Succession to the Crown Bill

Ben Wallace Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I want to thank the House for the gripping debate that took place last Tuesday and for the scrutiny that has been provided. I was very glad to see that Members had sufficient time in Committee to consider all the amendments that were selected. I particularly want to thank various participants, such as my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) and the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who brought such a deep understanding of our complex and colourful constitutional settlement to the Floor of the House. I would also like to thank the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), who cruelly described my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset as the Member for the middle ages but then went on to refer to the Roman era—so presumably he is the Member representing the Roman occupation in today’s debate.

I also wish to thank the royal household for its engagement and should mention the tireless work of Governments from across the Commonwealth, ably marshalled by Rebecca Kitteridge the New Zealand Cabinet Secretary. It has been a remarkable achievement to ensure that the changes we are discussing can be effected across the realms of the Commonwealth for which Her Majesty is Head of State.

I should like to make a point of clarification on an issue discussed in Committee. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) asked whether, under the Statute of Westminster 1931, individual Parliaments in the respective states of the Commonwealth need to give their assent. The relevant part of the Statute of Westminster is the preamble, which includes the following:

“And whereas it is meet and proper to set out by way of preamble to this Act that, inasmuch as the Crown is the symbol of the free association of the members of the British Commonwealth of Nations, and as they are united by a common allegiance to the Crown, it would be in accord with the established constitutional position of all the members of the Commonwealth in relation to one another that any alteration in the law touching the Succession to the Throne or the Royal Style and Titles shall hereafter require the assent as well of the Parliaments of all the Dominions as of the Parliament of the United Kingdom”.

To put it another way, our opinion is that the Statute of Westminster 1931 is politically rather than legally binding. A statement in a preamble is different from a section in an Act. Bearing that in mind, the Government have consulted the 15 other Commonwealth realms in order to reach agreement as to how the laws on succession to the throne should be changed. We have secured confirmation from Heads of Government and Cabinet Secretaries that each realm is in a position to take the steps necessary to bring the changes into effect. We consider that the appropriate steps are a matter for each respective realm in their particular context. Although some realms will not find it necessary to involve their Parliaments, others will.

The Bill is about equality. The Prime Ministers of the 16 Commonwealth nations of which Her Majesty the Queen is Head of State agreed during their meeting in Perth in 2011 to work together towards a common approach to amending the rules of succession to their respective Crowns. All those countries wish to see change in two areas: first, to end the system of male-preference primogeniture, under which a younger son can displace an elder daughter in the line of succession; and, secondly, to remove the bar on the heir to the throne marrying a Catholic. One effect of the proposed change is that if the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge were to have a daughter and then a son, the daughter would precede the son in the line of succession. I am proud that the Bill will remove two long-standing pieces of discrimination and modernise and affirm the place of our constitutional monarchy.

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

On that issue—my right hon. Friend uses the example of a daughter and a younger son—has he managed to provide clarification on the points raised last week on what would happen to titles such as the Duke of Rothesay that specify a male heir in their deeds or patents provident?

[Tom Brake]

That matter has been brought up at various stages of the Bill. Titles are a matter for the monarch. Because we are restricting the scope of the Bill, we can move forward.

[Mr Wallace]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way but I believe he might not understand me. The monarch is the fount of honour and can create a title, but most titles are not the privilege of the monarch once they are created—most titles are in fact a matter for Parliament. It takes an Act of Parliament to change or abolish a title except those deemed, under the doctrine of merger, to resort back to the Crown. In that case, will he tell us what will happen to those titles not under the doctrine of merger?

[Tom Brake]

On the titles to which my hon. Friend refers, the following might be helpful. The Scottish titles currently held by the Prince of Wales—Prince and Great Steward of Scotland, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Lord of the Isles and Baron of Renfrew—can pass automatically to a female heir apparent. Those titles have always hung together. The removal of the male bias in the line of succession could therefore not result in the detachment of the titles from the Crown. We have consulted the Court of the Lord Lyon, the official heraldry office for Scotland, on that. I hope that reassures my hon. Friend.

