Calais Children and Immigration Act

Carolyn Harris Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Goodwill]

The demographics of the children in the camp are that 90% were male and 60% of them were in the age group of 16 and above. We are determined to assess the most vulnerable children, as they are the ones whom the Dubs amendment suggests that we assess. That includes those who are 12 and under; those who are 15 and below whose nationalities are likely to qualify them for refugee status; and those at high risk of sexual exploitation, including particularly the girls who could be trafficked.

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

The qualifying eligibility criteria for children from Calais are a disgrace. The children have to meet one of the following criteria: they are aged under 12; they have been referred by the French authorities as being at high risk of sexual exploitation; they are aged under 15 and are Syrian or Sudanese; and they are aged under 18 and the sibling of a child in one of the former categories. They must also all meet the following criteria: it must be in the best interests of the child; they must have been in Calais on or before 24 October 2016; and they must have been in Europe before 20 March 2016. The criteria are a disgrace, and are certainly not in the spirit of the Dubs amendment.

On the basis of the criteria, it seems that any child at medium or moderate risk of sexual exploitation is on their own. A child is a child until the age of 18, and it is wrong to restrict children’s right to transfer based on their age. It is not clear what the basis or authority for determining the additional criteria are, or whether there is any appeals procedure.

The arbitrary dates mean that children who came to Europe after 20 March are on their own, whatever their age, and that children who came to Europe after 24 October are on their own. Children are at risk of all kinds of exploitation, including trafficking, forced labour and modern slavery, but this Government do not care. [Interruption.] If Members are not comfortable with what I am saying, that is not my problem. Without a proper asylum process, we risk pushing children into taking dangerous journeys to the UK in order to get a fair hearing for their asylum claim. None of this meets the Dubs amendment, which is that any child who would benefit from asylum in the UK should be granted it—up to 3,000 children. Will the Government now meet the full demands of section 67 of the Immigration Act 2016 as voted for in this House?

[Mr Goodwill]

The hon. Lady has gone completely over the top. I am proud that the United Kingdom is the second biggest donor in the region. I am proud that the United Kingdom has agreed to take 20,000 people from the region and an additional 3,000 people, including children from the wider area. I am proud of the work that we are doing and I am proud that we are meeting our obligations under the Dublin regulations and the Dubs amendment. If she reads the Dubs amendment, she will understand that the number we bring across should be able to be accommodated by our local authorities.

I have been working very closely with local authorities. I met representatives of the local authorities at their summit on 13 October and I spoke at their conference on 3 November. We are working very closely with them to ensure that the children we bring across can be accommodated, and, as I have said, 118 local authorities are doing that.

I remind the hon. Lady that the children we do not bring across are not in Syria, but in France, which is a civilised country with a developed social system. Those children are being well supported and well looked after in France. The children about whom I am most concerned are those who are still in Syria—they are the ones we are endeavouring to help.

The reason why we do not consider children who arrived in Europe after 20 March is, simply that we do not want to introduce a pull factor that will incentivise parents to pay people traffickers to help their children make that hazardous journey across the Sahara, across the Mediterranean and, in many cases, end in a watery grave. That is why that date has been chosen and why we do not want to do anything to introduce a pull factor that would increase the number of people drowning in the Mediterranean or the Aegean.

Criminal Finances Bill (Second sitting)

Carolyn Harris Excerpts

Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Wallace]

Q You quote the Panama papers, which was a significant leak, and there have been previous ones—Liechtenstein and others. The access that our law enforcement agencies will now get will be greater than the Panama papers. The Panama papers are not complete, and they are effectively within the control of the journalists in the sense that they were selectively leaked to them and then published. No one is able to get the full picture because we do not have open access to Panama, which is not a Crown dependency or an overseas territory; it is a place that Scotland had a bad relationship with a few hundred years ago.

What we are proposing, and what the Crown dependencies are giving our law enforcement access to, is the complete picture. In one sense, we will have a greater advantage than the Panama papers because our law enforcement agencies will be able to have full access to the full range automatically. Therefore, in one sense we are 90% there. As you said, we do not have the transparency bit, but the Government’s intention is to do that. We are doing it, first, by leadership. We are the first in the G20 to say it is our aspiration. The step that seems to be mooted is to impose the sovereign will of Parliament on them, but in 12 months we have gone 90% of the way.

