Trade Bill (First sitting)

Bill Esterson Excerpts

Tuesday 16th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Thank you. Can I ask the Committee to put its questions, starting with the shadow Minister?

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Q Good morning, Allie and Jonathan. Thank you for giving evidence to us. Neither of you mentioned the first clause, on the Government procurement agreement. Will you both comment on the opportunities your members see? That is something the Government have been very keen on, in speeches given by the Minister and the previous Secretary of State. What opportunities are there, given the provisions in the Bill, for the Government procurement agreement, and what else is needed for your members to make the most of those provisions? I will come back to further questions after we have an answer to that.

[The Chair]

Either of the witnesses can go first. Allie?

Allie Renison: Further to my counterpart’s evidence, in terms of discussing the agreement with businesses, there was some interest in it when there were developments in and around it, when the UK was seeking to accede to it in its own right six or 12 months ago. There was lots of interest in understanding what it actually meant. But, all in all, in so far as the purpose of it is to maintain a level playing field—unfortunately, the notion of a level playing field, and the importance of it in many areas of business, has been soured somewhat by some of the discussions and the context in the EU negotiations—having a level playing field and allowing people to bid on that level playing field, when it comes to Government procurement, is very important. Also, when it comes to future trade agreements, it is an important starting point.

At a time when the global trading system is being called into question by some very fundamental players on key aspects of it, including in some press reports over the last six to 12 months since the Government procurement agreement, it is really important that the UK puts down a marker and says that it wants to be part of this rules-based trading system. It is very important from a continuity perspective and as a marker in the sand in the UK’s international trade obligation commitment.

[The Chair]

Thank you. Can I ask Stewart Hosie—

[Bill Esterson]

Q Can we have an answer from Jonathan Brenton as well to the same question?

Jonathan Brenton: I agree with what Allie just said on the importance of a level playing field and the important signal that it sends about the UK in a global trading system that is clearly under strain. I can quote the figures given at the time that the UK signed this. The size of the global market is £1.3 trillion. We are talking about the 19 signatory states—major trading partners such as the US, Canada, the EU and Japan.

There are agreements—they exist, and it is absolutely vital to sign them. Making them work and obtaining market access is not always the same as securing or signing an agreement. The most obvious example would be the United States, where many states have not ratified GPA. There is a very big procurement market in the US at state level, which we have asked the UK to look at and push for in the context of a US trade deal. Allie will know better than I do that opening up state-level access in the US is not that easy. There are also major markets such as Mexico that have not signed up to the GPA. So it is absolutely right that we should do this, but it is one step on the route to a fully transparent market in Government procurements across major markets.

[Bill Esterson]

Q Can I ask one follow-up? Jonathan, you mentioned improving market access. What would your members want to see to achieve that improved access?

Jonathan Brenton: That is quite a big question. However, as a general principle, trade is more than trade deals. There are markets where the UK is focused on getting new global trade deals—the US, Australia, Japan and so on, although Japan is doing a kind of roll-over deal, but certainly Australia, New Zealand and the US. There are also markets where a trade deal is more of a long-term aspiration, because of the—[Inaudible]—of the UK in signing deals, and also the readiness of those countries to do deals. India and China would be examples.

There, what I think our members are looking for is for the UK to continue and step up its existing work through, say, the economic and financial dialogue in the JETCO—the joint economic trade commission—with both countries, to put on the table those issues that are important for business, and to do that in a way that matches what the UK wants with what the host country also wants, because I think this has to be win-win. In tandem with trade deals, we also want a push on market access, with the information coming from business being a part of UK strategy. I am simplifying it a bit, because I suspect in the case of the US that it will be a mixture of the two, and that, as and when we sign a US trade deal, there will still be work on the state level. I think it will take a long time to get the access we probably want.

Allie Renison: Can I follow that up? Can I just add a note on the US market? When it comes to a level playing field, the UK probably has a much more level playing field for its own internal market. That is largely, I would say, in some respects, because of single market legislation, which allows that level playing field not only in the UK but across all of the constituent parts of the EU.

