Renters' Rights Bill (Second sitting)

Carla Denyer Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Rachel Blake]

Q You rightly highlighted that tenants will rely on local authorities to pursue enforcement and that there is a very variable standard among local authorities for doing so, although you mentioned that tenants would not be able to take enforcement action themselves. You have alluded to a possible duty—that is a question that you have thrown out there—but what other alternatives might there be?

Giles Peaker: Tenants will have their existing rights under the Homes (Fitness for Human Habitation) Act 2019 amendments to the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985. Quite how far that will overlap with the decent homes standard—well, we will have to see what is in the decent homes standard. There will certainly be some degree of overlap, I imagine, through the presence of housing, health and safety rating system hazards, so there would still be a route for tenants to take action on specific hazards, but it will not necessarily enforce decent homes, full stop.

Justin Bates KC: For my part, I think that by far the better tenant-empowerment repairing provisions of this legislation are the extension of Awaab’s law to the private sector. If you get the details of secondary legislation right, that could be a real game changer, because that will be enforceable by tenants through private law proceedings in the county court. If you set sufficiently robust—fair, but robust—timescales, you will do a lot of lawyers out of work, which would be an excellent thing. Look at that.

[Carla Denyer (Bristol Central) (Green)]

This is my first time on a Public Bill Committee, Sir Christopher, so I might make a mistake with process. May I briefly point Jerome at the answers provided in written evidence and in earlier verbal evidence, which I felt answered the question already? In terms of, “Surely, won’t all tenants do it?”, I think we heard a clear answer that, for the vast majority of the population, anything to do with courts is a terrifying and bureaucratically faffy process that they will not want to engage with. On “Won’t landlords just max it out”—

[The Chair]

Order. I am going to stop you there, because this is an opportunity for Committee members to ask questions of the people who have come along as witnesses. We have limited time and once we start opening up a debate with other Committee members, it will be at the expense of being able to hear what we hope is, and is likely to be, very valuable evidence. If you have a question for any of the members of the panel, I shall be happy to take it, but if not, I suggest that you have your arguments with other Members when we get into full line-by-line consideration, when there will be plenty of opportunity for you to intervene on another Member with whom you disagree.

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[Matthew Pennycook]

Yes, that is very useful. Thank you.

Anna Evans: In terms of the differences between your Bill and the private residential tenancy, I have to confess that I am not an expert on your Bill, so I cannot answer that in detail, but I can say that the PRT is an open-ended tenancy. It has no fixed-term period. There is the eradication of eviction with no grounds. Eviction proceedings are simplified to 18 statutory grounds and there has to be a reason—what are the grounds for eviction? There are extended notice periods and also a phased implementation. I think that is a key point. A lesson that the current Housing (Scotland) Bill is looking at is whether short assured and assured tenancies should actually just be terminated now because there has been long enough. There is still a good proportion of assured tenancies in existence—we estimate probably about 20%. Short assured tenancies are certainly less secure, so one lesson would be that if you are changing, do not do it over seven years; do not delay.

[Carla Denyer]

Q Since you are an expert on the Scottish system, I will make use of your expertise; I want to ask more about rent controls. In my understanding, when the Scottish Government initially brought in rent controls in tenancy, that was because that was all they had the power to do at the time—they brought it in using existing legislation, initially during the cost of living crisis triggered by the pandemic—and ultimately, that they might do something different. You mentioned the Bill going through at the moment. In your view, is there an inherent problem with rent controls, or could the problems that you described be remedied by having some kind of controls between, as well as within, tenancies?

Anna Evans: I think what we have concluded from all of the evidence is that the rent control has to be very carefully designed to avoid unintended consequences. It is above my pay grade to say what that design might be, but there could be a range of ways in which landlords try to get around rent control. We have seen examples of offers from tenants—I understand that your Bill will avoid wars between tenants, in terms of rent levels, but because of demand-supply imbalance, tenants do offer landlords higher rents to get properties. Evidence across different states shows that rent control efficacy is variable, so it has to be very carefully designed.

[Jerome Mayhew]

Q You mentioned unintended consequences, a topic that I have come back to repeatedly today. We heard evidence earlier that rents in Scotland have outpaced those in the rest of the United Kingdom quite considerably in, I think, the last five years. You mentioned the 2022 rent control legislation and the impact that that has had on rents. If you can strip that out in your own mind and give us an assessment of what impact rent reform has had on rents over the past seven years, can you give the Committee a flavour of whether rents have gone up as a result, stayed the same, or reduced?

