Iraq Inquiry Report

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Thursday 14th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

That is a good question, but it is a question in retrospect. At the time, not only did the chief weapons inspector tell me, to my face—and tell the other members of the Defence Committee who met him in New York—that he thought that Saddam Hussein was intent on developing weapons of mass destruction, but I was then told by the Government—the British Government, my Government—that there was a possibility that he would be able to launch those lethal weapons at 45 minutes’ notice.

That brings me to my next point, which is, of course, that all this involved Dr David Kelly, and all the tragedy surrounding that poor chap, and the dodgy dossier. I believe that one of the things for which Mr Blair and the rest of the Government will have to account to the nation is what I consider to be the usurpation of the Joint Intelligence Committee by the Prime Minister’s spin doctor, Alastair Campbell. He was the man who was putting pressure on the Committee, led by Sir John Scarlett, to release enough information to produce—to coin a phrase—a “sexed-up” dossier to make the case as convincingly as possible, to us in the House and to the British people, that there was a real threat which we could not ignore and on which we had to take action.

I think that one of the lessons we have to learn now is that the Joint Intelligence Committee must be led by a man or woman with experience in security matters, and must not be subject to political pressure. Its professional view must be respected, and its authority must not be usurped.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I thank my very good friend for allowing me to intervene. I agree with every word that he has said so far, but one question has confused and really worried me, and I do not think we have had an answer to it yet. If there were no weapons of mass destruction—I am referring particularly to chemical weapons—what was it that killed the Kurds and the marsh Arabs? We have never found those. Where the heck did they go?

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

My hon. and gallant Friend has raised a very good question. I do not think that it will be the subject of my contribution to the debate, but I hope that he will be able to develop it if he is able to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I have set out the position of the Conservative Opposition at the time. We believed that it was imperative and urgent for an inquiry to be held. I have explained why I supported the war, and have described some of the shenanigans that went on in an attempt to persuade the British people that there was a justification for it. I think that the delay in the report’s publication has been wholly unacceptable, and I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden. Five years ago, Sir John said that it would take him a few months to prepare the final report; for five years those families have been having to wait, and have been held in limbo.

I agree that the Maxwellisation arrangement must be revisited. We cannot allow an open-ended opportunity for people who have been criticised in a draft report to respond to that criticism. There must be a time limit. As one who was deeply critical of the Saville report, which took 12 years and cost £200 million, I think that the country needs to start looking very carefully at how it conducts inquiries such as this.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I did not intend to speak, but I rise to do so because my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gravesham (Mr Holloway) has asked me to speak anecdotally, as he knows very well some of my experiences. My theme for the next couple of minutes is why I believe our senior military officers have become too politicised.

In April 1993, I took soldiers into the village of Ahmici in central Bosnia. I identified a massacre where at least 100 people had been killed and I decided that I had to inform the world—it was my duty under Geneva conventions. I decided that I would have a press conference where I would identify the people I thought were responsible—special forces of the Bosnian Croat army. Then I informed the Ministry of Defence. Of course, by my action I was kissing goodbye to a glorious military career—

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Opening up a new one.

[Bob Stewart]

Not for a while. When I returned to my base, I received a blistering telegram demanding to know how I had the authority to make such a statement. It said I was meant to be neutral and I was not to get involved in the war. I was later told that I had ordered my men to open fire in defence of themselves, that I was way out of line and that I very much risked being sacked immediately. That was rather depressing for me. However, as a result of that press conference, front pages in this country carried the story—it was in the news, on the television and on the radio—and the reaction from the public and from politicians, both Back-Bench Members of this House and Ministers, was unanimously supportive. The generals who had given me that severe wigging then sent another signal, totally ignoring the first one, saying that I had acted in the highest traditions of the British Army and I was to be congratulated. It was at this time that I thought perhaps our senior officers are too politically correct. Since then I have decided, as people who look at the Daily Mail and The Sun today will know, that political correctness is something I do not necessarily particularly agree with.

Defence Expenditure (NATO Target) Bill

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Friday 23rd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Chocks away!

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I thank my hon. Friend from the Army for reminding the House of my interest and experience in aviation.

