Finance (No. 2) Bill

Bill Esterson Excerpts

Monday 11th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

That was a fascinating exposition of small town, small business socialism, a political philosophy that I have never come across before. I am not sure how much of it will have been welcome to Labour Front Benchers.

I intend to follow the example of the Exchequer Secretary who opened the debate—rather than that of the shadow Chief Secretary—and speak briefly on this brief technical Bill. It is much briefer than many of the other Finance Bills I have seen in my five years as an MP. When I was new to this place, the Liberal Democrat Whips Office inflicted cruel and unusual punishment on me by putting me on the Finance Bill Standing Committee as training in how to operate as an MP. It seems that it is my luck to serve in that way again five years later. To new MPs who may be similarly blessed by the Government Whips Office this time, I can say that it is exceptionally good training. If they can survive the Finance Bill, they will be well prepared for any other legislation in Committee.

This is a small and technical Bill, much of which is familiar ground to me from my professional career before I became an MP. I dealt with capital allowances, venture capital trusts, enterprise management incentive schemes and group relief. I am not so familiar with the taxation of the earnings of seafarers or the workings of petroleum revenue tax, and perhaps the Economic Secretary will give us all a tutorial on those in the exciting Committee stage of the Bill to which some of us may look forward.

As the chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and public health, I welcome clause 23, which refers to long cigarettes. The hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), who is no longer in his place, mentioned that it would be wise for the Government to invest in more measures to combat the smuggling of cigarettes and the avoidance of duty by some by cutting long cigarettes into two.

The Bill has to be seen against the background of the deepest deficits among developed countries. Contrary to what the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) said—I tried to intervene on him at the time—it is a fact that the deficit that this coalition Government have to tackle is the largest among the larger economies in the world. It is larger than that of the US and Japan, as well as those of the so-called PIGS countries, including Spain and Greece—[Interruption.] Yes, it is larger as a proportion of our economy. Our budget deficit is more than 10% of our GDP and is higher than those of all the countries that I have cited. That is the serious issue with which the coalition Government have to get to grips. We have made some tough choices on taxation, which were the subject of detailed debates after the Budget, and we have some tough decisions to make on expenditure next week. The Government are making those tough decisions, and we are not avoiding the adverse consequences and political hostility that may come our way. We are being responsible, and not avoiding the issue as Labour Front Benchers are doing. They are denying their responsibility for the mess we are in and even scrabbling about to bring in what must have seemed very clever quotes from Wikipedia on the Boer war and Lord Kitchener earlier this afternoon. We are taking the deficit seriously and we are putting in place the measures that are needed to tackle it.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Is it responsible to follow the policies adopted in the Republic of Ireland, which have seen the deficit grow, not fall? Those policies are similar to those advocated by this Government.

[Stephen Williams]

All countries, whether in the EU or elsewhere, are having to put forward measures that are appropriate to their domestic circumstances. The circumstances of a small country of about 3 million people such as Ireland are completely different, and we will have to evolve our own response. My point is that we are in a desperate situation, as bequeathed to us by the previous Labour Government. We are taking that challenge seriously and not shirking the difficult decisions that will have to be made to put our economy and public finances back on track so that we can make the sensible investments in public services that we all wish to achieve.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Binley]

As the founder of two small businesses, I can tell the hon. Lady that investment benefits are not the major concern. The major concern is the ability to get money from the banks to act as working capital. I can see that the incentives those benefits provide are helpful, but they are not the core problem that small businesses are facing at the moment. The truth is that the Government will have to review a number of areas of policy in order to deal with the core problem.

I was saying that the banks were building up their capital assets to a dangerous degree. J. P. Morgan has recently announced new rules that will increase its risk-weighted asset base by 25%. Research also suggests that Barclays will achieve an even greater increase, of some 44%. Of course banks must be soundly based and properly regulated, but we have to get the balance right. All the evidence suggests that the capital reserve build-up has a sizeable detrimental effect on the ability of SMEs to capitalise on growth opportunities. As I said earlier, that will threaten the Budget strategy, unless the Government deal with the problem, and I hope that the Economic Secretary will come back to me on this matter.

Research by the Federation of Small Businesses suggests that 24% of SMEs are already having difficulty coming to terms with current increases in the cost of money, and the new capital requirements will compound that situation. This could not come at a worse time. More businesses are in danger of going to the wall through overtrading during the upturn than folded during the downturn.

[Bill Esterson]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s comments about the difficulty that small businesses are having in getting access to money from the banks. Does he agree that there will be a danger to small businesses if too many people in the public sector lose their jobs, because they are important customers of those businesses? The effect of that could represent just as great a danger as the problem he has outlined.

