Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Jack Rankin

Report stage & 3rd reading
Wednesday 26th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Dr Johnson]

As is usually the case, I find myself agreeing with my right hon. Friend, and that is of course why we have tabled the amendment: it will give us the evidence that we and the enforcement authorities require to make sure that the black market is reduced.

[Jack Rankin (Windsor) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend accept that there is not a risk that a black market will open, because a significant black market in tobacco already exists? In 2021, some 23.6 billion cigarettes were sold under duty, whereas in 2024 the figure was 13.2 billion, a 44% reduction. Yet an Action on Smoking and Health survey has found that smoking has reduced by only 0.5%. The black market is already here—it is not a new thing that will be created—so the Bill presents an even greater risk.

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend makes a fair point. We know the black market exists, but the amendment would enable the Government to understand the scale of that black market and the changes in it, so that regulation could be enforced more robustly.

On amendment 90, as currently drafted the legislation will ban all forms of advertising of nicotine and non-nicotine vapes, nicotine products and sponsorship that promotes those products. Adverts will no longer be permitted on posters, billboards or the sides of buses, and sports teams will be prevented from being sponsored by a vaping company. As a Member of Parliament and a children’s doctor, I have been very concerned by the sharp increase in children addicted to vaping and, more recently, the other nicotine products such as pouches that have begun to flood the market. Schoolteachers have reported that children are unable to concentrate or even to complete a whole lesson without visiting the bathroom to vape.

Action to tackle the rise in vaping is welcome, and I support steps that restrict the appeal of vapes to young people, including through flavours and packaging. However, as the Minister mentioned in her opening speech, vaping can be a useful smoking cessation tool for adult smokers trying to quit; in my view, that should be their only purpose. Within the context of proposed advertising restrictions, amendment 90 would ensure that vapes that are targeted solely as a quit aid, to help adults stop smoking, can continue, in recognition of their role in bringing down smoking rates.

Finally, new clause 20 would introduce a requirement on online vaping products to operate an age verification policy, as is currently the case in Scotland. Whether someone is buying vaping products online or in store, robust provisions must be in place to ensure that the purchaser is of legal age, and businesses must have a robust policy in place. As we have seen through recent tragedies, the age verification process for online sales on age-restricted products has not always been effective. The new clause would be an important step towards protecting children from accessing products online that they should not be able to buy.

In closing, the Conservative party has a strong record of action on tobacco control. It was under a Conservative Government that plain packaging was introduced for all tobacco products and that minimum pack sizes for cigarettes and rolling tobacco were introduced—policies that have been demonstrably effective at reducing smoking rates. I have personally campaigned passionately on the issue of tobacco and vapes for over two years, and I am pleased that some of my original amendments to the Bill have made it beyond Committee stage and are with us today. I was also glad to see some of the new Government amendments introduced on Report that were born of debates we had in Committee, which have strengthened the Bill.

Our amendments are designed to highlight some of the difficulties in the Bill. We oppose the Government’s power-grab—creating powers to ban smoking and vaping wherever they choose by regulation, but without consultation or enough notice. We have concerns about how the Bill will operate in practice, especially the burden on small businesses, and the potential for unintended consequences, such as a growth in the black market for tobacco products, so we ask that the Government seriously consider our amendments today.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourteenth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Jack Rankin

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Rankin (Windsor) (Con)]

I am afraid to say to Government Members and to the shadow Minister that I am going to break up the cosy consensus. I had lunch at the Institute of Economic Affairs, which has given me some classical liberal vibes. I know that that will warm the Minister’s heart.

Part 7 of the Bill will give the Secretary of State powers to designate smoke-free places through secondary legislation; clause 139 will do the same for vape-free places. I have a few concerns about that approach. First, it has the potential to force people who have already switched or are in the process of switching from cigarettes to vapes—or indeed to heated tobacco, which is the subject of the next clause—to use their devices in the same areas as smokers, which runs the risk of their moving back to cigarettes. There is a risk that the places designated for vaping will often be the places designated for smoking. We all agree that even though we do not want people to start vaping, we would rather that people vaped if they are on cigarettes. In my view, the clause will be detrimental to its own aims.

[Dr Johnson]

I appreciate that we do not agree on the point about vape-free places, but the argument that they will make people smoke seems to be based on the premise that if someone cannot have a vape in their office, they will pick up a cigarette. They cannot pick up a cigarette in their office either. If, as has been suggested, there is congruity between smoking and vaping, how is it that a person who cannot smoke or vape in a place will then decide to smoke when they go outside to an area that is not designated as smoke-free?

[Jack Rankin]

It is not that people are not going to vape. They will go outside to the designated vaping spot, which in the overwhelming majority of instances will be either the same place that is designated for smoking or immediately adjacent to it. If someone is a recent ex-smoker or is trying to quit, effectively forcing them to vape in an area near cigarette smoke seems incredibly damaging to public health. I do not think that that is a particularly controversial statement.

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[Dr Johnson]

Surely the alternative is asking people to vape elsewhere, although they would be exposing non-vapers and non-smokers—perhaps with clinical vulnerabilities, or perhaps children—to their vapes instead.

[Jack Rankin]

I will come on to the point about the relative effects of second-hand vaping and of smoking, but I will make some progress first.

My second point, which I have made throughout our debates on the Bill, is that we are potentially conflating vapes with cigarettes in legislation, which will exacerbate the misinformation that such alternatives are equally harmful to cigarettes. That will further undermine the Government’s goal of helping smokers to quit. Indeed, Action on Smoking and Health found:

“Half of all smokers…incorrectly believe vaping is more or equally as harmful as smoking…This is the highest ever proportion with this misconception across all waves of the survey and a significant increase on misperceptions found in 2023. Only one third of smokers understand vaping is less harmful than smoking.”

It seems to me that if we group vapes and cigarettes together and treat them in the same way, that misperception will only be exacerbated. That may further reduce the inclination of smokers to switch to vapes.

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[Jack Rankin]

My hon. Friend gets to the nub of the point that I am making. Vapes can be a tool to help the Government in their desire to create a smoke-free generation, and this legislation could be counterproductive to that, by their own measures of success. Members—certainly those on the Opposition Benches—have to engage with not necessarily the law that is written but how it will be implemented in reality. Businesses are likely to respond to this legislation by just putting up a sticker on the smoking shelter that says it is the designated vaping place as well. That is the risk.

[Dr Johnson]

Although I disagree with my hon. Friend on the principle of vape-free places, he is making a reasonable point about the enforcement and congruity with smoke-free areas. If there is not congruity with smoke-free areas, this legislation will be more difficult to enforce, because people will not know which is which and it will lead to more inadvertent errors. He also talks about the idea of vape-free areas being less important because vaping is potentially less harmful, but we do not know that.

[Jack Rankin]

As my hon. Friend knows, I am not a doctor as she is, but I will repeat that Cancer Research UK said that there is

“no good evidence that second-hand e-cigarette vapour is harmful”.

and Public Health England made a similar comment. I understand the point that the hon. Member for Worthing West has made a few times about the precautionary principle, but we could take that to any excess.

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[Dr Caroline Johnson]

Clause 140 and the associated provisions for the other parts of the United Kingdom provide powers for the Secretary of State to prohibit the use of heated tobacco products in England in places that are already smoke free. That will need to be enforced by people who may not be familiar with heated tobacco devices. Will the Minister comment on the training?

I have only once come across a heated tobacco device at a dinner at Westminster. I initially thought the gentleman was vaping at the table, but it turned out he was using a heated tobacco device, which I had a look at—I had never seen anything like it before. It may be all well and good in metropolitan London, where people may be more familiar with heated tobacco, but how will people who are not familiar with these devices and have perhaps never heard of them be expected to recognise them and know they are not legal?

Has the Minister any plans on how to educate the public on the presence of heated tobacco, what it is used for and what the devices look like, in order that the law can be enforced? How will he do so without providing an advert for it to people who are old enough to buy it—at least in the short term, until it becomes illegal?

[Jack Rankin]

Government Members will be glad to know that I do not intend to repeat my points from the previous clause. Like the shadow Minister, I am less familiar with heated tobacco products, but I suspect the arguments I made regarding clause 139 apply to clause 140.

I want to make two or three points specific to heated tobacco. As with vaping, designating smoke-free areas as also being heated tobacco-free is dangerous, as it forces consumers to use their less harmful products alongside smokers. The risk is to increase the chance of their moving back to cigarettes. I will quote Public Health England:

“Compared with cigarette smoke, heated tobacco products are likely to expose users and bystanders to lower levels of particulate matter and harmful and potential harmful compounds.”

It is not clear to me that there is an effect on a bystander of someone using these devices. The Cochrane review cited an earlier review on heated tobacco products that concluded that users and bystanders were exposed to toxicants,

“although at substantially lower levels than cigarettes”.

Perhaps the Minister could comment on the relative harms, but I am not convinced.

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[Jack Rankin]

The Minister is disagreeing, but he can combat that in his speech.

[Dr Johnson]

My understanding is that the industry, in the same way that it in the past marketed filters as a way of making things less harmful, when in actual fact the microplastics may have made them more harmful, may have advertised heated tobacco as a way of saying, “You’re not smoking it, so it’s not as bad for you.” It is not therefore a recommended quit aid, but a way for the industry to try to maintain its market.

[Jack Rankin]

My hon. Friend’s points have been noted for the record. From what I have read and seen in the representations to the Committee and more widely, heated tobacco seems to me to be similar to vaping, in the sense that we do not people to start it as a product, but it is less harmful than cigarettes, so we should try to facilitate a way for people to use those methods as cessation devices.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Twelfth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Jack Rankin

Committee stage
Thursday 23rd January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Rankin]

I thank the hon. Member for her intervention.

[Dr Johnson]

I just want to add to the point made by the hon. Member for Worthing West about the precautionary principle. One of the differences between tobacco products—for example, cigarettes—and vapes is that tobacco products in the form of cigarettes are relatively more uniform in their component parts than are vapes, and it may take quite a long time to work out which of the chemical components of vapes are harmful, so we do need to be more precautionary with that.

[Jack Rankin]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention and I will seek to address both interventions in my further remarks. The point I was making to the Labour party is that a lot of its Members have made the case quite eloquently that things such as fixed odds betting terminals, which are often aimed at working-class communities and in particular young men, are like crack cocaine. That is an incredibly dangerous part of gambling. I think online casinos fit in that higher band of harm. I suggest that in the broad sense of tobacco and gambling, online casinos would be more harmful than, for example, the odd cigar that I have had recreationally—I have already made that point—so I think there is very much an inconsistency here.

Look at the Premier League, for example. Hon. Members know that there are 20 football teams in the Premier League. Aston Villa FC is sponsored by Betano, and Bournemouth FC is sponsored by bj88; Betano is an online casino, and bj88 is an Asian gambling site. Brentford FC is sponsored by Hollywoodbets.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Jack Rankin

Committee stage
Thursday 23rd January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Rankin (Windsor) (Con)]

Members will be glad to know that I have curtailed my remarks, because the Conservative Benches almost seem to be in agreement, which will delight the Whip. However, I do have concerns about part 6 and some questions on a couple of specific points, and I would appreciate it if the Minister considered them.

One of my concerns is the potential weakness of the public consultation aspect. It is my understanding that other parts of this Bill—particularly flavours and packaging restrictions—will be consulted on before secondary legislation is introduced, but that that is not necessarily the case for this part. This part should be subject to that same level of public scrutiny. It seems to me that experts, consumers, retailers and even legitimate parts of the vaping industry should have the opportunity to have their views heard on these clauses before the Government move forward with the legislation.

The first of the overriding concerns that have been articulated is that the Government should not accidentally make it harder for adult smokers to switch to vapes and other safer nicotine products. The Government’s own risk assessment mentions that as a risk, so I would welcome the Minister’s comments on that.

Secondly, we have to be a little bit careful about imposing burdensome restrictions on compliant small businesses, particularly convenience stores. It is my understanding that, for some convenience stores, up to a quarter of their sales come from tobacco and vapes.

On the top lines on part 6, it seems to me that the advertising and promotion of vapes and other nicotine products, including nicotine patches, could very well be an effective means of reaching adult smokers and helping them to switch. What assessment has the Minister made regarding the effect on switching rates that this advertising ban may have?

ASH reported that half of smokers incorrectly believed that vaping was more harmful than, or equally harmful to, smoking, and that trend is one that has increased. Is the Minister not concerned that, by banning the advertisement of these products, the Government could be at risk of inadvertently exacerbating that problem and undermining its own public health messaging that

“Nicotine vaping is substantially less harmful than smoking”?

To my mind, if we are to continue to encourage smokers to switch, it is crucial that they are aware of the relative risks of vapes and nicotine patches compared with cigarettes. I know that the Minister has made the point that no level of use is safe, but we are talking about the relative risks here. To my mind, there should be provision in this legislation to allow for the promotion of information on the relative harms of vapes and nicotine patches compared with cigarettes. I think that is part of the nub of what my hon. Friend the shadow Minister is getting at.

