Trade Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Bill Esterson and Craig Whittaker

Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Bill Esterson]

Q George Peretz, you were talking before about the Trade Remedies Authority. Can I bring you back to that? I believe that the Government are conducting a review into which trade offensive measures can be rolled over or passed forward—having heard that last piece of evidence, I am not sure what description to use. Can you describe the challenges and the consequences if some of those are not used by us when we are outside the EU?

George Peretz: Not all WTO law is clear, but what is pretty clear is that we could not simply automatically carry over existing trade remedies imposed by the EU and say, “These remedies will apply to the UK now that it is a separate WTO jurisdiction”—if I can use that term loosely. We cannot do that for one very simply reason: it is a condition of all trade remedies that there is a domestic injury. A domestic injury is defined, and the UK is obviously not the same as the EU. It is potentially an issue that applies the other way around, incidentally, but that it a problem for the EU rather than for us.

As far as I understand it, the Department for International Trade is feeling its way to dealing with this problem. As a first step, it is asking industries that benefit from an existing trade remedy to set out why they think it should continue and to explain what the domestic injury is. There is probably also a need for the UK to discuss with the European Commission what the position is. After all, in its investigation of all these remedies, the Commission will have built up a case file that will include quite a lot of information about what the injury is, some of which will be pinned down geographically. It will be able to say that that is evidence of an injury in the UK. Perhaps that could be used to justify carrying on the remedy after we have left the EU, but it would have to be the judgment of the new Trade Remedies Authority whether that evidence was good enough to withstand domestic scrutiny and appeals and, ultimately, a possible WTO challenge. There is a very difficult set of issues there, which will be a challenge for DIT and the TRA.

[Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)]

Q I want to go back to the scrutiny of the Bill. My understanding of what some people call the Henry VIII powers, for an SI or a DL, is that there is provision in both of those processes, whether they are negative or affirmative, to raise an objection for debate on the Floor of the House of Commons. My question is where is that process flawed?

George Peretz: I do not claim to be a great expert in parliamentary procedure, and I am not sure that I can add very much to what Brigid Fowler said about that—she is an expert on parliamentary procedure.

Plainly, there is an opportunity to challenge a statutory instrument that uses the negative resolution procedure, but clearly it is less likely to be challenged—just look at the statistics—than a piece of primary legislation, because one fundamental point about any statutory instrument is that the vote is simply an all-or-nothing vote on the instrument. There is no ability to have the primary legislation to say, “We agree with most of this clause but we don’t like clause 5, therefore we would like to amend that.” It is take-it-or-leave-it. The problem with a lot of this is that you will be told that the clock is running and you need to decide very quickly what to do.

Professor Winters: There is very little time, so be realistic about what the cost of a challenge would be and the pressures that that would generate.

Michael Clancy: It is the balance between speed and scrutiny—that is the whole point. To get that right is quite difficult with a negative or indeed an affirmative resolution procedure. Although theoretically each of these could be debated, I think it would be very difficult to get each of these debated. There simply is not enough time to do that—we are told that there are between 800 and 1,000 orders in relation to the EUWB. I do not know how many of them might be here—63 existing trade treaties, maybe more, and other things as well. That is the difficulty.

What are the defects? The defects are that we have an alternative procedure of super-affirmative if we need extra time to look at something—that is where the sift comes in. If the sift identifies a particular order as being important, it might then get better scrutiny, and better scrutiny might mean the affirmative resolution procedure on a super-affirmative basis. We do not know that the sift applies to these orders because the sift is not mentioned in this Bill. Will it be? Are you going to propose amendments? Is the Government going to take that forward to this Bill? That is another story for another day perhaps.

Then there is the issue—I think it is in one of the Hansard Society papers—of the difficulty, in fact the incapability, of amending these orders. They have to be taken back by the Minister and re-presented. That induces time and delay, and we are running out time and inducing delay.

Young People in Care

Debate between Bill Esterson and Craig Whittaker

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Craig Whittaker]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. He raises some valuable points, particularly on the turnover of staff in residential homes. The point is that a lot of young people in residential homes have a stigma attached to them. Not only that, quite often a foster placement has broken down. One could argue quite easily that they are the more vulnerable of our children in care. That being the case, to turf them out by themselves at the age of 18, often with very little support, is not the way forward. That will not be the case for all young people in residential homes—of course not. Some will be robust enough to take that step. For those who choose to stay, we feel strongly that that option should be open.

