Chris Loder debates involving the Home Office during the 2019 Parliament

Hate Crime Against the LGBT+ Community

Chris Loder Excerpts
Wednesday 18th October 2023

(6 months ago)

Westminster Hall
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Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Ms Cummins. I thank the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) and congratulate him on securing this important debate. I will speak briefly from my own experiences and perspectives as someone who, before my election to this place, was physically assaulted for being who I am. It is incredibly important that we tackle the root causes that motivate and cause such behaviours against members of the LGBT community, which is why I am so pleased to support the hon. Gentleman’s debate.

As we tackle this hideous behaviour, though, it is also important that we lead by example and hold our own community to account, just as we would the wider public, because in the quest to reduce instances of hate crime against the LGBT community, we also have to look at our own behaviours within it. It is simply unacceptable for those who may well have been impacted by hate issues previously to provoke and manufacture homophobic hate against staff or innocent supporters of an MP for political purposes, especially when they are fuelled by alcohol. I am afraid that this is a growing issue and one that I have personally faced as recently as this week, in my home town of Sherborne. I put on the record my thanks to Dorset police for responding so promptly and for their help in calming an extraordinarily aggressive situation.

At Manchester Pride last year, the current shadow Leader of the House of Commons—the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), who is a Labour Member—turned up with her supporters in T-shirts bearing the words “Never kissed a Tory”. I am sorry to say so, but she should be ashamed for doing that and for making some people—

Judith Cummins Portrait Judith Cummins (in the Chair)
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Order. Has the Member given notice of that?

Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder
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Yes, I have. As I was saying, I believe that the hon. Member for Manchester Central should be ashamed for doing that, and for making some people who do not share her political views uncomfortable for joining a Pride event—an event at which we should be united and not divided. I believe that it is as much our duty to call out such instances of hypocrisy within the community when we see them as it is to call out those outside the community who serve hate against us. I will not be threatened nor intimidated by that sort of nastiness. That kind of behaviour does not just stem from drunken louts, but can start and be fomented by supposedly upstanding members of the community.

When such comments originate from those who hold elected office, I hope they are taken into account at election time. Where the proprietors of local businesses spread that form of hate, I hope their customers fully know the values of that business and consider to whom they give their custom in future. Manufactured hate against gay people by gay people for the purposes of political difference is still hate. It has no place in our society, nor in our community, and where it happens and has happened, I shall shine an intense light on it—as I hope everybody will.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Loder Excerpts
Monday 22nd May 2023

(11 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. May I just say that I have no responsibility for the Labour party?

Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
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T4. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Immigration will know that Portland port, although in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax), is very close to the constituency border of West Dorset. My constituents in Chickerell and wider West Dorset are becoming increasingly concerned about the absence of information on the risk assessment and on the additional resources that will be made available to Dorset Council and Dorset police. Has he any further information that he can share with the House today?

Robert Jenrick Portrait Robert Jenrick
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I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the manner in which he has defended his constituents on this difficult issue. Although housing asylum seekers in more rudimentary accommodation such as barges is undoubtedly in the national interest, we are acutely aware of the challenges faced by the local communities in which they will be moored. That is why we are working closely with Dorset Council, with the hon. Gentleman and with my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax).

Asylum Seeker Accommodation: South Dorset

Chris Loder Excerpts
Wednesday 26th April 2023

(11 months, 4 weeks ago)

Commons Chamber
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Robert Jenrick Portrait Robert Jenrick
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I am not sure of the source to which my hon. Friend is referring, but we will not be putting more migrants on the vessel than is safe and appropriate. I do know that barges of this kind can accommodate either one individual per room or, in many cases, two. That may be the explanation. In some circumstances, organisations making use of the barge, such as construction companies or offshore oil and gas businesses, might choose to accommodate one individual per room, but the barge itself can comfortably accommodate two or more. We will obviously abide by the relevant laws to ensure that the migrants are properly accommodated, but—this is relevant to my hon. Friend’s point—it is equally important for us to minimise the potential for disturbances on the boat that would have an impact on his constituents and the local police.

My hon. Friend may not appreciate this, but in each of the actions that we are taking, the choices we are making are guided by how we can reduce the impact of the barge on the local community. If he, or the stakeholders with whom we are engaging, can think of any further steps we could take, we will obviously consider them and try to ensure that we take them whenever possible, unless there is a very good reason not to.

Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
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As my right hon. Friend will know, my neighbouring constituency is in many respects—although not entirely—affected in the same way as that of my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax). I am grateful for the brief dialogue that I had with civil servants a couple of weeks ago, but I am keen to see the risk assessments that have informed the points that my right hon. Friend is making. I have been asking for them for a couple of weeks, and I should be grateful if he could tell me when they will be available and can be presented to my hon. Friend and me.