[Dr Caroline Johnson]

My hon. Friend is making some good points about the importance of ensuring that people can access nicotine replacement therapy in its various forms if they wish to stop smoking, because that will be healthier for them. I understand what the hon. Member for Winchester has said about prescription-only medicines, and that it is illegal to advertise prescription-only medicines to the public, but not all nicotine replacement therapies are prescription-only medicines, so those can be advertised to the public at the moment.

[Jack Rankin]

I thank my hon. Friend for her comment. I was struck in the written evidence—we have been overwhelmed with written submissions; I am not sure whether we were expected to read them all—by a comment by a Professor Peter Hajek when he was speaking to the Health and Social Care Select Committee. He said:

“In Tokyo there were huge, big posters showing the risk of smoking and, at one tenth of it, in a histogram, was the risk of IQOS”—

I would translate “IQOS” as heated tobacco. He then said:

“Within about five years—it has never happened before and is a fantastic achievement for public health without any involvement of Government—sales of cigarettes in Japan dropped by 50%.”

As I understand it from his description of that histogram, it was an advert by a private heated tobacco company, showing the relative sizes of the risks of cigarettes and of heated tobacco. That is something that this advertisement ban might prohibit, but that might help the Government in their aims to move to a smoke-free generation.

[Dr Johnson]

I am afraid I might need to break the happy agreement on the Conservative side. While I understand my hon. Friend’s laudable aim of encouraging those who smoke to use a less harmful product, which is a good thing, the clear evidence we have seen is that tobacco, in all its forms, is essentially harmful. Moving people from smoking tobacco in cigarettes to using heated tobacco may or may not reduce the harm, but it would still be significantly harmful. It would be better if an individual saw their pharmacist or clinician to get proper nicotine therapy, which is designated by the MHRA as a properly medically regulated product, rather than moving on to a different commercial product that is still harmful for them.

[Jack Rankin]

My hon. Friend makes her point well, and she is right that there is a slight disagreement between us. The Government should be wary—

[Dr Johnson]

rose—

[Jack Rankin]

I am going to make some progress. Even judging by the Government’s own standards, we should be treating vaped tobacco and heated tobacco very differently from cigarettes. We should be a little careful about the unintended consequences of this measure, and I hope the Minister can say how he might consult other bodies to look at those unintended consequences.

I have a small concern with the internet services measure in clause 119. Again, it seems that the Government’s aims in this legislation is to prevent targeted communication on vapes and nicotine products to adult smokers, such as via emails or digital channels, which can reach them directly. I understand the point about not wanting to aim such communication at children, but targeted communication, such as using people’s internet search history, could be an effective means of encouraging smokers to quit. I mentioned a few weeks ago the work that NHS Essex is doing with a vaping company, targeted at adult smokers. I do not think the Government, in achieving their aims of a smoke-free generation, should be too prescriptive on this.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am grateful to hon. Members for our discussion on amendment 87 and subsequent clauses. These amendments intend to make an exemption under the advertisement ban to allow vaping products to be promoted by businesses as a smoking cessation tool for existing tobacco smokers. I am sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s intention behind the amendment to ensure that smokers are encouraged to use vapes as a quit aid. That is why the Bill as drafted will continue to support the promotion of vaping as a quit aid for smokers through the appropriate channels. By “appropriate channels”, I say to the hon. Lady that we mean public health authorities.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Ninth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Jack Rankin

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend makes a very interesting point about how the snuff is given out. At the moment, the snuffbox sits with the Doorkeepers near the No Lobby entrance, and it is available to Members. Obviously—or perhaps not obviously—there is no charge to Members. In fact, my understanding from the Doorkeeper who had the snuffbox last week is that the stuff that they have currently was provided by the BBC—[Interruption.] I can see that is a surprise; it was a surprise to me too, but that is where I was told it came from.

It brings into question the earlier clauses that relate to sale, because clearly the Crown may purchase it—I suppose the BBC is funded by taxpayers—and it is in a royal palace, which is a Crown site rather than a retail site, and it is not being sold to Members. I wonder whether the Minister has had time to consider that.

[Jack Rankin (Windsor) (Con)]

May I put a question? Perhaps the shadow Minister knows, but who is paying for the snuff ordinarily? Is it the Doorkeepers, out of their own pockets, or is there some kind of taxpayer kitty? I do not think the latter really should apply.

[Dr Johnson]

That is a really interesting question. My understanding, as I said, is that the most recent supply was provided by the BBC—I do not know how recently, by the way. I agree that the taxpayer should not be funding the supply of snuff for Members. To me, that is an undesirable thing to do, but clearly it would not be appropriate for the cost to come out of the Doorkeepers’ pockets. Perhaps there is a Members’ fund of some sort for Members who like to participate in such a habit and would wish to ensure that the supply is provided.

I am also not sure about quite how expensive this stuff is. Having never bought it or used it, I have literally no concept of whether this is an expensive item to buy a box of. However, my understanding, from the Doorkeepers, is that not terribly much of it is used, so it stays there for quite a long time. There are a few Members who use it regularly, and, like I said, many Members who use it just the once, almost to check that it is still there. As much as anything else, it is a tradition of the House and I would be interested to know whether that tradition will be able to continue under these clauses.

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[Jack Rankin]

Government Members will be delighted to know that I do not have quite as much content as my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon. However, I will make two points, and I seek some clarification on the second point.

As a new legislator and a non-lawyer—I know that there is an overwhelming majority of new Members in the room—my question is around the Crown. To me, the Crown seems quite a nebulous concept. We often take it to mean the state, but the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, talked about clause 47 relating to the Crown very much in the context of this place. I do not think this is a new message to any politician, new or old, but our constituents seem to believe that different rules apply to us, in public life, than apply to them.

[Dr Johnson]

Further to what I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon, my understanding is that in 1997, Bernie Ecclestone, the Formula 1 chief at the time, donated £1 million to the Labour party. The donation became public knowledge in November that year, after the Labour Government had announced that Formula 1 would be exempt from the ban on tobacco advertising, which had been a key plank of the Labour party’s election manifesto. That exemplifies the importance of ensuring that donations do not affect policy and that we are all treated equally under the law.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Jack Rankin

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Gregory Stafford]

Absolutely, and we heard that clearly in the evidence sessions before we began examining the Bill in detail. However, as Members on both sides have mentioned, the tobacco and vaping industries are extraordinarily innovative in getting around regulations; that is really what I was referring to. That brings me to my next point. The effective implementation of clause 90 will require strict monitoring and enforcement, so local authorities, through their teams, must be equipped with sufficient resource to ensure compliance and tackle any attempts to circumvent the regulations.

My final point is about what I call the potential stigmatisation of vapers. We clearly do not want anyone to start vaping, but those who are already vaping or those who may be trying to use vapes as a smoking cessation tool must be taken into account. Although discouraging nicotine use is a priority, the Minister must avoid unintended consequences, such as stigmatising vapers using e-cigarettes as a smoking cessation tool. The regulatory framework should differentiate between the combustible tobacco products and reduced-risk alternatives where appropriate.

To ensure that clause 90 achieves its intended objectives while addressing the concerns that I have raised, I ask the Minister the following questions. Will he consider differentiated regulations for vaping products, ensuring that the public health messaging does not inadvertently deter smokers from switching to the less harmful alternatives? We need clear guidelines for implementation, so comprehensive guidance should be issued to businesses, law enforcement and regulatory agencies to ensure smooth implementation. There needs to be a public awareness campaign that complements that to educate consumers about the changes of packaging and reinforce the risks of tobacco and nicotine addiction, and we must have certain timelines for producers so that they understand what the new requirements are and how they will be implemented.

We need to ensure that the Government conduct regular evaluation of the effectiveness of clause 90 using data-driven analysis to assess its impact on the smoking and vaping rates, and we need strong law enforcement and border control agencies to prevent the illicit trade and ensure compliance with the regulations. Perhaps this does not need to be said, but the Minister should engage with public health experts and harm reduction advocates to refine the regulations and address any emerging concerns as they come in the future.

[Jack Rankin (Windsor) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. It seems to me, both from the text of the clause and from his introductory remarks, that the Minister aims to do two things. He aims to bring regulations on packaging to apply more widely to vaping and nicotine products, and to consolidate the law so that tobacco and nicotine products are all dealt with in one place.

My hon. Friend the shadow Minister asked the Minister to commit, with these powers, not to undermine the regulation on cigarettes thus far. Unlike the shadow Minister, I have no concern that the Minister might water down any such remarks. I trust the Labour manifesto in that regard.

[Dr Johnson]

This may be the first aspect of the Labour manifesto that we can trust, so perhaps there is something to celebrate.

[Jack Rankin]

Indeed. In fairness, I also share both the Minister’s and the shadow Minister’s concern. It is very clear that the incremental changes to tobacco retail packaging are one of the public health interventions that have diminished cigarette use, which is desirable.

However, I also ask the Minister to make assurances that, despite the consolidation of the law, he will treat vaping and nicotine products in quite a different way. I echo some of the thoughts that my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon expressed. It seems to me that, certainly when it comes to vaping, we should have proportionate and targeted regulation of vaping and nicotine products. In particular, we should be cracking down on anything that is particularly or unduly appealing to those who are under age, whether that is toys, cartoons or sweet-type imagery. That view would be shared right across the House. In the Minister’s introductory remarks, he called vaping an effective quit aid. Yes, we do not recommend it to children, but we do want to maintain that.

My concern about these quite sweeping regulations is this. I take the Minister’s point that delegated legislation will have to come forward in the future and will buff out how exactly the Minister plans to take this matter forward, but to me, moving towards, for example, plain packaging is likely to undermine the effectiveness of vaping as a cessation tool, which would undermine the objective that the Bill is trying to arrive at: in my understanding, a smoke-free generation by 2030. I ask the Minister to give us some assurances that he will treat vaping and nicotine products in quite a different way from tobacco products. After all, vaping is the fastest growing—I think this is uncontentious—smoking cessation method, and I think that here there is scope for quite wide-ranging powers.

I also urge the Minister to accept this point. I do not know how he considers this, but in my view there are responsible vape businesses and I think he should work with them to understand how they think they could change things so that people are directly using vaping as a smoking cessation tool and it is not appealing to people who would be new smokers. It is my understanding, from some of my research ahead of coming on to this Committee, that a Cochrane review said that vaping is twice as effective as any other stop-smoking tool. I do not think the Minister should be seeking to under- mine that.

I know that we do not get on to the issue of flavours until clause 92, so I will keep my comments brief on this, but it does seem to me to be legitimate to advertise flavours, perhaps in a delimited way. The shadow Minister talked about candy floss flavours, which should not be allowed, but it seems to me that people could legitimately advertise to adults various factual flavours that show vaping as something we can progress on smoking cessation with.

I would also oppose the cancer-type warnings that we see on cigarette packs in relation to vaping. I do not believe the evidence is quite there yet. The research on vaping is in its infancy, so it is too early to say whether that is appropriate.

[Dr Johnson]

I understand that my hon. Friend does not believe that there is evidence at the moment on particular health disbenefits of vaping, but would he agree to be guided by the chief medical officer and other experts in this field when making that decision? At one time, medical professionals did not think smoking was bad. Things change and evidence comes out over time.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Jack Rankin

Committee stage
Thursday 16th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Rankin (Windsor) (Con)]

I made my substantive points in the previous sitting, so I just want to summarise my position and conclude. Clauses 15, 62 and 80 concern the free distribution and discount of products. I support the Government wholeheartedly on tobacco products, but I tried to make the point that I believed there was a legitimate and responsible avenue for vaping and nicotine products to offer such discounts, particularly in the example that I gave, where a responsible vaping company was in partnership with the NHS to help to achieve the aim of the Bill of a smoke-free generation. I cannot support clauses 15, 62 and 80 in their current form and intend to vote against their standing part of the Bill.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Clause 15 makes it an offence to give away or discount any vape product. That is important because discounts encourage us to buy more things. That is what they are there for; it is what promotions are for. They encourage us to buy things that we did not want or need. We do not want people to consume excessive quantities of vapes that they do not want to have, but that does happen. A cursory glance on the internet shows that numerous websites are advertising vape discount codes and vouchers offering 10% or 15% discounts on vapes, as well as giftcards that are readily available for online purchase. The clause therefore replaces section 9 of the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002 and extends its scope, as there are currently no restrictions on businesses freely distributing nicotine and non-nicotine vaping products, cigarette papers and herbal smoking products.

In 2023 the former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak), created an illicit vapes enforcement squad, backed by £3 million. It was designed to close the legal loophole that allowed the vaping industry to provide free samples of vapes to be distributed regardless of consumer age. That was patently unacceptable, and I welcome the action that the previous Government took on the issue. I point out that giving away vapes was pretty common. In fact, my own parliamentary staffer went to a promotional event on vaping held in Parliament itself, in this very House, and was given free samples of Vuse vapes. I have been made aware by staffers that similar events take place outside Parliament, so I think that this is a useful clause and I will support it.

