Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Section 35 Power

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Flynn]

Indeed. As we are looking for reasonable Unionists, they are clearly not found on the Labour Benches. If the shadow Secretary of State wants to clarify that that is not the case, then I am more than happy for him to do so, but I will be unsurprised if he does not.

[Sir Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I am very reluctant to be goaded by the SNP, but none the less here we are.

Just to be clear, I certainly wanted to make sure that there is a proper gender recognition plan across the whole United Kingdom, because I am sick and tired of people setting women’s rights against trans people’s rights. That is where I want to get to and I am looking for solutions to that problem, not anything else.

[Stephen Flynn]

I respect the sincerity with which the hon. Gentleman delivers his points in that regard and I see a lot of hon. Members nodding. Well, if that is the case, I am sure he will support us, because we have a solution in Scotland. That solution is the legislation put forward in the Scottish Parliament, which has received democratic support in the Scottish Parliament and which this UK Government are blocking. He should share my anger, and I hope the anger of his colleagues in the Scottish Parliament, on that particular point.

It is a rarity in this place—I am sure she will forgive me—that I agree with some of the comments made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine). We heard from her earlier about the difficulty this situation is causing her in respect of the Union. Hers is the sort of voice we need to hear at this moment in time—the voices of reasonable Unionists about where they seek to go. If this is a Union of equals, as it is portrayed, and if Scotland’s Parliament is to be the most powerful devolved legislature in the world, as we are often told it is, then why is the section 35 order being used?

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

I think that the time the Minister took to respond to the motion shows that the Government do not have much to say about this particular issue—or perhaps the Minister did not get the statement of reasons either, in relation to what the Government were actually proposing.

May I begin by restating, once again, that this Labour party is the party of devolution and the party of equality? It will not be lost on many that all the Acts we are discussing today—the Scotland Act 1998, the Equality Act 2010 and the Gender Recognition Act 2004—were Labour Bills that we introduced for the advancement of devolution and equality in this country. It is difficult to conclude anything other than that today’s debate is about two Governments who are incapable of working together.

I have read, or skimmed, the 13 pages of reasons—the farce that we have had trying to get these reasons today is part of this debate—and when I got to the end, my initial reaction was, “What are the Government going to do about it?” They cannot just bring an unprecedented section 35 order to this House and lay out reasons, then get to the end of those reasons and decide what to do about it. As we stand here today, the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill is dead unless both Governments can come together and resolve the perceived issues, or otherwise.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

I wonder whether my hon. Friend has looked at paragraph 3. The Minister, who was not taking interventions earlier, suggested that all the Scottish Government had to do was bring forward a Bill with amendments, but as far as I can see they would have to come forward with a Bill that did not have anything in it. Is not that the only Bill that the Westminster Government would accept, if we go by the amendments suggested in paragraph 3?

[Ian Murray]

That is where we get to the crux of this process. My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Sir Chris Bryant) made a similar point earlier about wanting to make sure that trans rights and women’s rights were protected in this country, and about doing it properly. This is certainly not the way to do it. We will now have a process whereby the First Minister and the Scottish Government will take the UK Government to court on the basis of these reasons and the unseen legal advice, and the courts will have to decide whether the reasons that the UK Government have put forward are legitimate and reasonable in terms of the bar they have to reach—namely, that there would be adverse consequences for reserved legislation. I think that at the end of that process the courts will have to resolve these arguments because both Governments are unwilling to do so together.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Murray]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a valuable intervention. I am getting all the questions on the adverse effects, but this is a Government document. What we have missed in the debate over the past few months is that people in this country currently have gender recognition certificates under a different process, and the IT systems have to deal with that. How a person gets a gender recognition certificate is the argument here, not how they are implemented, because we implement them already.

[Sir Chris Bryant]

On how people get a gender recognition certificate, the key thing is that we should take the suggestion that it is a pathology out of the process. I do not want it to feel like we are treating trans people as if they have a pathological condition. Is that not the key thing we need to change?

[Ian Murray]

Yes, I agree. That should be part of this argument. We should be taking pathology out of the process, as this is not a medical disorder.

I wish we were having a debate about all these things, as we should be, rather than having a constitutional debate between two Governments who want not to resolve these issues but to fight about them in different ways.

Scotland Bill

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Monday 9th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Joanna Cherry]

I am sure he is. The hon. Gentleman’s interventions and speech underline the reality of our concern that the wish of the Scottish electorate to preserve the Human Rights Act will not be respected. I reiterate that we want to make common cause with the Labour party, the Lib Dems, Northern Ireland Members and Government Members to preserve the Act for the whole of the UK.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

“They” want to?

[Joanna Cherry]

I want to. We want to.

[Chris Bryant]

You said “they”.

[Joanna Cherry]

I said “we”. Listen carefully. I know my accent is a bit difficult to follow, but I said “we”.