As we look forward to the birth of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge’s first child, we can also celebrate the fact that a baby boy or girl will have an equal claim to the throne.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Wallace]

I had no intention of contributing to this thin Bill’s passage through the House of Commons. In fact, it was only last week, one lunchtime, that I looked at it and decided to do so because I could see a problem with it. Of course, it was also because I wanted to help my coalition partner, the Deputy Prime Minister, and to give him the same easy time that he gives us, by making sure that the Government were given some helpful hints on the Bill during its passage. I agree with the principle of what we are trying to achieve and totally support the Government’s policy on this. However, experience from my previous life, and, I suppose, from my current life—I should declare that I am a member of the Queen’s Bodyguard for Scotland—means that I recognise that there are many foibles in modern and historical changes to the constitution. Making changes is easier said than done.

Wanting to be helpful in last week’s debate, I raised some concerns about the other titles and assets that accompany the sovereign. It is easy to talk about changing the succession without realising that our monarchs are more than that—they have other titles, such as the Duke of Rothesay, the Earl of Carrick, the Duke of Lancaster and the Duke of Cornwall. Some are merely titles without asset, while some are titles with asset, but they are all very important. They are regulated by more people than just one Government lawyer. I am surprised by the lack of consultation with key people such as the Lord Lyon King of Arms in Scotland and the Garter Principal King of Arms in England. These people monitor and, in effect, register letters patent to make sure that the power and extent of a title is upheld. This is not as easy as saying that we can change the succession and everything else will fall into line. I am therefore hoping for clarification from the Government.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) gave the example of one or two Scottish titles that can follow through the female line. That is absolutely correct, as in the case of titles such as the Countess of Mar—one of the oldest titles in Britain. However, my right hon. Friend missed out the fact that that takes place only when there is no male heir as a sibling; when there is, they will get the title under the rule of primogeniture. We have heard the example of what would happen if the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge had a son and an older daughter, and I assume that the son would be likely to continue to inherit the other titles.

The Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall are titles that come with asset, and they have a very significant impact. I understand the Government’s line, and I accept that it is likely—almost certain—that the monarch will continue to enjoy the incomes from those assets, but not necessarily the assets themselves and control over them. A situation could arise whereby the Duchy of Lancaster’s assets, which are considerable— the latest valuation is over £400 million—reside with the son, but the income is diverted to the monarch. That is fine the first time round, but the second time round, when the son of the son has the asset, the asset will get further away from the title, as will the control that may go with it, and the process will continue.

We need to know that the Government—I urge the other House to make sure that this is the case—have consulted the deeds patent under which these titles are issued, and the duchy chronicles and charters of the 15th and 16th centuries that set out what conditions are attached to the Crown. If we do not get this right, it could come back to haunt us at a later date. I urge the Government to make sure that clarity is provided to the other place by the time the Bill arrives there.

Succession to the Crown Bill

Ben Wallace Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I really want to make progress now.

The reform that limits permission to the six who are in line to the throne is made for practical reasons; the other two reforms are more about our values. The current rules of succession belong to a bygone era; they reflect old prejudices and old fears. Today we do not support laws that discriminate on either religious or gender grounds. They have no place in modern Britain, and certainly not in our monarchy—an institution central to our constitution, to the Commonwealth, and to our national identity too. With the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge expecting a baby and our having just celebrated our Queen’s 60-year reign, this Bill is timely as well as popular. It is also straightforward and enjoys support across the House, which, as I should know, is a rare thing in constitutional reform issues.

I will come to the Catholic provisions in a few moments, because I am aware that, as we have already heard, some hon. Members have concerns about their implications. On female succession, the real question that we need to ask is why it has taken us so long. This is a nation that prides itself on pioneering equality between the sexes: a nation of great Queens such as Queen Victoria and Elizabeth II. A woman can, and has, been Head of the UK Government, yet still on our statute books, with Parliament’s official backing, we have succession laws based on the supposed superiority of men. That anachronism is out of step with our society, it sends the wrong message to the rest of the world, and it is time for the rules to change.

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

As the Member of Parliament for Wyre and Preston North, I represent huge tracts of Duchy of Lancaster land. Henry IV set up the Lancastrian inheritance separately from the Crown and its entities to follow through the male heirs, except where the monarch was a female. Under that separate arrangement for passing on the private possessions of the Duke of Lancaster, inheritance currently remains with the male heir where a male is a child of a monarch. Therefore, if the Queen were to have both a boy and a girl, would we not be in danger of splitting an inheritance so that the changes ensured that the female inherited the position of monarch but the title of Duke of Lancaster went to the son?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Before the Deputy Prime Minister answers, may I say that we need shorter interventions? I hope that that can be taken on board.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As my hon. Friend knows, this Bill deals only with the succession to the throne and not with issues relating to the succession of hereditary titles. We can have a perfectly valid separate argument about that, but it is not within the very narrow scope of this Bill, all the reasons for which have been explained by the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith).

