Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Diana Johnson

Tuesday 20th October 2026 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. It is a struggle to get from the original question to where we are, but the Minister is happy to answer.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I will be mindful of your comment, Mr Speaker. What happened recently is totally unacceptable, and the Secretary of State has made that clear. My understanding is that those individuals who have accessed information about patients, and had no businesses to access it, have been suspended. Disciplinary action will follow, possibly with dismissals. Such actions are totally unacceptable.

[Dr Caroline Johnson]

Another issue that affects continuity of care is when patients remain in the emergency department for prolonged periods after a decision is made to admit them to a ward. That has gone up by over a third since the general election. Can the Government say why?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Times in A&E are being speeded up. The hon. Lady speaks with experience because she is a clinician, and I am happy to go away and look at that issue and write to her if there is information we need to let her have. My understanding is that we are speeding things up in A&E, and getting people through and on to the ward as quickly as possible.

Infants, Parents and Carers Bill

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Diana Johnson

Wednesday 14th October 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Caroline Johnson]

I think it is important that we have both women and men in politics, because fathers have an important role to play with babies too, and gentlemen can talk about their experiences of fatherhood. One of the challenges that some babies face is the lack of that male role model. It is a balance between the two. And, of course, women and men can talk about each or either topic if they wish to do so.

The other thing I want to talk about is interaction and play—the serve and return. Being played with and stimulated is very important for brain development, and a lack of it can lead to reduced attention span, reduced memory and weaker impulse control in the long run. People might believe that interaction and play come instinctively, and to some they do, but to others less so. Support and understanding of what they can do to help their baby is something that I think women and men value, because almost everyone loves their children intently, so they will want to do the best for their baby, and sometimes it is helpful to know what that is. I often get patients in clinic who come with one problem, but if they have a small infant, they will often say, “While I am here, doctor, can you just look at this? Can I just ask about that?” I am sure the hon. Member for Stroud, as a GP, will tell us the same. Parents ask because there are so many questions, and having the opportunity to have them answered is very important.

I also want to talk about inequalities, because we have talked a lot about them this morning. There is now inequality between the services provided in cities and those provided in rural areas. Does the Minister have any comments on how those services will be provided in rural environments? Very often the average income for a postcode may be good, but there will be hidden poverty within it, because of discrepancies within postcode averages that are seen less in cities. Transport can also be more difficult in rural areas. How will the Minister ensure that the services are accessible to those who need them?

I want to talk about the money, because if we invest £1 in a child’s life at this age, we can get £10 in return owing to better outcomes in the long run. Will the Minister confirm that the money for those services will be provided in full, and that there will be a workforce plan to ensure that there is a workforce to deliver them?

The hon. Member for Washington and Gateshead South, who I know has done a lot of work in this area over the years and cares about it very deeply, talks about outcomes. Outcomes are important, but so is value for money, because we must be careful with taxpayers’ money. What interventions are making the most difference, and how do we focus on achieving them? We need to think carefully about what we measure. Overall, however, this is a good Bill that will help infants and children to develop their full potential and have equality of opportunity, and therefore I will support it.

[The Minister for Public Health and Patient Safety (Dame Diana Johnson)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairwomanship this morning, Dame Siobhain. We have had a very thoughtful and well-informed debate on the Bill. I am grateful to all hon. Members who have contributed, but I pay particular tribute to the right hon. Member for New Forest West for introducing the Bill and for the care, determination and constructive spirit with which he has championed it. I will follow his lead and deal with both groupings in my remarks.

We can all agree that every baby should get the best possible start in life, and I am delighted that last month the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care announced the expansion of Healthy Babies to every local authority in England. Like Sure Start before it, Healthy Babies will make enhanced health support available in every part of England, giving all families access to trusted, practical help throughout the critical 1,001 days from conception to age two. The Bill will complement the Healthy Babies expansion by creating a clear and enduring framework for support from conception to age two, providing long-term visibility and accountability.

A number of important points have been raised in the debate today. First, the hon. Member for Chichester asked whether those undergoing IVF would be included as prospective parents. The Bill focuses on support from conception to age two, as we have heard, therefore parents who conceive through IVF will be covered from the point at which a pregnancy is established, in the same way as any other prospective parent.