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[Dr Johnson]

Given that is what the Act does, it will be important for the Minister to consider the timing of the repeal. There are comprehensive powers under those provisions, and it will be important to ensure that Welsh Ministers are given ample opportunity and time to put in place new provisions to replace them, before the measures in this Bill come into force.

Could the Minister explain when the changeover date is, and whether he has spoken to Welsh Ministers to ensure that there is adequate time for those provisions to be put in place? He might also respond to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon about whether there is any restriction on replacing any aspects of the current Welsh legislation with the new legislation that we are discussing.

Clause 85 prohibits retail sales of tobacco products without a licence in Northern Ireland. To apply the measures that we have previously discussed to Northern Ireland, it inserts new measures after section 4 of the Tobacco Retailers Act (Northern Ireland) 2014 that will prohibit the sale of tobacco and nicotine-related products without a licence. That brings Northern Ireland legislation in line with the proposed UK legislation that we have just been discussing.

Proposed new section 4A of the 2014 Act introduces a clear prohibition on the retail sale of tobacco and nicotine-related products without appropriate licences. Under this section, individuals are not permitted to engage in the sale, exposure for sale or possession of relevant products unless they hold a personal licence. That licence is required for anyone involved in retail activities such as selling, displaying or possessing tobacco, vaping products, herbal smoking products or nicotine products. The personal licence must be granted by the licensing authority and the individual must comply with the conditions outlined in the licence.

The use of premises for activities such as storing relevant products, exposing them for sale or supplying them to customers is prohibited unless a premises licence is obtained. That ensures that the location used for the sale of these products is also licensed and adheres to the prescribed standards. The premises licence is granted by the licensing authority and outlines the specific conditions under which the premises can operate.

There is provision for regulations to create exceptions to those prohibitions in certain circumstances. The Department responsible for legislation is required to consult relevant stakeholders before making regulations relating to the granting of personal premises licences, which is of course sensible. Those regulations would ensure that the licensing system remains flexible and adaptable to the needs of businesses and public health objectives.

Proposed new section 4B of the 2014 Act establishes the penalties for breaching the new licensing requirements. If a business or individual operates without the necessary personal or premises licence, they commit an offence under that section. In line with England and Wales, providing false and misleading information in an application for a licence is also an offence. If someone knowingly submits incorrect information, they can face legal consequences, with a fine on summary conviction of up to level 5 on the standard scale. The section aims to ensure the integrity of the licensing process by holding individuals and businesses accountable for providing truthful information.

The court has the power to order the forfeiture and destruction of relevant products involved in an offence and of any containers used to store them. That gives the court authority to remove illegal products from circulation and deal with them in a manner it deems appropriate, thereby enforcing compliance with the new regulations.

Proposed new section 4C of the 2014 Act allows local councils to impose financial penalties on individuals or businesses that breach conditions attached to the personal or premises licences. Those breaches must not constitute a criminal offence under proposed new section 4B, which provides for an offence for lying. If a breach occurs, the council can impose a penalty, with the amount of the fine not exceeding £2,500. That serves as an alternative to criminal prosecution for more minor violations, allowing for a more flexible approach to enforcement. The section also allows for adjustments to the penalty amount to reflect inflation, ensuring that fines remain relevant over time.

Schedule 2 to the 2014 Act provides further details on the implementation of those financial penalties and outlines how the penalties will be enforced and collected. That mechanism enables councils to take swift action against minor breaches without resorting to criminal prosecution. Schedule 11 on the retail licensing scheme in Northern Ireland specifies the procedures for granting personal licences, including who may apply and the conditions that must be met for approval.

Schedule 12 provides for the financial penalties for breach of retail licence conditions in Northern Ireland. It outlines the process for granting premises licences, with particular attention paid to ensuring that premises used for sale and storage of tobacco products meet the necessary standards for health, safety and law compliance. Any proceeds received from financial penalties in Northern Ireland must be used by the council for the purpose of its functions under the Tobacco Retailers Act (Northern Ireland) 2014 or for other functions that the Department of Health in Northern Ireland may specify by regulation. That is a little different from the rest of the United Kingdom.

Schedule 13 sets out consequential amendments to the existing legislation to support the introduction of a new licensing framework. I will not go through those in detail.

[Jack Rankin]

In my remarks to date, I have tried to support responsible vaping businesses, which I think are legitimate, and to champion vaping as a smoking cessation tool. These clauses are not in contradiction of that principle. We should support better efforts to regulate the vape market and in particular to stop youth access. Introducing the licensing concept for vapes is consistent with the Government’s intent and the principles that I wish to support.

I wish to make some suggestions as to how the licensing regime should best be set up, and I hope that the Minister will talk about his intent in advancing the regulations. The UK responsible vape sector has talked sensibly about licensing. We have the existing framework of the Licensing Act 2003, which covers the sale of alcohol; that is the kind of approach we should take to minimise excessive regulation and make it easy for people to comply. The licensing fee should be set at a rate that is at least cost-neutral to local authorities—I think everyone across the Committee realises how stretched those local authorities are—and it should cover both administrative and enforcement costs. I hope the Minister will comment on that point.

On the proximity of licensed premises to certain other locations, I encourage the Minister to try to mirror the alcohol regulations in order to provide a measure of consistency, so that legitimate premises with experience of selling age-related products can do so in the least bureaucratically complicated way. I invite the Minister to consider those points.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Jack Rankin

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman is bringing back painful memories of trying to create things with pipe cleaners for my children, and trying to make them stand up straight when they simply are not quite that stiff—but some fun memories, too. Yes, I do see that they are used in art. That suggests another question. The Minister can correct me if I am wrong, but I presume that the Government have chosen to ban cigarette papers because they want to reduce the amount of people smoking illegal tobacco; it is also an opportunity to reduce the amount of availability of papers for smoking cannabis and other illegal products, but why have they not included filters?

For many years, the tobacco industry has implied that smoking through a filter is safer and many in the population believe that smoking through a filter is safer, but it is a single-use plastic—and I am sure the Minister is very worried about the environment and the use of single-use plastics. The previous Government banned quite a lot of single-use plastic items to reduce waste. The cigarette filter is the most littered item globally every year and it is a single-use plastic. It contains a cellulose acetate filter, which I am told is a plastic pollution. It also increases the risk of a particular form of lung cancer, because the tiny little itty bits of plastic are inhaled into the individual who is smoking. They also increase the way that people draw on a cigarette, which means they could take in more of the toxins when there is a filter than when there is not. Will the Minister discuss whether he plans to include filters on Report?

Let us look at international examples. In 2011, the United States said that all cigarette papers should have Food and Drug Administration approval for their ingredients. Is the Minister considering publishing the ingredients on the packet here in the UK, so that if they are to continue to be sold, people are aware of the toxins they contain? Further, where these products are being used for modelling or art purposes, perhaps such steps will start to reduce the number of toxins contained in them.

As part of clause 2 we are also going to discuss clause 69 stand part. Clause 69 substitutes for article 4A of the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978. That is, essentially, identical to clause 2, except for the fact that subsection (4) states someone guilty of an offence under the article is liable to a fine “not exceeding level 5”, whereas clause 2 says “not exceedingly level 4.” As the Minister is looking for consistency across the four countries of the United Kingdom, could he explain why he has chosen to have a lower level of fine for the proxy sales offence here than he has in Northern Ireland?

It should be noted that, although we have already discussed clause 50, that part of the Bill provides for legislation for proxy sales in Scotland, where the fine threshold is also set at level 5. I understand that the Minister is a fan of devolution, and wants devolved nations to be able to have different fines, so why has he chosen the fine level for this particular part of the country to be at level 4, which is lower than in Scotland and Northern Ireland? Additionally, section 5 of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 says that it is illegal to buy, or attempt to buy, for oneself if under 18. Is it the Minister’s intention to amend that? That is my final question on clause 2.

[Jack Rankin]

I do not intend to go over the scope of the clause in great detail, because I think the principles largely flow form the principles of clause 1, but I will pick up on the cigarette paper point that my hon. Friend, the shadow Minister made, and talk about clause 2(3):

“It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section in respect of cigarette papers to prove that they had no reason to suspect that the other person intended to use the papers for smoking.”

I commend the shadow Minister’s researchers, because I can feel her thoroughness—I know a lot more about cigarette papers than I did an hour ago, and much more about cigarette papers than I thought there could possibly be to know, so she has answered some of my question.

[Dr Johnson]

I am pleased that my hon. Friend has found today interesting. Does he also find it interesting that some of these papers that can currently be bought legally from major retailers in the United Kingdom are not just coloured and have designs on, but flavoured? That is clearly not necessary for someone using them for a model or artwork. They may make people smoke more, because they disguise the taste of the tobacco and make smoking more pleasant.

[Jack Rankin]

I believe that is the case, and it is something I did not know before today. My questions were along the lines of: is this not just paper, and, if so, why is it excluded in some sense? I was racking my brain for legitimate reasons, and, in her speech, the shadow Minister gave some legitimate reasons, whether that is the woodwind instruments, or the model making mentioned by the Member for Chatham and Aylesford. It seems to me that—even though I disagree with the principle of the Bill—those extra properties would not be necessary for those legitimate uses in this instance.

As my hon. Friend the shadow Minister said, the market should be able to make a difference. Clause 2(3) should be struck from the Bill, because it does not seem that there is a legitimate use for cigarette papers that would not be picked up in another way, shape or form if that subsection were removed. I understand from the guidance I received as a new Member on my first day here that I have to three days to table an amendment before discussion, but I would suggest the removal of subsection (3). Perhaps the Government will consider whether the provision should remain fully in the next iteration of the clause later in this process.

I also want to speak to the term “no reason to suspect”, because I am not clear where the burden of proof sits. If someone goes into a newsagent to order cigarette papers, the overwhelming likelihood is that they will use them to smoke cigarettes. I accept that other reasons exist, but is the shopkeeper supposed to ask? The Bill says “no reason to suspect”; I would expect shopkeepers to have every reason to suspect that people who buy cigarette papers smoke cigarettes. It seems a little woolly. What would the Minister expect the shopkeeper to do in those instances? Is he supposed to ask? If the person says, “I am using this for a woodwind instrument,” is that sufficient? If I were a person who wished to get around the law, I could pretty easily work out that that would get me around the clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

As the Minister says, clause 4 makes it against the law to sell cigarettes that are not in their original packaging, so that individual or small amounts of cigarettes cannot be sold separately. That is in part because cigarette packets now have standardised formats, warnings and information designed to alert the smoker to the health problems caused by the smoking habit, and selling cigarettes outside the packets means the smoker avoids that information.

I asked the Minister earlier about proposals for warning notices about smoking on the cigarette paper itself, but I did not hear his thoughts. The notices might ensure that, were individual sales to happen despite the law, the warning would still be received by the child or smoker, but there is also the risk of adding additional chemicals to the paper. Where does he think the benefit or balance of risk lies in that respect?

Everywhere else the Bill makes it an offence for a “person” to do something, so why does the clause mention a “tobacco retailer” rather than a “person”? If the Minister does not wish cigarettes to be sold individually, why would it be more of an offence for a proper tobacco retailer to sell them individually than it would be for an individual who is not a tobacco retailer? Why the change in wording? I do not understand. If someone is not a tobacco retailer, it would clearly be illegal, because they would have no licence. Why not have this additional offence for the most reckless people, so that they can be dealt with more severely?

As the Minister says, the minimum pack size of 20 was brought forward in 2017, because it was felt that packs of 10 were closer to the level of pocket money and were encouraging the uptake of cigarettes by children. When we come to vaping, we will discuss the pocket money nature of some of these products.

[Jack Rankin]

Certainly in my experience, the only reason people sell unpackaged cigarettes is to make them cheaper for schoolchildren, so I find it strange that subsection (2) states that the fine is level 3 on the standard scale. If I understand what my hon. Friend said in the last sitting about the standard scale, level 3 is lower than the level 4 fine for sale. A sale could have been in error, but unpackaging cigarettes to sell to schoolchildren seems deliberately malicious, so I am surprised that it is not treated more severely. Perhaps my hon. Friend can comment on that.

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend is right that the offence of selling a product to a person born on or after 1 January 2009 is something someone could do unintentionally. They could genuinely believe the ID in front of them, or that the person looked so significantly older that it was not even necessary to ask them for ID, whereas selling cigarettes outside the packaging requires the deliberate act of removing them from the packet and selling them individually, in a way that is not normally done. I think my hon. Friend is right, and it is perhaps surprising to have a deliberate act at a lower fine level than a potentially unintentional one.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Clauses 5, 6, 55 and 72 make provision for age of sale notices. Clause 5(1) makes it clear on which premises the notices must be displayed. In some respects, that is obvious, but the fact that the Bill makes clear that the notices must be on the same premises where the tobacco is being sold is perhaps a sign that the Minister has the measure of the tobacco industry: if that was not clearly stipulated, there would be temptation to display the notices in head office or somewhere else where no one could see them. The fact that it is thought necessary to state what is blindingly obvious—that the notice must be displayed in the right place—is somewhat sad.

