that I want to highlight is that of an electrician who has been trying to obtain work in the construction industry since raising a grievance while working on Crossrail. He has since applied for hundreds of job vacancies, almost always being turned down. He never received any criticism about the quality of his work. He is an intelligent young guy, who is conscientious about his work and who takes his health and safety duties to himself and his colleagues particularly seriously. He is not particularly political: he is a construction worker and his focus is his work. He served Crossrail with a subject access request that compelled it to provide him with the information it held on him. I have been passed the documents and had a chance to read them. They reveal that Crossrail and three of its contractors exchanged personal data, and sensitive personal data, concerning the individual’s previous employment and the issues and grievances that he had raised there. On the face of it, the data appear to have been processed for the purpose of determining the individual’s suitability for employment related to his trade union activities. The very strong inference from the documents is that some kind of vetting operation was in operation between Crossrail, its contractors and the agencies involved. Again, I will pass the information and the documents to the Minister after the debate.

Those are just two examples, but clearly they show that blacklisting is still going on. I do not think that it is being carried out in the way that it was before, with a centralised system collectively funded by the construction companies, not least because for those caught under the data protection legislation there is a much bigger fine, and the blacklisting regulations are also in force, of course. However, clearly it is still being done, but in a more covert way, making it a lot harder to identify.

The ICO has said it will put out a call for evidence about ongoing blacklisting next year. It should really get on and put out the call for evidence now, without further delay; but it is no substitute for the public inquiry that we seek. The ultimate way to get to the bottom of what happened and is still happening is a proper investigation of that kind. The law clearly needs to be reviewed, even though the Minister told me earlier in the year that that was not necessary. I would like workers to be given a positive right not to be blacklisted. The suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (John Grogan) that it should be made a criminal offence was well made. I would also like protection against blacklisting to be extended to include trade union-related activities, as opposed to the current definition, “trade union activities”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

I did not actually intend to speak in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) mentioned the Shrewsbury case. That alleged conspiracy took place in my constituency, in the Bull and Stirrup. It was a bunch of fellows trying to defend their livelihoods, and that sore continues today, 40 years later.

My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Chuka Umunna), who led the debate—I pay tribute to his persistence on this issue—mentioned the attitudes of the Minister and the Government on this, which is that they do not want a public inquiry because blacklisting has stopped. However, whether in the Shrewsbury case from 40 years ago or for workers today, even if blacklisting had stopped, its effects—the poverty, the shame and, frankly, the humiliation—are still there for decent, hard-working, skilled men and women who have been denied that livelihood and have been suffering the economic consequences ever since. The effects, the human consequences and, above all, the sense of injustice are still with us.

We cannot turn our back on that sense of injustice, whether for the families of Des Warren and Ricky Tomlinson in my constituency 40 years ago—it was not my constituency then, but I will still lay claim to it—or for the other men and women who have suffered perhaps thousands and thousands of pounds of financial loss and heaven knows what kind of human and psychological damage and who are still living with the consequences of that today. Even if blacklisting is not taking place—I am minded to agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham that it is—the consequences are. I believe the Government have a responsibility to address those current consequences.

Oral Answers to Questions

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Greg Clark]

The self-employed have an important role to play. One trend that colleagues on both sides of the House will know of is that the development of supply chains is one of the key sources of innovation in many industries. Within that, start-up businesses, including those run by the self-employed, can make a big contribution to making us attractive for jobs and new businesses.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

12. If he will make an assessment of the effectiveness of his sector-based approach in delivering the aims of the Government’s industrial strategy.

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

16. What steps the Government is taking to ensure that all sectors of the economy benefit from its industrial strategy.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Greg Clark)]

We have had great success over the years in developing key sectors, including aerospace and the automotive sector. To build on this, we have set out proposals for new business-led sector deals in the industrial strategy. The first set of deals is already under development. We are taking steps to drive growth in sectors across the economy, including with funding for science, infrastructure and technical education.

[Christian Matheson]

Does the Secretary of State share my concern that the implementation of an industrial strategy led by the big players will focus solely on the big players? What is he doing to ensure that the small and medium-sized enterprises in those sectors, which are often the engine rooms, get their fair say and their fair share?

[Greg Clark]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that that is not the case. I have regular discussions with the Federation of Small Businesses, the British Chambers of Commerce and smaller businesses right across the country. The supply chain, and making our country more attractive to supply chain businesses, are absolutely foundational to our industrial success, and that involves a particular regard for small businesses.

