Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Gerald Howarth Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

None that I am aware of.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend failed to answer the question put by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). Can she tell the House, and the people of this country, where she has a mandate to inflict this massive social and cultural change? It was not in our party’s manifesto, and the Prime Minister told Adam Boulton on Sky that he had no plans to introduce it. There are many major issues with which the country needs to deal. This is an irrelevance, and it should not be pursued through the House, least of all with a three-line Whip on a programme motion that gives us no real opportunity to debate it.

[Maria Miller]

My fellow Hampshire Member and I know that we disagree on this matter, but we do so in a very fair and even-handed manner, and I want to ensure that that fairness and even-handedness are present in all aspects of the Government’s policy. I think that there is an extremely strong argument for the Bill to be passed, and I am presenting it today. The purpose of parliamentary debates is to discuss such matters in more detail.

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[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

I first put on record my appreciation of the Coalition for Marriage, which has done a fantastic job in informing not only Members of this House, but the wider public about the issue.

I oppose the Bill for five key reasons. First, I believe it is simply wrong in principle. To overturn centuries of established custom requires a proper explanation beyond mouthing the equality mantra. What shaft of wisdom has suddenly alighted on my right hon. Friends that was denied their distinguished forebears? How come they think that they know better than the established Church? For the Chancellor, Home Secretary and Foreign Secretary today to pray in aid the argument that marriage “has evolved over time” is simply disingenuous. As the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Jim Dobbin) has pointed out, nothing like this has been proposed in Parliament ever before—this is a massive change.

This Bill deeply affects the core fabric of our society through the challenge it poses to the whole institution of marriage. Reference has been made to Spain, which introduced similar legislation in 2005 and where the overall marriage rate has fallen by 20%. Since all research shows that children raised in married households with a mother and father tend to fare better than those who are not, the Government threaten to damage the life chances of the nation’s children.

Secondly, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) and others have pointed out, neither the Prime Minister nor any other party leader has a mandate, because this was not in any party’s manifesto, let alone in the coalition agreement.

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has insisted on sticking to the 0.7% target for overseas aid on the grounds that he gave a commitment in 2009, and I respect him for that. He has stuck to that commitment, but not to the commitment to introduce tax breaks for married couples, and he has now invented a policy that he specifically ruled out at the last general election.

[Mr Chope]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we should have had, at the very least, a draft Bill and pre-legislative scrutiny?

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Absolutely. This goes to the heart of the point that, as Conservatives, we are traditionally cautious about constitutional change, but that is not true of this Administration—sweeping Lords reform, a major change in the law of succession, and now this Bill are all to be rushed through on a timetable motion, subject to a three-line Whip. This is no way to treat Parliament or colleagues who have strong convictions either way on what is a very sensitive and important issue to all of us and our constituents.

Thirdly, if there is no mandate, where is the demand for this change? A poll in yesterday’s Daily Mail—okay, it was the Daily Mail, but still—found that only one in 14, or 7%, of those questioned thought that this should be a priority. Another poll found that more than 60% of the black and minority ethnic communities—the very people that the Conservative party is apparently out to woo—are hostile to it.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

The majority of the population do not seem to care very much about what we are talking about today, but the number of those in my constituency of Beckenham who do care and who have written to me in huge numbers saying, “Please oppose the Bill,” is far greater than the number of people who will rejoice if it is passed. Does my hon. Friend agree with that?

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Yes, I do agree with my hon. and gallant Friend. Overwhelmingly, the letters and e-mails that I have received from my constituents have asked me to oppose the Bill. The fact is that the public do not understand the full ramifications of the Bill and what will flow from it if it is passed.

Fourthly, there is already provision for civil partnerships, which provides most of the benefits of marriage to those in the gay community. Those of us who had reservations when the legislation on civil partnerships was introduced were reassured that it should not be seen as the forerunner of today’s Bill. Indeed, the noble Lord Filkin said in another place in 2004:

“I want to put our position very clearly. This is a new legal status that gives rights and responsibilities to people in same-sex committed relationships… We do not see it as analogous to marriage. We do not see it as a drift towards gay marriage.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 12 May 2004; Vol. 661, c. GC179.]

Clearly, those behind today’s proposal feel no sense of obligation arising from the clear assurances that were given 10 years ago. How can we be sure that this will be the end of the process and that there will not be more?

Fifthly—this point was alluded to by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) —what about the consequences? On education, the Department for Education states grandly:

“No teacher will be required to promote or endorse views which go against their beliefs.”

My right hon. Friend the Minister for Women and Equalities, who is doing a gallant job in difficult circumstances, said on the “Today” programme on 25 January that there would be “no requirement” on teachers to promote same-sex marriage. However, she added ominously that

“obviously we wouldn’t expect teachers to be offensive or discriminate in any way about anything.”

What guidance does that give to teachers in our country who have a profound objection to promoting anything other than traditional marriage? John Bowers QC, who defeated the Government over prisoner rights, has pointed out that there is no protection.

I am not a Tory moderniser, for I believe that marriage can only be between a man and a woman. I shall not surrender my principles. I believe that this Bill is wrong and that the consultation process was a complete sham. The Bill is opposed by the established Church and has caused deep and needless divisions within the Conservative party. There is no mandate for it and it has huge potential consequences, not least the prospect of endless legal challenge. The nation faces much more serious challenges that the Government need to address. I therefore hope and pray that this measure will be rejected, if not in this place, then in the other place.

