Data (Use and Access) Bill [Lords]

Chi Onwurah Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 12th February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Peter Kyle]

That is the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s second audition of the day. I am open-minded on these issues, and I take leadership from the Leader of the House on Committee matters.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Secretary of State on this Bill, and on setting out the importance and ubiquity of data; the current confusion on data sharing, data formats, data processing and data usage; and the lack of action by the previous Government to address some of these issues.

Given the evolution of AI technology, its simply being a method of processing data and its growing importance and applications, can this Bill possibly address all future issues? Is this Bill the Government’s last word on data, or is it their first word?

[Peter Kyle]

Of course, we should have had this Bill two years ago. We have seen enormous progress on AI technology since then. I have been at the Paris summit for the past few days, and I saw where this technology is heading. Huge advances in the power of AI and the move towards artificial general intelligence are happening faster than anybody imagined. I cannot guarantee that this Bill will be sound for time immemorial, but I can say that it is fit for the moment in which we are living.

I reassure my hon. Friend that all our regulators have been tasked with assessing how non-frontier AI, as applied throughout the economy and society, will impact the sectors they regulate. The Department for Science, Innovation and Technology is offering assistance, where needed, as we assess the impact across our society.

My hon. Friend refers to a general-purpose technology, and it will therefore be applied and deployed in different parts of the economy and society in very different ways. We must make sure that, as a society, we deploy it safely. Once we ensure that the technology is safe, we can embrace it and explore all the opportunities that it offers.

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[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for setting out the reasons why the Bill is so important. I welcome the measures that will help to make people’s lives easier and unlock the full power of data to deliver the Government’s missions, including the important mission of growing our economy.

After two false starts with data Bills in the previous Parliament, it seems that the third time is the charm. That may be a consequence of our particularly charming Front Bench, as pointed out earlier, but it is certainly right that we have before us a data Bill that addresses the way in which data has increasingly become fundamental to our society and our economy. It really is fantastic to see the Government leading the way on action to make the most of data’s potential.

Some 85% of businesses handle digitalised data and the British data economy represents around 7% of GDP. I use those two statistics to emphasise that data is not remote and abstract; it is part of our everyday lives and of our businesses’ lifeblood, and that is precisely why the Bill promises to be so transformative. I want to emphasise that we are all walking data generators—we all generate data, all the time. That does not mean that we have to be wearing a Fitbit or some sort of smart device, though we all have two or three, generally; we all generate data.

When the Select Committee that I have the good fortune to chair was looking at the algorithms of social media companies as part of our inquiry into those algorithms and the Southport riots, it was clear that social media advertisers and others are effectively generating digital twins of us all. The thing with a digital twin, which represents us in data, is that there is not just one and it certainly is not under our control. Many companies and organisations, and all those who wish to understand their potential customers or users, have data on us and are tracking data, including that which we generate. Therefore, to have a Government who lead the way in ensuring that that data is managed, generated, stored and shared in the interests of the general public, and that it is better understood by Government and the public services for which they are responsible, is so important.

Driving higher productivity through the smart use of data not only will grow the economy but, as the Secretary of State set out, will make all our lives easier. In an era when we increasingly interact with public services online, the measures in the Bill will enable a modern digital Government, which will save people time. Boosting our public sector productivity, which has been stubbornly low in recent years, will help to deliver the efficient, effective public services that our constituents expect and deserve. That includes freeing up to 1.5 million police and 140,000 NHS staff hours a year to focus on protecting us, saving lives and providing better NHS treatment and all the other services that need to be people driven. An important part of the Bill is that it recognises that freeing up administrative effort through better joined-up data sharing, collection, storage and so on gives people greater opportunity to deliver services for others.

I particularly welcome the national underground asset register. Before I became an MP, as I may have mentioned at some point, I worked as a chartered engineer in what my constituents continue to call “a proper job”. As the head of technology for Ofcom, I spent an amazing amount of time trying to work out what BT had underground. I thought that, in part, it was BT being reluctant to share their knowledge of their underground cables and systems—part of that was their ducts and so on—because of that opening them up to competition. I eventually realised, however—this is some time ago, so I hope they will not mind me saying this now—that they did not know what they had underground and their own systems did not reflect what was under the ground or what their assets were. When it came to repairing a fault or improving or upgrading to a new network, therefore, not only was there the additional cost of trying to find out what was there, but systems were designed slowly or wrongly.

The Secretary of State referred to traffic jams being caused by roads being dug up in the wrong place. That is a fundamental example of the impact of not having simple, accessible and secure data on our assets. It seems amazing that I was working on the issue as a regulator 15 or 16 years ago, and that only now under this Labour Government are we addressing that essential national asset.

