Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Philp and Ruth Cadbury

Monday 15th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

I am pleased to tell the House that for this financial year, which started just a couple of weeks ago, Northumbria force’s funding has gone up by £28 million —a 7.6% increase and more than double the rate of inflation. The resources are there, but using those resources wisely is a matter for police and crime commissioners. Conservative police and crime commissioners tend to spend those resources most wisely.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

7. What steps his Department is taking to help tackle violence against shop workers.

Crime and Antisocial Behaviour: West London

Debate between Chris Philp and Ruth Cadbury

Monday 3rd July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

It is not me that is telling the hon. Gentleman that crime has reduced; it is the crime survey of England and Wales, endorsed by the Office for National Statistics. What he is talking about is the perception of crime, which is very important as well. It is important that people feel safe, and that is why we need to do more, but the figures are very clear. If he doubts them, I honestly recommend that he looks at the crime survey statistics, because they actually make for quite comforting reading. The perception of crime is important and there is more to do.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the deployment of neighbourhood officers. How the record number of officers are deployed is an operational matter for the commissioner, Sir Mark Rowley, and the police and crime commissioner for London, Mayor Sadiq Khan. The hon. Gentleman’s representations would be well directed to them, but London has never in its history had a greater total number of officers. I agree that having them on neighbourhood deployment is valuable. The hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth said that an extra 20 officers are part of a newly established town centre team. The same is true of Croydon, which also has about 20 extra officers, and that is very welcome and useful. In addition to officers, we also need bases from which they can patrol. I am sure that Labour Members will join me in calling on the Mayor of London Sadiq Khan to ditch his plan, announced in 2017, to close 37 police stations. I notice that, miraculously and for reasons that I cannot imagine, he has just decided to cancel the closure plan for Uxbridge police station. Let us hope that he cancels the closure plans for the other 36 police stations.

Let me move on to the importance of prevention. We have talked about police stations, officers and the importance of their being deployed in the neighbourhood, but prevention is important, too. The hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth referred to the Mayor of London’s violence reduction partnership, and in the next breath she said that the Government had been bystanders. What she forgot to mention was that the so-called Mayor of London’s violence reduction partnership is entirely funded by the Government. For some reason, she omitted to mention that. I am glad to say that violence reduction units, or partnerships, have received £170 million of Government funding. They do valuable work in providing diversionary activity. The Youth Endowment Fund, which has £200 million over 10 years, identifies the best kinds of intervention and funds them, as well as cognitive behavioural therapy, which helps many young people.

We have an antisocial behaviour action plan, which was launched by the Prime Minister just a couple of months ago and is being rolled out as we speak. It has a number of elements; I will not detain the House by going through all of them at this late hour, but I will mention a couple. One is hotspot patrolling: antisocial behaviour hotspots are identified, and police officers are “surged” into those areas. Ten police force areas around the country are conducting pilots during the current financial year. I spoke to the police and crime commissioners about it today, and all the pilots will be up and running this month. From next April, every police force in the country—all 43 of the forces in England and Wales—will have hotspot policing, and there will be just over £1 million for each police force to fund the ASB patrols. That will be welcome, and will address some of the issues that the hon. Lady raised.

There will also be 10 immediate justice pilots, again funded with about £1 million for each force, and starting this month. People who take part in antisocial behaviour will very quickly—ideally within 48 hours—have to undertake restorative work such as removing graffiti or cleaning up a park or a high street, wearing branded hi-vis jackets. Once the pilots have been completed this year, every police force in the country, from next April, will have an immediate justice project, again fully funded by the Government with £1 million for each police force—about £43 million in total. We are banning nitrous oxide, which I think will also help on the antisocial behaviour front. I hope Members will agree that the antisocial behaviour action plan, of which those measures are just a small part, will help us to clamp down on ASB in our communities. The total funding for the plan is about £160 million.