I am genuinely delighted to open this important debate on defence spending and to introduce my Bill to give legal effect to the Government’s welcome commitment to meet the NATO target of spending 2% of gross domestic product on defence. It is an additional pleasure to do so as a former Defence Minister and the Member of Parliament for Aldershot, the home of the British Army, and for Farnborough, the birthplace of British aviation and the home of many of Britain’s finest and world-leading defence companies, whose contribution to our national security is invaluable.

It is also very good to see my hon. Friend the Minister for Defence Procurement, who is responsible for defence equipment and support. He is representing the Government today, but he is a very great friend of mine who is discharging his responsibilities with extraordinary dedication and professionalism.

By the same token, although I have not known the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) for as long, I had the pleasure of meeting her earlier this week and I warmly welcome her to her role as shadow Minister. She will find that it is one of the most exciting privileges in this place to have some responsibility for the management of the defence of our country and I wish her well as she seeks to hold the Government to account, as, of course, do we on the Government Benches, fulfilling our constitutional duty.

Before I address the detail of the Bill, I want to set out the context as I see it. I am sure that you will understand, Mr Speaker, but the full force of my argument in support of the Bill cannot be made without reference to the context. Since my right hon. Friends and I produced the strategic defence and security review of 2010 there has been a massive change in the international scene. In a nutshell, we live in an increasingly dangerous world. The turmoil created by the Arab spring, the Syrian uprising, the Libyan campaign, Russia’s illegal annexation of the Crimea, which itself followed the illegal annexation of a part of Georgia in 2008, and the rise of ISIL has transformed the international landscape, but that is not the end of it. The jury is out on Iran’s intentions and North Korea remains an utterly irresponsible dictatorship, determined to develop further weapons of mass destruction. The stand-off between India and Pakistan, both nuclear powers, from time to time threatens to destabilise that important region.

Most importantly, in this, the week of the state visit by the President of the People’s Republic of China, that country is causing concern not just to the Japanese but more widely across the region. As I reminded the House again on Monday, China has recently embarked on a relentless process of colonising uninhabited but disputed atolls in the South China sea, where it is building runways and port facilities. In May, US Defence Secretary Ash Carter prodded China on its continued rapid reclamation efforts, which have resulted in 2,000 acres of land that China claims as sovereign territory but that the United States refuses to recognise. Although China claims this as sovereign territory, many of the islands, including the Spratly islands—that is a wonderful name; I always like putting it on the record—are claimed by other regional powers.

The US Defence Secretary said in some prepared remarks in May that

“China is out of step with both the international rules and norms that underscore the Asia-Pacific’s security architecture, and the regional consensus that favors diplomacy and opposes coercion.”

He reinforced that message more recently when he said that the United States

“will fly, sail, and operate wherever the international law permits… at the times and places of our choosing”.

Last night’s news that TalkTalk had been subjected to a massive cyber-attack serves as a timely reminder of the ever-increasing threat to our security and our intellectual property from such attacks, often committed by criminals, but from time to time committed by nation states, including the People’s Republic of China.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend and of course I shall come on to that. As I explained at the outset, in order to explain why I believe this Bill is so important, it is critical to set out the international scene as I see it, for defence can be undertaken only in the context of an analysis of the threats we face. That is why a strategic—I emphasise strategic—defence and security review is under way at present. We could not cover the strategic element in the last SDSR because we had only five months in which to prepare, our having come into government in May 2010. That review was largely Treasury-driven and needed to be Treasury-driven. The present one is different.

[Bob Stewart]

On my hon. Friend’s comment about China and cyber-warfare, I am sure he knows as well as I do that China has a dedicated cyber-warfare division, which it exercises—it last did so, as far as I know, three years ago—and practises attacks against the west.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Indeed. My hon. and gallant Friend has come to my support, for I was about to say that it was our recognition of the significance of cyber-security that led us, when my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) was Secretary of State—I am sure he is in the Chamber—to identify cyber as what he called an up-arrow. At the time there did not appear to be a threat from Russia, so heavy armour became a down-arrow—that is, an area where we felt we could take a hit—but cyber was identified in 2010 as being one of the areas we needed to prioritise. That led us to earmark £650 million over five years to address that threat. As the then Secretary of State and now Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), revealed last year, some of those funds are being directed at the development by the UK of an offensive cyber capability, which I thoroughly support.