By contrast, the US, and particularly Canada, do not have that kind of consolidated internal market. As was alluded to, there are differences at the state level. There have been very limited attempts to try to rectify that for trade agreements, when it comes to the US. I think there have been some studies in the past showing that despite the lack of, for want of a better word, “noise” around the closed aspect of some of the US procurement markets—those at a federal, state and even municipal, or county or local government, level—it is a bit more overt in some respects. When it comes to the actual implementation, some of the disruption, or patchwork approach, to determine access in other EU countries, on paper it is the same, but in practice it is sometimes different. I think that US can sometimes get a bad reputation for this, because it is a bit more overt.

In the context of trade agreements, I would say that, in terms of most of the work that is done to deal with the existing legislation around Buy America, which is the obligation that the US, at multiple levels of government, requires certain thresholds for suppliers to meet from a US origin point of view, they can get wavers for that at the federal level for trade agreements; they are not very common at the state level. Very often, I think that trade agreements are seen as an opportunity to start the conversation rather than necessarily unlock state-level market access.

[Bill Esterson]

Q Allie, you just mentioned the Buy America programme. What are your members looking for? Are you looking for something similar here, or are you looking for some way of getting round that kind of approach in the United States, or indeed in other countries?

Allie Renison: If you were to compare approaches, obviously there was some discussion about having a Buy European agenda, which was under the campaign platform of Emmanuel Macron when he was campaigning to be President. However, that really did not get much traction, effectively because of the EU’s own rules around competition and state aid, and it was also seen as not necessarily wanting to compete with the US, and the current Administration, in that respect.

I do not think it is a big priority, in that it would depend on what the structures underpinning it would be. In a coronavirus world, countries and industries will probably want to hold on and fight for every piece of market share, in particular, but I do not think that that should be seen as an opportunity to try and make it harder for other countries to access our internal market, simply because we have a lot of members who do that reciprocally in other countries. We find that with the exports of a lot of companies working in manufacturing and heavy industry, specifically from a goods and services perspective. You can think back to the classic example of Rolls-Royce, which initially began manufacturing engines and then decided, just with a couple of engines, to—[Inaudible]—services. That is how it really gained its edge in the marketplace.

If you think of it from that perspective, that is an important feature of what British manufacturing brings to other parts of the world. To have that reciprocity closed off—because our members are so internationally oriented, compared to the average, I would say that that is a bigger a priority. We have a very low share of members who are looking at Brexit as an opportunity to reshore or bring back manufacturing, so to speak. Even the data that we have seen so far shows that there is much more of an indication, from an industry perspective, of diversifying in other markets rather than trying to onshore operations. I would not think that that is a big priority for our members.

I would distinguish that, however, from the Government’s general approach to foreign takeovers and investments, meaning there is some difference there, but when it comes down to procurement access, most of our members do not see Brexit as an opportunity to try to have us buy British, so to speak.

[The Chair]

I will move on to Andrew Griffith and to Stewart Hosie. I remind witnesses to speak slowly, because the sound quality is not brilliant in the Committee Room. We are struggling to hear you. It would be very helpful if you could speak slowly and speak up.

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[The Chair]

It ended so suddenly that I thought the line had gone again, but thankfully not.

[Bill Esterson]

Q Turning to how the scrutiny of these agreements, and of agreements more generally, works, we have the expert trade advisory groups. I believe that your organisations are part of both the strategic and the sector-based groups; perhaps you could confirm that. Can you say how effective those groups have been so far on the continuity agreements, and on the new agreements as well? Do you have any comments on how you might like things to change to maximise the benefits of your involvement for scrutiny?

Jonathan Brenton: It is very important that I put on record, first, that the CBI is a member of both the Strategic Trade Advisory Group and the expert trade advisory groups, in terms of our personnel, and our members are also active on the ETAGs. We strongly welcomed the STAG and the ETAGs. As an organisation, we called for such a system in a letter to the previous Secretary of State, Liam Fox, in 2017. I think the first reaction of our members to any review of the ETAGs would be: “Keep them.” We have appreciated the insights that we have had through the ETAGs, on which a colleague of mine sits, regarding the continuity of trade deals.