Anna Evans: We show in the report that the rents increased at a similar rate to the rest of the UK until ’22. If you were trying to isolate why there was a more considerable increase since that time, you could probably fairly conclude that it was because of the 2022 legislation, but it is very difficult to isolate out. The range of legislation that has been implemented in Scotland is significant, but there was a tipping point in ’22 when rents in Scotland appear to have increased at a greater rate than in the UK. The key point was the 2022 legislation.

I should also caveat all of that—as we have in our report—by saying that the Scottish rent data is not as good. It is based on advertised rents rather than any survey of in-tenancy rents. The published data on rent levels and the hike in Scotland will be for new tenancies, and therefore, that will naturally be inflated compared with most tenancies, because we know that landlords do not tend to increase rents in tenancy. They prefer to keep them at a level that keeps tenants content and therefore they have a longer rental period. That evidence has to be considered with caution, because it is based on advertised rents.

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[Sam Carling]

Q It was about the point that quite a lot of students drop out of university, so there is an issue, on the flipside of some of the points you made before, about those students being locked in. Would you agree that this Bill addresses that?

Victoria Tolmie-Loverseed: Yes. I think a lot of landlords release tenants, certainly in the PBSA sector. If somebody leaves university or their circumstances change, I think a lot of landlords release tenants. I think it is right that if somebody leaves university, a landlord should seriously consider releasing them, perhaps with two months’ notice, and letting them leave. I think that would be a very good element of a student tenancy. Unipol is a landlord, and we release tenants if their circumstances have changed. It is a relatively small number of students who require that, but it is difficult. That would undoubtedly be an advantage to the students who need it.

[Carla Denyer]

Q I have a specific question on the new grounds for possession that we were just talking about. I interpreted the wording of the new ground that specifically gives the power to recover possession between June and September as potentially an oversight. One of the written statements we received—RRB 04, for Committee members—highlights that as well. The ground seems to fail to consider other kinds of students, such as people on a one-year Masters that starts in January, or nursing students who are often studying over the summer. I know, as I am friends with some of those people, that they found it hard enough to get housing on a non-traditional term as it was, without giving landlords a particular power to kick them out halfway through the summer when they are halfway through their course. Do you share that concern, and do you have suggestions for whether that should be changed?

Victoria Tolmie-Loverseed: There are significant numbers of students—I do not know the exact numbers, but more and more are starting with January start dates. Some universities have five points in the year when you can start a degree or a Masters. It is problematic for Masters students whose course goes on until September or October, when they are having to write up, or PhD students. That can be difficult. I think there should be more flexibility in the current timetable of June to September, and perhaps in the ability to give notice at different points in the year for student properties.

[The Chair]

I am afraid we do not have the flexibility to allow this question session to go on any further. Thank you very much for your attendance.

Examination of Witnesses

Melanie Leech, Suzannah Young and Timothy Douglas gave evidence.

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[Sam Carling]

Q Picking up on the point you made about illegal evictions, is there anything we can do with the landlord database to help with that and some of the other issues you raise?

Anny Cullum: I think the landlord database will be excellent. It is important from our point of view that the landlord database includes information for tenants on previous enforcement action that has been taken against landlords, because you can then make an informed choice as a tenant about where you would like to rent. That will be another way to deter landlords from behaving illegally because they know they will have a mark against their name on the register. We hope the register will mean that, rather than tenants trying to compete for homes at the moment, landlords are competing for tenants by behaving in a good way and providing a good service. Having that sort of information on the database would be incredibly helpful.

[Carla Denyer]

Q I want to ask about one of the things in your submission, so this may help you to expand on it. I thought your proposal on the right to withhold rent for serious disrepair is interesting: it sounds quite radical on the surface, but in any other sector, if one party was breaching a contract and failing to deliver a service, it would be quite normal to withhold payments. Can you expand at all on how that would work in practice or how you envisage it working? What are Acorn’s views on the proposed regime for managing unaffordable rent hikes, and is it enough?