To give the House a bit of the flavour of what we are talking about in the cyber-attack context, The Times published an article on 10 September headed “Cyber criminals make Britain their top target”. A company had analysed 75 million raids on international businesses over three months. It showed that Britain was the criminals’ favourite country, followed by America. Online lenders and financial services are losing up to £2 billion a year to hackers stealing passwords and creating false accounts. The scale of the challenge is highlighted by the volume of attacks, with all those attempts being recorded between May and July this year alone.

Avro Vulcan XH558

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the end of service of the Avro Vulcan XH558.

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Gray. Oh no, you’re about to leave!

[Sir David Amess in the Chair]

I welcome you, Sir David, to the Chair. I also welcome my right hon. Friend the Minister. [Interruption.] It is only a matter of time before he is elevated to the Privy Council. I welcome my hon. Friend the Minister, with whom I shared some experiences at the weekend of which I will speak later, and his most excellent Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile).

I am grateful for the opportunity to place on record in the House the story of one of the most remarkable heritage projects of recent years. In doing so, I am extremely proud to declare my interest as a trustee of the Vulcan to the Sky trust and president of the British Air Display Association, which represents the interests of those who organise and participate in air shows across the country. Essentially, Vulcan bomber “X-ray Hotel five five eight”, as it is pronounced in the phonetic alphabet, which I shall use throughout the debate, last saw service in 1992, and 15 years later she was restored to flight by a band of highly professional volunteers. Since then she has dominated the air show circuit, drawing massive crowds everywhere she appears. Incredibly sadly, this display season looks like being her last, but of that, more later.

The Vulcan was the brainchild of aero-engineer Roy Chadwick, designer of the famous Lancaster bomber, immortalised through its role in “The Dam Busters”. Only 11 years separate the first flights of the Lancaster, in 1941, and the Vulcan, which was then led by Stuart Davies following Chadwick’s death in 1952. What an extraordinary testament to British aeronautical ingenuity. Designed as a high-level bomber to deliver Britain’s nuclear deterrent through the tense years of the cold war, before the deterrent became submarine-based in 1969, the Vulcan, of which 134 were delivered to the RAF, was only deployed once in anger. That was during the Falklands campaign when it, too, became immortalised in that amazing operation—Operation Black Buck—to bomb the runway at Port Stanley. It involved a 6,800 nautical mile round trip, lasting nearly 16 hours, with 18 air-to-air refuelling operations. Although the Army tend to be rather dismissive of the one bomb that landed in the middle of the runway—

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Objection!

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Objection not taken. I hope my hon. Friend is not seeking to intervene.

That bomb put the runway out of action. More importantly, it sent a clear message to Argentina that if we could pinpoint the runway in Port Stanley, we could rearrange Buenos Aires in a big way.

It is hardly surprising that with that pedigree, the public lamented the scrapping of the Vulcan fleet when, in 1992, XH558 made her last display flight in RAF service. A petition signed by more than 250,000 people calling on the Government to save her sparked a campaign that led to today’s feast of aeronautical brilliance. Sold for £25,000 in 1993, the aircraft was bought by C. Walton Ltd at Bruntingthorpe in Leicestershire. However, one man decided that the public should not be denied the chance to see XH558 take to the skies again. Step forward a nuclear physicist and IT company director, Dr Robert Pleming. In 1997, he and David Walton agreed to determine the feasibility of returning the aircraft to flight, based on sound management practice and a professional approach. Robert’s credibility won over the aircraft’s design authority, British Aerospace—now BAE Systems—which, in 1998, identified that Marshall Aerospace and Defence Group of Cambridge had the skills, capabilities, quality control and experience in one-off aircraft projects to satisfy the Civil Aviation Authority that the work required on XH558 would be done properly.

