Family Businesses

Debate between Caroline Johnson and James Murray

Wednesday 26th February 2025 Commons Chamber

[James Murray]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to point out that, under the previous Government, there was a series of cliff edges and one-year extensions that provided no stability whatsoever to businesses trying to plan investment, hiring or expansion decisions. That is why we have decided to extend the relief that the previous Government were due to end in April 2025 for one further year, before introducing permanently lower rates from April 2026.

[Dr Johnson]

The Minister is talking about planning—I should declare an interest as a farmer’s wife—and says that 500 farmers will be affected. Of course, none of us can know who is going to die next year. While 500 farmers will be affected, there may be many, many more who might die and might be affected. There is a discrepancy between how many he thinks will definitely be affected—how many he predicts will die—and the actual number of people who may be affected and cannot plan their businesses accordingly, because they simply do not know. He argues that they can put their assets down a generation, but no one knows if there will be a car accident and the younger generation will be killed. He is simply taxing tragedy.

[James Murray]

I think I was following the hon. Lady point that in many cases no one knows when inheritance tax will be due, because people cannot predict the sad events that may happen in their lives. But it is clear that, in trying to work out the impact of changes to tax policy, the best source of data is the actual claims data for those reliefs in the past. That is exactly what we have used. We have looked at the HMRC data on actual claims under agriculture property and business property relief. That is what determines the data that I mentioned of up to 520 estates being affected in 2026-27.

[Dr Johnson]

My point was that the Minister may be correct that 520 estates will be affected, but others who may be affected will need to plan their businesses and lives accordingly. That is why so many more people are affected by his announcement than simply those who will die next year or the year after.

[James Murray]

I return to my point that three quarters of estates claiming agricultural property relief, or agricultural property relief and business property relief, will not pay any more inheritance tax in 2026-27 as a result of these changes. In terms of the extra inheritance tax liability, which is what the data about claims points towards, the data is clear that the majority of estates will not be affected. As I mentioned to several of the hon. Member’s colleagues on Conservative Benches, the data is set out in quite some detail in the letter that the Chancellor wrote to the Treasury Committee. If she has a look at the data in that letter, that might answer some of her questions.

I will briefly finish my comments in relation to business rates. I was thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Andrew Lewin) for intervening to point out what we inherited from the previous Government: a situation where relief for retail, hospitality and leisure was chopping and changing year to year. Indeed, from April this year there was to be a cliff edge, so it would have gone away entirely—according to the plans we inherited from the previous Government, there was to be no relief at all after April. We therefore decided to extend the relief at a fiscally responsible level for a further year, ahead of our permanent reforms coming in.

While we are on the subject of hospitality, let me address the absurd notion in the Opposition’s motion—I do not believe the shadow Chancellor mentioned this in his comments—that the pint is under threat. The pint is part of our nation, and we do not need a new law to protect the pint any more than we need a new law to say that the sun must rise in the morning—I wonder whether the Opposition Members who drafted that part of the motion may have been close to a number of points when they did so. In any case, I am proud to reject the insinuation in their motion and to put on record—if it needs to be said—that pints are at the heart of our nation and, under Labour, they will stay that way.

Winter Fuel Payment

Debate between Caroline Johnson and James Murray

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Commons Chamber

[James Murray]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The Chancellor will take all decisions in the Budget on 30 October—[Interruption.] Let me make one important point to him as we approach the Budget on 30 October: we know there are going to be difficult decisions that we have to take in the Budget and, frankly, that is a direct consequence of the decisions taken by him and his colleagues when they were in government.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

As he is a Treasury Minister, I wonder whether he could help me with this question. How many of the pensioners who will lose the winter fuel allowance today receive less than the average train driver the Government have just given a pay rise to?

[James Murray]

I understand the political point that the hon. Lady is trying to make. But let me be clear. If she is talking about pensioners, the foundation of state support for pensioners is the state pension, which is why the Government have committed to maintaining the triple lock for the duration of this Parliament.