[Mr Binley]

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. The truth is that the previous Government were so profligate as to create problems for our children and grandchildren, and I find that immoral. I do not want that to happen to my children and grandchildren, and the only way to deal with financial difficulties in a business, a family or any other organisation is to cut spending and earn more money. There is no other answer, and the sooner the Opposition recognise that, the sooner the people of this country will listen to them a little more.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

I want to start by discussing some of the comments made by the hon. Member for Watford (Richard Harrington). He talked of total denial among Labour Members about what has happened, but probably demonstrates the same himself on behalf of the Members around him. The figures on unemployment, repossessions and business failures in my constituency this year and over the past two years during the recession are roughly half those on unemployment, repossessions and business failures during the Tory recession of the 1990s. Many Members on both sides of the House will have found that to be the case. The reason for that is the support given to families and businesses during the most severe recession since the 1930s and a decision to look after the human side at a time of greatest peril. I am afraid that that factor is in danger of being missed by this Government.

The decisions taken in this place, which my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) commented on, affect people’s lives as they go about their everyday business. We need to consider that; this is not just a series of numbers. Some Members on the other side of the House operate as if the cuts in spending and child benefit and the rise in VAT are just numbers, but the effect is very real for millions of people out there, and it is that effect that really counts.

The hon. Member for Watford also mentioned the multiplier effect. I see he is no longer in the Chamber— [Interruption.] He has moved seats; I apologise. The point about the multiplier effect is that it is key to providing the stimulus that will allow the economy to grow and the deficit to be cut. Only by growing the economy can we possibly have any hope of cutting the deficit.

It is the role of Government in a recession to step in and support the economy until the private sector is strong enough to take over. The reality is that, at this stage, the private sector in much of this country is not strong enough to take over, step in and replace the Government in growing the economy. That is why the issue is one of timing: how soon we make cuts and how quickly we can pay off the deficit. That is an important point, alongside the impact on people’s lives.

[Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that the Government can grow the economy only with money already paid to them in tax? We therefore desperately need the private sector to be kicking off, and the Government cannot replace the private sector.

[Bill Esterson]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point that is often made by Conservative Members, but if the private sector is not strong enough to step in and support the economy, that approach does not work. Only when the private sector is strong enough can it step in and behave in the way that he describes. At this stage, the recovery is so fragile that my concern is that we will follow what has happened in Ireland and slip back into recession unless we get this absolutely right.

It is crucial that the timing is right, which is why the Chancellor is now considering a return to quantitative easing as advocated by the Governor of the Bank of England. It is interesting that the Chancellor is looking at increasing the amount of money in the economy, which is done by borrowing—the other way of doing this. Even the Chancellor recognises that we have to get this decision right at this stage of the economic cycle.

History teaches us many lessons. In the ’30s, and to some extent in the ’80s and ’90s, the then Governments decided to cut hard and fast. What happened was what we have seen in Ireland over the past three years: the economy grew smaller, and it grew harder to pay off the deficit, not easier. The lessons are there for us if we wish to learn from them. I hope that the Government will learn. As I have said, there are signs that the Chancellor is learning some of those lessons.

I also want to talk about the value of investment in capital projects. Tonight, some Members have talked about the way that many projects were implemented over the past few years. As I have shown by referring to low unemployment and low rates of business failure and home repossession, those investments in capital projects—not least the Building Schools for the Future programme—benefited local economies very much by providing work and business for many small and medium-sized enterprises. It is important that we keep that kind of capital spending going, which is why it was so wrong that the Government cut Building Schools for the Future and many other capital programmes when they came to office.

The primary capital programme is another such example, and I raised the playbuilder programme in Education questions earlier today. There are also schemes such as the Thornton relief road in my constituency. Road projects are a great example of how a stimulus can be very effective in a short time, through the multiplier effect, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Watford, who has now left the Chamber. The way to pay off the deficit is by getting that stimulus in place now until the private sector is strong enough, and not to go back into recession, where the deficit will only grow.

A number of Members have mentioned the role of the banks and how they are operating at present. I have seen that myself as a number of constituents have described the circumstances that they face. Banks have been calling in loans and overdrafts at a moment’s notice, using the small print, which they always reassured business owners they would never do. In some banks, the debt collection department often steps in and threatens business owners with either having to repay at a moment’s notice or pay punitive interest rates. All that goes on without the relationship side of the bank knowing that it is being done. I have already had a number of examples of that in my constituency.

The behaviour of the banks also needs to be tackled, and I am pleased to hear that Members on both sides of the House, having experienced this through their constituents, are determined to take action. However, there is also the issue of the responsibility of the banks for creating the global financial crisis in the first place. We need to tackle that and ensure that it never happens again. We also need to ensure that those responsible for the scale of the crisis through irresponsible lending to people who could not possibly repay their loans and disguising that by using complex financial instruments are made responsible. We must come up with an effective way to deal with that in the long term.

I know that there has been discussion in Government circles of the international banking levy, and I would be interested to hear what Ministers have to say on that issue. My understanding is that they do not propose to go anything like as far as President Obama, but the opportunity should not be missed, because if we can get decent international co-operation on the level of levy that should be brought in, we have a chance of putting the international financial system in a far stronger position for the future, of finding a way to invest back in the global economy, and of ensuring a robust and lasting recovery.