Robert Jenrick Portrait Robert Jenrick
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I know that my hon. Friend met my officials, and I am sorry I could not be there as well; I was at a Cobra meeting to discuss the Border Force presence in Sudan this week. However, I think we will be meeting again soon so that my officials and I can discuss those points with my hon. Friend. We have considered the challenges, and will be pleased to answer as many questions as we can.

I see that there is only a very short time left, so let me draw my remarks to a close. We all appreciate that while this policy is undoubtedly in the national interest, it has a particularly serious impact on the community that both my hon. Friends represent. The Home Secretary, the Government and I stand ready to work with them to make this policy as successful as possible, to listen to the views of their constituents, and to mitigate the negatives as far as possible. My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset has our assurance that we will also do everything we can to stop the boats, and to stop this problem at source.

Question put and agreed to.

Equipment Theft (Prevention) Bill

Chris Loder Excerpts
3rd reading
Friday 3rd March 2023

(1 year, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith) and wish him a very happy birthday. I say to other Members of the House that I believe the Bill we have in front of us is an important step in tackling the crime issues we have in this country, particularly in rural Britain and rural England.

I declare an interest to the House, as I am a tenant beef farmer’s son. I believe that the Bill will benefit farms across West Dorset and further afield, because it looks to mitigate the risks that come to pass when equipment is stolen. Those who have businesses in rural settings, particularly but not exclusively farmers, have had to deal with an appalling level of crime, and particularly theft, for far too long. I am pleased that the Bill brings forward measures to not just mitigate the situation but deter those thefts.

In West Dorset, I have been concerned about theft and crime. I am aware that the Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire, my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp), and his Department have done a lot of work in this space and will continue to do so. The Bill builds on the increase in police funding that we have seen in Dorset. We debated police funding in the House a few weeks ago, and I am very pleased to see the improvement for Dorset; for a long time it has been much wanted and called for. None the less, we still have difficulties, and the Bill brought forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham will help with them.

In the past year, we have seen 253 reported incidents of rural crime in Dorset—that is five per week. These are not all thefts of quad bikes or similar equipment; they are often thefts of expensive pieces of farm equipment, which can hugely interrupt local businesses, whether they are farmers, builders or other small businesses. It is hugely disruptive.

The most common type of rural crime in Dorset is the theft of machinery, tools and vehicles, which accounts for 43% of all reported incidents that we see. I am aware that the Bill does not include some of the other thefts we see, including animal rustling and so on. I hope that the Minister will take away from this debate the fact that I and, it is safe to say, my neighbouring colleagues in Dorset feel very strongly about those things. I hope we will see some progress accordingly.

In 2020, we had 23 reported incidents of theft of high-value farm machinery. Just so I am clear what we are talking about, that means tractors, telehandlers and other large equipment such as diggers and so on. As I said, that is hugely disruptive. I am very hopeful that the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham will make progress on dealing with that. The deterrent it brings will be hugely valuable. I congratulate him again on bringing forward the Bill, which will be of great value to all rural communities.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Loder Excerpts
Monday 28th February 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
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We are certainly concerned about the lack of suitable accommodation across the United Kingdom in terms of dispersal areas, which is why we are keen to sign up new areas to become dispersal areas. I am pushing my own council and, as I have already said, there are 31 out of 32 areas in Scotland that could do with signing up as well.

Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
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T9. Dorset police is at the bottom of the funding league table for police forces, coming 40th out of 41 forces, and we continue to battle issues of rural crime, including county lines drug gangs. Will my right hon. Friend commit to ensuring that Dorset gets its fair share, so that we can get more police officers—I particularly want to see the rural crime police team doubled, and I know those aspirations are shared by our police and crime commissioner?

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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I have committed before, and I am happy to do so again, that before the end of the Parliament we will produce a new funding formula to ensure that my hon. Friend’s constituency gets exactly what he deserves, as indeed he should.

Policing and Prevention of Violence against Women

Chris Loder Excerpts
Monday 15th March 2021

(3 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
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I went to Clapham common bandstand yesterday evening to pay my own respects. I, like Members across the House, send my greatest sympathies and sadnesses to Sarah’s family.