European Union Referendum Bill

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Tuesday 16th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I heard my hon. Friend’s intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Stone, and he makes a valid point that we need to address. However, the purpose of amendment 10 is crystal clear: it is to stop the European Commission getting involved or funding third parties to get involved in the campaign. If a company in his constituency that received support under a European Commission scheme five years ago, three years ago, last year or whenever chose to back one side or the other, one would not be able to say that it was doing so because it had received money from the European Commission, but if the European Commission started to fund organisations that were involved in the campaign, that would be unacceptable. We do not want it interfering.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Would it really matter, because surely both sides will get just about equal funding? Where the funding comes from does not matter in the end if both sides get the same rough amount.

Ukraine (UK Relations with Russia)

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Thursday 11th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point and it all militates in one simple direction: Mr Putin does not seem to care for international norms or that his country has in the past signed solemn and binding agreements. That is why we need to be on our guard.

We have the examples of Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, as well as Crimea. As I said in an intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon, I worry that Putin’s objective is to create a land link with Crimea—at the moment I believe there is a 5-mile gap across the Black sea. He has no intention of giving it up, so will he leave it as it is and reinforce it with air supplies or by sea? I believe there is a risk that he will go for Odessa, thereby denying the rest of Ukraine access to a port. If he moves further west he links up with Transnistria, leaving only a slight border between western Ukraine and Lviv, and around there with Poland, and the rest would be surrounded by Russia. He will then say to the EU, “There you are. You can have the rump of Ukraine,” and that will become isolated and perhaps not economically viable—I do not know. I do know, however, that we must be on our guard because Putin has acted with complete impunity—my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East made that point. But if you make threats and do not follow them up, what is your counterparty to suppose?

The question that I go on to ask myself is this. There is Kaliningrad, that small Russian enclave on the Baltic coast, which is separated from the Russian motherland by a narrow strip of land between Latvia and Lithuania. If Mr Putin can with impunity do what he has done so far, what is to stop him saying, “I need a land link with Kaliningrad”? Article 5 of course stands in his way, but when I ask my friends, “Would you be prepared for your son or daughter to be sent off to go and fight for the Lithuanians or Latvians in the event that Mr Putin decides to annexe their territory and create that land link with Kaliningrad?” I sense no appetite for that. The question is, “Where is the British national interest in that?” People do not understand the significance of article 5—even in this House, hon. Members have been far too flippant about considering offering NATO membership to other countries without considering the consequences.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South was absolutely right: the red line has to be the Baltic states. We must make that red line clear to Mr Putin. We must say, “Thus far and no further,” and it must be followed up. We saw what happened to President Obama when he drew a line in the sand that was promptly blown away by the wind.

[Bob Stewart]

I wanted to back up my hon. Friend on that point. The Baltic states are a red line, and I would support moves to permanently position some of our troops in those Baltic republics, because that is a clear indication of our intention—just as Berlin was, where I served for two years.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend, who brings immensely valuable personal experience to such discussions.

I have referred to the Baltic states, but I should like to emphasise the point that was made by, I believe, my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South about the penetration of UK airspace by Russia. The Russians are doing that with increasing regularity, but for what purpose? Are they coming to look at our beautiful countryside? Are they inspecting our beaches with a view to, perhaps, acquiring some land in the lovely parts of Norfolk or Lincolnshire, including the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough? What are they doing? What about the periscopes in the Irish sea? If anything demonstrates the folly of giving up our maritime patrol capability, it is the recent discussion about our dependence on a number of other countries to track Russian submarines.

By their deeds shall ye know them. Mr Putin’s deeds are clear for us all to see. We therefore ignore them at our peril. That is the danger. What do we do? My hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) is right: there are areas in which we have a common interest with Russia. We share the threat from Islamic fundamentalism—Russia is a Christian country. In the early part of the 20th century, there were great links between the Lancashire textile industry and Russia, and those links were developing, but that all came to an end with the arrival of the communist state.

I am pessimistic. I do not see how we can engage with Russia with all that Mr Putin’s history and his clear pattern of behaviour implies. We are in a difficult situation. It is perfectly clear that his economy is collapsing. He is doing like many in his condition do. We all remember President Galtieri of Argentina. He had troubles at home. What did he do? He went on a foreign excursion—he went for the Falkland Islands. We must bear in mind that, with the falling economy in Russia, there is a real risk that a policy of puffing up Russia’s status in the world through military action is enhancing Mr Putin’s standing with the Russian people.