Anny Cullum: On withholding rent for serious disrepair, there are much-improved schemes and action within the Bill around the decent homes standard and improving standards for tenants, but a lot of the action set out to be taken if tenants are experiencing disrepair is retroactive or down the line. We know that councils can take a long time to act and that lots of tenants will not pursue things like rent repayment orders because they just do not have the time and energy. But if someone is living with serious disrepair—things like the damp and mould laid out in Awaab’s law, which we are pleased to see moving over to the private rented sector—we think there could be a mechanism whereby, if it is not fixed within the timescale set out by Awaab’s law, they could withhold their rent and pay it to a third party, which could then give the landlord another timescale within which to solve it. If they did not solve it, the tenant would get the rent paid back. If they did, the landlord would get the rent.

That would be an immediate incentive to do the work and stop leaving people in the dangerous conditions we see all the time. Landlords are not necessarily going to worry in the moment about a rent repayment order that a tenant may or may not put in for, which would take ages to go through a court—landlords sometimes do not even pay them anyway—whereas, if you can withhold the rent, that will speed along the process of sorting out mouldy and unsafe homes. So that is the mechanism we would think of. There are lots of considerations as to how it could work. If you consult on bringing Awaab’s law into the private rented sector, that will be a good place to think about the best mechanism to do it.

I think your second question was about rent hikes—rent rises.

[Carla Denyer]

Q Yes—whether you think that the Bill goes far enough to prevent or manage unaffordable rent hikes.

Anny Cullum: Unfortunately, no. We as an organisation at the moment would never recommend that anyone go to the rent tribunal, because we have seen tenants go there and have more rent—a higher percentage—awarded than the landlord was asking for in the first place. We are pleased to see that you are going to get rid of that, but we would like to see rent rises capped at the lower of median wage growth over the last three years or inflation. From my experience, I know most tenants are not going to go to the tribunal. It is brilliant if they do, but a lot of people will accept the rise, or have to move out because they cannot afford it, or get into debt. This means that the people who do go to the tribunal will still be judged against market rents that are way more unaffordable than the one at which they went into their contract. Does that make sense? We are not going to bring rents down just by tinkering with the tribunal.

This is mainly about making sure that people can stay in their homes and it does not undermine the Government’s efforts to prevent no-fault evictions. This could easily be used as a no-fault eviction by the back door. You could just put the rent up to a level that you know your tenant cannot afford. We do not think comparing what is affordable with new prices is the best way, so we would advocate for that cap on how much rent could be increased by.

[Connor Naismith]

Q Helpfully, the question I wanted to ask has been answered, so I will just give you the opportunity to say anything that you have not been able to cover in other answers, but that you would like to see from the Bill.

Anny Cullum: As I said, the five areas that I wanted to cover were illegal evictions, landlord licensing, capping rent up front to one month, withholding rent for disrepair and making renting more affordable. We see even the cap on in-tenancy rent rises as not really about affordability, but mainly about preventing back-door economic evictions or section 21s. We feel that, while this Bill goes far on improving security for renters, it is not going to do enough to address one of the No. 1 problems our tenants and members are coming to us with every day, which is affordability. Rents are outstripping wages all the time. We would like to see the Government set up a commission to look into ways we can bring rents down and keep them affordable once and for all. That is something that we would like to see.

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[Claire Hazelgrove]

Q Is my hon. Friend certain that the Bill, as drafted, provides enough protections against huge advance rent requests?

Matthew Pennycook: It is a very good question, and we have touched on this issue, as well as guarantors. I am happy to give the Committee a sense of my thinking, because I have reflected further on the matter in the light of concerns that have been put to us by not only external stakeholders but several hon. Members in the Second Reading debate on 9 October.

As I made clear in that debate, the Government have long recognised that demands for extortionate rent in advance place a considerable financial strain on tenants and can exclude certain groups from renting altogether. We are very clear that the practice of landlords demanding large amounts of rent in advance must be prohibited. Although it might be argued that the interaction of the new rent periods in clause 1, which are a month or 28 days, and the existing provisions of the Tenant Fees Act 2019, relating to prohibited payments, provide a measure of protection against requests for large amounts of advance rent, I am increasingly of the view, speaking candidly, that there is a strong case for putting this matter beyond doubt. I am giving careful consideration as to how best that might be achieved in the course of the Bill’s passage.

[Carla Denyer]

Q One of the topics that has come up several times today is whether grounds for possession should all be discretionary, or whether some should be mandatory and some discretionary. I understand that, when the previous Renters (Reform) Bill was going through, you were in favour of them all being discretionary.