I believe that it is highly regrettable that Members of the Opposition demand that the first female Commissioner of the Metropolitan police resign in this situation. May I ask my right hon. Friend what she is doing to ensure that the facts are understood properly before premature conclusions are made on people’s actions?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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I thank my hon. Friend for his question and for the sentiment that he has shared with the House this afternoon. I agree entirely with his comments. Alongside that, of course, he asks what I am doing. I have commissioned the inspectorate of constabulary. It is important that we have the full facts in addition, to supplement the lessons learned review. I come back to the point that I really, strongly recommend that colleagues do not prejudge. The images were upsetting—of course they were upsetting—but alongside that, it is right that we see the full report in due course and that we hear the facts as they come out.

Policing (England and Wales)

Chris Loder Excerpts
Wednesday 10th February 2021

(3 years, 2 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Nick Thomas-Symonds Portrait Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)
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I would like to begin by putting on record our continuing gratitude for the selfless service, bravery and professionalism shown by our police officers and police staff. This pandemic has been a powerful reminder—not, frankly, that one should have been needed—of the risks they take daily on our behalf. I say to the Minister that warm words are not enough. It is scant recognition for these officers and staff that they are rewarded for their efforts throughout the pandemic with a pay freeze.

I call on the Minister to work quickly with the Health Secretary to introduce concrete plans to make good on lukewarm commitments to prioritise frontline officers in the vaccine roll-out. We know that officers are not able to control who they come into contact with—they are unable to socially distance as they go about their duties—so it is vital that they are able to be vaccinated as soon as possible. Officers have made the ultimate sacrifice and died from covid while on service, so it is vital that we extend that protection as soon as possible.

Even before the pandemic, the risks and the pressures heaped on police officers have increased significantly over the past decade. Attacks on police officers have jumped by 50% over the past five years. That is, sadly, unsurprising when we have seen such steep increases in violence and violent crime on the streets and in homes across the country. Officers have been placed in an impossible position. This Government oversaw huge cuts to police officer and staff numbers. Between 2010 and 2019, police officer numbers fell by 21,000. At the same time, there have been huge cuts to the services that are vital to preventing crime in the first place—youth clubs, mental health services, local councils and probation.

The Home Secretary and other Ministers like to talk tough, but the reality is that they are soft on crime and soft on the causes of crime. [Interruption.] The results have been devastating for victims of crime right across the country. The Minister chuckles, but in fact, violent crime has risen in every single police force area. In 2019-20, violence as a proportion of all police recorded crime reached its highest level since comparable records began. The Home Office’s own research has shown the link between cuts to police officer numbers and violent crime. It is good that the Government have finally woken up to the huge damage that their police cuts have done to public safety and started to replace some of the huge numbers of officers they have cut. However, it should not have taken the devastation that rising crime has caused to families and communities across the country to spark that action.

In terms of the new recruits promised, I call on the Government to do everything possible to improve diversity in recruitment. I know all Members will agree that joining the police is a noble calling, and it is vital that police services look like the communities they serve. That is one of the many lessons we need to learn from the powerful testimonies that so many black people have shared in the past nine months, and it is incumbent upon us to act. There are excellent examples of initiatives to try to improve diversity that it would be good to share across the country. Much more needs to be done to ensure that officers from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities rise through the policing ranks, and we must put in place better structures to enable greater community involvement in police training.

Looking more widely across the criminal justice landscape, I again call on Ministers to properly commit to fully implementing the recommendations in the Lammy review and other reviews that the Government have commissioned in recent years. It is vital that we all live up to the words uttered on building a more equal society.

Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
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I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for giving way. He suggests that the Government are giving warm words in their commitment to the police, which I wholly disagree with. The Mayor of London has kindly given an exemption from the congestion charge in London to emergency workers, but not to police officers and police staff. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman might share his view on whether real prioritisation of the police is something that the Labour party supports.

Nick Thomas-Symonds Portrait Nick Thomas-Symonds
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It is nice actually to take an intervention. That is not something we can do regularly in House debates at the moment, but on the point raised by the hon. Gentleman in his attempt to criticise the Mayor of London, I have to say that the Mayor of London has been taking action on violent crime. The rise in violent crime is right across the country. In terms of prioritising police officers for the vaccine, that is precisely the case I am putting to the Government. They have been saying warm words about that, too, and I am asking them to make good on those warm words that I know they have been uttering to police representatives for some time. We would all agree about the dangers that police officers put themselves in every day, which is why I am asking for this action to take place.

Moving back to the funding of the commitment on police recruitment, as ever with this Government, the devil is in the detail, and the policing grant is no different. I point out, first, that when the Prime Minister pledged to increase the number of police officers, he did not make it clear to voters that a significant proportion of it would rely on increasing the council tax precept by £15 a year, at a time when family finances are very hard-pressed. In his opening remarks, the Minister described it as flexibility; I would describe it as a Government who are not putting the needs of families first.