Toby Quantrill: We are looking for a timeline. We must give time and support to moving in that direction and be clear about when we are going to reach it. The Panama papers demonstrated the power of making this information public, because the impact has been global. In countries all around the world, citizens have gained information about people often within their Government and judiciary, and they have been able to investigate, follow those leads and hold their Governments to account. That is the power of transparency. It should be full transparency, not just the bits and bobs. We should not have to rely on leaks to hold our Governments to account. That is the point we are making.

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

Q Have you ever heard of the Magnitsky clause?

Toby Quantrill: No.

[Carolyn Harris]

Okay. It is not relevant, then.

Toby Quantrill: Sorry.

[Carolyn Harris]

Q This is a blank piece of paper. If you had the opportunity to write what is in the Bill, what would be on it?

Toby Quantrill: There is already an amendment—new clause 4—that we support. The critical thing is to see action, whether within the Bill or through other means, to get the outcome we are looking for. All I would write on that paper is simply a public register of beneficial owners in overseas territories by whatever means. As I said at the start, this is a Criminal Finances Bill, and it seems odd not to include that issue in it.

David Leask: I have nothing to say on that, I am afraid.

[Richard Arkless]

Q First, David, thank you for your groundbreaking work. I was very heartened to hear what Ben, the Minister, said about reading your work and taking note of it. I was encouraged to hear that. Let me be the matchmaker in the middle here. Would you be willing to work with the Government and provide them with all the evidence you have uncovered in the past few months, based on what Ben has said?

David Leask: It is entirely published in the pages of what Mr Wallace would like to call the Glasgow Herald. It is therefore up to date. I can offer you a subscription, if you like.

Criminal Finances Bill (First sitting)

Carolyn Harris Excerpts

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Byron Davies]

Q My question is simply this, with respect to unexplained wealth orders and politically exposed persons. It is perhaps more to you, Mr Harman, than anyone. The measures reflect the concerns about those involved in corruption overseas and laundering of the proceeds of crime. How operationally viable do you think those are from an investigation point of view, particularly with some of the more difficult countries that we have to deal with?

Detective Superintendent Harman: I think there will be challenges, as you have highlighted. The unexplained wealth orders will help us to deal with the higher end, if I can call it that, of terrorist financing, where there are perhaps sham companies or charities being exploited and it is far more complicated. Such a power will ensure that people account for the money that they have. It will be challenging. To be honest with you, it will be a small part of our casework in the terrorism financing context, but it will be helpful.

Donald Toon: From our perspective—we run the international corruption unit for the UK—we see this as a hugely valuable step forward. We have a real problem at the moment in a number of jurisdictions where we cannot get usable evidence yet we have assets that are of deeply questionable probity. We do not expect the numbers to be huge, because the cases are large and complex, but we do think this is a very useful step.

Mick Beattie: We support that. Most of our international investigations go through the NCA anyway, so we agree with that.

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

Q I have one observation and one concern. The observation is that one of my colleagues mentioned that you would need to come back for more money, and another colleague said you would be self-funding. That means you will have to bring in far more than you cost to run, so just be aware of that.

I am really concerned that you are not concerned about money laundering in the gambling industry. You seem to have little or no evidence that that is an issue. I am very concerned that high street bookies are able to launder, and if they are not actually reporting any excessive or unusual activity, that is a great concern.

Donald Toon: Can I correct the position? The specific question I was asked was about the application of these powers to online gambling. Do we see the gambling industry as a potential risk for money laundering? Yes. Traditionally, it has been an area where money laundering has been relatively straightforward, in the sense of being able to demonstrate the source of funds. Actually, we have seen quite a lot of improvement in the way the gambling industry has targeted that, particularly through the casino structure. We work with the industry and the main industry bodies, and we work very closely with the Gambling Commission on the regulation of that, and we do see some very good reporting. Is it still an abused area? Yes. It is an ongoing risk; we do seek to target that risk. It was a specific question I was responding to.

[Carolyn Harris]

Q Is there a benchmark to which you would expect bookmakers to report high or excessive use in a high street bookmakers?