I will also briefly mention advances in digital identity, which will deliver tangible benefits to the public, making tasks such as opening a bank account, starting a new job or renting a flat that much easier. I will not go into the debate on whether digital ID should be mandatory, but I will certainly say that it should be available and accessible to everyone. I have a constituent who was obliged to take a photograph of himself with the The Chronicle, the local newspaper of the day, in an attempt to prove to the Department for Work and Pensions that he existed because he was disabled and could not go into the jobcentre. That was the only way open to him for verification, because he did not have a passport or a driving licence. I hope the measures set out in the Bill will enable digital ID to be accessible to those who need it.

The Bill also promises an approach to data that is, in some quite literal ways, cradle to grave, including for patient passports, electronic registration of births and deaths, and critical services such as benefits and so on, which I have referred to. It is therefore vital that the public have confidence in our country’s data protection regime. I have long argued—and it was great to hear the Secretary of State say essentially the same thing—that we can unlock the benefits of data only if there is public trust. Often, my constituents feel that advances in technology are done to them, rather than with them and for their benefit. Critically, our constituents need to feel they have agency over the way in which data impacts their lives. Rather than feeling empowered by digital innovation, too many feel the opposite: disempowered, undermined, dehumanised, tracked and attacked.

As an engineer with 20 years’ experience before entering Parliament, I found it deeply disturbing to follow the trajectory of tech from boring but incredibly useful, which was how it was when I started my career, to exciting but exploitative, which is how too many of my constituents view it now. I always say that I came into politics for the same reason I went into engineering, which was to make the world work better for everyone. I think the Bill can significantly contribute to that, with its emphasis on high standards for protecting personal data, including the strengthened role for the Information Commissioner and the new measures to protect the data of children. Delivering the improvements promised by the Bill must therefore go hand in hand with respecting the rights of citizens to control and manage their data.

So important is data that already, in the first few months of its existence, the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee, which I chair, has extensively discussed many of the issues being addressed by the Bill. In our session with the Secretary of State, we discussed the problems of legacy systems and inconsistent standards for information in the NHS. It is good to see that the Bill looks at addressing that. The Secretary of State made it clear that he understood the scale of the challenge, and I think he has delivered on his pledge to us to deliver a Bill that safeguards data.

We also discussed the considerable unmet demand for digital ID, which the Bill will meet, and the need to focus on outcomes, with the chief scientific adviser echoing in her session with us the idea that data gathering must be proportionate, seeking to answer specific questions and not hoovering up data willy-nilly. This Bill is in that spirit, taking a pragmatic approach that seeks to use data to solve problems, not to needlessly extend the role of Government or big tech in our lives.

We have heard about the exciting ways that data can help solve problems right across Government. In the Committee’s session yesterday, the Science Minister, Lord Vallance, spoke about the importance of data to the Health Secretary’s ambition to move from cure to prevention in the NHS, and the role that genomics and the revolution in life sciences could play in transforming healthcare. I hope the Minister will address in his closing comments the single data health record for the NHS. It is important to have a consistent, safe, secure and shared understanding of a patient’s treatment, and I ask him to address how the evolution of the role of genomics and the detailed personal data in any genomics record will be reflected in the provisions of the Bill.

In the Committee’s session on the Budget, we also discussed the data environment, the infrastructure around data, and how that is critical to our future success in supporting private sector growth and delivering modern public services. I welcome that the Government have made data centres part of our critical national infrastructure. That recognises a reality that has been there for some years now.

Last week the Committee launched our inquiry into the “digital centre of government”—a change in the machinery of government that the new Labour Government made, centring digital transformation and digital government in the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology in order to enable the revolution in public service delivery that is part of the Labour Government’s ambitions. The effective implementation of this Bill is essential to the rewiring of data in a digital Government.

It is also critical that there is the political will to ensure that the effective sharing of data across Government serves the Bill’s intentions of supporting public trust, consistency of standards and consistency of data formatting. When the Minister responds to the debate, will he say a little more about the role of open standards and open source? The Secretary of State has already spoken about transparency, but will the Minister talk about the role of open standards and open source in ensuring that we have a consistent framework for data sharing across Government?

I look forward to engaging with Ministers in the Department in the months ahead on the Committee’s inquiry and on the progress of the Bill, which marks an important and overdue step in delivering a digital Government fit for the future.

