Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Chi Onwurah and Kirsty Blackman

Thursday 22nd April 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Chi Onwurah]

On a point of order, Mr Hollobone. I thank you for the way in which you have chaired our deliberations, and for your guidance and that of the Chair of each sitting. I thank the Committee members, whose contributions have just about always been good-natured and constructive, and have often been humorous and enlightening at the same time. I offer my particular thanks to the Clerks of the Committee, to Hansard for taking down our words of wisdom—or whatever—so accurately and concisely, and to all the staff and Officers of the House who have furnished us with excellent briefings for the evidence sessions. We have benefited from their advice and guidance outside of the Committee Room as well.

[Kirsty Blackman]

Further to that point of order, Mr Hollobone. I echo the comments made by the shadow Minister. I have said thanks very much to the Clerks, but I also put on the record my thanks to Dr Jonathan Kiehlmann and Scott Taylor, our staff members who have been assisting us. I also put on the record my thanks to the Minister, who wrote to us with a response to questions that we asked on Tuesday. I thank her and her team for ensuring that happened.

Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Chi Onwurah and Kirsty Blackman

Thursday 22nd April 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Chi Onwurah]

I recognise that, Mr Twigg, but let us be clear. When I say that we are the party of national security, it is also what the shadow Secretary of State for Defence and my party leader say. That is a statement, and I really do not think it was appropriate of the hon. Member for Broadland to try to undermine the unity on both sides of the House with regard to the importance of national security. I fear that that is what he was trying to do.

As I was saying, Labour is the party of national security and believes strongly in the importance of the Secretary of State’s ability to give directions informed by national security. However, I feel that the Minister has yet to set out how those directions will be scrutinised. That remains a significant concern for the Opposition if we are to be sure that those directions are really driven by our national security interests and if we are to give the scrutiny that ensures continuing public confidence. However, given the importance of national security, we will clearly not be opposing clause 5.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 5 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 6

Information

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

I beg to move amendment 27, in clause 6, page 2, line 38, at end insert—

“(2) ARIA must provide relevant Select Committees of the House of Commons and the House of Lords with such information as the Select Committees may request.”

This amendment is intended to allow relevant parliamentary Select Committees to access information in order to scrutinise the value for money provided by ARIA.

I will not say a huge amount about the amendment, which pretty much speaks for itself. As ARIA is not subject to freedom of information, I think it incredibly important that there should be a commitment from the Minister that ARIA will provide information to Select Committees if they request it. If the Minister will stand up and say that ARIA will of course provide information to Select Committees, I will withdraw my amendment post haste.

Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Chi Onwurah and Kirsty Blackman

Tuesday 20th April 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

For the avoidance of doubt, we are happy to support the two amendments. On the issue of geographical experience, if we go with geographical knowledge as well, and perhaps get people who have specific expertise in, for example, energy-related technologies, such as we have around Aberdeen, and in technologies around AI, which we have in the area around Edinburgh, then we have geographic hubs as well as experience hubs. The amendment nicely allows for ARIA to make sure that it encapsulates all of that and not just, as the hon. Lady says, nanotechnology, which is brilliant but is not the only thing that we should focus on.

[Chi Onwurah]

I am in absolute agreement with the hon. Lady. She highlights an important issue. We want ARIA to be transformational. We heard the Minister underline that we want ARIA to transform real people’s lives, but how is ARIA to do that if its members do not have experience on the ground in the different regions and nations of our country and if they do not understand the way in which the supply chain works in Aberdeen, for example, for specific technologies and sectors? We do not want ARIA to have a narrow focus or a narrow background of expertise. On that basis, I wish to press the amendment to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chi Onwurah]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is important to understand that ARIA will be an independent agency, but it will be spending taxpayers’ money and it will therefore reflect the public and the national interest. If somebody is recruited who, at the time or later on, is found to have views that are abhorrent to society, or not fit to serve on the board for other reasons, by what process could or would such a person be removed from the board? If, for example, after appointment of a member to the board, it was found that they championed eugenic research or that they believed in anti-vaccination mythologies, for example, would there be any means by which they could be removed?