A levy on banking transactions is a far fairer way of tackling the deficit than the kind of cuts being proposed. People to whom I speak in my constituency do not see how cutting child benefit or tax credits, or putting up VAT, will help to cut the deficit; they see it as taking money out of the economy and feel that they are not being supported. That makes them less likely to spend the money that will, ultimately, help businesses to get back on their feet. They do not see why people on middle and low incomes should shoulder the burden of sorting out the financial problems caused by the major financial institutions, and that is why we need to work closely with partners at an international level to sort things out.

I want to talk about why I think that some of the moves made by the Government will make it harder for us to cut the deficit and will, in fact, have the opposite effect to the one that the Government claim for them. As we have heard Members say, scrapping regional development agencies has a clear implication. By going from eight organisations to 58, it seems to me—this is also being said by business leaders, certainly in the north-west—that all we will do is cause duplication, with costs being repeated 58 times instead of eight times. The changes will make economic co-ordination more, not less, difficult. Also, many of the RDAs have a very good track record of generating inward investment. The move will cost more money and be less effective. We see the same kind of mistake being made in the health service with the scrapping of primary care trusts: that will result in the creation of more organisations that do exactly the same job, with a repeat of the costs.

I mentioned the proposals on VAT, which will take money out of the economy at a time when the recovery is still fragile. The VAT cut had the opposite effect, and I do not accept the arguments of Government Members who say that it did not. The VAT cut resulted in an immediate benefit to the economy, because the money saved was generally spent straight away: people had spare change, and they used it. That had an effect at a very local level, in the shops. Of course, VAT increases hit the poorest hardest, and the Prime Minister himself called VAT a very regressive tax when he spoke at Cameron Direct in May 2009. For once, he really did agree with Nick; Nick told the “Today” programme the same thing on 7 April this year.

In my constituency, 40% of jobs are in the public sector. What happens when those jobs are cut? When police officers, teachers or health workers lose their jobs, they stop spending money with those same small businesses that we need to thrive. They stop spending their money not only in the shops, but on builders, plumbers and other tradespeople. That puts pressure on people who are self-employed and who run small businesses, and not just on public sector workers. There will be an effect not just on the public sector but in the private sector, unless we get the approach right at this stage in the cycle.

In conclusion, we need to look to the banks in solving this problem. We need the banks to lend to small businesses, as Members have said, and we need to look to the banks to take responsibility through a global financial levy. The Government need to reconsider many of the approaches that they are taking, because they are going to make things worse; they are going to increase the deficit and make it harder to grow the economy, and their measures will not work in the way that they hope.

[Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)]

I start by welcoming the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) to his party’s Front Bench. He has been in the Chamber for most Finance Bill debates, and we have sparred a little bit along the way. I am glad to see him taking part from the Front Bench, but what a baptism of fire this is for him. You were not here earlier, Madam Deputy Speaker—one of your colleagues was in the Chair—but the hon. Gentleman heard an unfortunate tirade from his hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), who gave one of the most entertaining speeches that I have heard in this Chamber.

The hon. Member for Bassetlaw had us all going. At one point, we wanted to cheer, but almost immediately afterwards we wanted to boo—and that goes for Members on both sides of the Chamber. His argument developed in quite an incredible way. As my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) said, the hon. Member for Bassetlaw is the only Member who could play for both teams during a football match. It was quite an incredible speech. However, he did talk about deficit deniers, a term illustrated quite well by the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and even better by the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), who has just spoken.

The hon. Member for Sefton Central spoke about capital spend and investment, but surely he recognises that the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer also wanted to cut capital spend. We understand that the new shadow Chancellor and the shadow Cabinet are following the former Chancellor’s plans for deficit reduction, which involved a reduction in capital spend. It would be fascinating to know whether the hon. Gentleman totally disagrees with his Front-Bench colleagues and thinks that they are completely wrong, or whether his argument was just confused. I really do not know where his argument was going.

[Bill Esterson]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Alec Shelbrooke]

In one moment; I just wanted to draw on your comment about the US economy. You said that it was a model to follow. There has been an $800 billion investment—or stimulus, if you will—put into the US economy, yet unemployment rates there have grown quite significantly. That is why President Obama’s popularity ratings have fallen.

[Bill Esterson]

I am sure that I did not mention the US economy, but we can check that in Hansard later. I want to pick up the point about capital investment. We need to be clear about the differences between the two sides on that issue. We Labour Members were clear that we would keep Building Schools for the Future and a number of other major projects going. We were looking at a long-term process for reducing the deficit. Those on the Government Benches proposed cutting all capital spending more or less straight away.

[Alec Shelbrooke]

I am glad that I gave way to the hon. Gentleman, because he makes my point. You say that you want to keep the investment going on these capital projects, but you also say that you will reduce the capital budget. How? That does not add up. You simply cannot go on saying that you will spend money here and there, not raise taxes, and carry on borrowing. The argument simply does not add up. I became confused halfway through the speech made by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw—