Finance Bill (Sixth sitting)

Christian Matheson Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

At the end of that process, to recover that cash, HMRC—believing it is still owed money by a taxpayer—can seek a court order, in the same way as anybody else who says they are owed money, using the court system; it might be the High Court or the county court. Why should HMRC be any different? I do not think it should be. Giving the rationale that—again to put a bit of a gloss on it—“The courts don’t work very well, so we’ll just bypass them”, is not acceptable.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West has given his usual detailed and forensic objections to the clause. Mine are a little bit more about the Minister’s tone and presentation. First, I associate myself with his comments about those who seek to evade their taxes. I have no time for such people. If people are able to pay their taxes, they should do so. That is the price that we pay for a having a stable society that is paid for by taxation. I have no time for people who are, frankly, freeloading on the hard work of others. The hon. Gentleman was correct on that.

My concern with the Minister’s presentation is the tone compared with the tone of the previous discussion about compliance for those who seek to hold their assets offshore. In the discussion on that clause, the hon. Gentleman seemed to suggest that enforcement action would be very much a last resort—a route that HMRC would not necessarily want to go down. With this measure, the enforcement action seems to be a whole lot tougher. If I am doing the hon. Gentleman a disservice, I apologise; this is a genuine point. The impression I get is that once again it seems easier, and the Government seem more ready, to go after, shall we say, the little man, rather than those who have substantial assets elsewhere. However unacceptable individual tax evasion is, I cannot help but wonder whether the real issue we face is large-scale corporate avoidance of tax. I realise that is not part of the clause, Sir Roger, but I hope you will allow me a little latitude. The Government are focusing on small individuals rather than tackling the big issues of corporate taxation. If I am doing the Minister a disservice, I apologise, but I felt that the tone of his presentation focused too much on smaller-scale enforcement.

[Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)]

I sympathise with some of what the hon. Gentleman says, but his party surely cannot be advocating that just because someone is a small person, they can avoid paying taxes. The Government are bringing in measures to tackle every level of tax avoidance. Clearly, some cases will be more obvious than others, but where someone has blindingly obviously not paid tax and has a cash asset, rather than go to the huge trouble and cost of taking them to court, seizing their assets and selling those assets, why is this the wrong thing to do? Surely we must collect tax from everybody who owes it.

[Christian Matheson]

I certainly do not think we should not take enforcement action against people who can but do not pay their taxes. That is not the issue. I agree with much of what the hon. Member for Wyre Forest said about enforcement for non-payers. I was slightly concerned that in the tone of what the Minister said, there was much more zeal for enforcement action at the lower end of the market than at the higher end. If that is a mistaken impression, I apologise, but there has to be more focus on large-scale corporate taxation, which may of course be covered in other parts of the Bill.

[Mr Gauke]

Let me say first that I am disappointed the Labour party will not be supporting the measure. I reiterate: these powers will be used at the end of an exhaustive process, whereby there will have been many opportunities for a debtor to have paid the debt and to have challenged the application of the debt to them. It is a measure targeted at individuals and businesses that are making an active decision not to pay or to delay paying the money they owe, despite having sufficient funds in their accounts and despite attempts by HMRC to contact them and encourage them to put their affairs in order. We must remember that we are talking about allowing £5,000 or so to remain in an account, so that people have the sums to make ends meet in the short term. I accept that court action is appropriate in some circumstances, but it imposes significant costs on both the debtor and HMRC.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gauke]

I come back to the practical operation of this power. Let us remember that the existence of this power will encourage some debtors to pay tax at an earlier stage in the process, knowing that HMRC is able to pursue them more effectively. In Committee, and on the Floor of the House, we often debate the need to reduce the tax gap. The shadow Chancellor made that point on the Floor of the House yesterday. Of course, the tax gap consists of many things, including corporate tax avoidance, which I did not specifically address in my remarks because this clause does not specifically relate to corporate tax avoidance, but these powers could apply to any debt owed to HMRC, including debt involving corporate tax avoidance. If it is determined that a debt is owed, HMRC may pursue it in that way.

[Christian Matheson]

Will the Minister confirm that this clause will not simply apply to personal accounts but will also apply to corporate and business accounts of corporations that owe tax?

[Mr Gauke]

The clause will apply to both individual and business accounts, so it could be used in such circumstances. I will not detain the Committee for long on this subject but, on corporate tax avoidance, we have strengthened the capabilities of HMRC’s large business teams, introduced a diverted profits tax and led the way on the OECD’s work on base erosion and profit shifting. The Government have a proud record in that area.

However one looks at the tax gap, and there are different views on the size of the tax gap, corporate tax avoidance is a relatively small proportion. Whether one looks at the authoritative and well-respected HMRC numbers or at Richard Murphy’s numbers, no one claims that corporate tax avoidance is a large part of the tax gap. That is not to say that corporate tax avoidance is not important. It is important, but we also need measures that address all types of people who fail to pay the taxes that are due.