Donald Toon: We would expect them to apply an objective test for suspicion and report. That is the point where we work with the Gambling Commission on making sure that that test is right.

[Carolyn Harris]

Q But you leave it them to decide at what level they report?

Donald Toon: It is an important point. It is absolutely the decision of any part of the regulated sector, including gambling operators. It is their decision when they should report. Should they fail to report when they should have done so, there are consequences. If they could be shown to be facilitating money laundering when we had gone into a major investigation and tracked back, then there would be potential consequences. Either we would seek to take action ourselves, or we would refer them—it does not matter which part of the regulated sector we are talking about—to their supervising regulator for action.

[Carolyn Harris]

Q Would it be helpful if it was a mandatory reporting level? For excessive use of a fixed odds betting terminal, for example, if we set a level and said, “Anything in excess of £1,000 a day,” from someone who would not normally spend that money?

Donald Toon: Frankly, no, I do not think it would. Every time you set a level, all you do is encourage people to create a level of complexity that always keeps below the level.

Mick Beattie: It is about the suspicion. It is all relevant to that individual, that money laundering reporting officer, their level of suspicion and the circumstances or action that determines that suspicion.

[The Chair]

This will have to be the last question. You only have two minutes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Carolyn Harris Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Amber Rudd]

I pay tribute to Leicestershire County Council and all the local authorities that have stepped up and accepted unaccompanied children under the national transfer scheme. I assure my hon. Friend that the Government are committed to funding local authorities for the care of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. In July we significantly increased the rates by up to 33%. We will keep these arrangements under review.

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

We are experiencing a cut of over 30% to fire and rescue services funding, with 10,000 jobs lost. Rescues are at an all-time high, with firefighters carrying out, on average, more than 100 rescues per day. Speed is essential when responding, but with fewer firefighters and fewer fire stations, the possibility of a slow response could mean the loss of life. Will the Minister acknowledge that now is the time to invest in the fire and rescue services and stop the reckless cuts—to prioritise saving lives, not saving money?

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Brandon Lewis)]

First, I welcome the hon. Lady to her new position. I also take this opportunity to express my sympathy to all those affected by the recent devastating fires in Exeter, Birmingham, Doncaster and Cheshire, and to thank the firefighters for their efforts. They do save lives every day, as she outlined.

The hon. Lady should bear in mind that authorities still have more that they can do to reduce costs, as they say themselves. Over the past few weeks I have been talking at many conferences at which people have recognised the need to improve procurement and work collaboratively. She should also bear in mind that, since 2010, fire authorities’ non-ring-fenced reserves have managed to rise by 150%. There is still money so that we can ensure that authorities find future efficiencies.

Scamming: Vulnerable Individuals

Carolyn Harris Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

I wish to congratulate the hon. Members for Solihull (Julian Knight) and for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) on securing this most important debate. I also pay tribute to all those who have spoken today as their contributions have helped us to discuss this very important issue.

Scamming is an increasing problem in our communities, mostly targeting the elderly and vulnerable. The average age of a scam victim is 74. Given that the Office for National Statistics predicts that the number of elderly people in our communities will increase considerably to more than 15 million by 2030, the potential number of scamming victims is likely to increase as well.

It is not only the financial loss that causes pain, but the severe psychological and emotional wounds that can take considerable time to heal. Victims will inevitably suffer financial loss, and very often depression or even relationship breakdowns. What is terrifying is that, potentially, a third of all victims of scams will fall prey to another scam within 12 months.

Mass-mail scams alone cost the UK consumer between £1 billion and £5 billion every year, with an average loss per person of £1,000. It has been known for victims to lose up to £1 million of their savings. This week, a gentleman told a drop-in for scam awareness that he had lost his home to a scammer. There are more than 190 trading standards services across the UK, each working to tackle scams in their area. However, cutbacks and budget pressures mean that the number of officers working on the frontline has fallen by 53% since 2009. Some service areas are running with fewer than one professionally trained member of staff.

The current budget for trading standards services across the UK equates to just £1.99 per person per year. These local teams are in place to step in when a victim of a financial scam is identified and to work with the police to help bring justice. However, the fact that only 5% of victims report crimes, often due to embarrassment, means that criminals continue to scam vulnerable people of their savings with little consequence.