Subsection (3) deals with positioning. The statement that the notice must be prominent and readily visible at each point of sale is relevant to shops that have more than one till at the counter. One sometimes goes to the counter of a large supermarket, or similar, and sees a whole row of tills. It is therefore important that the signs are visible from all the tills, not just the one closest to the tobacco.

What the notice must say is provided for in subsection (2):

“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009”.

That is clear, simple and informative, which is good. However, it does not mention cigarette papers or herbal smoking products. Why has the Minister chosen not to include the other items included in the rolling age of sale and the Government’s smoke-free generation on the notice for clarity? That is important because we heard in evidence, and have all read in the news, of examples where people who work in our retail sector have been treated in an abusive—sometimes violent—fashion or people have been very rude to them.

If the purpose of the notice is to be clear on what the law is, providing clarity that it also includes herbal smoking products and cigarette papers would enable the public to be aware of the law and the retailer to point to the sign and say, “I can’t do this—look.” The message as currently drafted does not do that, and that could cause shopkeepers or shop assistants more difficulty. I notice that under subsection (4), any aspect of the notices, including the appearance and wording, can be amended, so that could be done at a later date if the Minister feels that the shopkeepers’ evidence is that herbal smoking products and cigarette papers are proving a challenge. Why has he chosen not to do that at the outset?

Subsection (7) talks about a defence of having taken reasonable steps. I have two questions on that. First, is “It fell down and I hadn’t noticed, your honour” an adequate defence? How does the Minister envisage the reasonable steps defence? What are the reasonable steps? If the Government choose under subsection (4) to change the appearance or wording—perhaps if they discover it is inadequate in some way—what steps will need to be taken to ensure that all retailers are aware of those changes, and within what timeframe will retailers be expected to react to those changes?

The impact assessment says that the cost of putting up a new sign is not prohibitively expensive for an individual business—it is about £4 per retailer—but it means that there is an overall cost to small and micro-retailers of around £124,000 in England, and £143,000 in the UK. That is a cost to business overall, even if a small one to individual businesses. The impact assessment also notes the cost of staff training and awareness. There are an estimated 42,582 convenience stores in England, each with a store manager who would have to disseminate that information to the estimated 299,957 members of staff. Of those stores, 71% would be considered small or microbusinesses.

The cost of amending those things means that the Opposition invite the Minister to get the notice right the first time so costs are not incurred twice. There is an estimated cost of around £2 million in total on training. Although the cost to any one small or microbusiness is likely to be small—around £70 on average—that cost combined with £4 for a sign, at a time when small businesses are being squeezed by other budgetary measures the Government have brought in, is another potential straw to break the camel’s back.

The fine is at a level 3, and the person who carries on a business involving the sale of tobacco products by retail is the person who is liable. But what does it mean to be

“a person who carries on a business involving the sale of tobacco products by retail”.

Is it the director of the business? Is it the store manager who is on duty that day? Is it the overall store manager, or is it the licence holder?

[Jack Rankin]

My hon. Friend has previously sought to amend the Bill in various places to add the qualifier “save for the first offence”. It seems to me that, particularly in the first instance, this could be a genuine oversight and that it would be appropriate for a council officer or someone from trading standards to simply bring it to the attention of store management and ask them to rectify it over a period of time. Does she think this clause should be tweaked in such a way, on the same principle on which that she has sought to amend other clauses?

[Dr Johnson]

I am going to disagree with my hon. Friend on that point. There will be licensing for tobacco products, and part of the due diligence of setting up to sell such products includes familiarising oneself with the legislation as it stands and thus with the regulations around signage, buying and putting up the appropriate signs, and providing the appropriate training. The challenge occurs if the Government seek to amend the notice, at which point they would need to ensure that they had given adequate notice and information to the company to ensure that it had the time, resources and information to put up the correct signs.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Jack Rankin

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Rankin (Windsor) (Con)]

At first sight, the clause can appear to follow on naturally from the rest of the Bill, and in some sense it does, but I think it is important. We heard from shopkeepers in the evidence session last week, from the British Retail Consortium, and in the representations to us made in writing that it can be difficult for younger shopkeepers to hold the line on this, and they might be at the wrong end of unacceptable verbal abuse. In my view, the Bill will increase that risk.

With younger people often manning retail stands, in the future we might have 18 or 19-year-olds having to refuse to sell tobacco products to people a decade or so older than them. That will be increasingly challenging, even compared with the existing situation. I have spoken about being opposed to the principle of the Bill and finding it somewhat unworkable, but putting that to one side, I think that if we are to proceed with it, we have a particular obligation to make things as easy as possible for shopkeepers. I am sure that everyone agrees.

The language used, or proposed to be used, in the age of sale notice in subsection (2) is quite legalistic, being presented as:

“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009”.

That is a statement of fact. It mirrors what we see today, but it is very legal. I think it would benefit from being a bit more practical. For example—I think my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham made this point—it is illegal to sell herbal smoking products, cigarette papers and not just cigarettes, but cigars. We might help our shopkeepers if we made the list a bit more practical, so that the shopkeeper could turn around to say, “Sorry, guvnor, but this is the law,” whereas with the Bill saying “tobacco products”, the verbal altercation might include, “These are not cigarettes, though.” Perhaps we should move away from legalistic language to help staff, especially younger members of staff. That is particularly necessary, given what seems to be a general coarsening in our society, I am afraid to say.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

The regulations will need to be enforced not just in a large supermarket, where the shop assistant has the benefit of a security guard and other—

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

I am sorry, Sir Mark. The regulations will need to be enforced whether one is a shop assistant in a small shop or in a large shop. In a large shop that sells tobacco, such as a large supermarket, one might have the benefit of a security guard, additional staff and many more people around. Alternatively, a 19-year-old might be trying to enforce the regulations on a Saturday evening in a rural shop many miles from the local police station, with no security guard or anyone else around.

[Jack Rankin]

That is exactly the kind of situation I am thinking of. The language could be a bit more practical, less legal and it might aid that shopkeeper to point to an external source for validation.

I have two further points. One is a point of ignorance for me as a new Member, for which I apologise. I do not know what subsection (5) means when it says that

“Regulations under subsection (4) are subject to the negative resolution procedure.”

I hope someone can help me with that. Clause 6 is being taken together with clause 5, because clause 5 applies to England and clause 6 applies to Wales. To me, they appear to be exactly the same, apart from the age of sale notice described in clause 6(2) and the fact that clause 6 obviously also includes the Welsh version. I am going to take at face value that it says the same thing in Welsh, although I do not speak Welsh. It would be nice to clarify whether it is either/or whether it is both together. That is of interest.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

This group of clauses and amendments all apply to snus, which we are trying to ban, so the first question is: what is snus? Snus is a tobacco product predominantly used in Sweden and, to an extent, in the USA. When the Health and Social Care Committee, which I was a member of in the last Parliament, visited Sweden at around the time the previous Tobacco and Vapes Bill was introduced, we saw shops with massive displays of different types, brands and flavours of snus, which came in small round pots similar to those that we see nicotine pouches in; they were mostly kept in the refrigerator.

Snus is produced using tobacco leaves, salt and alkalis such as sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate. The alkali is there to help the nicotine to be absorbed more easily into the mouth and therefore into the bloodstream of the person using the product. Producers also potentially add a flavouring. As we have seen in cigarette papers, flavourings are used to improve the palatability of tobacco products. The mixture of tobacco leaf, salt, alkalis and flavouring is ground up, steam-pasteurised to inhibit the growth of bacteria, and then supplied loose or in small pouches.

The loose form is a moist, powdery product, which I understand is rolled between one’s fingers to create a sort of cylinder shape known as a pinch. It is placed under the upper lip, where it is held for about 30 minutes while the nicotine is absorbed into the bloodstream. Its moist nature helps to facilitate the absorption of nicotine and makes the nicotine hit faster; it is absorbed more quickly than it would otherwise be.

The second way that snus can be supplied is in a small pouch resembling a very little teabag, which comes in two formats: original and white. The original version is a sachet of material that is kept moist and is brown in colour. Again, the moistness allows a quick release, but the tobacco product does not need rolling and pinching; it just needs putting into one’s mouth, and it stays in its little pouch. The white version is not in all cases white, but the genre is known as white snus. It has a milder taste and a slower release because the powder in the pouch is dry. The dryness means that one needs to get it moist in the mouth before it will dissolve across the membrane and give the nicotine hit, which means that the dry snus is a slower-release product than the original. The American snus is a lower moisture product, again provided in a variety of flavours to suit the customer.

Why did I and others not know what snus was? I am sure you are familiar with it, Sir Mark. This specific form of tobacco product has been banned in the UK for some time. It was banned by the Tobacco for Oral Use (Safety) Regulations 1992—I was still at school—and then EU tobacco products directive 2014/40 created a European-wide ban, which was incorporated into UK law by the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. The Committee might be interested to know that Sweden has a derogation specifically for snus under that EU regulation, so snus is still sold there, as I described.

Advocates of snus believe it is less harmful and causes less respiratory disease and less cancer than does an inhaled form of tobacco. They try to market it as an alternative to smoking that is less harmful. However, the evidence shows a risk of cancer, particularly of the cheek and gums. Perhaps that is not surprising, given where it is placed to be used. Oral squamous cell carcinoma, a form of cancer of the mouth, often occurs in the site at which snus is commonly placed. It has also been shown that snus causes increased blood pressure, particularly in females, and despite not being inhaled it can contribute to an increased rate of asthma.

Aside from all that, snus contains nicotine, which we know is addictive. Regardless of the form in which it is taken, it creates the addiction and cravings that rob people of the choice not to use the product, which the Minister spoke about so powerfully last week. It is important that we consider this carefully, because otherwise people will become addicted to snus as another form of nicotine.

[Jack Rankin]

The shadow Minister is a doctor, so she is learned in this area, and she makes the case that snus is harmful in the same way as tobacco. What does she know of the relative harm? I am concerned that, in taking quite a studs-up and puritanical approach, we are taking away things that might not be as bad as cigarettes that could allow people to effectively tier down. Does she have any thoughts on that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

I thank the Minister for clarifying that so comprehensively.

Clause 8 deals with the sale of snus. Clause 7 having made it an offence to manufacture snus, clause 8 bans the sale of snus, which it defines, in the same way as described by the Minister, as a “relevant oral tobacco product”. In wording that is slightly different from that in other clauses, clause 8 also describes the offence as not only to sell, but to

“offer or expose…for sale”.

I had to look up what that meant. To help the Committee, apparently, to offer or expose something for sale means to expose it to attract an offer of purchase from the public. Something is put in the shop window—in the same way as the bongs the Minister described in a shop window the other day—to be visible to a customer and the customer may then choose to make an offer for the purchase of the product, and the product is thereby exposed for sale. In essence, this provision will make putting these products in a shop window an offence.

I am interested to understand why the wording in clause 8 is different from that for all the other tobacco and nicotine products in the Bill, where that wording is not used. If the Minister could explain that, I will be grateful. Again, the defence offered by clause 8 is “all reasonable steps”, but I am not sure what such steps would be, so I will be grateful for clarification on that, too, please.

The penalties for disobeying clause 8 are quite severe. The penalty on summary conviction is

“imprisonment for a term not exceeding the general limit”

in a magistrates court, which is six months, potentially rising to 12 months based on what the Lord Chancellor has said over the past few months, or a fine—of how much, the Bill does not state, so perhaps the Minister could help with that—or both. On conviction on indictment, the penalty is

“imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years, or a fine, or both.”

That means that we have a contradiction within the Bill. For virtually any other tobacco or nicotine products that may not be sold, but are sold by an offender, the offender is liable for a fine at level 3, 4 or 5, but clause 8—the sale of snus, as distinct from all other tobacco products—creates an offence that carries a penalty of significant imprisonment. I am not saying that that should not be the case, but I am interested to understand the rationale for the difference, because, notwithstanding any devolution differences, the decision on what to do in England and Wales is clearly for this Government and this Minister.

Clause 9 concerns possession with intent to supply in the course of business of a “relevant oral tobacco product”, as has been defined in clauses 7 and 8. I am interested in what is meant by “the course of business”. If one looks at section 4 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, where possession with intent to supply is most readily thought of, it is the intent to supply it to another person. However, does “the course of business” imply that money must change hands? If one had the intent to supply to another without being paid, would that not be in “the course of business” and therefore be legal? Also, does the word “business” itself imply a properly regulated business? It could not be a properly regulated business in so far as it would be an illegal sale. Does the Minister therefore make a distinction between the product being sold from a business premises as opposed to being bought down the pub from an acquaintance?

Amendments 60, 61 and 62 to clause 9 basically look once again at the principle of proportionality. If, for example, we were to prosecute someone for the sale of cigarettes to a 19-year-old born on 1 January 2009, and it was that person’s first offence, we would give them a fine—so why would we wish to consider imprisoning somebody at the first offence for selling snus? The crime would appear to be somewhat similar but the penalty is very different. I do not intend to push the amendments to a vote, although other hon. Members may wish to, but they are designed to provoke debate on the proportionality of different offences, and the inconsistency between the penalties for different offences that may appear to be very similar. Amendments 60 and 61 insert the phrase

“save if it is a first offence”

and amendment 62 says:

“A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence…is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a caution.”

I will be interested in the Minister’s comments.

[Jack Rankin]

I am sorry if this is my ignorance as a new legislator, but clauses 7, 8 and 9 applied to England and Wales. However, clauses 56, 57 and 58 apply the same measures to Scotland, and then we have the same for Northern Ireland. In previous clauses, we have also seen that replicated for Wales. Does that mean that clauses 7, 8 and 9 apply to both England and Wales, and how come that devolution is treated differently? Perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham knows the answer to that, or maybe the Minister could clarify.

[Dr Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his point. I believe that the Bill specifies somewhere which clauses apply under which jurisdictions, but I cannot remember exactly which page that is on. I am sure the Minister in his summing up will be able to identify where my hon. Friend can look to review that, but some of the clauses will apply to different jurisdictions. Some will apply to the whole of the United Kingdom and others will apply to England and Wales, or England alone, depending on various different factors. My hon. Friend will be able to look at the relevant part of the Bill to find that out. My understanding is that clauses 7, 8 and 9 will apply in England and Wales, and I would be grateful if the Minister clarified that point in his summing up.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor has identified, clauses 56, 57 and 58 apply to Scotland; they essentially replicate clauses 7, 8 and 9. Clause 56 prevents the manufacture of snus, clause 57 prevents the sale of snus and clause 58 prevents the possession with intent to supply of snus. Amendments 70, 71 and 72 to clause 58 replicate amendments 60, 61 and 62 and say that there should be proportionality in relation to penalties.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

We are talking specifically about under-18s. I disagree with some of the later regulations on vaping, but when it comes to under-18s being given vaping products, I am aligned with the Government. Does my hon. Friend agree that if companies are giving away free products to Members of Parliament and staffers who are over the age of 18—some of them may be smokers—they are actually supporting the Government’s aim of getting to a smoke-free generation, which is very different from what we see in clause 10? I agree with the Government’s aim.

[Dr Johnson]

I think my hon. Friend highlights something common across our party. Many members of our party are uncertain, as I understand my hon. Friend is, about the changes to tobacco legislation for adults with the competency to make risk-based decisions. I understand your points; I do not necessarily share them, but I understand them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Digital ID is not something that I am particularly familiar with, but nevertheless it sounds sensible, where ID is reliable, reproducible, not easily faked and easily identifiable by staff. Broadening the forms of acceptable ID would ensure that when somebody is old enough to legally purchase a product, it is not excessively challenging for them to obtain an ID to do so. Clearly the Minister would want people to be able to buy age-restricted products if they are old enough, so I am interested to hear his view not only on my hon. Friend’s intervention about digital identification, but on veterans cards, bus passes and other cards that demonstrate the age of the user and include a photograph for added reliability.

Clause 10(4) states:

“A person who commits an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.”

On a personal level, selling vapes and nicotine products to children is a dreadful thing to do, as I am sure the chief medical officer has said. I am more than happy for the Minister to increase that fine if he wants to, but I am interested to understand why he has set it at that level. Notwithstanding any changes across the four nations, it is important that we look at the choices that the Minister has made. That is what we are here to scrutinise.

The problem that clause 10 seeks to address is vaping among children. Are children vaping? Yes, I am afraid to say that they are, in large quantities. The biggest report of which I am aware that looked specifically at rates of youth vaping was published in 2023 by Healthwatch Blackpool. It looked at over 4,000 children and found that just under a third of them—31%—said that they

“currently vape or sometimes vape”.

Of those children, 65%

“expressed a preference for fruity flavoured vapes”,

which we will deal with later in the Bill. There is clearly an issue that vapes are being directly marketed to children with bright, attractive colours. Some of the most popular flavours include bubble gum, cotton candy, strawberry ice cream and unicorn milkshake. What does unicorn milkshake taste like? I have no idea, but it is easy to see the appeal to children.

An investigation by The Observer in 2022 found that ElfBar, a company that makes vapes, was promoting its products to kids via TikTok. The TikTok platform is apparently used by half of eight to 11-year-olds and by three quarters of 16 to 17-year-olds. When I found that out, I had a look at the screen time of my own children to establish that they were not getting on it.

[Jack Rankin]

I support my hon. Friend wholeheartedly on restricting flavours aimed at children, which I think is the Minister’s intention, but does she agree that vape flavours that are being advertised more generally, so long as they are straightforward and descriptive, can help people to shake smoking and can be firmly aimed at adults? The Government should not restrict the flavours so generally that the smoking cessation tool is weakened.

[Dr Johnson]

I am afraid that once again I have to disagree with my hon. Friend. I do not believe that those who advertise brightly coloured vapes shaped like highlighters or SpongeBob SquarePants, or flavoured as unicorn milkshake and green gummy bear, are advertising them for the consumption of adults. I do not doubt that there are some adult smokers in their 40s who enjoy the flavour of unicorn milkshake and green gummy bear—perhaps those flavours are nice—but I do not believe that adults are the target audience for that marketing at all.

[Jack Rankin]

Perhaps I explained myself ineloquently —or maybe my hon. Friend was being mischievous in her characterisation. I agree with her wholeheartedly, but I would say that raspberry is a perfectly legitimate flavour for an upstanding vape seller to sell to an adult smoker as a cessation device. I would not want to go too hard on that so that we do not cut off that legitimate smoking cessation route.

[Dr Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for clarifying his intervention but, again, I am not sure about that.

[The Chair]

Order. Flavours will come up later in the Bill. The question really is not pertinent to clause 10.

[Jack Rankin]

I will ask my hon. Friend about this point later.

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend can ask me later, when we come to the colours and flavours.

To summarise, clause 10 is an important clause that seeks to stop children getting hold of vapes and nicotine products and, in so doing, aims to reduce the number of children who get hooked on nicotine, which has very harmful effects, and who may even damage themselves using vapes. In one school in my constituency, eight children collapsed after using vaping products. Lincolnshire police examined five of the vapes confiscated from the school and found that they contained antifreeze, poster varnish and other chemicals such as trichloroethylene, 2-methoxyethyl acetate, Steol-M and diethylene glycol diacetate—some very harmful chemicals that have no legal place in vapes at all. Some of those chemicals are banned, but are nevertheless being put into these products.

Clause 59 is similar, but, given the principle of devolution, applies to Scotland. It provides for the same principle of an extension of offences to vaping and nicotine products, but does so in recognition of the fact that Scotland has different laws by amending the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010. It adds various substitutions to ensure that it is not possible to buy tobacco and vaping products in Scotland, in order to protect the children of Scotland.

Clause 76 provides continuity across the United Kingdom based on the principles of devolution in Northern Ireland and of working together to protect the interests of children. That is very important. The clause adds article 4H, on the sale of vaping and nicotine products, to the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 after article 4G, which is itself inserted by clause 75. This provision essentially inserts the same provisions as those in clause 10, except that once again we see a higher penalty in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is clearly more concerned with punishing those who sell vaping and nicotine products to children than the Minister appears to be.

Amendments 63, 64, 80 and 81 look specifically at the proportionality of penalties and the balance in choosing them—whether they be as punitive as those in Northern Ireland, or those in place for snus for people who are reckless and do it often as opposed to those who have committed a first offence and do not do it so often.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

I do not think that nicotine products are attractive to children in any way, shape or form today. My concern is that, as the Government are seeking to stop children using them by restricting them in vending machines—I do not think they should be using them—

[Dr Johnson]

May I clarify the point that my hon. Friend is making? When he says that he does not think nicotine products are attractive to children, does he mean the medical nicotine replacement therapy products, as opposed to other nicotine products such as nicotine pouches or vapes?

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

I do not think I can talk to that point, but I thank the hon. Gentleman for making it.

We have to find a balance. The Government can use their majority in the House to cast aside my hon. Friend’s amendment, but it seems to me that it is in line with the principle of the Bill, so it is a sensible thing to do.

[Dr Johnson]

I understand that my hon. Friend thinks that the amendment is sensible, but Dame Andrea Leadsom, the public health Minister in the previous Government, asked Mark Rowland, the chief executive of the Mental Health Foundation, the “chicken-and-egg question”, as she put it:

“Does smoking make you depressed, does depression cause you to smoke or is it both?”

He said:

“it is difficult to disaggregate exactly for many people, but we know that both are a real issue. We talk about this cycle of smoking increasing the risk of poor mental health and poor mental health increasing the chances of smoking and the number of cigarettes someone smokes. People with mental health problems smoke far more, and that addiction then exacerbates psychiatric symptoms. Those psychiatric symptoms also then lead to increased poverty and increased chances of being unemployed, and that leads to poorer mental health. It is a complex picture, but we are really starting to see the causal drivers of mental ill health.” ––[Official Report, Tobacco and Vapes Public Bill Committee, 1 May 2024; c. 116, Q179.]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one should not say that those in mental health hospitals need access to vapes or nicotine in the form of pouches from vending machines to ease their mental health? In actual fact, it may do quite the opposite.

[Jack Rankin]

I had not heard that remark, but I thank my hon. Friend for putting it on the record. To add to that theme, I would make the point that these things are multifaceted. The point that my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire, who is the successor to Dame Andrea, was making is that people have quite a lot to be getting on with, so they do not need this added stress.

[Dr Johnson]

Does my hon. Friend see it as an added stress or an added opportunity to add in-patient support to quit smoking to further benefit the individual’s mental and physical health?

[Jack Rankin]

Perhaps it is an added thing that doctors in mental healthcare can try to address, but my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire read out a letter from someone at the coalface, who takes the opposite approach from that of the shadow Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Thank you, Sir Roger. I am grateful for your guidance as Chair on the order of doing things. It has been, at times, quite confusing.

Clauses 13, 14, 61 and 79 regulate the display of products in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It does not take much to realise why that is necessary. Simply take a drive down a high street in any small town across the country, and one will come across a shop with an entire front window blocked out with pictures of sweets, other confectionery and chocolate, usually an energy drink or two thrown in, and a whole host of brightly-coloured vaping devices. The clear message is that these are fun and exciting products—not stop-smoking devices, but recreational products—and is clearly designed to entice children into purchasing them.

I had cause to go to a major service station on the A1-M25 junction, and as I came out of the bathroom I noticed that, at the eye level of about a six-year-old, there was a whole pile of coloured vapes in a shop front. Going into a major newsagent to purchase a newspaper, one will also find a whole load of pictures behind the counter. I have even seen electronic video displays advertising a vaping product in WHSmith—I think it was a Lost Mary—so one cannot get away from the advertising of those products even if one wishes to. It is clearly necessary for the display of those products within stores to be regulated to ensure that children are not enticed—the industry would say inadvertently, while others would suggest very deliberately—into wanting to buy them.

Clause 13 provides the Secretary of State with powers to regulate the display of tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products. It also regulates their prices. I wonder if the Minister could comment on what that means, and how the prices of all those products will come under some sort of Government control. Will the Government fix the prices and therefore the profit, or will they apply additional taxation to the product—something that they seem to like to do, although it would not necessarily be as unwelcome in this case as some of the other taxes they have applied recently—so that they create an overall price? How does the Minister intend this price fixing, as it were, to work?

Clause 13 also gives the capacity to regulate the display of empty retail packaging or anything else that represents the product, whether that be putting up a video display or large versions of the products at an entrance, so that the products can be kept away from children. Under the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002 and regulations made under it, there are already restrictions on the display in the course of business of tobacco products and pricing, but not specifically nicotine and vaping products. Given all we have heard about the addictive nature of nicotine, the enticement of children into taking such products, and the harm they may cause children particularly in adolescence, this is a welcome change.

Clause 13(6) confirms that before making regulations, the Secretary of State must consult who he or she considers it appropriate to consult. I am interested to understand whether the Minister believes that such a consultation should include the tobacco industry and/or the vaping and nicotine product industry, whether that be medical or otherwise, and whether he sees a distinction between the two.

Clause 13 creates an offence for failure to comply with the regulations, and anyone convicted of an offence under this clause on indictment can be subject to imprisonment of up to two years, or a fine, or both. If they are convicted of a slightly lesser offence on summary conviction, they can be subject to imprisonment for a term not exceeding a general limit in a magistrates court, or a fine, or both.