Opel/Vauxhall: Sale to PSA Group

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Monday 6th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Greg Clark]

I will indeed. As soon as we heard about these proposals, my colleagues and I engaged immediately with the management and the unions of this country and with our counterparts. My engagement in our activity will not let up in the weeks ahead. These assurances are welcome, as everyone has noted, but we need to make sure that they are implemented in practice.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

I echo the thanks to the Secretary of State for his efforts to keep those of us with a constituency interest involved. I am most grateful to him. Does he accept that our car industry is at a competitive disadvantage compared with those in other European countries because of the way that business rates operate, and that when new plant is installed, it increases business rate costs? Will he speak to his colleagues in the Government to see if we can find a way around this disincentive to invest?

[Greg Clark]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind words, but I remind him and colleagues that this country is a competitive place in which to do business, including in the car manufacturing sector. Different countries will have different policies. I am determined to make sure that we are competitive and that we remain competitive so that we can expand our production in the future.

Vauxhall/Opel: Proposed Takeover

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Greg Clark]

It is important to reflect on the context: our reputation as an open economy that attracts overseas investment is one of the foundations of our success. We need to maintain that success and reputation. We have said that we will bring forward proposals, as we will regarding corporate governance. We will do that in due course and I will update the House at that time.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

As a trade union official, I supported the management and workers at Ellesmere Port through new model bidding processes three times. Each time, they demonstrated themselves to be productive, efficient and flexible, and their plant to be profitable. Unfortunately, those attributes cut no ice with Peugeot, which has form in this area, as any Coventry Member will attest. May I suggest that the Secretary of State uses this opportunity to beef up his industrial strategy? I also suggest that any public procurement of motor vehicles, for example by police forces, local authorities and Government Departments, should involve only the purchase of cars from companies that build in the UK, and that those that choose not to build in the UK should not be considered?

[Greg Clark]

Of course, I discussed with PSA the context of its closure of the Coventry plant. It was pointed out to me that the company has new management and a different approach was described. These are early stages, but that was a better message to receive than the alternative. However, like the hon. Gentleman, I want to ensure that it is reflected in practice. On procurement, it is obviously important that we get good value for money, and we have changed the procurement rules to take into account some of these wider impacts.

Draft Trade Union Act 2016 (Political Funds) (Transition Period) Regulations 2017

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2017 General Committees

[Margot James]

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the Government consulted widely with individual unions, the TUC and the certification officer on the length of time deemed reasonable for the transition period. The unions gave differing views. Many have lobbied us for longer than 12 months, but, taken in the round, the Government have decided that 12 months is a reasonable amount of time for unions to introduce the necessary changes to comply with the legislation.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

First, I declare my membership of the Unite and GMB trade unions, in common with my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth. What was the point of consulting if the Government were simply going to ignore every response they received ?

[Margot James]

We conducted a consultation and took it seriously. We listened to people’s views and arrived at a judgment. I remind the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members that this is not news to the trade unions concerned. It passed into law last May, following intensive debate on the Floor of the House and a great deal of publicity. In effect, the unions have had more than 12 months to introduce the necessary changes to their systems.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gill Furniss]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The rulebook is there for the benefit of everybody—employers and members—and it is a well-trodden path that has always succeeded. I ask the Minister whether there is another example of anyone in civic society who has been treated in this way. That would be an interesting concept.

[Christian Matheson]

I can answer my hon. Friend’s question. There are other elements of civil society that the Government are treating in this way: charities and campaign groups. The Government have cut their funding and restricted their campaigning activities so that they do not attack the Government.

[Gill Furniss]

I think there may be some merit in that point.

I will make some progress now. Let us be clear: the Trade Union Act is the most significant, sustained and partisan attack on ordinary workers in a generation, and the fact that the Government claim that it will increase fairness for trade unions and workers, while forcing them to act against their own democratic processes and principles by rushing through these changes, once again reveals the hypocrisy.

Will the Minister concede that the Government have been hasty in their approach to implementing the Act at the potential expense of trade unions and workers? Will they extend the transition period—which, for the reasons we have already outlined, is insufficient—by at least six months, so that legislation can be followed and trade union rules, processes and democratic principles properly respected?