[Mr Wallace]

I am not sure that my right hon. Friend understands. This measure, without such clarity, will disinherit the monarch of the lands that the monarch holds in the title of Duke of Lancaster, given that that is a separate division from the Crown.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Let me make it clear that this is about the succession to the Crown and nothing else. The issues of succession to hereditary titles can be dealt with separately if this House so wishes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

I did not intend to speak in this debate but I am one of three Members of Parliament whose constituency includes a significant amount of land belonging to the Duchy of Lancaster. The constituency of my neighbour the Deputy Speaker, the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans), includes large areas of the duchy—including a very fine pub, the Inn at Whitewell, which is owned by Her Majesty the Queen, or the duchy—as does that of my colleague and hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw). We are therefore acutely aware of the nuanced differences between the monarch—the sovereign—and the Duke of Lancaster, as our Queen is known in the county palatine of Lancashire.

When we consider the impact of the Bill, it is important to understand how it could impact on the other titles, assets and offices of our sovereign. I am looking for clarity. I do not oppose the principle of what the Bill seeks to achieve, although I sometimes perhaps favour the route of the old clan chieftains in Scotland of choosing the most appropriate person to succeed rather than the oldest or youngest, or a male or female. The Saxons sometimes adopted a similar tactic.

Today the duchy is more than just a title; it represents huge amounts of land and assets. It owns about 19,000 hectares of land, valued at £350 million in 2010, so a significant asset is attached to the title, and we must understand the problem that the Bill may create. In the next debate, it is important that the Government set out clearly the position that may need to be addressed.

The current Duchy of Lancaster is the second creation, set up for John of Gaunt, son of Edward III, in 1362. It became a powerful duchy, and as a result, when Henry Bolingbroke succeeded as Henry IV and was crowned in 1399, he was keen to ensure that his inheritance and that of his children was kept separate from the Crown and the sovereign, as at that time kings tended to lose their crowns.

[Damian Collins]

My hon. Friend raises an important point about Henry Bolingbroke, but is that not a demonstration of the flexible nature of the powers of succession, given that he usurped the Crown?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Wallace]

One reason I do not oppose the Bill is that I do not live in a fantasy world in which Parliament and others have never interfered with the succession. In fact, if Parliament had not, we might still have a Stuart king. I, as a Scot descended from Jacobites, would probably have been quite happy with that.

[Chris Bryant]

I hope the hon. Gentleman will not listen to his Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins). If Henry Bolingbroke did usurp the throne, the present monarch is not the right monarch. I think it was decided by Parliament that Richard II had already abdicated and relinquished the throne and that therefore there was a vacancy, much as happened in 1688.

[Mr Wallace]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. However, Henry IV’s first act on the throne was to pass the charter of duchy liberties, in which he asserted that the duchy was his possession, separate from those of the sovereign and the Crown. That was confirmed by Henry VII in 1485, and for the benefit of officials and Whitehall it is important to note that there has since been no fresh settlement. Perhaps the clarity we are looking for is found way back in 1485.

This is why clarity is important. The Bill, with which I agree, could create an eldest daughter as sovereign, who will take precedent over a younger son. Perhaps that is where the problem lies. If a monarch has two children, the eldest a daughter and the youngest a son, the Bill empowers the eldest to become the next sovereign. It makes no mention of the Duchy of Lancaster or the title of Duke of Lancaster, separate from the Crown, and nor does it mention what will happen to the assets. Without clarity, the Bill might mean that we have today stripped Her Majesty the Queen of £300 million-worth of assets from her inventory.

I do not believe that that is what is intended, but clarity is needed. It is easy to ensure that the income is diverted to the sovereign. It is highly likely that existing statute provides that income from the Duchies of Lancaster and of Cornwall will continue, but the question of ownership and the title requires clarity.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Having considered the Duchy of Lancaster, will my hon. Friend consider the Duchy of Normandy, and whether the Queen’s possessions as Duke of Normandy might divert to a younger male child when the Crown went to an elder female one?