The hon. Member for Chichester also asked about breastfeeding, and there were a number of contributions on that very important issue. She asked whether there would be support for it in the secondary legislation that would come forward. Our starting point for the secondary legislation will be the Healthy Babies offer, which includes maternity, health visiting, infant feeding support, perinatal mental health support and parent-infant relationship support, while remaining open to considering other services that evidence might show babies and families actually need—so the answer to that is absolutely yes.

We also heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Gateshead South. I pay tribute to her for all the work she did in her previous role to make sure that the Bill could come before us today and will move through its stages in the House. She made a thoughtful and well-informed contribution—as ever—in support of amendment 1. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South also supports amendment 1, and spoke so movingly about the very sad case of her constituent Chloe Wilshaw. I am glad that Ministers will be meeting my hon. Friend shortly.

My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West and Islwyn talked about her experience as a paediatric physiotherapist, and how important the support that families and mothers get from conception onwards is to ensuring that babies get the best start in life. My hon. Friend the Member for York Central made, as ever, a considered speech. She raised a number of points, including whether environmental issues would be considered. I was interested to hear the exchange between her and the right hon. Member for New Forest West on that point, and his belief that it is implicit in the Bill’s drafting that environmental issues would be considered, among others. The sharing of data among health and local authorities in respect of children at risk is absolutely a key issue that we need to work at.

The hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham raised the workforce plan. I am told that we will not have to wait too much longer and that a workforce plan will be published shortly, but I take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for York Central about the need for integrated workforce planning in respect of babies and children. I also recognise the need to include the voice and agency of families, mothers, fathers and carers in this whole issue.

Finally, pre-conception health is of course very important, but the Bill is deliberately focused on the clearly defined period from conception to age two, when support can be directly linked to pregnancy, childbirth and infant development. Extending the Bill further would significantly broaden its scope and duplicate wider public health policy.

Let me turn to the clauses. Clause 1 establishes the scope of the framework set out in the Bill. It requires the Secretary of State to make regulations specifying the publicly funded infant support services to which the Act will apply, together with the functions connected with their provision. Those services must support pregnancy or childbirth, an infant’s health and development, or the relationship between an infant and their parent or carer. Crucially, the clause allows services and functions to be updated as needs and provisions evolve, thereby helping support to remain relevant to babies and families. Any change will be made through regulations subject to parliamentary oversight. That approach allows the framework to evolve as evidence, services and families’ needs change. The regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, so both Houses will have an opportunity to scrutinise and approve them.

Clause 2 puts the needs and experience of infants, parents and carers at the heart of national decision making. It helps to ensure that babies, whose voices are too often unheard, are not overlooked. We all know that the period from conception to age two is a golden opportunity to shape life, health, learning and happiness. The clause therefore requires the Secretary of State to assess the expected level of need for infant support services specified in the Bill. This is a practical, evidence-informed approach. So that it can respond to the needs of babies and families as they change, the clause deliberately does not prescribe every detail of the assessment. It does, however, establish a clear expectation that need will be understood and kept under review, thereby helping to inform decisions about services and resources.

Infants, Parents and Carers Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Diana Johnson

Committee stage
Wednesday 14th October 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Caroline Johnson]

I think it is important that we have both women and men in politics, because fathers have an important role to play with babies too, and gentlemen can talk about their experiences of fatherhood. One of the challenges that some babies face is the lack of that male role model. It is a balance between the two. And, of course, women and men can talk about each or either topic if they wish to do so.

The other thing I want to talk about is interaction and play—the serve and return. Being played with and stimulated is very important for brain development, and a lack of it can lead to reduced attention span, reduced memory and weaker impulse control in the long run. People might believe that interaction and play come instinctively, and to some they do, but to others less so. Support and understanding of what they can do to help their baby is something that I think women and men value, because almost everyone loves their children intently, so they will want to do the best for their baby, and sometimes it is helpful to know what that is. I often get patients in clinic who come with one problem, but if they have a small infant, they will often say, “While I am here, doctor, can you just look at this? Can I just ask about that?” I am sure the hon. Member for Stroud, as a GP, will tell us the same. Parents ask because there are so many questions, and having the opportunity to have them answered is very important.