In the moments remaining to us, let me commend the safer streets fund. The hon. Lady mentioned CCTV in an alleyway, which may well have ultimately been funded by the fund. London has so far received about £3.2 billion. The fund is designed to fund measures such as CCTV to help people feel safer on the streets, with particular emphasis on women’s safety but with the aim of combating ASB more widely as well. We will shortly announce the next safer streets funding round.

We take vehicle and bicycle theft very seriously—the incidence of both has fallen dramatically, and I think that bicycle theft may have fallen by as much as 65% since 2010—and we also take catalytic converter thefts very seriously. We had a spate of those in Croydon. I was told by our borough commander that a gang had been arrested a few months ago, and since then we have seen a big reduction, certainly in south London, although I am not sure whether the same is true in west London. We experienced a big drop about six months ago, when that gang was arrested. The Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013—which began as a private Member’s Bill, taken through the House by my constituency predecessor, Sir Richard Ottaway—has helped a great deal. The Bill was originally inspired by thefts of lead from church roofs, but it is also making it harder, although sadly not impossible, to sell the rare earth metals to be found in catalytic converters. We are working on that with the National Vehicle Crime Working Group.

[Ruth Cadbury]

I did ask whether there would be a review of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act. It is clearly not working, because we are still experiencing spates of catalytic converter theft.

[Chris Philp]

My predecessor’s private Member’s Bill, now the Scrap Metal Dealers Act, has dramatically reduced the theft of scrap metal from things like church roofs, which is what inspired his PMB 10 years ago, but we are always happy to look at whether the legislation can be strengthened. Broadly, the Act deals with metal, but I would be very happy to respond if the hon. Lady would like to write to me with specific proposals for how it could be improved or for how regulations could be strengthened.

It is welcome that crime has fallen so much since 2010 and that we have record numbers of police officers—more than we have ever had in England and Wales, and more than we have ever had in London, too—but we all accept that there is more to do to fight crime. This Government are committed to doing that, whether through the safer streets fund, violence reduction units or the ASB action plan. When we need to do something, we will do it. I look forward to working with Members across the House to keep our constituents safe.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Philp and Ruth Cadbury

Monday 22nd May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

My hon. Friend raises an important issue. The Government recently published our antisocial behaviour action plan. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary and her colleague the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities are jointly chairing a taskforce to ensure that action is taken. We are setting up a number of hotspot patrols around the country to ensure that the blight of antisocial behaviour is heavily policed against and that, where it occurs, it is dealt with quickly and thoroughly and no one is left behind.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

T7.   If the Home Secretary insists on exempting private landlords from minimum housing standards for asylum seekers, local councils and fire authorities will not be able to enforce basic safety and overcrowding standards. Does that not mean that the worst landlords, instead of improving their properties, will make a fortune from Government funding while exploiting vulnerable families and young children who are waiting years for a decision on their asylum application?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Philp and Ruth Cadbury

Monday 19th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

I agree entirely with the sentiment that the hon. Gentleman expresses. It is vital to stop younger people, perhaps early and mid-teenagers, falling into gang culture. Very often that is because they have suffered from family breakdown or are in difficult social circumstances. One action we are taking, which we need to accelerate and increase, is introducing violence reduction units. They are designed to identify individual young people at risk of falling into gangs, including county lines activities, and to take interventions, whether through social services, education or other interventions, to try to put them back on the right track. That is a Home Office-funded programme that we intend to continue, but the diagnosis the hon. Gentleman makes is exactly right.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

On that very point, last week I met an inspiring group of young students at West Thames College who are studying full time and having to work two or three jobs to make ends meet. It has not been easy for them. The message they asked me to bring here was that the best way to protect young people from going down a different route and getting sucked into county lines and violent crime is to have adequate, accessible and fully funded youth services. Does the Minister therefore regret the Government’s cuts to local councils since 2010, which have led to the decimation of universal youth provision?

[Chris Philp]

I have already referred to the significant amounts of money being put into violence reduction units, including funding some of the activity that the hon. Lady refers to—although it is not just that, it is much wider. It is important to divert younger people away from a life of crime and a gang culture that can all too easily take hold. It is for precisely that reason that we have established the well-funded violence reduction units, including in the London constituencies that both she and I represent.