[Mr Wallace]

I am not an expert on the other duchies in this land, but my hon. Friend proves the point that interfering with succession and fiddling with titles is easier said than done, especially when the titles are so old that they date back to some of the first interferences in succession and the Crown. When the title is linked so much to assets, the House is owed a clear explanation.

[Christopher Pincher]

Will my hon. Friend invite the Minister to make clear what will happen to the assets and title of the Duchy of Cornwall, which have historically passed through the male line through male primogeniture?

[Mr Wallace]

I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that there is a difference between the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall. My understanding is that the latter comes into existence with the heir to the throne and effectively dissolves when the monarch dies. The Duchy of Lancaster goes back far longer. As far as we can see, it is a separate title and therefore cannot be excluded without excluding the assets that go with it.

I do not expect the Minister to have the 1485 charter at her disposal, or that anyone will be able to produce the answer instantly. I am sure it will take far greater legal brains to produce a clear, concise solution. There might be no problem at all: the charter may make it clear that it does not matter whether the heir is male or female, dealing only with the definition of “sovereign”. That may be the answer, but we need clarity.

As ever, changes such as this are easier said than done. That shows how far back our historical ties go. For 700 years the Duchy of Lancaster has owned some of the land in my constituency. Some of my constituents are tenants of the Duchy of Lancaster and rely for their livelihoods on such things being made clear. They, like Her Majesty the Queen and her assets, deserve that clarity.

[Martin Horwood]

I should like to reassure the hon. Gentleman and perhaps Ministers about any risk to the Queen’s assets. There is an editorial cut-off date in clause 1, so the measure applies only to persons born after 28 October 2011. On a constituency note, that must be reassuring to my constituent Zara Phillips, who would otherwise have gone nine places up the order of succession. I am sure her marriage to Mike Tindall would have been approved all the same.

[Mr Wallace]

My hon. Friend’s point is well made, but the position is unclear. The Government want to get this right, so I hope they will furnish the House with the clarity I seek.

Algeria

Ben Wallace Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. Many organisations in the Syrian opposition want what most people in this House would want, which is for the Syrian people to be free of the brutal dictatorship and from the murder and mayhem they face—60,000 are dead so far. Of course, elements of the Syrian opposition have extremist views and extremist ways and we must be extremely concerned about that. To characterise all or a majority of the Syrian opposition in that way would not be right.

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

May I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for not only how he has dealt with the immediate situation but for how, since the beginning of this Government, he has tried to deal with the underlying causes of terrorism abroad through the proper focus of international development? One way that Britain can protect her interests abroad by identifying threat is through a good strong network of defence attachés across our embassies. In the past decade, that network has weakened slightly. Will my right hon. Friend reconsider it and see what he can do?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very happy to reconsider that issue. I have been struck on my travels by the fact that the relationship between the defence attaché and foreign Governments is often one of the strongest we have. We will publish a paper about our defence engagement strategy shortly and it will carefully consider that issue.

Diamond Jubilee

Ben Wallace Excerpts

Wednesday 7th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

May I associate myself with the comments of the Leader of the Opposition and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister about the sad loss in Afghanistan today? One of the soldiers was a member of the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, and my thoughts are with the family and all those who have given their lives—the ultimate sacrifice—in fighting for Afghanistan.

I support the Humble Address today. Before I came into the House, I served Her Majesty the Queen and Duke of Lancaster as a member of the Scots Guards for nine years, and I am currently a member of the Queen’s bodyguard for Scotland. Now that our colleagues, the Scottish National party, have become monarchists too, perhaps there is less cause for me to use that body to guard Her Majesty in future.

I saw behind the scenes of the monarchy in my time before entering politics. We in the House know more than most that it is not easy to make people feel special on their occasion. It is not easy to show interest in the things they do every day, which they take to be so important. It is not easy to live under the daily gaze of the media, both in private life and in public life. We do this on occasion, but Her Majesty the Queen has done it for 60 years. Her family does it every day.

Not only does Her Majesty do that to the highest standard, but she leaves everybody she meets with the feeling that they have been touched by the monarchy and by the nation. When people are given an award by Her Majesty the Queen, it is not because of politics or favour but because our nation values what they do. That is something that she herself embodies. She also leaves with all of us a story of our encounters with the Queen or members of the royal family.