The National Trading Standards scams team was founded in 2012 and identifies vulnerable individuals to the local authority teams by using captured criminal databases. The team shares a £13 million target along with other financial crime teams, which is shockingly low when we consider that financial scammers cost UK consumers between £5 billion and £10 billion every year. National Trading Standards could tackle this issue more effectively in partnership with other Government agencies, such as adult social care and the police, by sharing intelligence and safeguarding victims. However, both bodies are experiencing their own limits on resources, reducing the opportunity for partnership with National Trading Standards. Safeguards against scams, harm and abuse need to be an integral part of care and support. This is a perfect example of this Government cutting funding to vital services, which has a detrimental effect on the public.

A vital tool in combating financial scams is consumer awareness. Many websites sell direct marketing leads to any purchaser without restriction. Many websites allow people to purchase lists of personal details for “market research”. However, those people do not necessarily have to represent a business to use them. One such site that I identified was Targets Located, which has a top 10 of people to be scammed. Disabled car buyers is at No. 1, with 390,000 people receiving the high rate mobility component of DLA—they are ripe for the picking. Second is high-stake shareholders. The third place belongs to people who regularly donate to charity. Such sites are making sure that, for a small fee, people can acquire the personal details of the most vulnerable people in our society. Regulation on the sale of personal data would dramatically reduce the number of vulnerable people falling victim to financial scams.

To tackle the issue of scamming, the Government seriously need to review police funding. Police resources are already suffering as a result of police budgets decreasing year on year. Should that be allowed to continue, we will see more scams being carried out in all our communities. Co-operation between trading standards and the police is vital but it can only happen if both services are given the funding for resources that they so desperately need. We have a moral responsibility to protect the elderly and vulnerable in our society. We must ensure that the resources to do that are made available to the professionals who have the skills to best offer this protection.

Oral Answers to Questions

Carolyn Harris Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Security (Mr Ben Wallace)]

First, we are investing in a new software programme for ActionFraud that will not only improve the analytics of crimes that are reported to it, but allow victims of fraud to track their cases in live time online. In response to my hon. Friend’s concern, I have also asked officials to look into how ActionFraud communicates with members of the public. I think it important to remember that these are victims, many of whom have done nothing wrong whatsoever and have been preyed upon by some of the worst people in society.

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary will be aware of continuing concern about the historical conduct of South Yorkshire police. I understand that she is meeting members of the Orgreave Truth and Justice Campaign next week to discuss their call for a public inquiry. Is she also aware of the tragic case of Terry Coles, a Swansea City supporter, who was trampled to death by a police horse at a football match in 2000? Will she agree to look at the evidence, and accept that, unless we have the truth about all these past injustices, we shall not be able to restore trust in South Yorkshire police?

[Amber Rudd]

The hon. Lady is right: I am meeting members of Orgreave Truth and Justice, and I look forward to having the opportunity to hear from them. The Government have not shirked in looking at historical cases, and if the hon. Lady wants to bring any more to my attention, I shall certainly look at those.

Online Child Abuse

Carolyn Harris Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2016 Westminster Hall

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Moon. May I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) on securing this very important and necessary debate? I congratulate her and other Members on the thoughtful and emotional speeches they have given.

Technology is a wonderful thing. It has moved on. I was 38 when I got my first mobile phone. Before that, I had a pager—something that not many people in this room will remember. However, that has come at a cost, and the cost is one that I fear is really not worth paying. The internet has provided our children with a world of new possibilities and opportunities. The digital age gives children access to knowledge, facts and friends all over the world, but the internet and the way it is being exploited by those intent on committing the most heinous crimes poses a considerable threat to the safety and wellbeing of all our children.

According to the Internet Watch Foundation, in 2015 more than 68,000 URLs were confirmed as containing child sexual abuse imagery, having links to the imagery or advertising it. As my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham said, that figure is up a frightening 118% since 2014. Behind every indecent image online and every video or photo of abuse, a child has been harmed or abused in the real world. The victim is condemned to repeated violation and degradation each time the image is accessed. Perpetrators are using the internet to sexually exploit children through manipulation and coercion.