Independent Cultural Review of London Fire Brigade

Debate between Chris Philp and Ruth Cadbury

Monday 28th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

No: to be completely clear, for I think the third time, I have said that I will ask His Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services to take a look at these issues. It obviously inspects the 44 fire and rescue services and the 43 police forces regularly. It can also—if it chooses, because it is independent of course—conduct thematic reviews on issues such as this, and I will be raising the issue with it.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

I really appreciate that the Minister is appalled by the findings in this report, but he should not really be shocked, as successive reports from His Majesty’s inspectorate have shown similar findings. Why does he think that successive Conservative Governments have ignored the warnings in those reports?

[Chris Philp]

I would say, with great respect, that the reports have not been ignored. As I have said already, a White Paper was published just a short while ago with a number of very detailed and specific recommendations designed to address precisely these kinds of issues, so with respect, I do not accept the characterisation the hon. Lady has set out. Clearly, from this report, urgent action is needed in London, and that is why the 23 recommendations will be implemented in full. I think the commissioner, Andy Roe, has accepted that. I will be discussing the issue with the Mayor of London’s office as well.

Police Service: HMI Report

Debate between Chris Philp and Ruth Cadbury

Thursday 3rd November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

Of course I agree that leadership is important, including setting clear standards and, for example, ensuring that those statutory guidelines were put in place in 2017. Leadership is important, and I believe this Home Secretary and the previous Home Secretary, who commissioned this report and the Angiolini review in the first place, have discharged those responsibilities. The hon. Gentleman is also right to allude to the fact that the police are rightly operationally independent; we must ensure that the institutions and structures are right, that police chiefs are supported as necessary, and that the College of Policing is setting the right standards. That is what many of the recommendations in this report seek to do.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

Jonathon Cobban and Joel Borders were serving police officers in Hounslow. Yesterday, they were sentenced to 12 weeks in prison for sharing the vilest misogynistic, racist, ableist and homophobic messages in a WhatsApp group that also included Wayne Couzens and others. In court, they showed no remorse. All those officers had been transferred in from the Civil Nuclear Constabulary to fill gaps in the Met. Is the Minister aware of a wider problem of officers being transferred between forces without any real vetting or suitability checks at the time of their transfer, and what is he doing about it to ensure not only that it does not happen again, but that all officers currently serving in the Met are fully vetted and, if they are found to have issues, are sacked from serving in any police force again?

[Chris Philp]

I share the hon. Lady’s horror at the case she describes, which was heard in her local area. It is a truly shocking case. On the question of transfers, one reason for the police uplift programme, hiring the extra 20,000 officers, is to ensure that there are no gaps that need to be filled. There are important recommendations among the 43 that address the question of vetting. On her point about checking the existing cadre of officers, I draw attention again to the point I made a few minutes ago about the regular rolling process of rechecking, which the report also refers to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Philp and Ruth Cadbury

Thursday 6th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

The minor reforms made as a result of the collapse of the Football Index by the Secretary of State’s Department are thin gruel for my constituents who lost thousands through that scam. What are the Government doing to ensure that both the Gambling Commission and the Financial Conduct Authority are fit for purpose, and that my constituents get the justice that they deserve after the collapse of that scam, the Football Index?

[Chris Philp]

The Gambling Commission has revoked the licence of the Football Index’s operator. The individuals have surrendered their personal licences. The matter has been referred to the Insolvency Service, which is investigating allegations of directors’ misconduct. It has the power to conduct criminal investigations and criminal prosecutions, including for fraud if appropriate. On the broader question of compensation, there is no statutory basis upon which compensation can be paid to people who have lost money as a result of the collapse of a betting firm, but the investigations by the Insolvency Service are ongoing.

Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Chris Philp and Ruth Cadbury

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 8th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 7th July 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Philp]

I thank the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West for moving the new clause, and for the eloquence and passion with which she described its various component parts.