For all the reasons I have laid out, I am afraid I cannot support the draft regulations and we wish to divide the Committee on the matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christian Matheson]

It is a great pleasure to see you in the Chair today, Mr Stringer. The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham expressed surprise about why so many Opposition Members are pleased to declare our trade union membership. I will tell him why that is: it is because we actually know what we are talking about, first, on how trade unions operate, and secondly, on the practical aspects of how the regulations will affect the day-to-day operations of trade unions. To be honest, I have some sympathy for the Minister, who has been sent out to bat on a subject that she clearly—through no fault of her own—knows very little about, so let me enlighten her.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am trying to ascertain how much each Labour Member receives from trade unions in the course of doing their job. I am not criticising the fact that they are members of the trade union. I applaud that link, but I think it is pertinent to this discussion how much the hon. Gentleman gets every year from a trade union.

[Christian Matheson]

I am going to have to make this simple. I pay a monthly membership subscription. I give money to the trade unions. That is what this is all about—membership money. The hon. Gentleman asks how much we get from them, but I do not get anything from them. I pay them money. The hon. Gentleman is entitled to ask that question. He is asking from a position of ignorance because he simply does not understand how trade unions work.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

The intervention shows what lies behind this anti-democratic measure. In the mind of the Tories, this is the way the Labour party is funded and the way our democracy operates, and they want a one-party state. Through the resources available to them, they want to dominate the political process in this country. They cannot abide the fact that working people fund a political party to put working-class people’s representatives in the biggest debating chambers in this country. That is what they cannot abide and that is what is behind this legislation.

[Christian Matheson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. My great-grandfather—my maternal grandmother’s father—worked on Liverpool docks. He was killed when my grandmother was five years old. Trade unions came into existence initially to improve local terms and conditions in individual workplaces, but it soon became obvious that improving local terms and conditions would not solve the national problems. Individual workers therefore grouped together to try to get national representation to change the law in favour of individual working people. My hon. Friend is right—there is a history to this. Sadly, there is also a history to what the Government are doing now. As I mentioned in my intervention—

[The Chair]

Order. May I remind right hon. and hon. Members that the piece of legislation before us is very narrowly drawn? I have been as relaxed as is possible, but I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman related his comments to the regulations.

[Christian Matheson]

I am grateful for your guidance, Mr Stringer. Forgive me if my concern about the ignorance of Government Members prompted me to go a little beyond the instrument.

Let me talk instead about my own experience of having to implement procedures of the sort set out in the instrument. I used to work for a trade union—it was called Manufacturing, Science and Finance, then Amicus, and then it became Unite—and rose to a position where, as well as industrial responsibilities, I had to manage, for example, trade union ballots when we had ballots every 10 years—the Better Regulation Task Force at the time said such ballots were onerous and unnecessary—in which 80% to 90% of members, right across the trade unions, always voted in favour of having a political fund. The Minister talked about online membership, and I believe that more members join online now, but in my time on our membership forms there was a clear tick-box to allow the individual to opt in to or out of the political fund. The idea that we sneaked those things through is incorrect.

[Chris Stephens]

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that some trade unions, such as Unison, have two sections of the one political fund, and that members therefore have a choice as to whether they want to give to an affiliated political fund or a general one?

[Christian Matheson]

Unison’s affiliated political fund is an important part of its union operations, but so is its non-affiliated fund to which members can choose to contribute. Later in my time at Unite, I was asked to manage its complaints process, because we received complaints from time to time. In the two and a half years I managed that complaints process, I received not one complaint about the management of either the political fund or the opt-out process. There was not one complaint, so quite why the Government went down this line in the first place I do not know.

The Minister made a point about conferences that are coming up this year. She again misunderstands the nature of those; different unions operate in different ways, but conferences tend to be constituted differently for different purposes. Some unions—Unite is one—have a rules conference every four years and a policy conference every couple of years. Those conferences are constituted differently according to the union’s rules. Unfortunately, if the Minister expects unions to convene special conferences, she perhaps might consider whether there will be Government compensation for the huge costs of having to convene those additional conferences—or maybe that is the point.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth made the point earlier that this is about piling further regulatory burdens and financial costs on unions, so that they cannot do their essential work of campaigning and representing working people everywhere. The original Bill is shabby; the terms of the statutory instrument are mean-minded and, I believe, politically motivated. In common with other Opposition Members, I will certainly be voting against it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Margot James]

I can only repeat what I said to the hon. Member for Glasgow South West. I am not going to repeat myself again. The regulations implement the Act’s provisions by providing for a 12-month transition period. We have taken a proportionate approach on the political funds opt-in transition.

[Christian Matheson]

rose—

[Margot James]

Sorry, I am not going to give way again. We have taken on board the comments from this debate as well as those during the consultation. Our view is that the 12-month period gives sufficient time.

Question put.