Are sanctions a substitute for more robust action? Are we, by imposing these sanctions, helping to suppress the Russian economy? Perhaps we should be engaging in a little bit more gunboat diplomacy of the kind I have advocated a number of times in this House. I understand my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough, but I say to him that we cannot deal with a man with such an attitude and such behaviour, whose personal advertisements consist of him in martial positions, bare from the waste up with a bandolier around his shoulder and carrying a gun, or standing over some vanquished animal—you couldn’t make it up! That is what this guy is doing, and somehow we have to appeal to the Russian people and some of the younger politicians in Russia to get them to understand that this is not the way to behave. If we want security in Europe, we have to find a way forward, and invading other people’s sovereign territory is not the way to do it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Stewart]

I totally agree with my hon. and very good Friend. That was exactly my role as a young officer in West Berlin—a British tripwire—in case the then Soviet Union decided to take over.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Some tripwire!

[Bob Stewart]

I am afraid I totally agree—some tripwire indeed. A big stumbling block, although I was not quite as big then.

ISIL: Iraq and Syria

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Thursday 16th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

First, may I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend’s serious endeavours to get to grips with some very complex problems? He said that having boots on the ground was essential. To ask a crisp question, what are the prospects of getting the Iraqi army retrained—

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Or others.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Or others, as my hon. Friend says. It was a matter of extraordinary surprise, after the investment made by British and American troops in training the Iraqis, that they collapsed in the face of the enemy.

High Court Judgment (John Downey)

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Thursday 27th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, and, indeed, I understand the passion with which he makes it, and I spoke on BBC Radio Foyle saying I thought there was a covert deal. I merely refer to the written answers in 2002 to illustrate that there was evidence. I did not know about it even though I was a shadow Defence Minister at the time, but there was evidence that these matters were being discussed. Whether or not they should have been discussed is another matter. What is clear—this is where I agree with the hon. Gentleman—is that this arrangement appears to have been, and continues to be, entirely partial. In other words, it applies only to those believed to be responsible for republican terrorism, and a legitimate matter to which the Secretary of State needs to turn her attention is whether this arrangement, to which this Government have also clearly been party, is fit for purpose, in so far as it is partial.

I wish to continue my point, because I am conscious that lots of hon. Members wish to speak and I wish to discuss a particular aspect: the case of my constituents who were serving the Crown. Whatever the verdict of the Saville inquiry, these men were doing their level best to try to hold the ring to keep the peace, and on that day there was a distinction between them and the rest of the community—they were in the uniform of Her Majesty’s armed forces. They were clearly visible and they were identifiable. They faced a crowd and were confronted by armed men lurking in the shadows, indistinguishable from the civilian crowd. It is hugely important to differentiate between the cold-blooded, premeditated murder of the kind we saw so many times conducted by republican terrorists and loyalist terrorists, and the heat-of-the-battle mistakes made by members of Her Majesty’s armed forces. To the extent that we sent them there, we cannot absolve ourselves entirely of responsibility in these matters.

So I do make a distinction and I do pose the question to this House: are we to accept that these men who were doing their best—I accept the verdict of the Saville inquiry, difficult though I find it, having spoken to many of these guys—and their behaviour should be equated with that of Ivor Bell, who was accused a few days ago of aiding and abetting in the cold-blooded murder of Jean McConville, a mother of 10 and one of the disappeared? I submit that there is a substantial distinction between these crimes, and between these men and whoever was responsible for placing the bomb in Hyde park or the bombs in Guildford, Birmingham and elsewhere.

I lost a very close friend, murdered on his doorstep in north London—Ross McWhirter, of the “Guinness Book of Records”. He was shot down on his doorstep and lay dying in the arms of his wife. We on this side have lost a number of our colleagues, murdered by the IRA—in cold blood, by people indistinguishable from the rest of the community. So we are not untouched by these matters, but I do agree with everyone that we need to move forward.