On one occasion I was the officer of the guard at Buckingham palace and I had to accompany Her Majesty the Queen to an investiture. I was at that time seeking a seat in the Scottish Parliament and I had been for the selection meeting on the Monday at Balmoral, in Crathie, to try and stand for the seat of West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine in the Scottish Parliament. I was not lucky and did not get through to the final round. However, Her Majesty the Queen asked me what I had done and I said that I had been up in her neck of the woods, but unfortunately I thought that members of the selection board thought I was a bit too young. She said, “I think they should think again.” The next day I got a phone call, to be told that the shortlist of two was too small and would be expanded to five. I was then selected as the Conservative candidate for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, and elected to the Scottish Parliament, and perhaps that is why I am standing here today.

The Queen also embodies the Sandhurst tradition of serve to lead, which is all about public duty. She taught me at Sandhurst that you give yourself to lead your country. Perhaps she is the true inspiration of the big society. We forget so much about the value and importance of public duty. People today need more stability. They need less politics, not more, and they need impartiality. Her Majesty the Queen has provided all that for our nation, and she has allowed our nation to feel secure in itself and to continue to achieve the greatness that this country achieves and stands for throughout the world.

On behalf of all the armed forces that I served with and the veterans whom I now represent in Lancashire, and my constituents in the Duchy of Lancaster and my constituency, Wyre and Preston North, I wish Her Majesty a happy and successful diamond jubilee, and long may she reign.

G20

Ben Wallace Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I spoke on the financial transaction tax at the session where it was discussed and said that we supported it at a global level. I made a few of the points that I have made in the House today because sitting around the table were the representatives of European countries and institutions, including the European Commission, that have spent this money several times over. When we talk about the European budget, such a tax is given as the great way to raise money for that; when we talk about development, it is given as the way that we will pay for development; when we talk about climate change, it suddenly becomes the magic way to meet all our climate change commitments. Frankly, I do not think that we should allow other European countries to get away with that.

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

It is highly likely that China’s condition for buying into eurozone debt will be the lifting of the EU-wide arms embargo, which would be directly against Britain’s national interests given its defence industry base and the tens of thousands of jobs that are dependent on it. Given that that would require a unanimous decision by all EU member states, will the Prime Minister confirm that the UK Government would veto such a request?

[The Prime Minister]

We do not support the lifting of the arms embargo. In the discussions at the G20, there was not some sort of shopping list from the Chinese—a rather unfair point that some have made. Clearly, it is in China’s interests, just as it is in our interests, that the eurozone crisis is dealt with. China has huge export markets in Europe and it owns huge amounts of European debt. That is why China, like Britain, subscribes to the IMF and will support an increase in its resources.

Libya

Ben Wallace Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. What we are doing at the moment is taking through parts of unfreezing assets on an ad hoc basis through the UN Security Council. We were able to unfreeze the Libyan dinars printed by De La Rue in this country, and we can now distribute them back to the Libyan people. As for making sure that they are properly received, as I said in my statement there should be a proper accounting and transparency initiative in Libya. As for a more general asset release, we need a new UN resolution, and we are pushing for it, but we do not want to lose what we have at the moment, which is a UN resolution that enables the NATO mission to go on protecting civilians. It is a balance: we want to get both those things so that the assets can be unfrozen more broadly.

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

The last Government consistently told us that the whole reason for working more closely with Libya was the agreement reached in 2003 on weapons of mass destruction. Following the collapse of the Gaddafi regime, we now see that Gaddafi kept hardly any part of that agreement. He hoarded massive stocks of chemical weapons in order continually to brutalise and ignore human rights. Does the Prime Minister not think it rather odd that the last Government knew that all along, but for eight years continued to increase co-operation with the Libyans?

[The Prime Minister]

That is an important point. Hopefully, with a new Government in Libya, we shall be able to see how much of the agreement over weapons of mass destruction was kept. It is concerning that there are still large supplies of unweaponised mustard gas, on which the international community and, now, the NTC must keep a close eye, but, as I have said, when the new Government get their feet under the table, we may find out more.

Public Disorder

Ben Wallace Excerpts

Thursday 11th August 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

It is very important that we have a good network of police cells in our towns and cities, so that officers do not have to drive for miles after making an arrest. That is why cutting some of the paperwork and bureaucracy that has led to some of the cell closures is so important.