The NSPCC found that in 2014-15 the internet was used in eight cases of child sexual abuse every day, including rape, online grooming and live-streaming of sexual abuse. As technology has developed, so have the ways in which children suffer bullying, which often takes place online and is relentless, without any sanctuary or safety for the child. As the mother of a teenage son, I know—I have seen the texts and the vile Facebook posts that kids seem to think are a way of life these days.

In 2015-16, ChildLine provided 4,541 counselling sessions about cyber-bullying, which is the highest the figure has ever been. The impact of this behaviour on children can be devastating, reducing their self-esteem, impairing their ability to establish normal relationships and, in extreme cases, leading to mental health problems, including self-harm and, tragically, suicidal thoughts. Children also face peer pressure to share explicit images and engage in harmful sexual behaviour. As technology has developed, sexting has become an increasingly common activity. With greater access to the internet, children are exposed to more and more harmful content. Frighteningly, many children believe that pornography is an accurate representation of sex. Just over 53% of boys and 39% of girls who were surveyed by the NSPCC said that they thought pornography was realistic. The images of sex, violence and consent portrayed through pornography are distorting the very way in which boys and girls relate to one another.

The problems outlined in today’s debate are not news; they are not new, and the Government know all about them. I am sure the Minister knows that children are growing up facing a tidal wave of online abuse, bullying, harassment, peer pressure and exposure to totally inappropriate content, yet we do not give them the tools to protect themselves, to recognise abuse and exploitation and to build resilience in coping. We do not give parents the knowledge and confidence to keep up to date with the threats their children are facing. We do not give teachers and other professionals the training they need to support children.

Will the Minister tell us whether she has any plans to help proactively protect children from online abuse, exploitation and cyber-bullying? Does she agree with the former Education Secretary, the right hon. Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), and with four Select Committees, MPs from across the House, children’s charities, experts and academics that mandatory, age-appropriate relationship education in schools would provide children with the knowledge and resilience they need to challenge this behaviour? Will the Minister today take the opportunity to put right what the previous Government got wrong by supporting and teaching our children to protect themselves from this phenomenon?

Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Temporary Class Drug) Order 2016

Carolyn Harris Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2016 General Committees

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your very wise chairmanship, Sir Alan. I congratulated the Minister earlier in the week, but it is a delight to see her again today and I congratulate her again. I will not talk for very long, unless people want to stay in this lovely cool room, in which case I am sure that I could accommodate a couple of hours.

The Committee is being asked to affirm the Government’s decision to renew the temporary class drug order on methylphenidate-based new psychoactive substances. Having carefully considered the health risks identified by the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, I confirm that the Opposition support the renewal of the temporary order.

There are serious health harms associated with these drugs, which the ACMD has stated present similar risks to other banned stimulants. The drugs are highly addictive and they appear temporarily to boost dopamine levels, creating a temporary sense of elation. Use of the drugs has led to violent and bizarre behaviour. Many users choose to inject, which increases the potential for infection and the spread of HIV. The consequences of taking the drugs can ultimately be fatal. Ethylphenidate, the most commonly used of the drugs, was found to be present in five post-mortem toxicology tests between 2013 and 2014.

As a result of those health harms, the Government last year received a recommendation from the ACMD that methylphenidate should be placed under a temporary class drug order. Parliament accepted that recommendation, as did the Opposition. That temporary class drug order has already led to positive outcomes. For example, as the Minister mentioned, Police Scotland has observed a significant reduction in both the physical and mental health issues associated with these substances. Given the risk to public health posed by these drugs and the evidence that the temporary ban is working, we believe that it is only appropriate that we support the Government’s request to extend the order. However, we have some questions to which the Minister might like to provide answers.

Ethylphenidate has been on the market for five years, but it took four years for the Government to obtain a temporary class drug order and we now find ourselves having to renew that temporary order as the ACMD has not finished its investigations. That process is incredibly slow and there is frankly no sign of it speeding up. I worry that, despite the passing of the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016, the ACMD appears unable to keep up with its workload. In a letter to the then Home Secretary in April, it commented:

“The speed at which advice has been required over the past year has meant that the ACMD has had to reprioritise its work programme”.

We believe that all the work done by the ACMD is vital and a priority, so it is clear that it is reprioritising work purely because of a lack of funding. We are concerned that the reason behind the slow implementation of the Psychoactive Substances Act is that the ACMD is underfunded. It is obviously unable to keep up with its workload, so is it not appropriate for the Government to consider temporarily boosting its funding until the 2016 Act is fully implemented?