Where could the system be made better? We have said to the Department for International Trade that we could have more transparency around membership. When we talk to members about ETAGs, one of the most common asks that we get is: “How can we be on one? Who is on the ETAGs?” An ask that we have had, which we hope will be fulfilled, is that the membership of the ETAGs should be published and there should be a transparent membership application process—as there has been for the STAG, the membership of which is published.

There also needs to be a clearer relationship between the STAG and the ETAGs. How does the STAG interlink? There could also be greater clarity about the role when it comes to negotiations. I should say, in terms of how the process is working, that when a negotiation has been launched, as is the case with the US and with Japan, there have been efforts by the DIT to brief the members of the STAG and the ETAGs. There have been short written records of the negotiations. We also know that there has been informal contact between business and DIT negotiators with specific questions related to the negotiations.

We welcome the system. It needs to be better, and it is really important that we understand that it is win-win. We see our role in business as giving negotiators the information that helps them to get the best possible deal for Britain. It should be possible to tweak the system to put the UK in the best possible position against its partners. If the US and the EU have a system in place, we should aim to match that.

Allie Renison: I will add briefly that the Institute of Directors is not part of the official main STAG, but it sits on several ETAGs. I echo much of what my counterpart said. I add one caveat: in respect of the continuity process, there are certainly lessons that we have drawn for the future. This does not just go to all the ETAGs and STAG. The DIT has done a fairly good job of setting them up and trying to ensure that business groups feel that they are part of the engagement process. We would like to have seen that to the same extent for the EU negotiations, because that is where there is the biggest potential for change coming out of trade agreements, compared with the other ones.

On the continuity process, we would have benefited from greater clarity early on about what was and was not going to be possible. If the Government had made it clear at the time that it was going to be impossible to roll over the Turkish customs agreement and why—keeping in mind that much of the roll-over, in so far as we can roll over what we have with Turkey, is linked to our relationship with the EU—we would have benefited all round from a lot more clarity early on in the process. The Government could have said that, based on the kind of relationship that the UK was seeking with the EU, it had not been possible to roll this over. Everyone understood that to be the case at the end of the process, but it could have been a lot clearer to businesses at the beginning, particularly for some of the fundamental ones.

From a preparation perspective—this goes to the heart of how ETAGs can certainly improve on what they have today—you need to make sure that you do not have a system whereby communication is so tightly controlled that you cannot go back and engage with members on the content of what you are discussing on policy. That is a very important addition to make one aware of: there is a balance to be struck between the Government having commercial sensitivities affected and making sure that, in this dialogue with business and stakeholders, we are able to actually have those conversations with members and that we are not overly restricted in doing that.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

Q I just wanted to pick up on the Trade Remedies Authority and your views on the provisions in the Bill, the role of that body, how it is made up and how it represents the interests of various stakeholders, whether they are sectors, regions, civil liberties groups or whatever. Can you give us some thoughts on that, and on the appointment of its chief exec or chair?

Jonathan Brenton: Business and industry called for the Trade Remedies Authority. We welcome it; it is obviously essential. It is not an area that gets as much attention as perhaps it should do in trade policy. We have been told that the non-executive TRA board members will act to provide us with decisions that will be made in a fair manner. We have been told that they will be experts in trade, but they will not have any ideological bias. It is no surprise to you that some of our members would like to see provision for industry practitioners—not just business, but also trade unions, particularly for the manufacturing sector—to be involved in the TRA. First, they would bring their experience, and, secondly, it would be a matter of building confidence. Consensus is a really important principle in trade. It is a big, historic change for the UK to have its own independent trade policy, and we would like to think that it was built on a wide area of consultation, so that people feel involved.

Thinking about some of the other things that might be done to the TRA, it might be useful if the TRA was required, in its annual report, to review how it is acting compared with its peers: the EU and the US. That is a good principle for the UK and trade policy. There is no reason why the UK has to follow the EU and the US in everything; there is no reason why we cannot do better. As we embark on our own independent trade policy, we should be benchmarking ourselves against what others are doing, to check that we are in the right place.