In conclusion, our primary intention is to preserve the Act for the whole of the UK, but the amendment would give us the option to implement the settled will of the Scottish people to keep the Act for Scotland, if we fail to keep it for the whole of the UK.

Scotland within the UK

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Carmichael]

I have already made it clear that I expect the leadership of the Scottish National party—in whatever shape or form it eventually emerges—to give that commitment to the Scottish people. That was what the party signed up to in the Edinburgh agreement and that was what it was saying in the week before the referendum. I see no reason why it should not stick to that position.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I am absolutely certain that the events in Scotland will lead to further devolution in Wales and in England, but what analysis has the Secretary of State made of the proposals on English votes for English laws? Would it not be bizarre if Scottish MPs were barred from voting but Scottish peers were allowed to vote on exactly the same legislation? Such peers could include the ninth Earl of Arran, the 14th Earl of Stair, the 16th Earl of Lindsay and, for that matter, Lord Smith.

[Mr Carmichael]

Lord Smith is not an hereditary peer. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws) has already said, where we have devolved, we have devolved to a legislature, be it a Parliament or an Assembly, that is elected proportionally. That has been an important part of the way in which we have gone about the process of devolution, and I think that the people of England should be entitled to that as well. The essential difficulty that the hon. Gentleman touches on is that it is—[Interruption.] He knows my views on an unelected House of Lords. It is very difficult to devolve within Parliament but not the Executive, and that is something that those who want changes of this sort will have to address and explain.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Wednesday 12th September 2012 Commons Chamber

The Prime Minister was asked—

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 12 September.

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Guardsman Karl Whittle of 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, who died on Friday from wounds that he sustained in Afghanistan in August, and to Sergeant Lee Davidson of the Light Dragoons. These were courageous and much respected men. They gave their lives in the service of our country. We remember their friends and their loved ones, and we are for ever indebted to them.

I am sure the House will also join me in welcoming the renaming of the Clock Tower today as the Elizabeth Tower, following the campaign led by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood). I believe it is a fitting tribute to Her Majesty the Queen and the incredible service she has given to our country for 60 years.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and I shall have further such meetings, in addition to my duties in the House today.

[Chris Bryant]

I, too, pay tribute to our troops who have died. We often vote for war in this House, but it is far braver people than we who have to do the fighting.

The number of women who have lost their jobs under the Government’s cuts has been twice that of men, and the statistics out today show that the number of female redundancies has been rising over the last few months. In addition, we now have nine Departments with not a single woman Minister. Now, I know the Prime Minister likes to think of himself as butch—[Interruption]—he told us so last week in this very House—but what has he got against women?

[The Prime Minister]

The unemployment statistics today actually have a number of very encouraging figures in them, including the fact that women’s employment—the number of women in employment—is actually up 128,000 this quarter, with 250,000 more women in work than at the time of the last election. I think that is encouraging. Obviously the way that we have treated public sector pay—the public sector pay freeze and, in particular, protecting low-paid people in the public sector—has actually helped women, but do we need to do more to help women into work? Yes. Do we need to do more to help with child care? Yes. Do we need to help encourage more women into politics and see more women at a higher level? Yes to that as well.

Scotland Bill

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Yesterday afternoon, my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) asked the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport:

“Why was the special adviser the nominated person in the Department? If this was so important, as the Secretary of State is saying, why was his special adviser the nominated person?”

The Secretary of State replied:

“His role was agreed by the permanent secretary”.—[Official Report, 25 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 963.]

This morning, at the Public Accounts Committee, the permanent secretary was asked on 10 occasions whether he had actually approved that decision, as the Secretary of State suggested to the House yesterday, and he point blank refused to say. The reason this is a point of order is that if we were to apply for a Standing Order No. 24 debate on this very serious issue of whether the Secretary of State might have inadvertently or advertently misled the House, we would have to have the first debate on Monday and the second on Tuesday. Can you confirm, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the House would not be able to prorogue on Tuesday in that eventuality?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

First, I cannot judge something that has not happened. We do not know whether what the hon. Member mentions will be received on Monday. The decision will obviously be taken when such a request has been received; only then could it be decided upon. It would be wrong for me to rule on something hypothetical.

Scotland’s Constitutional Future

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

It is not a question of whether the referendum is binding, consultative, advisory or whatever other adjective the hon. Gentleman cares to apply. At the present time, the Scottish Parliament could not bring forward a referendum on a legal basis. We want to ensure that it can do so, and are offering the way that that can be done through the consultation.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

It is not just the euro that an independent Scotland would have to sign up to if it wanted to join the European Union, is it? It would also have to sign up to the Schengen agreement, because European law makes it absolutely clear that that would have to happen. Would we be considering setting up border controls between England and Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

As the Member of Parliament who represents the longest stretch of that border, I hope that we will never be in a position in which such barriers might exist. I am confident that when we get to the proper debate, that will not be the way it ends up.