Industrial Strategy Consultation

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Greg Clark]

I was delighted to be back in Daresbury, which I have visited several times with my hon. Friend.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

I was born there.

[Greg Clark]

Clearly lots of good things happen in Daresbury—[Interruption.] Some better than others, it is pointed out—that is a little mean.

My hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) mentions two things. The first is the devolution through the local growth fund, which is making a big difference across the country by putting more funds in the hands of people with the knowledge of what is needed locally to make a difference. The second, of course, is the big investment in research and development, of which impressive facilities such as that in Daresbury will make good use.

--- Later in debate ---

[Greg Clark]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his words and for his contribution, which, as he will see when he reads it, features prominently in the Green Paper. It is an excellent idea, and I hope he will promote its success in the years ahead.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Last but certainly not least from the Opposition, I call the voice of Chester, Mr Chris Matheson.

[Christian Matheson]

I would hope not least, Mr Deputy Speaker.

The Science, Engineering and Manufacturing Technologies Alliance has calculated that there is an annual shortfall of 50,000 skilled engineers and that this will aggregate to about 800,000 by 2020. How does the Secretary of State plan to close that gap? While he is at the Dispatch Box, will he take the opportunity to scotch the recent press reports and confirm that all the steel in HS2 will be made at UK plants, including Shotton, where many of my constituents work?

[Greg Clark]

On the first point, it is clear that our investment in and focus on technical education goes precisely to meet the challenge that the hon. Gentleman identifies—around the gap between the needs of employers and the skills available in the workforce. On procurement for HS2, he will know that we have changed the guidelines to enable the contribution from British steel to be viewed on a fairer basis, but obviously that is part of a process that HS2 will need to go through to procure the product.

National Minimum Wage (Workplace Internships) Bill

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Friday 4th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Margot James)]

We have had a good debate, full of insight and good humour and I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) on all the work he has done examining the issue of unpaid internships and introducing his Bill today. Indeed, so rich was the debate that it is impossible to do justice to all the excellent contributions. My only disappointment was that my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) tantalised with his presence but confined his remarks to a few pertinent points, rather than giving us the benefit of the full panoply of his views on the matter. That was left to my hon. Friends the Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), who did not disappoint, and neither did my hon. Friends the Members for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins) and for North Devon (Peter Heaton-Jones). We have also heard some very good points from the hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Gill Furniss).

Those of us who have worked with my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell know that he is a tireless campaigner for interns’ rights. He made a personal pledge to act on unpaid internships and this Bill represents only the most recent stage in his impressive campaign to secure fairness of opportunity and equity of consideration for all entrants to the labour market regardless of their personal means or social background.

The principle lying behind and driving my hon. Friend’s efforts is the idea that work can be a powerful engine for social mobility, and the Prime Minister, who talks about her vision of a truly meritocratic Britain and building an economy that works for everybody, is very much of the same mind.

I want to take a little time to talk about the Government review set up by the Prime Minister at the beginning of last month. It will be headed by the chief executive of the Royal Society of Arts, Matthew Taylor, and is to look specifically at developments in modern working practices. I also want to speak about the national minimum wage and the living wage, and a little bit about Government enforcement through HMRC. I also want to address the provisions set out in the Bill.

First, let me make a few remarks about internships in the broader context and share a few points from my constituency experience. I have changed the names of the people I shall mention. The first of them is Susan. She was educated at a well-known public school. Her father was chairman of a public company and a donor to one of our two major political parties. He effected an introduction to the party chairman which resulted in a six-month unpaid internship for Susan at the party’s headquarters, and from the contacts she made there she was able to secure a second unpaid internship for a Member of Parliament.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

And then a safe seat.

[Margot James]

The hon. Gentleman takes my example a little too far, but one can only imagine such an outcome as being highly likely.

Now, let me introduce Jack. Jack’s father works for a landscape-gardening company and just about makes average earnings, and his wife works part-time as a carer. As a family, they are just about getting by and they think Jack will get on fine because he is a bright boy. But Jack is already disadvantaged by some of the choices he made at GCSE which ruled out the sort of A-levels the Russell Group universities favour. He has no contacts in London and his family cannot afford to support him through an unpaid internship. Unlike Susan I think Jack would probably be one of the 40% of young people my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell indicates would reject an internship if offered on an unpaid basis. Those case studies illustrate to me that my hon. Friend is really on to something in challenging the concept of unpaid internships under the conditions set out in his Bill.