I refer the Minister to my previous remark that the general limit in a magistrates court is apparently going to double after the Lord Chancellor’s statement in October. As such, is the Minister content to have a fluctuating limit or would he prefer a fixed one? Perhaps that is something to consider before Report. Clearly, deliberately advertising vapes in a way that may be attractive to children requires a reasonably stiff penalty.

Under clause 13(1), the legislation explicitly allows for the regulation of physical displays of these products, including empty packaging and pricing information, which are often used to draw attention to them. Subsection (2) defines the “relevant products” pretty comprehensively, encompassing not just tobacco and vaping items but accessories such as cigarette papers and herbal smoking products. The broad definition ensures that the regulations cover a wide array of potentially harmful products. Subsection (3) further strengthens that by extending the rules to include representations of these products, such as promotional materials or images that might signify them at the point of sale, which is again welcome.

Currently, vaping products are often displayed prominently in retail settings, frequently at checkout counters or in bright, attention-grabbing displays. That placement encourages impulse purchases and can make those products more appealing to young people. Unlike tobacco products, which have strict display restrictions, vaping and nicotine products remain accessible and visible in shops, and the standard packaging laws for cigarettes do not apply, for example, to their shape and colour. Clause 13 aims to address that disparity by introducing measures to regulate the visibility and presentation of the products.

The collaborative approach to the consultation will hopefully strike the right balance between public health objectives and the interests of businesses, but I urge the Minister to give further information on how we can strike that balance while maintaining that the important thing is to protect the health of the public, particularly children, from vaping products. Both nicotine and non-nicotine vaping products, unlike tobacco, are currently allowed to be displayed at the point of sale in shops on countertops, in eye-catching displays on the shop floor, and in the windows. It is somewhat ironic that sweeties and chocolate have been banned at the till because of the pester power of children, only to be replaced in some shops by vapes. I suggest that, if any parent were given the choice, they would rather their children were having sweets than vapes, which are clearly addictive and much more harmful. There is much to be considered on the nature of unintended consequences, as well as the nature of the industry with which we are dealing.

[Jack Rankin]

My hon. Friend is making an eloquent case that we should not be advertising vapes, or their pricing and products, to children. What she is not doing is making a case for banning the display of products or prices of vapes to adults. Does she think it is incongruous to treat tobacco products and vaping products in the same way in this clause?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Part of me wants to say, “Well, what do you do when the child goes into the newsagent? Put a blindfold on them?” If the displays are visible to adults, they will be visible to the children who are walking beside them. It would be helpful if my hon. Friend has any ideas on how we can ensure that, when walking into an average newsagent, children cannot see something that grown-ups can.

[Jack Rankin]

rose—

[Dr Johnson]

If my hon. Friend has a suggestion, I shall let him back in.

[Jack Rankin]

I suggest to my hon. Friend that advertising a vape with Mickey Mouse is obviously aimed at a child, but it would be very much aimed at an adult, and not attractive to a child at all, to advertise a vape with, “This is what smoking 40 cigarettes a day costs you over a year. This is what our product costs. This is what you would save.” That would very much be in line with the aims of a smoke-free generation.

[Dr Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, which goes to the principle of advertising, and whether there needs to be an exemption for medical advertising of vaping as a stop smoking tool by health professionals, for example in doctors’ surgeries, where it may also be visible to child patients. That is not really the aim of clauses 13 and 14, which focus on the display of products in shops. They are less about how the products are advertised and more about where they are displayed and how visible they are to someone shopping.

To some extent, my hon. Friend has a point about how we convey the message to smokers that vaping devices are items they can use to help them quit smoking—a message given by the chief medical officer—and about the distinction between that advertising and the sort of advertising that sees sports stadiums and sports shirts emblazoned with the brands of vaping companies, such that young children watching their heroes on the pitch, playing football or rugby, see vaping as a good thing. We will come to that later, but it is distinctly different from clauses 13 and 14.

At the moment, the legislation most relevant to where products are displayed is probably the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, known as the TRPR, which brought EU tobacco products directive 2014/40 into law. The regulations, which are now in the form of retained EU law, set standards for nicotine vapes, including limits on nicotine strength, bottle and tank sizes, and rules on packaging and advertising. But when it comes to the display of vape products, there are no specific regulations. They are openly displayed in stores, in large and small shops, both household names and individual retail outlets. They are also displayed in outlets that we might not expect. I noticed that the place I took my son for a haircut was selling both haircuts and vapes, and that a shop in the local town that repairs mobile phones and sells second-hand devices also sells vapes. The number of places that sell vapes and display them in their shop window is remarkable.

The Department of Health and Social Care has expressed concern about the lack of regulation, warning that children can easily see and pick up vapes due to them being displayed within aisles close to sweets, and on accessible shelves and display towers on the shop floor close to children’s eye level. A particular concern to me—and no doubt to many others in the Committee—is the visual similarity between a vape display and a shelf of sweets. Vapes are often displayed in an array of eye-catching colours. It is not uncommon to see them in a rainbow, with a range of sweet and fruity flavours on offer, including specific sweet brand names like Skittles, Starburst and Sour Patch Kids. The way they are sometimes presented as a safe alternative to smoking—which we understand that they are for smokers—can mislead consumers into thinking they are risk free, which is concerning considering that they contain nicotine and other harmful chemicals. I have also noticed a fashion for an increasing number of products to be advertised as pure, fresh, natural and organic, potentially to give the impression that they are less damaging than they are.

Finally, I have not seen this raised before, but I would like the Minister to consider that the fact that these highly addictive products are so easily accessible on the shop floor and at children’s height makes it easy for children to pick them up and walk out with them, particularly if they want to avoid being asked for ID by the shopkeeper. Putting them behind the counter where they are less accessible to children may reduce that temptation.

Clauses 14, 61 and 79 relate to similar regulations in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. I do not intend to go through them and repeat my arguments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

It will not surprise my hon. Friend that I do not agree with him. The last thing we need is more people going through our GP surgeries. We should allow legitimate use of these discounts in a public health manner. Some of the problems I have with the structure of some of the clauses from here on in is that they give quite sweeping regulatory power to Ministers, perhaps through secondary legislation. The Minister might say that the Government do not necessarily want to restrict those things, but the lack of certainty may result in a chilling of investment by legitimate vaping companies. If we want genuinely to move to a smoke-free generation, I do not think that is something we should encourage; we should be advocating such responsible investment.

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend is talking about the availability and visibility of products, and my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon talked about the availability of vaping products as medical products. However, the Committee heard evidence from the MHRA that there are no medically approved vaping devices currently registered in the United Kingdom. While it continues to encourage vaping companies to come forward with a vaping product for regulation and medical assessment, that so far has not come to fruition.

[Jack Rankin]

I take the shadow Minister’s point, but I think the Minister said in summing up the clause 10 stand part debate that while vaping potentially was not harm-free, given its harm compared with cigarettes, that was something that the Government would want to see.

Clause 15 does not say that there should not be discounts on products for children or products for recreational use; it leaves the scope quite broad. I think the Government have got that wrong, and that it might have a direct adverse effect on the kinds of partnerships I described. I saw some polling recently that showed that the general public thought vaping was as dangerous as smoking, and this is the kind of messaging that gives that wrong impression, which is against the Government’s stated aim.

Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Taiwo Owatemi.)

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Jack Rankin

Committee stage
Thursday 9th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

Thank you, Sir Roger. I am very grateful for your guidance. I think spending much of the night trying to get to grips with the various drafts has left me a little tired. I appreciate the difference. As you said, the process is somewhat confusing, but at least we are moving through it steadily.

Amendment 17 would significantly alter the scope of clause 1 by replacing the birth date-specific restriction of 1 January 2009. Instead of targeting individuals born on or after that date, the new provision would make it an offence to sell tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers to anyone under the age of 25. That modification would shift the focus from creating a tobacco-free generation to implementing a uniform age limit similar to the one that we have already.

[Jack Rankin (Windsor) (Con)]

My hon. Friend knows that we disagree on the principle of clause 1, and my objection is primarily to creating two tiers of adults. One of the benefits of the Bill, as it is currently written, is that it is at least a time-limited measure. In other words, when that generation dies out, every adult will be one tier again. With amendment 17, however, we will effectively have two tiers of adults forever, so a 19-year-old will always—or until we change the law again—be able to drink but will not be able to smoke, and that will be set in stone. Does my hon. Friend agree that, even if she thinks we should create two tiers of adults for public health purposes, we should try to delimit that as much as possible, and therefore the principle of the amendment should not be accepted by this Committee?

[The Chair]

Order. Another thing colleagues might notice is that that was quite a long intervention. Customarily in Committee, as opposed to on the Floor of the House, it is not unusual for a Chair to allow a fairly long intervention, because quite often that obviates the need for a speech later. Be aware of that flexibility.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman’s intervention highlights the fact that in Parliament we benefit from the experience of so many different people. Each of us comes to this place with our own history, backstory and experience of working in a whole range of different professions and jobs. That is one of the reasons why we go through these Bills line by line. It may seem to some extent slow and plodding to go through things so methodically, but that means that each person can, as he has, bring their experience forward and explain the ways that tills and such things work, which is really beneficial. I thank him for that intervention.

[Jack Rankin]

I slightly disagree with the hon. Member for North Somerset. It seems to me that over time, we have been getting more consistent in our understanding of what an adult is. Obviously, I am quite a young man, but when I turned 16, I could buy a lottery ticket, I could get married without my parents’ permission and I could join the Army. I could then learn to drive at 17. Many of those have been regularised in the last few years, so the age for buying lottery tickets is now 18 and one cannot get married before 18 either. That is part of ensuring consistency about what an adult is.

It may well be true that pharmacies have such technology, and I understand why, but most cigarettes are bought in small newsagents and I would not necessarily expect them to have the same technology. We should be supporting consistency in what an adult is—that is the direction in which legislation has been moving—and not creating added complexity.

[Dr Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his helpful intervention. I do not know whether any Member present has worked in a small corner shop and could tell us whether they have the same level of technology. Perhaps the Minister or his officials know whether the same level of technology is used in shops across the board. I am afraid that I do not know the answer to that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman is right that the measures have broad support. Certainly, the pollsters who have investigated people’s views of this legislation—that proposed by the previous Government and the legislation as it is now, with some tweaks to it—have found the public to be overwhelmingly positive. We legislate because we are elected by those people. On the basis of their opinions and given that policing in this country is done by consent—

[Jack Rankin]

On the civil liberties point, I disagree with my hon. Friend entirely, as she well knows. The point about civil liberties is that they need protecting not when the majority agree, but when the majority do not agree. The hon. Member for Winchester made the point that all the experts agreed. We listened to a cohort of experts who were from a variety of fields, but they were also all in some way paid for by the state and had some vested interest in the Bill—they were not retailers, consumers and so on— [Interruption.] We had one person out of 15. It was really not a well-balanced affair at all, so I disagree with that point.

[Dr Johnson]

I think that comes back to the issue of choice. The chief medical officer said that the only choice we make is the choice to have that first hit of nicotine; after that, our choice is taken from us by the profound addiction that we experience. One of the challenges with stopping smoking is that people get powerful cravings. Despite their overwhelming desire to stop, the cravings drive people to have a cigarette that they do not really want or would rather not have because of their addiction.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

It was my intention to ensure that the debate, even if it is on issues I do not support, got a hearing and that Members of the House who wished to contribute were able to do so. The purpose was to allow the amendments to be debated. I do not intend to push any of them to a vote.

[Jack Rankin]

I would like to support those amendments, if that changes anything, Sir Roger.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Jack Rankin

Committee stage
Thursday 9th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

Amendment 56 proposes a change to clause 1 and specifically targets the penalty provision for offenses under the sale of tobacco section on page 2, line 9. It suggests adding the phrase

“, save if it is a first offence.”

at the end of the current penalty clause, effectively modifying the penalties described for violations of the tobacco sale law. Under the legislation, as it is currently proposed, clause 1 specifies:

“A person who commits an offence under this section is liable…to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.”

However, this penalty applies without any distinction to all offenders, regardless of whether it is their first offence or a repeat violation. Amendment 56 introduces an exception for first-time offenders, suggesting that they may receive a reduced or different penalty instead of the full fine that is typically prescribed.

[Jack Rankin]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but could my hon. Friend illustrate what levels 3 and 4 mean in practice and how they might read across to similar products, such as alcohol, so we can have some context for what she proposes?

[Dr Johnson]

My intention was to set out what these amendments seek to do and then to discuss the reasons why that might, or might not, be a good idea, and I will come to my hon. Friend’s very important point when I do so. The principle of amendment 56 is to bring in reduced or different penalties for those committing their first offence compared with those committing subsequent or repeated offences. This change acknowledges that businesses or individuals who commit an offence for the first time may not require the full penalty, but may require education or a form of leniency or mitigation. It separates first-time offenders from repeat offenders, offering an opportunity for compliance without the harshest penalties on the first offence. It could incentivise more careful compliance with the law, especially by businesses that are new or small, or are unfamiliar with or unintentionally violating the regulations on selling tobacco, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers.