Labour was clear during the passing of the 2016 Act that the Government should not allow it to be used as an excuse for not placing dangerous substances under the stricter controls in the Misuse of Drugs Act. Temporary class drug orders are a stepping stone to substances being permanently controlled by the Misuse of Drugs Act. They are issued only when the ACMD has identified substances as dangerous and potentially harmful. Can the Minister confirm that the order is not an exceptional case and the Government intend to continue using temporary class drug orders to deal with the most harmful new psychoactive substances that we see appearing every day?

In conclusion, the Opposition support the order. The ACMD has previously made a clear recommendation, based upon evidence, about the real harm being brought about by these extremely dangerous new psychoactive substances. In addition, the temporary order placed on the drug last year has already had success. We cannot allow that work to be jeopardised.

Draft Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (amendment) Order 2016

Carolyn Harris Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2016 General Committees

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Wilson? I welcome the Minister to her place and look forward to working with her closely in the coming days.

The addition of zombie knives to the offensive weapons list is warmly welcomed by Labour Members. We take great pride in what we see as a victory, because the Labour police and crime commissioner for the West Midlands, David Jamieson, has campaigned for these knives to be outlawed for a considerable time. A zombie knife is characterised by the following features: a blade that is more than 3.5 inches long; no practical usage; glorification of violence; bright colours; and over-the-top, unnecessary decoration.

Zombie knives have no practical use whatsoever and are sold as a collector’s item. However, they are primarily used by street gangs. With names like “headsplitter” and “death dagger”, no reasonable person would advocate their being made available to the public, but unfortunately they are. As the mother of a teenage son, it worries me greatly that these knives are so readily available. In the past three years, just over 11,000 children have been victims of knife crime, ranging from robbery to rape, kidnap and murder. The true figure could be as high as 18,000, as 15 police forces in England and Wales failed to provide official statistics to the “Drop the Knife” campaign. The same campaign claims that a child is arrested every two hours for carrying a knife—that is utterly shocking.

As the Minister mentioned, just two months ago a 17-year-old was sentenced to life imprisonment after attacking 17-year-old Stefan Appleton with a 24-inch zombie killer knife. Stefan died in hospital following the attack, in which the serrated blade was used to stab him in the chest and legs. That is probably the most high-profile case involving a zombie knife, but I am concerned there could be more incidents if these knives are made available. There were approximately 28,000 crimes involving a knife or sharp instrument in 2015, which is 9% up on the 2014 total.

The popularity and availability of zombie knives online is extremely worrying. When I searched “zombie knives UK” on Google, I was horrified to find not only that the top two results on the first page were online shopping results, but, as the Minister has said, that most of the knives were available for as little as £7.99. It is terrifying to think that somebody’s life could be taken for just £7.99.

During the House’s consideration of the Policing and Crime Bill, Labour Members pressed the Government to accept an amendment that would have ensured that such knives were not illegally sold over the internet to under-18s. The Government rejected the amendment, claiming that they had agreed a new set of principles with major retailers, including Amazon and eBay, targeted at addressing the problem. The agreement had been reached less than a month previously, and the Government asked for more time to give it a “chance to work”. The agreement has now been in place for more than three months, so it would be welcome if the Minister could update us on how effective it has been.

We welcome this amendment to the Criminal Justice Act. It is important that we do all we can to reduce the prevalence of all types of knives on our streets, especially zombie knives. Such ferocious knives have no practical use in our society, and I am glad that they will no longer be available on the open market. However, we would be most grateful if the Minister could assure us about the policing of online sales.

draft Telecommunications Restriction Orders (Custodial Institutions) (england and wales) regulations 2016

Carolyn Harris Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2016 General Committees

[Mr Hayes]

I asked the same question. My right hon. Friend is an immensely experienced parliamentarian with an eagle eye for these things. He will know that it is all very well to pass regulations, but unless we know that they will work, that does not mean a lot. Of course, there is the contextual point, and no doubt the hon. Member for Swansea East, in what I think is her first encounter of this kind, will want to ask questions on this as well. The problem is that if I am right about the context—the figures suggest that I am—and the problem is growing and the number rising, how do we chart what difference these measures make against that backdrop?