Allie Renison: This is one of the areas in which, even with the trade-offs, there are many other questions when it comes to our relationship with the EU. This is certainly more in the opportunity basket of having a system that is more tailored to the UK’s needs. It is important to remember the context for the Trade Remedies Authority. It does not exist just to act for its own sake; it exists to undertake investigations. We should be careful not simply to assume that because every business has a concern about unfair competition or dumping, that is actually taking place.

Transparency is a very important part of what the TRA will be set up to do. Our broad support for the Bill is particularly because it is so linked to the creation of that. When I say transparency, if we think back to how it worked in the EU, the way decisions are taken on trade defence measures, anti-dumping measures, countervailing duties—the whole lot, so to speak—is probably one of the least transparent aspects of EU trade policy decision making. We should learn from that and make sure that it is not the case, because some decisions that are taken—rightly so, in the end—have come of that.

When we talk about the calculations and ratios needed, I think we should make that as transparent as possible, simply because once such a decision is taken, even if it is found to be justified in response to a case of dumping, it can have reverberations across supply chains. There are a lot of unintended consequences when it comes to defensive trade measures, and we should be careful to make sure that we understand that. That is not to say that producers do not have an absolute right to have their concerns taken up and redressed, but when it comes to action, because of the way supply chains work, there are often lots of unintended consequences, particularly for measures that are left in place for a longer period of time.

I close with another example of that. A small cluster of German solar panel producers decided to lobby the European Commission to put such measures in place. Please keep in mind that the UK, at that point in time and generally speaking, was more of a net importer, for efficiency and climate change purposes. In such a situation, it became quite difficult to get the UK’s voice heard. I call on that example to make sure that we understand that transparency is as important to the work of the TRA as the outcome itself. I do not know if you heard all that; I had something in my ear for most of it.

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[The Chair]

Jonathan, can you hear us? [Inaudible.] Bill, I think you had a comment.

[Bill Esterson]

If we can get to the two witnesses, could we ask them to put their key points in writing to us, just in case Hansard missed anything? I am sure we would all appreciate that. I could not hear everything.

[The Chair]

In the interest of making sure we have a complete record of proceedings, that is a good suggestion. Thanks to our witnesses, Allie and Jonathan, for their forbearance and their time.

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[David Johnston (Wantage) (Con)]

Q I want to ask you about the data collection provisions in the Bill. I would have thought that your members might welcome that data being collected, and being used to help to promote companies in this country around the world.

Konrad Shek: One of the difficulties about data collection for services generally is that it is quite hard to collect that information. When you see reports from the ONS on the export of services, there is a significant lag in the reporting of that information. It is not quite as easy and straightforward as reporting the export of goods. Obviously, if there were an improvement in collecting data regarding the export of services, that would be hugely beneficial.

[Bill Esterson]

Q Good morning, Konrad. Thank you for your opening remarks and your answers so far. You touched on procurement and the opportunities for your members. Do you see the provisions in the Bill as increasing those opportunities?

Konrad Shek: From what I have seen, the Bill would really lock in current arrangements, rather than bring new opportunities as such. My understanding of the Bill is that it is more about continuity. The UK is a member in its own right. That carries benefits, because we have the opportunity to contribute directly and influence the rule-making around Government procurement, but my understanding is that there is a roll-over of current commitments on offer, based on the EU schedule. My analysis of it is that it is really just maintaining the status quo.

[Bill Esterson]

Q To pick up on the theme of how we would improve the Bill, is there anything on procurement that you would like to see done differently that would be consistent with what is in the Government procurement agreement part of the Bill?

Konrad Shek: Anything that could be done to help small and medium-sized enterprises to get involved in the public procurement market would be hugely beneficial. There are a lot of SME-type firms in the advertising and market research industries, and there are natural psychological barriers to participating in such projects. There are also cultural barriers, particularly if you go into markets where they do not necessarily speak the language. One of the benefits of the GPA is that there is a standardised process, whereby tenders are put out in the standard languages of the World Trade Organisation, and there is a certain amount of transparency about the bidding process, which helps with the overall level playing field.