Amendment 57, also within this group, proposes to amend clause 1, page 2, line 9 by adding a new subsection (4A), which specifically addresses the penalties for first-time offenders who admit guilt under the sale of tobacco section. This amendment introduces a more lenient penalty, stipulating that first-time offenders would be

“liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a caution.”

Under clause 1(4), as it reads without the amendment, a person who commits an offence under that section is liable to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale, regardless of whether it is their first offence. The addition of proposed subsection (4A), however, distinguishes and separates first-time offenders by offering a potentially reduced fine—level 3 instead of level 4—or alternatively a caution, which is a formal warning and a less severe still form of penalty.

The next amendment within this group, amendment 67, proposes an amendment to clause 50, page 25, line 34, adding two new paragraphs to subsection (5) and inserting new subsection (5A). Clause 50 is essentially a read- across of clause 1. There is understandable desire within Government to see the four nations of the United Kingdom having the same policy. That is simpler, it means that we can protect the health of people across the country, and it also makes it easier to enforce and manage the law. In Scottish law, the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 essentially provides Scottish tobacco regulations; clause 50 of the Bill thus alters sections 4, 4B, 6 and 8 of that legislation, so that the legislation in Scotland can essentially follow clause 1 in the rest of the United Kingdom. Amendment 67 is therefore designed to do to clause 50 what amendment 56 does to clause 1, introducing the phrase,

“, save if it is a first offence.”

to section 4(5) of the 2010 Act.

In doing so, it effectively exempts first-time offenders from the usual penalties set out in that section, which typically involve higher fines or penalties.

Secondly, amendment 67 introduces proposed new subsection (5A) to section 4 of the 2010 Act, specifying:

“A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under subsection (1)”,

related to selling tobacco products to minors,

“is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale”—

consistent with amendment 57—

“or a recorded police warning”,

which I understand is the equivalent of a police caution in the rest of England and Wales. This change allows a more lenient treatment of first-time offenders, in line with the approach seen in other amendments aimed at reducing penalties for first offences.

The level 3 fine is less severe than the typical penalty under the current system, which could be level 4, and the recorded police warning offers an alternative that serves as an official notice without a financial burden. The amendment applies specifically to Scotland rather than to the rest of the United Kingdom, and its discretionary penalty for first-time offenders is intended to focus on correction, compliance and education rather than simply punishment of offenders. It promotes a more rehabilitative approach for those committing what is, relatively speaking, a minor offence for the first time.

Amendment 73 to clause 68, by adding the words

“, save if it is a first offence.”

is designed to introduce a more lenient approach to individuals committing an offence under the clause for the first time. Again, clause 68 is essentially a read-across of clause 1 into Northern Irish legislation. Northern Ireland has its own legislation on tobacco control, which the clause will amend. It substitutes clauses such that we have the same rules for tobacco purchasing in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, making them harmonious across our country. The amendment would provide in clause 68, and therefore in Northern Ireland, what the Government seek to provide for the rest of the country, which is the rolling smoke-free generation legislation. The exemption would mean that those who commit an offence under the clause would not be subject to the usual penalties if it was their first offence.

Amendment 74 would add a new paragraph (4A) to article 3 of the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978, to specify that a person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under the clause is

“is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a conditional caution.”

My understanding is that a conditional caution in Northern Ireland is similar to a police warning in Scotland and to a caution in England and Wales.

The intent behind the amendments is to provide a more lenient penalty for first-time offenders than for those who have committed the offence previously, in particular by allowing a fine capped at level 3 on the standard scale, which is obviously lower than level 4. Alternatively, there would be the option of a conditional caution, which means the opportunity for the offender to avoid a formal criminal conviction by complying with certain conditions, such as attending educational courses or engaging in community service. The original briefing suggested that we would discuss amendments 75 and 76 at this stage, but I understand that we are going to postpone those to the debate on clause 2, so I shall leave them for now.

I will talk about the effects of the amendments, but first I will answer the question my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor asked about what the standard scale is and what it means. On the standard scale, a level 3 fine has a maximum of £1,000 and a level 4 fine has a maximum of £2,500. Cautions are given to people over the age of 10 years who admit an offence and agree to be cautioned by the police; they do not amount to a criminal conviction, but they may appear on a Disclosure and Barring Service check, which is required for some forms of employment. The amendments speak to the proportionality and purpose of the penalties, which ought to be set at a level that is both a reasonable punishment and an effective deterrent. It is important to prevent crimes and to maintain the confidence of the public.

When we debate clause 1 later today, we will discuss further the challenges faced by shop workers implementing the provisions in the Bill; no doubt, we will also discuss who is liable for the fines. I invite the Minister to consider who he wishes to be responsible for them. Does he wish it to be the shop worker—the chap or lady working in the shop? Does he expect it to be the shop manager, the shift supervisor, the owner of the business or the chief executive of a major company? That is a relevant consideration when thinking about the proportionality of the fine. A fine of £1,000 may not deter a large supermarket chain, but it may well deter and be a substantial penalty for someone who works part time in a shop while working as a student. The size of the fine is a relevant consideration.

[Jack Rankin]

My hon. Friend might best be able to provide clarification. Perhaps I have misunderstood, perhaps this is a mistake or perhaps it is deliberate. I understand why each jurisdiction of the United Kingdom has to be taken separately, but do I understand correctly that in clause 68, which covers Northern Ireland, the suggestion is that it should be a level 5 offence, whereas in clause 1, which covers England, the suggestion is it should be a level 4 offence, and my hon. Friend is seeking an amendment to make it a level 3 offence in the first instance? Why would that offence be a different level in different parts of the United Kingdom? The Minister is frowning.

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[Jack Rankin]

It is the top of page 36. As I understand it, clause 68 makes the sale of tobacco a level 5 offence in Northern Ireland, and my hon. Friend is seeking to make the first offence a level 3 offence, but on page 1, clause 1(4) makes the sale of tobacco a level 4 offence. It seems that there is a an inequity there, which perhaps is deliberate or perhaps I have misunderstood. I support her opinion, but it seems that there is a difference between the different nations of the United Kingdom and I do not understand why that is the case.

[Dr Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. It brings us to the heart of the next part of my speech, which is the inconsistency between different parts of the United Kingdom. We will come on to other inconsistencies in further amendments to clause 1 relating to age verification processes. As for why there are differences in the legislation as drafted, I am afraid I did not draft it; the Minister did. Perhaps he will say whether that was intentional or whether he wishes to amend it later.

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[Dr Johnson]

It is a pleasure to discuss the substantive portion of the Bill, starting with clause 1. This Bill is vital health legislation. It takes a much-needed regulatory approach to vaping, as well as phasing out the sale of tobacco for the next generation. I am proud that, as the Minister has said, it was the last Conservative Government who first introduced the legislation. I pay tribute to the former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak), for championing this issue, and to Dr Javed Khan for his comprehensive 2022 review, “Making smoking obsolete”, which is where I first saw the suggestion of a rolling ban. I am pleased that this iteration of the Bill continues to have strong cross-party and cross-national support. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) for his long-standing and tireless campaigning on nicotine and tobacco, and to Dame Andrea Leadsom, the Minister in the previous Bill Committee, whose proceedings began in April 2024.

It is now a truth universally acknowledged that smoking is bad for health. It is the leading cause of preventable death in this country. It is responsible for about 80,000 deaths a year. When we say that number, it is easy for us to let it trip off the tongue without realising just how many people it represents. For each of them, there is a personal story.

My own Nana Burton, my dad’s mother, smoked all her life—she smoked Woodbines—and she died of lung cancer. When she was diagnosed, her response was to buy herself some filters and start smoking filter cigarettes because they might be better for her, but it did not do any good. She used to smoke in the living room, and the ceiling had to be repainted annually for Christmas because there used to be an orange-yellow stain above her chair where the smoke had gone up. Perhaps not surprisingly, two of her children also smoked. My Uncle Alan died of emphysema following a lifetime of smoking, and my Aunty Chrissie died of oesophageal cancer following a lifetime of smoking. We do see—it has been discussed already—the pattern of generations. One benefit of the clause is that by breaking that cycle, we can stop generational smoking. We know that people are more likely to smoke if their parents do. My dad does not and never has, and perhaps that is why I do not, either.

As we come to what I hope will be the end of tobacco in many ways, it is worth casting our mind back to its history. Tobacco is actually not that old a product. It was first brought to England on 27 July 1586 by Sir Walter Raleigh, as the story goes. He brought it to England from Virginia, along with potatoes and maize—perhaps he should have stuck with potatoes and maize. It is said that his servants, seeing him smoking a pipe, threw water on him because they thought he was on fire. It was held at the time to be excellent for your health, whereas potatoes were viewed with great suspicion. Tobacco was touted as a relief for toothache, worms, halitosis—well, it certainly changes the smell of people’s breath—falling fingernails and even cancer. It is also said that in 1600 he tempted Queen Elizabeth to try smoking, and it was then copied by the rest of the population.

By the turn of the 17th century, tobacco was very commonplace and starting to cause concern. Sir Francis Bacon noted:

“The use of tobacco has immensely increased in our time”,

and that it gave men

“a kind of secret pleasure, so that persons once accustomed to it can scarce leave it off”—

an early description of the addiction that the chief medical officer described in evidence earlier in the week. If that period was when smoking first became popular, it is also when we find the very first anti-tobacco campaigning and regulation in this country. King James I, who was perhaps before his time in some respects, in 1604 produced a pamphlet called “A Counterblaste to Tobacco”, one of the earliest anti-smoking and anti-tobacco publications known. He reckoned that tobacco caused serious social problems and serious health issues; he described it as

“hatefull to the Nose, harmefull to the braine, dangerous to the Lungs, and in the blacke stinking fume thereof, neerest resembling the horrible Stigian smoke of the pit that is bottomelesse.”

Although that pamphlet was published 400 years ago, James I was not far off, and his words ring true today. He also, recognising the dangers, put an import tax on tobacco to try to reduce its use, and he noticed what the doctors in this Committee will have seen in their anatomy classes—I think there are pictures now on cigarette packets too—of black scarring in the lungs of people who smoked. Of course, that was not enough to put people off; during the great plague of 1665-66, at Eton College it was made compulsory for all the boys to smoke tobacco to protect them, which I thought was interesting.

Fast forward, though, to the 20th century and we begin to see tobacco being mass produced rather than sold as a luxury item. There had been some strides in regulation, such as the Children Act 1908, which forbade the sale of tobacco for those under the age of 16. It is interesting that it took from 1908 to almost modern times for that age limit to change.

After the conclusion of the war, tobacco companies had a captive audience, with lots of male soldiers wanting more, so they turned their attention to women. Recognising the strides that women had made during the suffrage movement, they cleverly used the equality angle as a basis for their mass marketing campaign to “light up for freedom”. They were also sold light or “Mild as May” cigarettes, which were supposed to be a more feminine version but were no doubt just as harmful.

As the chief medical officer said in evidence on Tuesday, big tobacco is very clever. As reports began to emerge suggesting a link between smoking, cancer and a whole host of other issues, tobacco advertising began to change tack. Cigarettes were no longer sold as being “Mild as May”, but focused on a male audience once again, promoting rugged individualism and stoicism. The Marlboro Man became a regular feature of motorsport events such as Formula 1 and featured on ski jackets and other clothing.

At that stage, to be pro-smoking was to be pro-choice, a rationale that amounted to “Die like a man, die free”. It is interesting that it was promoted as a form of choice—the argument being used against clause 1 today—when actually, as has been described to us in evidence, the only choice people make is that first cigarette. Once they have taken their first cigarette, they can become addicted to it, so the next cigarette is not the choice it is set out to be.

[Jack Rankin]

I take the point my hon. Friend is quite eloquently making, but might I suggest to her that times have very much changed: the advertising that she has talked about has long since been restricted, the idea that smoking is seen in that same way and is prevalent throughout society is no longer true, and perhaps the arguments she is making are not as relevant today as they might have been in the past?

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend is right that the advertising restrictions have changed, because the Governments of different colours over the period have changed them. That has reduced tobacco smoking, which for people’s health is a good thing, as I am sure he agrees.

I am advised that the five men who appeared as the Marlboro Man all died of smoking-related illnesses, which is very sad to hear. In the 1950s, we started to see reports in the British Medical Journal that suggested a link between smoking and lung cancer, and by 1962 the Royal College of Physicians had enough evidence to push for a ban on advertising. Tobacco advertising has been banned on television since 1965, and a national warning sign saying, “SMOKING CAN DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH” was imposed in 1971.