Before concluding, I wish to contrast what I have just said about the cold-blooded, premeditated murders to which the terrorists were party and what the Prime Minister said in his statement:

“Those looking for premeditation, those looking for a plan, those even looking for a conspiracy involving senior politicians or senior members of the armed forces, will not find it in this report.”—[Official Report, 15 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 740.]

So whatever the mistakes—the failures—identified by Saville in his report on the activities of the Paras in Londonderry on 30 January 1972, there was no premeditation; this happened in the heat of battle. It is important that we recognise that we have a duty to the soldiers we sent there, and I think there is a case that natural justice needs to be brought to play in this matter. Surely it is not fair, 42 years on, nearly half a century later, that these men, who were doing their best, along with the 250,000 others who served in Northern Ireland, should still have this question mark hovering over them in the evening of their lives—

[Bob Stewart]

In their old age.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

In their old age, as my hon. and gallant Friend says.

I remind the House that we suffered in Aldershot, for on 22 February 1972 an IRA attack killed six civilians and one Roman Catholic padre, Padre Weston. It is true that one man was convicted—he served four years in prison and died in prison—but others were involved in that and they have never been brought to justice. I have not called for a public inquiry into what happened in Aldershot then and the bombing of the mess of the 16th Parachute Brigade, but if what is happening continues, there will be pressure on me to say, “Okay we had that inquiry into the events of 30 January 1972 in Londonderry, so what about having a public inquiry into what happened in Aldershot?” I do not think that would serve a purpose. So I do believe that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and the right hon. Member for Belfast North said, things in Northern Ireland have improved—its economy is growing and there is peace—and it is important that we look to the future.

Let me close by saying that I agree with the Prime Minister that we need to

“come together to close this painful chapter on Northern Ireland's troubled past.”—[Official Report, 15 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 742.]

Let us do that and, in order to do that, I would like the House to consider the point that those who served as servants of the Crown in Northern Ireland do deserve to live out their days without having the threat of prosecution lingering over them.

Interest Rate Swap Derivatives

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Thursday 24th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

I join everyone else in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb)—and also my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), whose banking career was much more distinguished than my own—on initiating this debate. I hope that the message will go out to the British people, and particularly to small businesses, that Parliament understands their grievances and is prepared to be robust in addressing them. We look to the Government to be equally robust in their response to the debate.

I want to raise the specific case of Pacer Marine, a boat business that provides chandlery services and sells day boats, rigid inflatable boats and the like. It is located just 10 minutes from junction 4 of the M3, so if any of my right hon. and hon. Friends would like to take advantage of that business, they should please do so. The principals of the business, Dennis Davis and his son Kevin, are constituents of the Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), but their business is located in my constituency. My right hon. Friend is as concerned about this matter as I am.

Pacer Marine moved in 2005. Mr Davis and his son had previously been renting premises, but they found a place to buy in Aldershot. They went to their bank for a normal commercial 25-year mortgage, but that was not available. Dennis Davis has described his discussions with NatWest:

“The bank were fairly aggressive from the start. Our 2 corporate managers came along to see us, then told us about the hedging/rate swap, and that they would only give us a ten year fixed mortgage with a further 5 years. We wanted a 20/25 year term. They charged us a greater rate than normal although we challenged them on it. The main reason for the hedge/swap was because, in their words, they said rates never go down. Well, as we all know now, they did. They then at another meeting introduced a third person who did the deed. Because of the position we were in we agreed to it, but we had always felt that we had been mugged.”

I have done an interest rate swap deal, so I know that they are extremely complex. One wonders what on earth the Royal Bank of Scotland was doing trying to present this sort of opportunity to a very small business.

The documentation provided by RBS is interesting. Part of the background it gave included this statement:

“Loan serviceability is tight…so there is a ‘condition of sanction’ that an interest rate management tool be put in place to protect you from variable base rate”.

Protecting interest rate liability is a perfectly sensible issue to discuss, but we should note that this was a condition of sanction. In a market update, the bank interestingly pointed to all the reasons why interest rates were unlikely to go down and more likely to go up, yet the memo acknowledged:

“There were mixed views from you on base: you saw the possibility of cuts of between half to 1%”.