The Bill already treats people under the age of 18 very differently from those aged over 18. It has different provisions, as we have already debated. Therefore, people who are children in the legal sense of the term—people who are under the age of 18—are already treated completely differently by the Bill, compared with those over the age of 18.

In relation to those aged between 18 and 20, 18 and 21, or 18 and 24, depending on where the line is drawn, there is clearly a wider debate to be had about the way that their brains mature and about the opportunity to reform those people, compared with people who are a little bit older. However, in the context of the Bill, I emphasise that we are talking about the most serious terrorist offenders. We are not talking about the average 20 or 21-year-old. We are talking about people who have committed the most serious terrorist offences.

It is worth reminding ourselves what level of severity has to be met before somebody gets the mandatory 14-year minimum term, all of which gets spent in prison. To qualify for that sentence, it has to be a serious terrorist offence. The offender has to be found to be dangerous—a finding that the judge makes on reading a pre-sentence report, so the judge can take that into account. It has to be an offence—one of the most serious offences—that ordinarily carries a life sentence. Most chillingly of all, it has to be an offence where there was a risk of causing multiple deaths, and the person carrying out the offence would have known or should have known about that. So we are talking about offences of the most exceptional gravity.

[Ruth Cadbury]

I entirely accept the important point that the Minister raises and how the issue is about severity. However, Labour Members keep raising the point about maturity. Whether it is stealing apples or being involved in planning a major terrorist incident where loss of life is potential or actual, maturity is an issue. As colleagues have said several times, and there is a raft of evidence, young people under 21—they get more mature as they get nearer 25—are at risk of coercion and radicalisation, and their very immaturity draws them into these crimes, however severe. All we ask in this new clause is that there should be a review and that maturity should be taken into account, in the same way that it is now taken into account in the context of sentencing those over 18.

[Chris Philp]

I appreciate the hon. Lady’s intervention and the sentiments behind it, but I am not sure I entirely agree that this very small number of offences can be compared with the theft of apples. We are talking about a tiny handful of people who have committed the most serious offences where multiple people could have been killed and where the judge has found that the offenders are dangerous. Had they simply been misled, or coerced even, it might be open to interpretation as an exceptional circumstance, although we expect the exceptional circumstance derogation to be extremely rare—as the name implies, it is truly exceptional. Should truly exceptional circumstances exist, there is that opportunity open to the judge, but it would have to be truly exceptional.

To emphasise again how small the numbers are, the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Stockton North, reading out my letter when we debated a previous clause, said that, last year, in 2019, of the 22 people convicted of terrorist offences, only four were aged between 18 and 20, and not all of those would meet the criteria for the serious terrorist sentence that we are talking about, so the numbers are microscopically small, thankfully, for those aged between 18 and 20. There is also the exceptional circumstance override, and we are talking about offences of the most serious kind, which have to pass three or four different hurdles before qualifying for the assessment that we have just described. In that context, where the offending is so serious and the risk so grave, the approach being taken is a reasonable one, but I accept the more general point about maturity in other, less serious contexts.

On the question of a review, given that the numbers are so very small, I am not wholly convinced that a bespoke review is the right thing to do, but, of course, there will be a regular review, as I might say frequently in the coming clauses, at the three-year mark, where it is right that the matter gets considered.

The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West raised some points that will require consideration. It might well be that nobody at all aged 18 to 20 ends up being affected by this measure, in which case it will be a pretty short consideration. Mandating it by statute is not necessary. There are other review mechanisms. As we saw when we debated the Prevent review earlier, if we have too many statutory reviews, we end up tripping over our own shoelaces by failing to meet all the deadlines that we have created.

The questions are serious. I understand and respect them. We will need to debate them in future, quite properly and rightly, but putting this measure in the Bill is a step that we do not need to take this afternoon.

Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Chris Philp and Ruth Cadbury

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 6th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 2nd July 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Ruth Cadbury]

The Bar Council is a very authoritative body that needs to be listened to when we are introducing legislation that affects issues such as sentencing.