Will the Minister confirm why the Government have decided to slow the speed of police recruitment so sharply? He will be aware that police forces across the country were planning for 6,000 officers to be recruited in year 1, 8,000 in year 2, and 6,000 in year 3. However, we now know that there will be 6,000 officers recruited this year and presumably 8,000 in year 3. What is the reason for this worrying slowdown, which will mean thousands fewer officers on our streets?

Also, it will not have escaped attention that there is a sharp decline in the amount of funding that the Government have allocated to recruiting the promised officers for this year. When setting a target for 6,000 officers for 2020-21, the amount of money allocated was £750 million, but for 2021-22 the amount for the same number of officers—6,000—has sharply reduced to £400 million. The Minister may say that that is in part due to so-called front-loading of costs for additional officers.

--- Later in debate ---
Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to be called to speak in this debate. I have listened intently to the debate this afternoon, and there have been many impassioned contributions to it. There has been much criticism of the Government, but I just want to say to Members on the Opposition Front Bench that there are opportunities for the Labour Mayor of London to show real appreciation of our police officers here by making sure that police officers can be exempt from the congestion charge in the same way as other emergency service workers are. I would implore them to make their petitions to the Mayor.

Today I would like to very much commend Chief Constable James Vaughan of Dorset Police and the whole Dorset force for the sterling work they have done over the years, but particularly over the last 12 months. It is also fitting that I thank the outgoing police and crime commissioner, Martyn Underhill, for his service and work as an independent police and crime commissioner for Dorset. I also very much commend the Conservative candidate, David Sidwick, who will be standing in the forthcoming election in May.

I am particularly pleased that, despite some political movements calling for the police force to be defunded, the Government continue their commitment not just to fund the police but to grow their capability. Dorset policing has had an uplift under those arrangements of £7.7 million. Thirty-nine more police officers are committed to Dorset, and I know that the coastal town of Lyme Regis in my constituency will benefit specifically.

I cannot let this opportunity pass without specifically commending those Dorset police officers who have worked extremely hard during this period of covid. Many Dorset police officers were prepared to go and support other parts of the country—particularly Kent, with the ports in the run-up to the end of the year. On behalf of all the constituents of West Dorset, I cannot say enough how grateful we are to those fearless members of the police force. I should also say that I speak on behalf of my colleague and neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) and, I am sure, all other Members from Dorset in the debate.

It is quite rare for a Member from Dorset to be interested in Northumbria. Despite the fact that the Government are making good progress and we are seeing an extra £7.7 million, the Minister will well know from our previous correspondence that the police funding formula, and Dorset seeing more and being more fairly treated under it, are very important to me. We in Dorset received just 51% of our police funding through the national police funding formula, whereas Northumbria receives 80%. I very much look forward to the coming year, when I am sure the Minister will do as much as he can to review that formula.

As I have pointed out, Dorset has done a huge amount, but I would like to highlight the fact that we have many challenges with crime. The ongoing difficulty is actually growing when it comes to county lines. Small market towns—my home town of Sherborne, as well as Lyme Regis, Bridport, Dorchester and Beaminster—are now seeing county lines activity, and not just a little. We are seeing cuckooing at a level I never, ever thought I would see in the rural constituency of West Dorset. We see drugs being trafficked from Liverpool, from London, from Bristol and from across the country to this rural and coastal constituency. That is what is driving me to ensure that the Minister knows we feel very strongly about the funding formula. We in Dorset need to get to grips, as other parts of the country do, with the county lines disgrace we see across our country today. I am sure the Minister will take that on board. Hon. Members who have spoken in the debate—particularly my hon. Friends the Members for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) and for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous)—have articulated similar concerns from their constituencies, and I reiterate those.

In 2014, when I was a councillor on West Dorset District Council, I fought hard to ensure that our rural police stations remained open. That was at a time when I did not quite see eye to eye with the outgoing police commissioner, but none the less we found a way to keep them open and to keep access to them open to the local community. It is fair to say that we need to do more in that area now, and I implore the Minister, in his work going forward, to give that due consideration, for which I thank him very much.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Loder Excerpts
Monday 9th November 2020

(3 years, 5 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing this to my attention. I had a look at some of the incidents that have taken place in West Bromwich town centre, and it is a shocker, to be honest. Hopefully, using the convening power of her office, she can pull all the various groups together, and the police and crime commissioner and the chief constable will pay attention too. I recently had a good meeting with West Midlands police to discuss their general violence reduction, with a particular focus on reducing murder. It sounds like West Bromwich could do with some attention, and I am grateful to her, as I know her constituents will be, for bringing that focus to an area that obviously needs it.

Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
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What steps she is taking to support policing in Dorset.

Kit Malthouse Portrait The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
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The police funding settlement for 2020-21 set out the biggest increase in funding for the policing system since 2010, with Dorset police receiving up to £144.3 million in funding. That is an increase of £8.8 million on the previous year. We are giving the police the resources they need to fight crime and keep the public safe.

Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder
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Can I thank the Minister very much for his answer? My constituency of West Dorset is served very ably by Dorset police, and they have historically managed their finances very well, but in the national funding formula, we do not fare quite so well, being below average, with 48%, compared with the average of 64%. Could he give me some reassurance that the police in Dorset are valued as much as other police forces around the country?

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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My hon. Friend need have no fear: every officer and every force in the country stand in equal regard by the Home Office, although I know that Dorset police are close to his heart. I will say two things. First, it is very important that the good people of Dorset elect a Conservative police and crime commissioner in May next year who can continue that good financial management. Secondly, I remind him of the commitment that I gave at the Department’s last questions session. While the police funding formula is currently the best basis we have for allocating funds across all forces in England and Wales, it is a bit elderly, and we have undertaken to review it before the next election. During that review, I know that he, along with all the other Members of Parliament from Dorset, will be lobbying hard to ensure that that beautiful county comes out of it well.

Registers of Births and Deaths Bill

Chris Loder Excerpts
2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons
Friday 16th October 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Registers of Births and Deaths Bill 2019-21 View all Registers of Births and Deaths Bill 2019-21 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
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I rise to speak in support of the Bill, and I am delighted to offer my support to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell). Births and deaths are important moments, and often at present I feel that the registration of such is filled with too much bureaucracy. I am very keen that we might be able to streamline that process.

Of course, the register has many other purposes, does it not? In particular, they include the registration of baby names and allowing us to see the most popular baby names. Probably in testament to one of the many wonderful legacies of my predecessor, Oliver is the most popular boy’s name in the Dorset Council area. Isabella is the most popular girl’s name in the Dorset Council area, which I did not know until I had done the research for this. I should just like to say that, in England and Wales, Christopher ranks at 152 and Andrew ranks at 227, so there we are.

Coming back to the purpose of the Bill, it does remove unnecessary duplication and bureaucracy. I am extremely pleased that we will be able to remove the additional efforts and the additional cost of tens of millions of pounds to the taxpayer. It currently is a complete waste of money. We can do things much better. The cutting down on paper usage also, of course, has many obvious benefits to the environment, albeit reasonably marginal. Digital records can be kept more securely, and it is a more adaptable system that we can evolve and use going forward in terms of technology and societal needs. I am very pleased to be able to support the Bill in the House today.

Nigel Evans Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
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Just to make Andrew Mitchell happy, or happier, nobody is named Nigel any more—one of those things. [Interruption.] I know, I know.

Birmingham Attacks and Extinction Rebellion Protests

Chris Loder Excerpts
Monday 7th September 2020

(3 years, 7 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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I am happy to acknowledge that the XR protesters were peaceful, although crimes were obviously committed in the process of that peaceful demonstration. As I explained earlier, we are covering two subjects in this one statement more for the efficient use of the House’s resources than to conflate the two subjects.

On the issue of free speech, the hon. Gentleman gave himself away slightly by deprecating those on this side of the House for welcoming Fox News “to these shores”, I think he said; he obviously believes in free speech as long as people agree with him.

Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
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It is less than three months since I stood in this Chamber the last time after similar tragic events in Reading, and I am greatly concerned that these attacks continue and would like the Minister, please, to outline what decisive action the Government are taking to stop these horrific attacks continuing.

On Extinction Rebellion, I am afraid its disruptive, costly and often illegal protest risks severely undermining the important debate on climate change and our environment; blocking roads into hospitals and the like is just not the way to do it.

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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My hon. Friend is right to be concerned about violent crime, and we all are; that is why the Prime Minister has set up the criminal justice taskforce, which will be meeting this week, and which will discuss on a monthly basis what our response to all manner of crimes, but in particular violent crime, should be. As he knows, we are recruiting 20,000 extra police officers over the next three years. We are about 4,500 into that recruitment campaign. Adding that to previous commitments, we are approximately 9,500 police officers up on 2018, which will help. We are putting money into violence reduction units and indeed into surge funding for police forces that are affected across the country. Later this month, I will be starting a series of meetings with large forces to talk to them about their murder prevention strategies, to make sure that everybody has one in place.