I also want to talk about inequalities, because we have talked a lot about them this morning. There is now inequality between the services provided in cities and those provided in rural areas. Does the Minister have any comments on how those services will be provided in rural environments? Very often the average income for a postcode may be good, but there will be hidden poverty within it, because of discrepancies within postcode averages that are seen less in cities. Transport can also be more difficult in rural areas. How will the Minister ensure that the services are accessible to those who need them?

I want to talk about the money, because if we invest £1 in a child’s life at this age, we can get £10 in return owing to better outcomes in the long run. Will the Minister confirm that the money for those services will be provided in full, and that there will be a workforce plan to ensure that there is a workforce to deliver them?

The hon. Member for Washington and Gateshead South, who I know has done a lot of work in this area over the years and cares about it very deeply, talks about outcomes. Outcomes are important, but so is value for money, because we must be careful with taxpayers’ money. What interventions are making the most difference, and how do we focus on achieving them? We need to think carefully about what we measure. Overall, however, this is a good Bill that will help infants and children to develop their full potential and have equality of opportunity, and therefore I will support it.

[The Minister for Public Health and Patient Safety (Dame Diana Johnson)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairwomanship this morning, Dame Siobhain. We have had a very thoughtful and well-informed debate on the Bill. I am grateful to all hon. Members who have contributed, but I pay particular tribute to the right hon. Member for New Forest West for introducing the Bill and for the care, determination and constructive spirit with which he has championed it. I will follow his lead and deal with both groupings in my remarks.

We can all agree that every baby should get the best possible start in life, and I am delighted that last month the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care announced the expansion of Healthy Babies to every local authority in England. Like Sure Start before it, Healthy Babies will make enhanced health support available in every part of England, giving all families access to trusted, practical help throughout the critical 1,001 days from conception to age two. The Bill will complement the Healthy Babies expansion by creating a clear and enduring framework for support from conception to age two, providing long-term visibility and accountability.

A number of important points have been raised in the debate today. First, the hon. Member for Chichester asked whether those undergoing IVF would be included as prospective parents. The Bill focuses on support from conception to age two, as we have heard, therefore parents who conceive through IVF will be covered from the point at which a pregnancy is established, in the same way as any other prospective parent.

The hon. Member for Chichester also asked about breastfeeding, and there were a number of contributions on that very important issue. She asked whether there would be support for it in the secondary legislation that would come forward. Our starting point for the secondary legislation will be the Healthy Babies offer, which includes maternity, health visiting, infant feeding support, perinatal mental health support and parent-infant relationship support, while remaining open to considering other services that evidence might show babies and families actually need—so the answer to that is absolutely yes.

We also heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Gateshead South. I pay tribute to her for all the work she did in her previous role to make sure that the Bill could come before us today and will move through its stages in the House. She made a thoughtful and well-informed contribution—as ever—in support of amendment 1. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South also supports amendment 1, and spoke so movingly about the very sad case of her constituent Chloe Wilshaw. I am glad that Ministers will be meeting my hon. Friend shortly.

My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West and Islwyn talked about her experience as a paediatric physiotherapist, and how important the support that families and mothers get from conception onwards is to ensuring that babies get the best start in life. My hon. Friend the Member for York Central made, as ever, a considered speech. She raised a number of points, including whether environmental issues would be considered. I was interested to hear the exchange between her and the right hon. Member for New Forest West on that point, and his belief that it is implicit in the Bill’s drafting that environmental issues would be considered, among others. The sharing of data among health and local authorities in respect of children at risk is absolutely a key issue that we need to work at.

The hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham raised the workforce plan. I am told that we will not have to wait too much longer and that a workforce plan will be published shortly, but I take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for York Central about the need for integrated workforce planning in respect of babies and children. I also recognise the need to include the voice and agency of families, mothers, fathers and carers in this whole issue.