The bank was recognising the concerns of the customer, but actually trying to make the case that the customer was likely to be wrong and that interest rates were more likely to go up so that the hedging proposal could be put to him.

The person involved was an employee of another part of RBS, so his interest was to make the most money for his unit by exploiting the uninitiated customer and flogging him business that he did not understand. I asked Mr Davis, “Why did you go into this? Did you consult a lawyer.” He responded by saying:

“We trusted the bank. Our business is boat chandlery, not financial wizardry. We thought we were getting the best advice from them. We never thought we would have to go to Peckham Market and deal with a bunch of Del Boys.”

That was how the people in the business felt about it.

Both my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey and I raised this issue with Stephen Hester in June 2012. Needless to say, we got some sort of reply from something called “Group Executive Office”, whoever those people are, but the matter remains unresolved to this day, notwithstanding the fact that when I visited my constituent at the end of August or the beginning of September, they were due to have a meeting with RBS to go through the process which, as many right hon. and hon. Members have mentioned, moves at a snail’s pace. Two months on, we are no further forward. This is an absolute disgrace. We have to be clear that although the banking system and the banking business are important to the prosperity of the United Kingdom, the banks have a lot to answer for.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I was really taken by what my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) said: perhaps the FCA should stop all repayments to banks until these problems are sorted out, certainly in specific cases. That might help the constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth).

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Several measures have been suggested during the debate and I hope that the Government will respond to them. I hope, too, that the FCA will respond more robustly than it has up to now.

My hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter) mentioned a meeting with Mr Chris Sullivan. Interestingly, he wrote to my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey:

“As a Group, we are committed to the fair and timely treatment of our customers”—

what a fantastic and admirable sentiment!

Maritime Surveillance

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Thursday 7th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

No, I will not withdraw it, but I will move on, because the issue is important and the hon. Gentleman and I often find common cause on it. It is important that the public understand, and that we remind them, what the challenges are. I am coming to a point that he will like.

The second reason why we had to cancel was financial exigency. We had to make some pretty difficult decisions in the Ministry of Defence. My argument is that extra funds should have been made available to ensure the continuation of a maritime patrol aircraft capability, even if it was not the Nimrod. I agree with all those who said that capability must be regenerated as soon as possible, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister will say something about what our friends and allies are doing to help us regenerate it in due course.

There are, of course, lots of options. Extreme Global Solutions has been to see me about an option involving the BAE 146, which could be done on a contractor-provided basis, and mention has been made of Hybrid Air Vehicles, which is doing a fantastic job and has won a $500 million order through Northrop Grumman in the United States. There are numerous options. We do not need to rely on the Nimrod, although I was one of those who could not watch aircraft being cut up on television. As an aviator, I find it hard to take, even though, as I said, the aircraft had not delivered what the company promised to deliver.

If we agree that it is a key capability that should be regenerated as soon as possible, and that there are various options that could deliver that regeneration, what stands in our way? What stands in our way—the whiteboard has been mentioned—is that there is currently no funding. I said to the Prime Minister on the day I was relieved of my responsibilities—he was kind enough to recommend that Her Majesty confer a knighthood on me, for which I am most grateful to him—that I had not met a Conservative in the country who believed that it was right to ring-fence overseas aid and cut defence.

I hope that the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife can agree on this. I do not like disagreeing with him; I am just not a fan of his friend.

[Bob Stewart]

I think you made that clear.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Good. I am so pleased.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Absolutely. This goes to the heart of the point that, as Conservatives, we are traditionally cautious about constitutional change, but that is not true of this Administration—sweeping Lords reform, a major change in the law of succession, and now this Bill are all to be rushed through on a timetable motion, subject to a three-line Whip. This is no way to treat Parliament or colleagues who have strong convictions either way on what is a very sensitive and important issue to all of us and our constituents.