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

Too many times recently, we have seen the Metropolitan police force try to straddle its two main functions: leading specialist national operations and policing London. When the dust settles, will the Prime Minister consider the merits of the case for splitting the Met to ensure that we have a police force for London focusing on public order and low-level criminality, and perhaps an enhanced agency for specialist national operations?

[The Prime Minister]

I hear what my hon. Friend says, but with a year to go to the Olympics, I think that sort of major structural change to the Metropolitan Police Service simply would not be right.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973

Ben Wallace Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

I fully understand why we intervened in Libya. Because of our actions today, on Friday and over the weekend, thousands of civilians are now safer than they were when they were within reach of Gaddafi’s butchering hand. We should reflect on the comments of the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) about Colonel Gaddafi’s statements that he would go from room to room, showing no mercy.

I pay tribute to the Prime Minister and his team for getting the resolution at the UN with considerable swiftness, and to our armed service personnel, who right now are risking life and limb to ensure that the civilians of Libya are protected from a regime that shows no appetite to stop.

Because of the military might of the west, we have to realise that the question of what comes next may arise more quickly than we think. We have already seen the accuracy of our armed forces and their ability to degrade a foreign power’s military, which means that we need to start thinking through the problems ahead. It is not enough just to implement and follow the spirit of resolution 1973. We have to show the world that we are doing so, and how. I believe that we need to be a little more transparent in that. We need to talk, perhaps, about the targets that we are hitting, because if we do not, Mr Gaddafi and the enemies of reform in the middle east may well fill the vacuum with their propaganda. We have already seen that today to some extent. It is important that, with the winds of change blowing through the middle east, we are very clear about what our red lines are and what we stand for. If we are not, we may be open to the charge of giving false hope to other countries, or to charges of hypocrisy.

We should remember that authority in the middle east has changed. It has moved away from the Ministers of Arab countries to whom we used to look for reassurances and towards the Arab street. Some Arab Ministers are not in as strong a position as they would like. We should not forget that the Arab street is becoming ever more emboldened throughout the region.

We should be consistent in our criticism. Bahrain is currently setting out on a course of sectarian violence and oppression against its 70% Shi’a majority. Indeed, a lady who worked for me recently and left Bahrain for Dubai was asked at every checkpoint whether she was Shi’a or Sunni. The Shi’as were taken out of the car and beaten and the Sunnis were allowed to progress.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way, and the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition for answering many of the concerns, worries and fears that my constituents expressed to me over the weekend. I say that as someone who played a small part in the no-fly zone over northern Iraq that lasted the best part of a decade. Does my hon. Friend agree that those fears, worries and uncertainties about the future are the legacy of Iraq?

[Mr Wallace]

I agree with my hon. Friend. It is all about trust, and we therefore need an element of transparency, and to demonstrate in the region how we are implementing the UN resolution as a way of keeping that trust and that broad support for the resolution. To lose that would be a backward step.

We need to bear in mind some questions in the next few days and weeks as we progress towards implementing the resolution. We need to ask ourselves and think through—perhaps in private but often in public—what happens if the rebels counter-attack. In wars, atrocities happen on both sides. What is our position? The resolution is about protecting civilians—that is our first and foremost duty. We must ask ourselves whether we are in danger of being manipulated by some groups. Are they using “one infidel against another”? Do people want democracy or a totalitarian state? What role can we play as a broad coalition to ensure that they follow the path of liberal democracy and tolerance?

Do we want regime change? Is that perhaps the inevitable end of the Gaddafi regime? Is Gaddafi himself a target? Speaking personally, I believe that Gaddafi is the same brutal mass murderer that he always was. He is the man who blew up Pan Am in the 1980s, armed the IRA in Northern Ireland and is responsible for the death of Yvonne Fletcher. We cannot teach old dogs new tricks, and some questions need to be answered about how we have got so far down the road as to allow an emboldened Gaddafi to be in his current position.

In the 13 years of the previous Government, there were some concerns about how the Foreign Office did its job. From time to time, we did not think through the problems. Let us remember that the Foreign Office recommended more deals with Gaddafi, and that some of us spoke out against that in the previous Parliament and before. Some of us said that Mr Gaddafi could not be trusted. Now we discover that the weapons of mass destruction deal—the deal that we were told in 2003 was the reason for bringing him in from the cold—was not honoured by Colonel Gaddafi. He kept some of his mustard gas, and the Foreign Office failed to inform us of that. If Mr Gaddafi is to go, he will not be missed by the House, but we should also ask ourselves whether he is the point of the exercise.