The answer, I think, is that we need to put in place— I am happy to commit to this now—a review of the effect of the regulations that involves prisoners themselves, through prison governors. We should involve the National Crime Agency, which of course will be associated with this, and the police, and I think that we should have the engagement of the prisoner community itself. By a variety of means we should conduct a review. On the basis of that review, we should consider the effectiveness of the regulations, and clearly that would mean that if we felt that they had not had an effect or we needed to do more, we would do more. I am more than happy to commit to that now, in the course of this Committee. As I have said, I have no doubt that the hon. Lady will want to question me further on that.

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

Presumably the Minister will be able to tell the Committee how far the range will extend when these blockers are installed in prisons. Will that affect local communities around prisons?

[Mr Hayes]

That in itself is an interesting point. The hon. Lady is absolutely right that that is one of the challenges technologically. We have been engaged with mobile phone operators on this, and I held a roundtable event at the Ministry of Justice with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Prisons very recently. One of the challenges is finding a technological solution that does not have unintended consequences of the kind the hon. Lady describes. Part of that review was to look at the changing character of technology, which of course is by its nature dynamic, to ensure—[Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

I asked those questions too when preparing for this short debate. In the course of my remarks, I will happily make clear the answers to those pertinent inquiries. The issue is of course most acute in the prison estate itself. The alarming thing—I think it is fair to be absolutely open with the Committee—is how apparently easy it is to smuggle those kinds of goods into prison. Of course, a SIM card is a tiny thing. There are even examples of devices being thrown over prison walls, and smuggling a very large number of very small SIM cards into and out of prisons has become something of a specialism for certain people. I am baring my soul to the Committee, but that is the way a Minister should behave among colleagues, because it is important that they know what I have asked of my officials.

My other question was whether it is possible to find a straightforward way of doing this merely by prison staff searching prisoners, dealing with visitors more effectively, checking cells and so on. However, given the sort of numbers I have mentioned, the logistics of that would of course make it extremely difficult. The business of switching SIM cards between phones, and indeed switching phones between prisoners, means that no prisoner is using the same SIM card on any consecutive days. Essentially, the trading of phones between prisoners, the movement of SIM cards and the business of bringing them into and out of the prison are such that simply putting in place a series of protocols, measures or disciplines in the prison would be insufficient to deal with this. We need to find a technological solution that is more comprehensive in its effect, which is precisely what these regulations do.

I turn now to the draft regulations, as I do not want to detain the Committee unduly, even though we are having this interesting and useful discussion. The draft regulations allow NOMS and other law enforcement bodies to apply to the county court for a telecommunications restriction order. If the court is satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that the handsets and SIM cards specified in the application are in use and inside a prison, they will make a telecommunications restriction order. The terms of the order will require the mobile network operators to take whatever action the order specifies to prevent or restrict the use of those handsets and SIM cards. In practice, the operators will blacklist the handsets, which will prevent the handset from connecting to the mobile network, irrespective of the SIM card inside that handset, and disconnect the SIM cards that are identified in the application from the mobile network.

The blacklisting of handsets and disconnection of SIM cards found to be operating without authority inside prisons will therefore allow us to take much more decisive, comprehensive and effective action against the use of mobiles that are doing the damage I described earlier.

The emphasis on asking the providers to engage in this process will rightly prompt members of the Committee to ask what view the providers take. I assure the Committee that this order has been brought to the House after extensive discussions with providers to ensure that they are satisfied that the measures contained herein will do the job that they are supposed to.

[Carolyn Harris]

For obvious reasons, I have had this discussion with several prison governors, and some see it as a much larger problem than others. For example, a women’s prison I visited recently said that there was no problem with mobile phones. In fact, only one had been confiscated in the last year. Will the cost of this be borne right across the Prison Service? Will prisons be expected to cut other budgets in order to pay for this technology?