Thirdly, if there is no mandate, where is the demand for this change? A poll in yesterday’s Daily Mail—okay, it was the Daily Mail, but still—found that only one in 14, or 7%, of those questioned thought that this should be a priority. Another poll found that more than 60% of the black and minority ethnic communities—the very people that the Conservative party is apparently out to woo—are hostile to it.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

The majority of the population do not seem to care very much about what we are talking about today, but the number of those in my constituency of Beckenham who do care and who have written to me in huge numbers saying, “Please oppose the Bill,” is far greater than the number of people who will rejoice if it is passed. Does my hon. Friend agree with that?

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Yes, I do agree with my hon. and gallant Friend. Overwhelmingly, the letters and e-mails that I have received from my constituents have asked me to oppose the Bill. The fact is that the public do not understand the full ramifications of the Bill and what will flow from it if it is passed.

Fourthly, there is already provision for civil partnerships, which provides most of the benefits of marriage to those in the gay community. Those of us who had reservations when the legislation on civil partnerships was introduced were reassured that it should not be seen as the forerunner of today’s Bill. Indeed, the noble Lord Filkin said in another place in 2004:

“I want to put our position very clearly. This is a new legal status that gives rights and responsibilities to people in same-sex committed relationships… We do not see it as analogous to marriage. We do not see it as a drift towards gay marriage.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 12 May 2004; Vol. 661, c. GC179.]

Clearly, those behind today’s proposal feel no sense of obligation arising from the clear assurances that were given 10 years ago. How can we be sure that this will be the end of the process and that there will not be more?

Fifthly—this point was alluded to by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) —what about the consequences? On education, the Department for Education states grandly:

“No teacher will be required to promote or endorse views which go against their beliefs.”

My right hon. Friend the Minister for Women and Equalities, who is doing a gallant job in difficult circumstances, said on the “Today” programme on 25 January that there would be “no requirement” on teachers to promote same-sex marriage. However, she added ominously that

“obviously we wouldn’t expect teachers to be offensive or discriminate in any way about anything.”

What guidance does that give to teachers in our country who have a profound objection to promoting anything other than traditional marriage? John Bowers QC, who defeated the Government over prisoner rights, has pointed out that there is no protection.

I am not a Tory moderniser, for I believe that marriage can only be between a man and a woman. I shall not surrender my principles. I believe that this Bill is wrong and that the consultation process was a complete sham. The Bill is opposed by the established Church and has caused deep and needless divisions within the Conservative party. There is no mandate for it and it has huge potential consequences, not least the prospect of endless legal challenge. The nation faces much more serious challenges that the Government need to address. I therefore hope and pray that this measure will be rejected, if not in this place, then in the other place.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Monday 20th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Howarth]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the question. It is important that we recognise that in the United Kingdom we are fortunate. We do not rely just on major defence companies such as Thales, BAE Systems and QinetiQ. We have a raft of medium-sized companies such as Cobham, Ultra, Chemring and Martin Baker, well known for its ejector seats, and those companies have a rich supply of high technology to offer other countries. I can assure my hon. Friend that we are working hard to promote those companies as well.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

However successful civil servants may be in trying to get defence exports, will the Minister reassure the House that they will not get bonuses in excess of what a colonel might make in salary every year?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Bob Stewart and Gerald Howarth

Monday 5th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

3. What recent progress has been made on the reform of NATO.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Gerald Howarth)]

In 2009, NATO agreed a series of measures to improve working practices in its headquarters in Brussels, and a new defence planning process better to help allies develop, acquire and maintain the capabilities required for the full range of NATO missions. Work to reform NATO’s resource management, rationalise its agencies and streamline its command structures is also under way, and should be agreed by the NATO summit in Lisbon in November.

[Bob Stewart]

Will the new structure that is in place in NATO be altered again so that we get better results from our operations out of area, particularly in Afghanistan?

[Mr Howarth]

My hon. and gallant Friend makes a very good point, and at the NATO Defence Ministers’ summit last month my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary made it clear that command structure reform is a key priority for the United Kingdom and for the alliance, because NATO’s structure is too big and static, and too much is simply not geared up for the missions that we are undertaking, such as in Afghanistan. The House might like to ponder on the fact that, significantly, NATO did not employ elements of its command structure in any meaningful capacity in Afghanistan; instead, it put together a bespoke operation.