[Bill Esterson]

One challenge in residential and in foster care of “Staying Put” is that it leaves fewer places for other children to enter the care system. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the very big challenges in foster care is to find more foster carers, and in residential care, as the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) pointed out, it is to find staff who will stay long-term so that we have a more experienced, quality work force?

[Craig Whittaker]

Of course the hon. Gentleman has a point, but it does not make sense to allow young people in foster care to stay on until the age of 21, but exclude the 9% in residential care homes—the most vulnerable young people—particularly given that the 91% are arguably the ones clogging up the system.

The scoping exercise discussed four options, and the results were interesting: 25% of the young people preferred option 1—care leavers live in the same children’s home until they are 21; 13% preferred option 2—care leavers live in a separate building but in the same grounds as the children’s home; another 13% preferred option 3, which was like supported lodgings—care leavers live in a different house and need to be at least 16; and 25% preferred option 4, the staying close agenda—care leavers live independently in their own flat down the road or close to the children’s centre, and they have a key worker. It was clear from the scoping exercise that young children in residential homes would prefer those types of options.

The cost of extending those four options to all children—if we do it for one group, surely we must do it for all young people in care—would be about £75 million a year. It is not a small sum by any stretch of the imagination, but the cost of not giving any such option, particularly to residential care leavers, is many times that amount, and let us not forget the 23% who end up in our penal system, the cost of NEETs, drugs, crime, mental ill health, homelessness—to name just a few aspects.

The scoping exercise made several recommendations, and here are three of them: that the Department for Education develop plans for a new overarching duty of continuing wide-ranging support up to the age of 21 for all young people leaving care and, in doing so, draw on the learning of the Scottish reforms; that Ofsted work with stakeholders to clarify the ability of children’s homes to maintain registration when they routinely cater for young people over 18 and how children’s homes’ provision of accommodation and support for young people over 18 will impact on the inspections process; and that the Department for Education and the Department for Communities and Local Government review the option of extending regulation to a wider range of support and accommodation options for young people.

To summarise, may I ask the Minister when young people in residential homes can expect the Government to remove the discrimination and unfairness in the system and provide a range of options to all young people leaving care, as recommended by the scoping activity, and when he is likely to respond to that exercise?

Staying Put Agenda

Debate between Bill Esterson and Craig Whittaker

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Craig Whittaker]

I agree absolutely with the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend, who has had massive experience in this field over the years and has worked tirelessly for young people. The solutions sought for these young people need to be diverse, but long-term planning for residential care is, without question, vital.

The problem with allowing the amendment just for those in foster care is that it leads to inequalities and discrimination within the system, creating a two-tier system for these vulnerable young people. It does not include young people in residential care, so the state just washes its hands of children anywhere between the ages of 16 and 18 and cuts them free without any support in the big wide world. I have even heard stories of young people being sent back to their birth families just a few days before their 16th birthday, so the local authority no longer has to support them.

As chair of the all-party parliamentary group on looked-after children and care leavers—a post held that the Minister held before me, so he has had massive experience with the APPG—I have been inundated with stories of young people feeling that the state is yet again letting them down because of the inequality and discrimination being created. In this particular case, however, I have noted a real anger coming from those young people in residential care—an anger that I feel is justified. The brilliant campaign led by the “Every Child Leaving Care Matters” team has in less than a month secured 5,000 signatures for the petition from care leavers to change the Government’s mind, and this has been backed by academics and charities from all over the nation. Five thousand young people cannot be wrong: they are angry about their exclusion, and as one young man said to me, “We are being stitched up yet again.”

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate and on agreeing with the intervention by the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). I suggest that the long-term objective might be to treat children—whether they be in foster care or residential care—as if they were our own children, which is supposed to be the situation now. That implies a much more flexible and longer-term view of how long these children should stay with their parents.

[Craig Whittaker]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I believe that nowadays the average age of young adults who live at home with their parents is 26 or 27, so why on earth should we cut these young people off all of a sudden when they turn 18, and send them off to fend for themselves? It just does not seem right.

I would argue, as would many others, that young people in residential care are the most vulnerable of all. The majority have been through the fostering system, and have found themselves in placements that break down. The average number of placements for each child in the care system is seven, and the figure is generally much higher for those in residential care. Ben Ashcroft, who is a care leaver, had a total of 37 placements, and wrote a book about his experiences called “51 Moves”.