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[Dr Johnson]

Thank you, Mr Dowd. My intention was merely to illustrate to the Committee the benefits of clause 1, rather than the risks, and the effect that reducing tobacco consumption will have on the environment and the public.

Early on in this Committee, the hon. Member for Winchester raised the issue of pets. We have a much-loved cocker spaniel. We do not smoke in our house, or at all, but it had not occurred to me that animals would be affected by smoking, too—it is obvious, when I think about it. Every day is a school day.

The number of smokers is falling, with only 12.9% of the English population smoking—I say “only”, but that is still 6.4 million people—which is a significant drop. However, there is still more to do, and this legislation is an effort, in part, to do that.

So what does clause 1 do? Essentially, it changes the age of sale for tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers so that those born on or after 1 January 2009 will never be legally sold these products in England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, replacing the existing legislation, which sets the age of sale at 18. I appreciate that 1 January 2009 was the date set by the previous Government, but I wonder whether that was the reason the Minister chose it, or whether there was a more special reason. Given that we want to get children and adults not smoking as quickly as possible, why did he not choose to bring it forward a year? Why that date, specifically? Does he think it needs time to bed in, or does he think that leaves enough time to bed in?

I want to talk about subsection (1)(a) on tobacco products. There is a huge variety of tobacco products. We have talked mostly today about cigarettes, because they are the most common tobacco products, although they come in various different forms. There are also cigars, as my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor talked about earlier.

[Jack Rankin]

I will just expand the point a little bit. My understanding of heated tobacco, for example—my hon. Friend is a medical professional, so she may take a different view—is that where it has been introduced en masse, such as in Japan, there has been a 70% fall in cigarette sales. If we are talking about a smoke-free generation, and the health benefits that she and Government Members are talking about, is banning all tobacco products necessarily the right way to go about that?

[Dr Johnson]

Some people talk about celebrating special events with a cigar. My hon. Friend talked about new year’s eve, birthdays, the birth of a child or weddings—people might celebrate those sort of events with a cigar, although it is not as popular as it once was. It is possibly most famously associated with Winston Churchill. I think the expression “close, but no cigar” comes from the practice of giving away cigars as prizes at fairground games, which is thankfully not something we encourage today. Intriguingly, cigars have often evaded smoking bans, as a special exemption remains in place that allows customers of cigar shops to smoke on the premises, the idea being that smokers sample a product before committing to buying an entire box. Just a few hundred metres from where we stand, Members can stroll down St James’s Street and then smoke a cigar indoors, entirely legally, at the establishments that sell them. I think cigars have been given special treatment in the in the past for that reason. The Minister may consider that people who find themselves banned from tobacco, but addicted to it, may decide that they are going to smoke lots of cigars, but I would be interested to understand his thought processes on that.

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[Dr Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, which builds on the point I was trying to make.

The issue of managing individuals addicted to smoking who come to the UK is an important one. On my last foray through Heathrow, I met a gentleman who was unhappy to find himself there; I think he had been supposed to land in Paris but weather had intervened, and he was not happy at Heathrow because there was nowhere for him to smoke. I think he was travelling back to South Africa, having watched the rugby.

How we manage smokers who come here to visit as tourists or as migrants is an important economic question. If people come here permanently, what investment will the Minister make to promote awareness among such individuals of the various nicotine replacement therapies that might be available to them, in order to help them to quit smoking and improve their own health, which is obviously very important?

[Jack Rankin]

I will just expand on that point a little. The United Kingdom is something like the third biggest tourist destination in the world. Forgive my ignorance—there is a lot of paperwork here—but obviously we are trying to make the sale of tobacco and the distribution to others of tobacco illegal in the UK, and I have not seen a clause in the Bill that would make bringing cigarettes into the country for one’s own use illegal. Maybe the Minister will correct me on that.

We obviously have a tourism issue in that regard, but I was also thinking about when G7 leaders come to the UK. President Obama was famously a smoker. Will the United Kingdom not be able to host a G7 event, which is obviously of massive significance, if there is a leader of the free world who smokes? Their attendance might be vetoed. There are lots of things that have just not been thought about.

[Dr Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I have not seen a clause in the Bill that prevents tobacco from being imported. The Minister will no doubt correct me if I am wrong about that; however, it does not look as if he is going to. If the leader of another G7 nation is coming to a conference in the UK, he will be bound by the same laws as everybody else. If that means he cannot buy cigarettes, then he cannot buy cigarettes, although I suspect that the current leader of the Bahamas was probably born before 1 January 2009, so we are safe for a little while.

However, it is right that my hon. Friend raised the point. After all, the purpose of this Committee is to ensure that someone has gone through the Bill line by line and thought about all the various different esoteric concerns that might be raised, and to ensure that they are brought to the fore. I am sure that the Minister will be able to reassure us that the volume of tobacco that can be brought into the UK for personal use will exceed the amount that the average president might wish to use while they were here attending a conference. Who knows? The final point was about employers. Will they be required to train people in age estimation? Given that the evidence for that does not exist—we were told in evidence to the Committee earlier in the week that such training does not exist—would that form part of the reasonable steps? It would be reassuring to me if it does not, in particular for small businesses, which already bear a number of burdens in tax at the moment.

Amendment 68 is an Opposition amendment, in my name. It would prevent the imposition of penalties for a first offence pertaining to the sale of nicotine vape products to individuals under 18. It would modify section 4A of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010, which regulates the sale of nicotine vapour products to a person under 18, by introducing lenient penalties for first-time offenders. The amendment stipulates that the penalties typically applied for selling such products to minors will not apply for the first offence. The new provision would allow first-time offenders who admit guilt either to receive a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, or to be issued a discretionary recorded police warning—similar to a caution—instead of facing more severe penalties.

The change aims to provide a less punitive approach for first-time violations, offering flexibility in enforcement while still holding offenders accountable. It comes back to the point that we made about proportionality in relation to the group of amendments that included amendment 56, and to the Minister’s comments on who exactly will be responsible for the fine—whether that is the shopkeeper or shop worker, or indeed whether it can be both.

Amendment 69 would add to section 4B(7) of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 the phrase

“save if it is a first offence”,

and insert a new subsection (7A) after subsection (7). The provisions would ensure that individuals who commit a first offence under the age verification policy in relation to the sale of tobacco, and herbal smoking, vaping and nicotine products, are treated more leniently than repeat offenders. That goes back to the difference between a rogue trader and a young Saturday worker who mistakes the age of an older person.

The first change made by amendment 69 would limit the application of harsher penalties to those who have already been convicted, meaning that first-time offenders will not face the same level of penalty as those who have a history of non-compliance. The second change—the addition of the new subsection (7A)—would establish a graduated response for first-time offenders. It specifies that anyone who admits guilt for the first time, for their first offence, would be subject to a much lower fine of no more than level 2 on the standard scale, or a recorded police warning.

That is a significant reduction, compared with the penalties that may apply to repeat offenders, so it would offer more lenient consequences for a first offence. The recorded police warning would serve as an official notice, preventing the individual from avoiding further legal consequences if they do not comply with the conditions of the warning. That is similar to our earlier discussions about proportionality, and the Minister may want to comment further on that in relation to these amendments.

Finally, new clause 3 seeks to amend clause 1 to introduce a prohibition on the sale of tobacco products to individuals born on or after 1 January 2009. The new clause would require businesses to offer an age verification policy to establish the age of persons who attempt to buy tobacco products. The policy must include the steps that are needed to verify the age of a person who attempts to purchase any of those products, if it appears that they may be under the age of 25 or any other age specified in the policy—in this case, the age of a person born on or after 1 January 2009.

New clause 3 outlines certain exemptions, specifying that businesses from which tobacco, herbal smoking products, vaping products or nicotine products are dispatched for delivery to other premises do not need to operate an age verification policy, to help with trade and providing them to retailers. It would avoid problems with businesses and delivery services that do not interact directly with the customer or end user in person. The new clause would allow the appropriate national authority in England or Wales to regulate the details of those policies, including by providing guidance on the steps that businesses need to take to verify age, the type of identification that can be accepted and the training requirements for staff.

I note that the Minister suggested that he would reject new clause 3. I am interested to understand which of the steps taken to verify age, to train people in identification and to set out training requirements for staff he does not want. The implementation of this age verification policy would reflect similar measures that are already in place in Scotland, which are included specifically in this Bill and are designed to ensure that individuals who are under the legal age are not sold these products. The Scottish legislation provides legal underpinning to the Challenge 25 scheme, which operates voluntarily in the rest of the UK.

There is an argument that customers in the rest of the UK are uncertain whether they will need to provide ID, whereas customers in Scotland under the age of 25 are certain that they will need to provide their ID. I am not sure that that holds water in some respects, because if one is close to the age of 18 or fortunate enough to look it, one is expecting it—although, as I said before, I was 38 the last time I was carded, and I did not expect it. I did not have my ID with me, and I was not able to buy the product, though I was amply old enough.

I note that in new clause 3, the fine is set at level 2, which is obviously lower than the level 3 fine. When she speaks to her new clause, can the hon. Member for City of Durham explain why she has chosen a level 2 fine? For the purpose of the new clause, the fine is applied to a business for not adequately training its staff to assess people’s age and putting them at risk of non-compliance with the law. Does she think that a level 2 fine, for which a young Saturday worker could be liable if they were to sell those products, is proportionate, or set at the right price point? We are trying to get businesses to comply, and a rogue business may be unlikely to be deterred by such a low amount.

Subsection (7) of new clause 3 stipulates that individuals selling tobacco products, cigarette papers, herbal smoking products, vaping products and nicotine products must undergo training. However, the practical implementation of age verification policies poses significant challenges, and businesses, especially small retailers, may lack the resources and training to effectively enforce them.

[Jack Rankin]

One thing that will be particularly operationally difficult is the period of time during which those on the shop floor may not be able to use cigarettes themselves, but they will not be prohibited from selling cigarettes. An 18-year-old shop worker might be asked to adjudicate whether someone is 33 or 34. In such instances, training might be really quite important.

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[Jack Rankin]

I take the Minister’s point that in a society in which we are looked after by our NHS, to which we all contribute, which is free at the point of use and which I am sure all of us across the House support, when someone smokes and creates a burden on society through health or social care, that is the responsibility of us all.

Where I think the difference lies is where we make a moral choice. I have heard different figures for the cost from cigarettes. There are different studies. I have heard numbers as low as £20 billion, but I think that today the Minister used £80 billion when talking about productivity. I think that should be calculated properly and appropriately with evidence, but if that is the cost, that is what we should levy in excise duty, at which point the people who impose that burden are the people paying it. That is where I would go, in principle. I think that if we go beyond that point, we are starting to make a moral decision on behalf of others.

[Dr Johnson]

I understand the “polluter pays” concept that my hon. Friend is raising, but he is also talking about the morality of the situation. What does he think of the morality of producing a product that we know, more than on the balance of probabilities, will kill the person who uses it and will make them an addict and remove their choice of whether to purchase any more?

[Jack Rankin]

My hon. Friend makes a very reasonable point, but there is not a single adult in this country who does not know how bad cigarettes are for them. It is an important function of Government to make that educational point. Governments of all colours have made it systematically, and it has massively changed the way people, including the new generation, perceive cigarettes. That education battle has been won. Once we have won that game, which I think we have, and once we have no longer socialised the healthcare cost to others, which is what I suggest cigarette duty should be doing, we are starting to make moral choices on behalf of others.

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[Jack Rankin]

Does the Minister perhaps not see the difficulty with the fact that we will be out of international lockstep with everybody? My understanding is that both New Zealand and Malaysia introduced a generational ban policy, and both have been repealed.

[Dr Johnson]

My understanding—I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong—is that New Zealand introduced the ban, but it had not come into force, at which point the Government changed. When the Government changed, the political views of the Government changed—as we have seen happen in our country. Sadly, as a result, the law was rescinded before it came into force in New Zealand.

[Jack Rankin]

I am well aware that that is the case. Part of the reason for that change in Government—although I do not want to overplay the significance of this singular issue—was that the incoming Government made an argument about the practicalities of enforcing such a law. Frankly, that is a significant concern of mine.

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[Jack Rankin]

I might make some headway, because I think that was more of a slap-down than a question for me.

[Dr Johnson]

It might be good to get on record some of the figures that appear in the Government’s impact assessment regarding the association between smoking and poverty. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that people who are poor or rich have the same agency and intellectual capacity to make decisions, but the figures show that the number of people in poorer areas who smoke is greater.

Figures produced in the Government’s impact assessment show that, in 2023, 20.2% of those in routine and manual work smoked, compared with 7.9% in managerial and professional populations. For those who owned their home outright, smoking rates were only 7%, but for those who rented local authority or housing association properties, smoking prevalence was 25.7%, which shows there is a marked inequality in smoking rates between rich and poor. The health inequalities we see across the population in other forms of ill health will be improved by clause 1, because smoking rates will fall in all populations. The change will be seen most in the poor.