We should not forget the role that the modern age—the internet—has played in the revolution as it blows through the middle east. In 2009 in Iran, Twitter and Facebook empowered people on the streets. The movement will go from Libya to other places. However, let us not forget that every country in the middle east is unique. Factors such as Islam, sects, tribes, tradition and history should affect not only what happens on the ground but how we respond to the threat and to people who may be suppressed. We need to learn the lessons of history and remember that what we do today will have a ripple effect.

I do not envy the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary in the next stage of the challenge. Our action in Libya will ripple through the middle east. It may point in the right direction and lead the middle east into a more democratic, liberal environment. If we get it wrong—and it is a great gamble—we could end up with a middle east in the hands of Islamic fundamentalists and a less, not more, tolerant middle east. I wish the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary well in all that they do to try to ensure the right direction. It is time again to play the great game that we used to play so well rather than settle for the tactical, short-term policies of the past 13 years.

Treatment of Detainees

Ben Wallace Excerpts

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I have only been doing this job for a few weeks, and I am very happy to look at that issue. I know that it has been discussed before. Can we change the nature of the Intelligence and Security Committee? Can we help it to do its job even better? I am very happy to look at that. However, I do not think for a moment that we should believe that the ISC should be doing this piece of work. For public confidence, and for independence from Parliament, party and Government, it is right to have a judge-led inquiry. I say to Opposition Members who take a different view that these events relate to 2002-03. If the ISC was the right answer, why on earth did it not come up with it in the previous years?

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

The gathering of intelligence is not the same as the gathering of evidence: sometimes intelligence is required much more urgently and in a hostile environment. Could the Prime Minister give the House an assurance that after the inquiry is over, he will think very carefully before reintroducing any extra guidelines or regulations for our intelligence services that might prevent them from doing the job that they do so well at the moment?

[The Prime Minister]

I know that my hon. Friend has experience of these issues and thinks about them a lot. All I would say is that there is no doubt that there are serious allegations about what happened in the past. I do not want to pre-empt the report, but one thing that it needs to do is ask how we stop such things happening in future. One way to stop them is by having better guidance, so that our security services have a clearer understanding of what is and is not acceptable. That is not easy, and inevitably some people will say that the guidance is quite bureaucratic. I totally accept and understand that, but we have to have some way of trying to prevent what happened from happening again.

Saville Inquiry

Ben Wallace Excerpts

Tuesday 15th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Gentleman served with great distinction as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and I know his commitment to the Province and to the peace process. He is right to say that the peace process still needs to be given our priority. I was keen to get to every part of the United Kingdom within the first 10 days or so of becoming Prime Minister, and I did go to Northern Ireland, where I met party leaders, the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would agree, as a former Secretary of State, that it is important for us to give responsibility to our Secretaries of State and to ensure that, in the first instance, they are leading the process and making sure that the peace process moves forward—it is moving forward. It has been challenged many times over the past decade, and I am sure that today will be another fresh challenge. But I hope that the way that people respond to this report will make sure that, as I said in my statement, we can draw an end to this very painful chapter in Northern Ireland’s history.

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

Every soldier should be responsible for what actions he takes through the sight of a gun and every officer must bear responsibility for individual orders that they give, as must members of the IRA and other terrorist organisations. What steps will the Prime Minister take to make sure that the Saville inquiry report is used to draw a line under the past and ensure that peace remains in Northern Ireland, and is not used as a tool for propaganda by politicians to hit each other over the head with?

[The Prime Minister]

First, I know that my hon. Friend served in Northern Ireland in the Army, and I pay tribute to that. I think that how people respond will be a matter for them. I cannot stop people—as he put it —hitting themselves or indeed even each other over the head with this report. What I hope can happen as a result of today, given the clarity of the report and the lack of equivocation, is that whatever side of the arguments or whatever side people have been on, they will be able to draw a line under what happened and recognise that very bad things happened on that day; it was not justified and it was not justifiable, and there is no point quibbling or arguing with that. As I said, of course people in Northern Ireland will go on looking back to the past, because of the painful memories and also because of the information that has not yet come out, but at the same time as doing that it must be possible to look to the future. In my view, Northern Ireland has a very bright future.