[Kirsty Blackman]

Does the shadow Minister find it bizarre, as I do, that we have a higher bar for taxi drivers, for example, who have to pass a “fit and proper person” test in order to become a taxi driver, than for these people, who will be spending millions of pounds of public money? I recognise that that is a sensible thing to do, but there is not the level of oversight that we have for people such as taxi drivers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Amanda Solloway]

To reiterate, and building on my previous comments, contracts are determined by the chair. The contracts that people will have are to be negotiated. Furthermore, in extremis, the Secretary of State may remove the chair and other non-executive members if he or she is particularly concerned by the quality of executive members recruited by the chair. It is for those reasons that the amendment is not necessary, and I hope the hon. Lady will not press it.

[Kirsty Blackman]

We have asked an awful lot of questions about the appointment of the CEO and chair. Does the Minister understand that her answers have not given us comfort? To say that the roles will be appointed by the chair and the chief executive does not help us a huge amount, because we are not very happy about the process of appointing those people, so for them to be able to appoint other people does not help us in any way, shape or form. Having more safeguards in place would give us comfort that those people will be fit to do the job.

[Chi Onwurah]

I echo the point made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North. We recognise that a significant amount of power lies in the chief executive and the chair, and there is no oversight from Parliament or others of those appointments. To say that the chief executive and the chair will have the power according to contractual negotiations to remove members does not reassure us. The Minister said that the Secretary of State could, in extremis, remove the chair. Would she write to me to set out what the in extremis circumstances would be?

I am keen not to detain the Committee unnecessarily. We are raising important matters, but since the Minister is not happy to accept them, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsty Blackman]

I beg to move amendment 29, in schedule 1, page 10, line 5, at end insert—

“(3) The report must include—

(a) statistics on the gender balance of—

(i) executive board members

(ii) non-executive board members

(iii) senior staff; and

(b) financial information on the gender pay gap among ARIA employees and appointees.”

This amendment is intended to ensure that this public body may be held accountable for its gender representation.

The Minister just made a helpful comment about the memorandum of understanding that will happen between BEIS and ARIA, but her comment was not quite strong enough for me. She said it was likely to include these things—perhaps very likely. Will the Minister tell us that it will include the geographical disbursement covered in the previous amendment, and the gender balance of the board members and senior staff and the gender pay gap, as covered in amendment 29? If we are asking companies to report on the gender pay gap in their annual reports, as we are and should be doing, it is not out of the question to ask ARIA to do the same.

The measure is particularly important because the Government are absolutely intent on excluding ARIA from freedom of information; if ARIA is excluded from FOI, we are not able to see that information. We will not have the level of scrutiny that we normally have over a public body. We have talked at some length— the shadow Minister spoke at some length—about the importance of gender balance, diversity and having women in senior roles. It is also important that we do not have a gender pay gap within ARIA. We know that the glass ceiling in areas such as engineering is very significant. We want to ensure that women are promoted to all levels within the organisation, that women are paid fairly within it and that we are able to scrutinise the information.

I would really appreciate it if the Minister stood up and said, “Yes, absolutely—we will be negotiating that as part of the MOU.” That would be massively appreciated because it is incredibly important.

[Chi Onwurah]

I rise briefly to speak in support of the amendment. As the Bill stands, ARIA will not be subject to freedom of information requests. If there is no requirement to report on gender balance and the gender pay gap, will we have any understanding of the way in which ARIA is reflecting the gender diversity that we hope to see in the organisation?

Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Chi Onwurah and Kirsty Blackman

Tuesday 20th April 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Kirsty Blackman]

I absolutely agree. This measure should be included in the Bill as a safeguard or a fallback—a failsafe. I appreciate the public sector equality duty exists, but that is not strong enough to give me comfort.

When women do engineering degrees, they get better degrees than men. They get a better class of degree—the statistics prove it. If we want the highest possible quality of people, from diverse backgrounds, pushing innovation forward and trying to, for example, make the renewable energy technologies of the future, we need to ensure diversity on the board and more widely in the staff of ARIA.

[Chi Onwurah]

I echo the disappointment of the hon. Member for Aberdeen North in the Minister’s response, who takes this issue very seriously. The architect of ARIA and the debate around it have focused very much on great individual minds of science, generally men, and how they should be left on their own to go off and discover new and exciting things. These amendments would send a really important message to the science community that ARIA is an inclusive agency and that, regardless of what some may have said or envisaged, this is about the whole of the United Kingdom. I would emphasise that we still have far, far to go to reflect diversity in the science community.