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[Pete Wishart]

Again, I am grateful to the Minister for intervening in such a helpful manner. I am not particularly averse to secondary legislation—it has its place and purpose, and if it helps achieve desired outcomes then I have no issue with it. This is what my constituents want. I have been knocked out by the number of emails I have received and secured from my constituents asking me to support the creative sector in the consultation on copyright and AI, and to back the amendments as the Bill goes through the House. There does not seem to be any doubt that most of our constituents seem to be in partnership with their artists and the creative sector on this matter. I think what they want to see is the Government showing the same determination and ambition for our creative sector and our artists. They have that opportunity. I will be patient with the Minister. He has hinted occasionally about having some sort of solution that defends and protects our copyright regime, while at the same time supplies what he requires to ensure ambition in the AI sector. We are all looking forward to doing all that.

[Chi Onwurah]

I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for giving way. I did not include this point in my own contribution, because I did not realise that the AI copyright issue would be such a big part of the debate, but I just want to let him and the House know that the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee sat together with creatives and technologists to discuss how the technology solutions the Minister is looking for could address the exact point that he is making: supporting copyright and providing access to data. Google and OpenAI refused to take part, because they said their response to the consultation was ongoing. As an engineer, I think that you should always be able to explain what you are doing in the midst of you doing it, but that was their position. However, the technologists who were there had a view that technology could—there was not a consensus—support that, although not necessarily immediately.

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful to the Chair of the Select Committee. She is absolutely right. Her Committee has a central role in looking at these issues and I wish her well in any of the inquiries she launches. It is particularly disappointing that Google and other AI companies will not come to her Committee. I hope that she uses the powers that I know, as a former Select Committee Chair, can be used to oblige reluctant witnesses to come in front of her. I am pretty certain that somebody who is as determined an individual as she is will be able to secure that.

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[The Minister for Data Protection and Telecoms (Chris Bryant)]

I am a DSIT Minister today, but the debate felt remarkably like the creative industries debate a couple of weeks ago, when I was responding as the Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism. I will get on to some of the points about AI and copyright later, so if anybody wants to intervene on me they can wait for that bit.

I will start with some of the points hon. Members have made. The measure on the NHS and data is among the most positive in the Bill, and was welcomed by everybody today. It was not in the previous version of the Bill; it is one of our additions. The other day, a colleague was telling me about her local hospital, and I was struck by the fact that it employs 42 people simply to carry around physical medical records. We have put our backs into changing that. That is not a good way to preserve records, or to ensure they are secure and not getting lost, let alone anything else.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket (Peter Prinsley) was absolutely right when he talked about patient passports. We need to turn the issue on its head, so that people have access to their data and can participate in and make better decisions about their own healthcare. As I said to my hon. Friend yesterday, that is similar to the change that happened a few years ago. After an appointment, consultants used to write to GP about the patient in doctor gobbledegook, but now many of them write to the patient in plain English, copying in the GP. That is the kind of change we need to see.

I am very hopeful about the changes that will be introduced by the Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Sam Carling) said, they will make dramatic difference. We need to ensure the interoperability of all the IT systems used across the whole of the NHS. I would like to extend that beyond England and Wales; I would not mind if we could manage to do the same for Scotland and Northern Ireland, but I fear that even my friend the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire (Pete Wishart), who likes me sometimes, would baulk a little at a United Kingdom-wide approach to such matters.

I am also excited about the elements of the Bill on smart data, which have barely had a look-in in today’s debate but which could be transformative in many sectors. Many of us will know that when we use our banking app, we are enabled to go not just to our bank but to our insurance, including our car insurance, and all those things can be related to one another in a secure way. That is because of the smart data system that has been in existence for the last few years. We need to roll that out in many other sectors, and that is precisely what the Bill allows. For instance, in the gig economy, it will mean that Uber drivers and those delivering for Deliveroo will have a better understanding of whether they are actually earning a living from each delivery.

Thirdly, nobody has referred to the reform of the Information Commissioner’s Office. It is an important part of the Bill. There have been brief mentions of the register of births and deaths, which basically brings the modern world to the register office. As a former vicar, I suppose I am more interested in that than most, as I have hatched and dispatched quite a few in my time.

[Chi Onwurah]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Chris Bryant]

On births and deaths? Of course.

[Chi Onwurah]

I thank the Minister for his excellent comments. I want to point out that I welcomed the strengthening of the Information Commissioner’s role.

[Chris Bryant]

Hurrah. Incidentally, the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) referred to John Edwards, who, in my experience, is a very capable leader of the team there. I am sure my hon. Friend and her Select Committee will have him in for evidence soon.