[Bill Esterson]

Q What kind of support do your SME members receive to break into the sort of markets you have just described, and are there things that you would like to see being done better, to help to break down some of those barriers?

Konrad Shek: A lot of our companies are flexible, particularly in terms of their structures and how they operate around the world. Obviously, the larger agencies have local subsidiaries or local partners, but smaller agencies will probably rely on DIT support; activities such as those to do with taking part in trade fairs or trade missions are hugely beneficial for the smaller companies. There is a real mix.

As I said in my opening comments, we are quite fortunate: with London being a global hub, we are finding that business also comes to us; we do not necessarily have to search for it overseas. But there are definitely opportunities, particularly in the middle east, which are perhaps slightly harder to navigate, and without those local connections, SMEs may find it harder to get the resources to understand things.

[Bill Esterson]

Q Is there anything that DIT could do differently to improve that support for you?

Konrad Shek: Given what is happening with the global economy in the light of covid, it is quite important for DIT to continue lobbying host Governments to keep their markets open and to refrain from trade protectionism—to keep the trade flowing as much as possible. It could also potentially do more work to get intelligence on the ground, understand new projects that might be coming into the pipeline, and feed that quickly to companies.

[Matt Western]

Q To pick up on a point about the competitiveness of the sector, you said, quite rightly, that London is a global leader, both in market research and advertising output. Are you happy with the protection through the TRA, whether it be for intellectual property or otherwise?

Konrad Shek: I do not have a particular view on the Trade Remedies Authority at the moment. As I say, a lot of these anti-dumping subsidies tends to fall on the exports of goods rather than services. It is very hard to understand what distortions might come into play. As services are delivered by people, they are generally affected more by migration and immigration policies than subsidies or specific duties. I cannot think of a particular example at the moment, but there is a possibility that a country may put a tax on digital trade.

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[Andrew Griffith]

I have no further questions. However, I think you should be reassured, Mr Freeland, and we wish you all the best with the successful exports of your business going forward.

Roy Freeland: Thank you.

[Bill Esterson]

Q Good morning, Mr Freeland. To follow up what you were saying about the Buy America provisions, rather than our taking a negative approach to procurement in America, would you like to see Buy British or something similar in the UK for SMEs such as yours?

Roy Freeland: I am not convinced, as a supporter of free trade, that a Buy British element is appropriate. All I suggest is that we ensure adequate reciprocity, so that if a country effectively has Buy Local Acts, such as the Buy America provisions, we can respond by saying, “You’ve got that; we’ve got similar provisions.” Indeed, tenders could request confirmation from tenderers that their own country would not prohibit comparable and effective access in reverse. A simple requirement like that is appropriate at this stage, rather than prejudging the whole US FTA.

I should point out that the World Trade Organisation and the EU have noticeably failed to deal with Buy America. Therefore, one needs to look at it in another way.

[Bill Esterson]

Q Are you a member of a small business organisation? The Federation of Small Businesses is probably the best known in the UK. Regardless of its membership, what do you think is the general view of small and medium-sized enterprises in the UK of what you have just been saying?

Roy Freeland: No, I am not a member of the FSB. However, I was a member of the Rail Supply Group council running the SME workstream, and of the Rail Industry Association SME group, so I am very familiar with SMEs’ issues. Indeed, I consulted with the Federation of Small Businesses prior to giving this evidence.

The particular problems for the SMEs that will be affected by the Bill include the requirement for membership of the GPA. Large multinationals can get round the GPA by simply setting up factories in the respective countries. A lot of them in the rail industry have already done that. SMEs do not have that capacity. I am slightly concerned that SMEs do not have the resource to fight the sort of legal battles that are clearly going on in the current version of trade remedies, and they need some support there. Those are particular problems that SMEs can face, but they absolutely need the GPA.

[The Chair]

Any further questions? Mr Freeland, we are experiencing some technical difficulties at this end, so if there are no further questions from Members, I propose that we wind this session up slightly earlier. Thank you very much, Mr Freeland, for your evidence. It has been very helpful to the Committee.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Maria Caulfield.)