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[Mr Chope]

I cannot answer for my hon. Friend’s constituents but I know that my constituency has the highest proportion of elderly constituents in the country and I put that on the record.

These proposals were not in our manifesto, they are not in the coalition agreement, and the Prime Minister expressly ruled them out three days before the general election. In 2004 I was a member of the Civil Partnership Bill Committee and I led 89 Divisions in that Committee. I argued then, as I argue now, that we should give a status to civil partnerships that is the same for men and women.

During the debate, a number of hon. Members from across the House have said that civil partnerships should be extended to heterosexuals as well as homosexuals. I raised that with the Prime Minister at a meeting the best part of two years ago and he told me that he is against—he put it like this—“all marriage-lite arrangements”. If that remains his view, it is not reflected in the Bill before the House. The logic of that view is that we should exclude civil partnerships, and that the Bill should be amended to delete them in the future, while obviously allowing existing civil partnerships to continue. The alternative is to allow civil partnerships for relationships between men and women. If we allow civil partnerships for everybody, the Bill is not so likely to be challenged in the European Court of Human Rights. If civil partnerships are available only to same-sex couples, yet at the same time those couples are given access to marriage, we will not be able to argue a case in the European Court of Human Rights against that proposition.

We should be discussing the Bill in detail in Committee and submitting it to pre-legislative scrutiny. That is why I shall vote against the timetable motion and the carry-over motion. It is an obscenity that the Government persuaded the House to introduce carry-over motions as a standard form of the Standing Orders on the basis that we would be able to carry over Bills that had been first introduced in draft form, subject to pre-legislative scrutiny, and then brought forward as a proper Bill. Having made no mention of this Bill in their manifesto, and without a draft Bill or even pre-legislative scrutiny, the Government are trying to push this Bill through quickly because they see it as embarrassing.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

Does my hon. Friend also think it is outrageous that the Committee stage is not being taken on the Floor of the House? Any measure of this controversy and sensitivity should be discussed on the Floor of the House.

[Mr Chope]

Absolutely, and we should have had two days for the Second Reading debate. I am at odds with the Prime Minister on this issue, but there is no reason why we should be at odds on issues of procedure and process. If the Prime Minister is interested in the primacy of this Chamber and does not want all our legislation to go in piecemeal form to the other place, why will he not agree to a longer discussion on this Bill?

The Bill could be introduced as a fresh Bill at the beginning of the next Session, and the time between now and then could be spent on proper scrutiny. For example, we have not heard from the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which gave important advice to those who debated the Civil Partnerships Act 2004, or from other Select Committees, because the Bill is being rushed through. I hope the consequence is that the other place gives the Bill a pretty bloody nose.

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[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson)]

By our calculations, there have been more than 70 speeches this afternoon. This has been a lively and impassioned debate, and one that has shown this House at its best. It has demonstrated how deeply Members from all parts of the House feel about this issue. I hope that we will continue to respect those differences as the Bill moves on to the Committee and Report stages.

This is a Bill with a straightforward proposition at its heart—whether extending marriage to same-sex couples strengthens marriage and increases equality, or whether it is a threat to religion and society. The Government believe that the former is the case. I believe, as my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) said, that this is a Bill whose time has come.

In the limited time available to me, I will try to deal briefly with the main issues that have been raised. Time for interventions will be limited. My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) asked whether the Government would be willing to look again at clause 11(5). We are happy to discuss that provision again with the Church of England. Doubtless it will also be discussed in Committee.

My hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) asked whether we would look at matters with an open mind in Committee and on Report. We will, but any matters that are raised must be within the scope of the Bill.

The right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) asked about the position of the Church of England. In its briefing, the Church of England said that it is essential that the various locks in the Bill are preserved, as drafted. That point was also raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan).

The right hon. Member for Exeter also asked about the position of a clergyman who wishes to marry a same-sex couple in another building. A Church of England clergyman could not marry a same-sex couple according to Church of England rites, because he would need the approval of the governing authority of his church and he and the premises would need to be licensed. It is unlikely that those three criteria would all be fulfilled.

One of the Members from Northern Ireland—I am sorry, I forget which one—asked whether marriage courses run by Churches would be affected by the Bill. The answer is no. There are existing protections in the Equality Act 2010, which ensures that non-commercial religious organisations can restrict their services on the basis of sexual orientation.

A number of Members asked about the legal position in Denmark. It is very simple: when same-sex marriage was introduced in Denmark, the legislation required the established Church to conduct such ceremonies. That is fundamentally different from the position in this country. That is not the approach we are taking with this legislation.

Finally, we were asked about polygamy. The case in Brazil that my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) cited involved a legal marriage of three people in a civil union, so it does not apply.

In conclusion, as I said at the beginning, this has been a good and lively debate, during which all sides have had an opportunity to place their arguments on the record. We will continue to examine the Bill in detail in Committee, as the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) said, starting with detailed evidence sessions next week.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

My hon. Friend says that this has been a lively and passionate debate. Would the Government consider taking the Committee stage on the Floor of the House, so that some of those who have not been able to speak today, along with others, can have a chance to question the Minister on the detail of the Bill?

[Hugh Robertson]

I entirely understand my hon. Friend’s point. There is a procedural issue, which is that many of the Churches and people who wish to give detailed evidence in the evidence sessions have asked us not to do what he suggests. If we took the Committee stage entirely on the Floor of the House, we would have to forgo the opportunity for them to appear before the Committee in detailed evidence sessions. It is precisely to protect the ability of the many religious groups that wish to give evidence in person that we have been unable to do as he suggests.