A couple of Members referred to data adequacy, including the hon. Member for Harpenden and Berkhamsted (Victoria Collins). That is obviously important to us. As the right hon. Member for Maldon said, the Secretary of State has been working keenly with the European Commission. Unfortunately, the previous Government ended up with a data adequacy agreement with the EU that expires later on this year. That means that our time is tight to make sure we maintain that. That is absolutely vital to our economic success as a country and, for that matter, for the rest of the EU. I know that everybody wants to get there. It is not for us to tell the EU what processes it should go through, but we have had very constructive conversations so far. They will not want to comment on a Bill that is still in flight, so the sooner we can get it on to the statute books the better.

My hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Anneliese Midgley) referred to music remuneration. For me, the issue of remuneration of musicians is not just about the AI copyright debate; there are many other issues. I do not think we have finished with the issue of streaming, incidentally. I had a successful meeting with the record labels, lots of musicians and the Musicians’ Union on Monday afternoon. I have given them a clear timetable for coming back with a better offer to make sure that musicians are properly remunerated.

A quite famous tenor, who I will not name, texted me yesterday to say:

“Musicians all feel that they have been sooooooo ripped off by streaming.”

That is “so” with seven o’s—I do not know what Hansard will do with that.

“I used to get two or three concert fees as advance royalty for a CD. Now, it is effectively zero. It is theft, really.”

Those remarks have been repeated in a different context today. We are working on that, and I am determined that we will have a proper look at how we properly remunerate our musicians in this country, even if it is only to make sure that the shadow Minister, who declares that live music is one of the most important things in his life, has people to go and listen to.

The hon. Member for North Norfolk (Steff Aquarone), who has just come back into the Chamber, made a very good speech about digital government. All the points that he made are ones that we are determined to take up. Several Members referred to Estonia—Tallinn, incidentally, is one of the best cities in Europe to visit—but we also need to make sure that there is a digital inclusion element to that. If 19% of poorer homes in the UK have no access to the internet, they will not have any access to Government digital services either. We need to transform all that, and the Secretary of State and I will probably have something to say about that in the near future.

The right hon. Member for Maldon noted one other Labour change, on subject access requests. We would argue that one of the problems with the previous Bill was that it would have made it more difficult for people to get subject access request information. That is why we have a system where we think we have strengthened those rights, and that we think is better for the average person in the street.

The hon. Member for Huntingdon (Ben Obese-Jecty) referred to Baroness Owen’s amendments. We are not quite sure that these are right. We want to ensure that we have a workable solution that everybody agrees with by the time we finish in Committee. I am not sure whether he will be serving on the Committee, but perhaps that is a debate we will have—I look forward to that. We are very open to seeing how we can make sure that all the i’s are in the right place and all the t’s are correctly crossed—not dotted.

The hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson) made some important points, although I have to say that I disagree with her—she may not be entirely surprised by that. In relation to the amendments brought forward by Lord Lucas, public authorities must assess what information is required for a particular purpose. This governs whether and how sex or gender data is processed in a given situation or a given case. They are bound by data protection legislation to ensure that the personal data is accurate for this purpose. Where sex at birth is not an essential part of an identity check— for instance, when renting a property—organisations are not lawfully able to request this information. I think that is absolutely right for protecting people’s privacy.

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[Chris Bryant]

Tracey Emin and Russell Tovey have also invited me to Margate, so I think it is inevitable at some point.

We are trying to get to a win-win, and we do not believe that is unachievable, which is why I am keen on sticking with the process of the consultation. We will respond to the consultation as soon as we can, although a large number of people have responded and we want to take the response seriously. Whatever we choose to do in the end, I would have thought that it will look like a full, stand-alone Bill. That may include elements of what Baroness Kidron has put in, elements from elsewhere or, for that matter, bits of the copyright directive, such as articles 18 and 20, which the former Government helped draft and then did not incorporate into UK law. It might be a whole series of different things, but it needs to be considered in the round.

[Chi Onwurah]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Chris Bryant]

Oh Lord! I was sort of trying to get to the end.

[Chi Onwurah]

I share my hon. Friend’s desire to get to the end, and his faith in the ability of technology to deliver solutions. As I said in an earlier intervention, my Science, Innovation and Technology Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport Committee brought together technologists and creatives with exactly that ambition. I am pleased to hear about the working groups that he has put in place, but I urge him to be transparent about who is in them—not necessary now, but perhaps he will write to my Committee—so that we can see how they are progressing in a transparent way. It is important that the technological solutions are viewed as openly as possible.

[Chris Bryant]

Yes, we will be transparent about the transparency working groups—it is a good point. For that matter, I am happy—as are any of the Ministers—to give evidence to my hon. Friend’s Committee, or to a joint Committee, on those inquiries.