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Lady makes a valid point. Let me be clear about the priority here, which is those institutions where we know there is a profound, serious, compelling problem. I have mentioned some figures, but I cannot give the latest data, given that it is not yet publicly available. I assure the hon. Lady that this is a growing problem. We know that, year on year, the use of mobile phones is growing—despite all the good practice of prison governors, by the way; this is by no means an indictment of their management. We know, too, as I have already described, that phones are being used to facilitate a large number of very serious crimes. The hon. Lady is right that that will vary to some extent from place to place. Of course, the nature of the order is that a TRO will be applied for only when we know there is good reason to do so. In that sense, it is specific to the problems she sets out. If an order is necessary it will be brought forward, and the judge must be satisfied that it is proportionate and, on the balance of probabilities, the right thing to do. There is due process associated with this: it is not a question simply of applying the regulations without consideration of where they are needed and why.

On the funding issue she raised, NOMS has secured funding centrally to operate the measure, so there will be additional money.

On the issue that my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate raised, the regulations apply only to custodial institutions. I take my hon. Friend’s point that there may be a good case to look more widely, if we can find evidence that mobile phones are being used for malevolent purposes elsewhere. As I said to the hon. Lady, this is about application based on need. Nevertheless, I would not want to ignore the implications of my hon. Friend’s remarks, and I will go away and look at that. It is not contained in this order, but he makes a valid point. If we find, on analysis, that there is a need to look at the issue more closely, we certainly will.

--- Later in debate ---

[Carolyn Harris]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. If hon. Members will forgive me, this may be a very short-lived appointment so I am going to make the most of it and actually speak out.

Mobile phones are brought into prisons primarily to carry out illegal activity. At a recent inspection of Her Majesty’s Prison Lindholme in Doncaster, 67 mobile phones, 145 SIM cards and a kilo of psychoactive substances were confiscated in just one month. Mobile phones in prison are a major concern and facilitate the introduction of illegal contraband, such as Spice, into the prison system. I recently visited several prisons, where I spoke to staff who informed me that the prevalence of contraband for smoking hung so heavy in the air on some wings that they could actually taste the atmosphere. They added that the use of mobile phones was primarily the cause of the stuff getting into the prison system.

The Government’s argument is absolutely correct. If we could make mobile phones in prison an impossibility, the effectiveness of contraband smuggling would diminish. I have alluded to the fact that not all prisons are affected by the problem and I am satisfied with the Minister’s reasoning on that. However, for prisons that do experience the problem, it is an epidemic and a serious problem.

As we learnt from the recent inspection at Her Majesty’s Prison Lindholme, the smuggling of technology is creative, and the result can be quite prolific. This week, the Daily Mirror reported that a prisoner in Her Majesty’s Prison Wandsworth used a mobile phone to post videos of his cell on Snapchat, and boasted about the availability of drugs and weapons inside. His cellmate was found to be posting selfies online from inside his cell. We have to look at the blockers as essential for some prisons, but should tailor our reactions accordingly, and I am sure that applying to courts for a restriction order will adequately provide for that.

Over the past few months, one thing I have noted when visiting prisons—especially women’s prisons—is that there is a problem with the cost of phone calls. Perhaps the Minister could share those concerns with his colleagues in the Ministry of Justice. Things are especially hard for women who have to keep in touch with their families, or control them with a long arm. They tell me that they have to put as much as £40 a week on the cards because the call charges from prison are so much more expensive than a phone contract would be. Although smuggling of phones was not an issue in the female prison I visited, I fear it may become one because women need to keep in touch with their families.

The majority of mobile phones smuggled into prisons are brought in to organise deliveries of contraband. Their presence is facilitating illegal activities, but it also makes a mockery of the custodial system if prisoners are using mobile phones to advertise their accommodation and activity to the outside world. That must be remedied as a matter of urgency.

A major concern is that technology advances so rapidly, so we need assurances that blockers are reviewed regularly. Everything should be done to ensure that is done annually, rather than over any longer period. By the time network signal blocking devices are installed in prisons, somebody will have found a way around the obstacle. They will undoubtedly find a loophole.

Another area of concern is BlackBerry Messenger, which I understand does not need a wi-fi or phone signal to transfer messages. It works via Bluetooth, so perhaps the next step should be to look into blocking the Bluetooth network. I am led to believe that prisoners have been able to get messages to the outside world using BlackBerry Messenger.

As long as we have assurances that the system will be effective and will be monitored in as fireproof a way as possible, the Opposition will not oppose the orders.