However, we believe that good, worthwhile, genuine internships certainly have a part to play, alongside other routes such as work experience, apprenticeships, work placements and work shadowing, all of which we have heard a great deal about in our debate. I believe we all recognise that young people learning about the workplace, developing skills and getting training can produce networking opportunities in and of themselves. Employers can also benefit from fresh thinking and from finding potentially great new permanent employees to join their team in future.

There are many different types of internship. The Gateways to the Professions Collaborative Forum, for example, represents about 60 professional bodies. We have heard about the excellent programme of paid internships that is run from the Speaker’s quarters in this House. In the attempt to define high-quality apprenticeships as an arrangement whereby individuals work and can gain some compensation, there is also the prospect that they will develop professional skills and an understanding of a profession. Those are all good experiences and we would not want obstacles to their fulfilment to be created unnecessarily from any unintended consequences of legislation.

There are many excellent resources, such as the Government-backed graduate talent pool, which is an initiative designed to help new and recent graduates to gain real work experience across Government. It advertises quality internships with a range of desirable employers in numerous competitive sectors. Most significantly, 100% of the vacancies advertised through the graduate talent pool are for paid positions. A 2011 survey of more than 500 people registered with the pool found that over 60% of respondents were motivated to join in order to improve their long-term prospects and gain general work experience, and it showed that over 80% of interns would recommend the experience and scheme to others.

Another example is the popular RateMyPlacement website, which I heard my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley mention—I think in relation to some experience he offered to a young person from his constituency. Graduates and interns can share their experiences of placements anonymously on the site and often find specific guidance on such things as interviews and general careers advice.

There is an increasing wealth of information out there, for employers as much as anyone else, about what well-managed, high-quality internships look like. However, we all know that not all the internships we are debating today are good quality and properly managed, and I think we all, across the House, aspire to improve our system such that there ends up being just good-quality, preferably paid—and certainly compensated—internships in future.

Let me turn to the point that several hon. Members have made: that workers do have rights. Workers have a contract with their employer under which they perform work to agreement and both parties must get something of value from the arrangements. The contract does not have to be written and the value provided to the person performing the work might initially be the opportunity to gain experience or the promise of future work. Other factors to consider are whether a person has the right to send someone else to do the work and whether the person is better viewed as working for the employer rather than being engaged by an independent contractor.

A genuine worker has a “day one” right to be at least paid the appropriate national minimum wage or the national living wage if he or she is over 25. When a court looks at a person’s employment status, it will always consider the reality of their working arrangements and not just how those are described. Simply labelling someone as an intern is not enough to exempt them from the rights associated with being a worker.



However, there is no universally agreed or accepted definition of the term “intern”, despite many attempts to define it today. I sensed considerable sympathy for the view expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North that it was perhaps a glorified Americanism used to describe what is effectively work experience. We must acknowledge that there are bad examples of work experience and internships, but let me make it absolutely clear that the Government believe that all people in the UK are entitled to fair wages for fair work.

Oral Answers to Questions

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Tuesday 13th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) is a well-known exponent of what I might call the shoehorning technique. Whatever he wants to raise, he shoehorns it into a question somehow. He could probably write a book on the subject—and probably will.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

11. Whether his Department has received a copy of the report by PwC and the Solar Trade Association, published on 25 July 2016, on the state of the UK solar industry; and what his plans are for the future of solar power in the UK.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Jesse Norman)]

I welcome the question from a colleague I have enjoyed watching at work with his incisive questioning on the Culture, Media and Sport Committee—tragically, he is about to direct that questioning at me. I can assure him that my Department has received a copy of the PwC report and carefully noted its findings. As I have said, solar has been a great success story over the past few years. The goal, now that costs have been brought under control, is to move the industry towards having the capacity to deliver without subsidy.

[Christian Matheson]

I thank the Minister for his generous comments and for his time as Chair of the Select Committee that I serve on, and I wish him well in his new role.

The PwC report estimates that a third of jobs in solar have been lost in the past year, with a third of companies expecting to cut more staff in the next 12 months. As the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) and my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) have suggested, rateable value changes will affect the industry further. Will the Government take into account the cumulative effect and actually do something positive for the solar industry?

[Jesse Norman]

Of course I share the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about any job losses as a result of changes in the industry. I made some points earlier about the way in which the industry is changing, and I note that the report picked out the resilience of the industry and its capacity to respond to change, potentially including that offered by Brexit. I simply say that it is noticeable that many schemes are already close to being viable without subsidy, in certain circumstances, and the key now is to move further towards that. As I have said, we will look closely at the valuation issues he has highlighted today.