Finally, pre-conception health is of course very important, but the Bill is deliberately focused on the clearly defined period from conception to age two, when support can be directly linked to pregnancy, childbirth and infant development. Extending the Bill further would significantly broaden its scope and duplicate wider public health policy.

Let me turn to the clauses. Clause 1 establishes the scope of the framework set out in the Bill. It requires the Secretary of State to make regulations specifying the publicly funded infant support services to which the Act will apply, together with the functions connected with their provision. Those services must support pregnancy or childbirth, an infant’s health and development, or the relationship between an infant and their parent or carer. Crucially, the clause allows services and functions to be updated as needs and provisions evolve, thereby helping support to remain relevant to babies and families. Any change will be made through regulations subject to parliamentary oversight. That approach allows the framework to evolve as evidence, services and families’ needs change. The regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, so both Houses will have an opportunity to scrutinise and approve them.

Clause 2 puts the needs and experience of infants, parents and carers at the heart of national decision making. It helps to ensure that babies, whose voices are too often unheard, are not overlooked. We all know that the period from conception to age two is a golden opportunity to shape life, health, learning and happiness. The clause therefore requires the Secretary of State to assess the expected level of need for infant support services specified in the Bill. This is a practical, evidence-informed approach. So that it can respond to the needs of babies and families as they change, the clause deliberately does not prescribe every detail of the assessment. It does, however, establish a clear expectation that need will be understood and kept under review, thereby helping to inform decisions about services and resources.

Asylum Hotels: Migrant Criminal Activity

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Diana Johnson

Monday 21st July 2025 Commons Chamber

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I thank my hon. Friend for those comments. It might help the shadow Home Secretary if I say that the number of hotels has gone down under this Labour Government. [Interruption.] Despite what the shadow Home Secretary says, the number of hotels has gone down since the Government came into power.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Violent disorder is always wrong, but we need to recognise that it is a symptom of people’s outrage at the current situation, and of their fear of crime—particularly sexual crime—in their community. The Minister should focus not on the tone of questions in the House and what has happened in the past, but on what she will do to solve the problem. In that respect, I agree with what the Father of the House said about requiring a credible deterrent, so does the Minister regret cancelling the Rwanda scheme?

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I totally disagree with what the hon. Lady said. Violent disorder is not a symptom—it is criminal. It is thuggery; it is attacks on our brave police officers. There is no reason or excuse for what happened last summer or for any violent disorder that may happen in future. It is criminal, it should be prosecuted, and people should face the full consequences of the law.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Diana Johnson

Consideration of Lords amendments
Wednesday 30th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Dr Johnson]

I can only absolutely agree with my hon. Friend’s intervention.

I also want to talk about coercion, because we know that some women may be coerced into having an abortion.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

Before the hon. Lady moves on, I want to raise something with her. Obviously she has a clinical background, and she will know jolly well about the range of safeguarding measures that all clinicians, the royal colleges and all those involved in abortion care have to follow. She makes it sound as though no safeguards are in place. For instance, if a 14-year-old telephoned a clinician to seek advice around abortion, that clinician may well say, “I want to see you face to face.” There is nothing to stop that happening, and that may well be a proper safeguard that would carry on, irrespective of whether telemedicine carries on today.

[Dr Johnson]

With respect, the right hon. Lady makes my point for me, because that is right: there is nothing to stop that happening, and it may be that the doctor would say that they wanted to see the patient, but they do not have to do so. We know that abortions are being prescribed by telemedicine to children under the age of 18. If this measure had been looked at properly by the House as a single issue, rather than as this amendment to something else, we would have stipulated that children under the age of 18 should not be receiving abortions over the telephone without proper appointments, as I think they should and as the right hon. Lady, if I understand her correctly, also seems to be saying that they should.

We know that sometimes women and girls can be coerced into having abortions that they do not want, perhaps because the baby is of a gender or sex that the father does not want, perhaps because they are being abused, or perhaps they are being trafficked or sexually assaulted. It is very difficult for a woman to tell someone about that over the telephone, whereas if a woman is seen in clinic, she has that one-to-one opportunity.