Matthew Pennycook: That is not correct.

[Carla Denyer]

Okay, then this is an invitation for you to talk us through your rationale, because that was my understanding. While I am at it, if there is anything where your mind has changed since the previous Bill, could you briefly talk us through why?

Matthew Pennycook: It is important to give context for the debates on the previous Bill and why, in certain circumstances, we were probing the Minister on making grounds discretionary rather than mandatory, and whether we were pressing the then Minister on additional protections for tenants relating to some of those grounds. The rationale for that was ensuring that the grounds, if they were mandatory, would not be abused. I suppose where my thinking has changed on many of them—I will continue to think on whether we have done enough on specific grounds for possession to protect tenants against abuse—is that the other actions we have taken in the Bill provide the protection we need.

I will give an example. On grounds 1 and 1A, where the previous protected period was smaller and the previous re-let period was much smaller—three months, not the 12 that we are proposing—in our view there was clear scope for abuse there. In many parts of the country, particularly hot rental markets—including London, and I am sure it is the same in Bristol—landlords are quite willing to suffer three-month void periods because the rents are so high. In a sense, if that is your re-let period on those mandatory grounds, you can get rid of what you consider a problem tenant, such as one who has complained perhaps entirely appropriately about damp, mould and other hazards. If you wait the three-month void period, then re-let, you have effectively recreated section 21 by the back door.

I think we have dealt with the abuse, which is from memory where we were probing the Minister about the discretionary or mandatory distinction. We have provided protections in other ways in the majority of cases. I am giving consideration, as I say, to some of the grounds and whether we have quite got sufficient protections in place. I think Justin Bates KC, for example, raised ground 6A, where action is rightly taken against the landlord whose practices need bearing down on, but the tenant should not suffer in that regard.

[Michael Wheeler]

Q I am sure the Minister will agree that we have heard some illuminating evidence today from excellent panellists. I am wondering what he sees as the key takeaways for the Bill.

Matthew Pennycook: I welcome that question; it is an open one, and I will have to think on my feet in my response. I think a number of the debates will run through the Bill. Supply is one of those. I am clear that we do not want an exodus of landlords from the sector, but I have seen absolutely no evidence of that. It is a threat that has been bandied about for many years now, ever since the previous Government announced their intention to abolish section 21 no-fault notices.

The size of the private rented sector has doubled since the early 2000s. There has been an outflux of smaller landlords, particularly overgeared buy-to-let landlords, which is mainly a result of the section 24 tax changes that George Osborne introduced in 2015, explicitly to slow the growth of the private rented sector. So there has been an exit of certain types of landlord from the sector, but we have certainly not seen an exodus.

The feedback I have had from landlords over recent months and in the previous Parliament is that the most damaging thing for many was the uncertainty about whether reform was coming through in any form. That is why we felt we needed to act quickly. In general, good landlords have absolutely nothing to fear from the new system. We think it provides a framework in which they can continue to invest and operate.

Another point that has been prevalent in the debate is protections for renters against unreasonable within-tenancy rent hikes. In designing the Bill, I have been clear where we have overhauled and strengthened its provisions to strike that balance. We do not want to do anything that could potentially make things much more difficult for tenants, which is why the Government are not advocating rent controls in the Bill. The Scottish experience is instructive of what can happen as an unintended consequence, and we think there would be an impact on supply, quality and standards, as evidence around the world shows.

In many cases there is a judgment call on students and other possession grounds, and it is is a fine balance as to whether we have got it right in the Bill. But there are competing pressures and disincentives in a system—I am being incredibly candid with the Committee here—that has not been overhauled for 30 years. Lots of the speculation about how the tribunal will operate, and how many section 8 cases will go there, is in some ways all completely speculative. We have a sense of what we want to see and how to address the risks, but until the system is properly bedded in, I do not think anyone will know what we have to do in the design to ensure that we have the balance right and will not therefore see the tribunal overwhelmed.

We want to see more people to go to the tribunal. We want section 8 cases to go through the courts more efficiently. We absolutely concede the need for court improvements, and we are working closely with the MOJ on those—I have given some examples in response to the question about what we are taking forward. There is a balance that needs to be struck, and I think we struck the right balance in overhauling the Bill in the specific ways we have, while keeping—I gave the Conservative party the credit for this at the time—the sensible provisions that were in the previous Bill, which we think need to remain at the core of the legislation.