On the POA point, Peter Dawson pointed out clearly, in relation to violence against prison officers, that when hope is lost and the atmosphere and the management of prisoners gets much more difficult, we have nowhere to move terrorist prisoners who are already in specialist separation centres. He said that removing hope of early release increases that risk. I would like the Government to commit to a review if the proposal is implemented in this way. Obviously, we support the motivation behind it.

I have one more question for the Minister. Might the option for this sentence, with the loss of early release, lead to unintended consequences in charging and sentencing? Would sentencers avoid it and impose a lesser sentence? I am sure that the Government do not intend that.

[Chris Philp]

Let me briefly respond to one or two of the points that the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth made. She referred to the fact that if the sentence is served in full, there obviously will not be a Parole Board assessment prior to release. She asked about the risk assessment that would take place. I asked Mr Fairhurst from the Prison Officers Association about that in our evidence session on Tuesday morning. Even where there is no Parole Board involvement because release is automatic, there are a whole load of other review and evaluation mechanisms that can be used—for example, multi-agency public protection arrangements, careful monitoring by the prison staff and prison governor, and involvement by the National Probation Service in preparation for the release point. With the example of the Streatham offender, those kinds of risk-assessment measures led to a security services team monitoring him, which obviously had the result that it did. That is an example, as Mr Fairhurst said in evidence, of the risk assessment process working very effectively. That is what we would expect to happen in cases in which release is automatic.

The hon. Lady also asked: what happens when hope is lost? What if a prisoner is in prison and there is no prospect of early release? Does that not mean that it will be hard to get them to behave well? I want to make some points in response. First, the vast majority of prisoners, who have committed a range of offences, way beyond terrorist ones, are serving standard determinate sentences and are released automatically—typically at the halfway point—without any Parole Board intervention. The vast majority are subject to automatic release at a particular point. The second risk, particularly in relation to terrorist offenders, is that of false compliance, if they think that by pretending to comply with the deradicalisation programme, they might get released early. That is not necessarily an entirely healthy incentive and we should be mindful of that possibility.

Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Chris Philp and Ruth Cadbury

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 5th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 2nd July 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Philp]

These are relatively technical amendments. The purpose of Government amendment 16 is to apply the same period of rehabilitation to the new sentence for terrorist offenders of particular concern as that currently applied to sentences in respect of grave crimes under section 91 of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000. The rehabilitation period is specified in section 5 of that Act and varies depending on the length of sentence given. It begins on the day the sentence is completed, including any time spent on licence.

Government amendment 29 amends the statutory instruments referred to above in order to align the new special sentence of detention for terrorist offenders of particular concern for under-18s with sentences imposed under section 91 of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000. Those are the central amendments.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

Can I just be clear? For certain offences, under-18s will be treated in exactly the same way as adults when being sentenced. If I have got that wrong, can the Minister please explain?

[Chris Philp]

No. The rehabilitation periods are different and lower for children—quite rightly, for the reasons we debated earlier. All we are doing is creating consistency between the rehabilitation period for adults who commit the various offences and the rehabilitation period for children who commit various offences. We are not making the rehabilitation period the same for children as it is for adults.

The purpose of clause 22 is to address a gap in sentencing options for those under 18 who commit a terrorism offence where custodial sentencing options are limited to a maximum two-year detention and training order, due to the offender not meeting the criteria required to impose long-term detention for offences punishable by less than 14 years in custody.

The new sentence ensures that those convicted of a terrorist offence—we are talking about the serious terrorist offences—spend a substantial period of time on licence to enable that very important rehabilitative work to be undertaken in the community, and to limit the risk that they may pose to the public. That will also ensure greater consistency between the approaches towards sentence and release for under-18s and adults, although under-18s will of course be typically serving shorter prison sentences.

Under the current framework, some terrorist offences can attract only a detention and training order of up to two years, with only half that being served in detention, or an extended determinate sentence where the child is considered dangerous and the sentence is at least four years. That is a consequence of the fixed-term sentences under section 91 of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000, and they are available only for specified offences. Terrorist offences are not a specified category.

As some terrorist offences carry a maximum sentence of less than 14 years, the only custodial sentencing option is therefore the detention and training order. Essentially, the clause fills the gap between those two sentences by creating the SOPC-type offence for under-18s. Of course, the length of sentence will be entirely a matter for the discretion of the judge, and the judge will have the pre-sentence report available in making that determination. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury said in his intervention, that pre-sentence report will include considerations regarding not just the offender’s chronological age but their mental maturity. Judges will of course continue to have discretion to ensure that they are balancing the offender’s maturity with the appropriate kind of sentence.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 22 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 23

Terrorism sentence with fixed licence period: Scotland

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Chris Philp and Ruth Cadbury

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 30th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Ruth Cadbury]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. As others have said, it would have been better if there had been proper risk assessments of a number of aspects of the Bill, because many clauses do not seem to be evidence-based. We know that we have funding problems within the prison system. We know that we have, as we heard this morning, disjoints between various elements of the course through the system for offenders. There is an awful lot of work to do, and there are a number of respects in which I do not feel that the Bill is fit for purpose. It would have been better if it had been based on proper evidence of what works to reduce the threat to the public and improve rehabilitation.

Children have long been treated differently in sentencing considerations, and the amendments would enable particular considerations for young adults, particularly of their maturity. Mr Hall, the independent reviewer, was concerned that, unless these considerations are taken into account, we risk locking people up for too long, building bitterness and a refusal to engage in the prison system, and actually, on eventual release, potentially a greater risk. He considered that longer and more punitive sentences do not in themselves ensure that people are less dangerous on release, and that while extending sentences for serious offenders may, of course, keep them out of our harm’s way for a temporary period, we do not want them to leave prison more dangerous than when they entered.

Early release provides prisoners with the incentive to behave and show that they are capable of reform. We heard powerful evidence that prison staff are at increased risk of harm where hope is lost. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North said, many studies show that young terrorist offenders are much more likely to reform than older offenders, yet the Bill treats a young adult who has just turned 18 the same as an older offender. Are the Secretary of State and the Minister concerned that the Bill effectively gives up on those offenders?

We need to look at the evidence, not the tabloids. We need a flexible response that is offender-based, and it must be tailored. If we really want to enable rehabilitation and reduce the harm to the public, I hope that the Minister will consider the amendment.

[Chris Philp]

I will speak to the amendments relating to younger offenders. There are a couple of things to be clear about first of all. For the sake of absolute clarity, offenders who are under the age of 18 are not subject to the 14-year minimum prison sentence. Only offenders over the age of 18 are subject to those provisions. The amendments relate to offenders aged between 18 and 21, so we are discussing a very specific cohort.

I agree and concur with many points that the shadow Minister and the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth made about rehabilitation, and about the increased opportunity for rehabilitation for younger people. It is of course the case that younger people are more open to change—particularly as their brains mature—than older people, and it is right that we try to work with them to achieve that. I would not dispute that as a general principle, but clause 4 as drafted applies to an extremely small subsection of those offenders aged between 18 and 21. It by no means applies to the generality of offenders, including terrorist offenders, aged 18 to 21. It applies to that narrow subsection who have committed a serious terrorist offence, as we have discussed already, but it also requires a finding by the judge, following a pre-sentence report—something the shadow Minister referred to in his amendment and in his speech—of dangerousness. What a finding of dangerousness means in law is that there is a significant risk of the offender causing serious harm by committing further serious terrorism or other specified offences.

There are already two hurdles to jump: a serious terrorist offence, followed by a finding of dangerousness based on a pre-sentence report. However, there is also a third hurdle that must be jumped before a younger offender aged 18 to 21 would fall into the scope of this clause, which is that, at the time of committing the offence. they were aware, or should have been aware, that their offence was very likely to result in or contribute to multiple deaths. That is a well-established test dating back to section 1 of the Terrorism Act 2000. We are talking about an extremely small subsection of offenders aged 18 to 21 and a very small subsection even of terrorist offenders—those who meet all three of those criteria.