Europe
Ben Gummer Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
It is, of course, courteous to welcome the Foreign Secretary to the Front Bench, and indeed back to Britain. I am sure it was more agreeable celebrating Hillary Clinton’s time in office last night than watching those on the Opposition Benches celebrate the vote he chose to miss.
The right hon. Gentleman’s speech was, as ever, amusing, but rather less enlightening in terms of its principles, and I will speak about that in a minute. This debate is taking place in the context not just of a speech made last week but of some figures. On Friday it was confirmed by the Office for National Statistics that the United Kingdom economy shrank by 0.3% in the last quarter, and last week we learned that throughout 2012 the UK economy did not grow at all. Unemployment is high.
Mr Alexander
No, it is important the hon. Gentleman listens. I will make a little progress and then I will happily take some interventions.
Unemployment today is high, borrowing is rising and growth is flatlining. The International Monetary Fund is worried, credit rating agencies are concerned, and the British public are anxious. It tells us all we need to know about the Government’s focus that against such a backdrop they chose to call a general debate in Government time not on the economy, but on Europe.
Mr Douglas Alexander
Let me make a little more progress.
The Prime Minister has repeatedly talked about bringing back EU social and employment laws. On 15 November 2005, he said:
“I want, as a strategic imperative, to take back from the European Union social and employment legislation.”
He gave no qualification of that statement. The Foreign Secretary has often singled out the EU’s fisheries policy. He has said he “deplored” it, but was rather more measured in his response to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). The Foreign Secretary has also said that he has
“long argued that far greater control over fisheries should pass back to national and regional bodies.”—[Official Report, 16 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 199.]
He has been equally explicit on justice and home affairs. On 16 June 2008, he said:
“The whole area of justice and home affairs…should be matters for individual nations.”
However, the Prime Minister seems to have misplaced his shopping list on the way to delivering his speech last week. All he said on the matter was this:
“we need to examine whether the balance is right in so many areas where the European Union has legislated including on the environment, social affairs and crime.”
The words “employment law” did not feature in his speech; fisheries were mentioned only in passing; there was not a single reference to the common agricultural policy or agriculture; the word “repatriation” was never mentioned; and he did not even utter the term “opt-out”. He promised his Back Benchers chunks of red meat and instead delivered a text full of tofu. The reason he chose only to serve up the vegetarian option last Wednesday is that before, during and after the Prime Minister’s speech a couple of truths endure: the impression of unity can only be achieved through the device of obscurity, and the gap between what the Conservative Back Benchers will demand and what the European Union can deliver remains simply unbridgeable.
Ben Gummer
The right hon. Gentleman is proceeding elegantly, which is characteristic, but this is a general debate on the matter of Europe. We have a settled position on the Conservative Benches—[Laughter.] Well, we do, and we are still waiting and looking forward to hearing the opinion of Her Majesty’s Opposition, were they to come into government in two years’ time.
Mr Alexander
The hon. Gentleman did his best to read the Whips’ brief with a degree of conviction, but the idea that there is a settled position is risible. The only attempt to try and find common ground is on the basis of obscurity. The Prime Minister cannot level with his Back Benchers, and he cannot level with European leaders. That is why he has tried to avoid making the speech for the past year. It is not that he does not have talented speechwriters, it is that he did not know what to say. He does not know how to reconcile the demands of his Back Benchers with the needs of the country, and the Foreign Secretary demonstrated the same thing today.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
What a refreshing change to be in the Chamber today, having this interesting, broad and generous discussion about the European Union, which is so different from many such debates that I have watched remotely or participated in in my short time here. The same is no doubt true for other Members. The mood has changed, and the reason why is the Prime Minister’s speech last week. The greatest service that his speech has done not only to the country but to the European debate is that it has allowed us, at last, to open up this debate properly. It has allowed the full spectrum of belief and thinking—on both sides of the House—to find its voice and come alive, and with a graciousness that we have not had in such debates for many decades. That is a good thing, because this debate is too important for us to allow it to become reconciled only through rancour. We have to approach it afresh. The British public are tired, frustrated and irritated with this discussion and we need to have it in a new way that gets to the heart of the matter.
That was why I was so pleased with the way in which the Prime Minister opened his speech last Wednesday. It began, so importantly, by dealing with the historical context, which we have not discussed properly in this Chamber for many years. When we have been discussing the minutiae of European treaties, we have forgotten the reason for Europe, why this country is a member of the European Union and why so many of its other members care so deeply about the political consequences of this great community, which has done so much, with NATO, to forge a peace since the second world war. It has been the longest peace that the continent has enjoyed in its modern history.
As Tomas Masaryk so memorably said, our continent is
“a laboratory atop a vast graveyard”.
It behoves us not to forget that although we have found peace within the continent during the past 60 years, the edges of our continent are as dangerous, as vociferous and as potentially alive to crisis and trauma as they have been at any point in the past five or six centuries. Furthermore, we have to be alive to the fact that, as the Prime Minister said, our relationship with the European Union is peculiarly British; a golden thread runs from the very first engagement that we had in our modern history—the Norman conquest—all the way through to now, and it is peculiarly English. That has stamped its mark on the relationship between Great Britain—and then the United Kingdom—and Europe. Even in that prototype of European summitry at the field of the cloth of gold, which the Minister will know of far better than I do, the discussions between the delegations contained many of the same tensions that we see now in European summitry and in the discussions that he has to have on a weekly basis on our behalf.
None of that is to say that other nations in the European Union do not have their own peculiar, individual, unique relationships with other member states; for the Finns, for the Spanish, for the Italians and for the Germans these relationships are very special. So we are not in a unique position in encountering a difficult or particularly interesting relationship with our fellow member states; the relationship is made different by the great ditch that lies between us, but we still have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that other nation states also have these peculiar interests.
The Prime Minister recognised not only that changing relationship with the European Union, but the changing demos of the European Union. We would do well not to forget that the demos is changing in our own country, too. This is a remarkable moment for us and for our nation and, I would propose, for reform of the European Union. I am glad that the tone has changed as a result of his new beginning last week.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
Throughout the debate, we have been asked to consider the choice between optimism and pessimism and between certainty and uncertainty. It is clear to me, however, that the people on the Opposition Benches who would call themselves optimists are so optimistic about the benefits of the European Union that they do not want an open debate with the British people in which they get to have their say. Those Opposition Members complain that the uncertainty of the referendum period is damaging, but will not give us any certainty about whether they support having a referendum now or at any point in the future.
The debate today, and the debate that the Prime Minister has rightly started, is about our bottom line. What do we want from the European Union if we are to maintain our membership? What case will we put to the British people in the referendum campaign based on what we have renegotiated? Without certainty, without a bottom line and without the referendum, there is a danger that the debate will carry on for ever. Britain and other member states will grumble about the EU and what they do and do not get out of it, but there will never be clarity about what we want to get back, what we think is the best deal for Britain and whether we should consider that our national interest is better served by considering a future outside the EU. If someone has a negotiating position, they have to consider walking away from the table if they cannot get what they want; otherwise they are never taken seriously. That is the story of the Labour Government: they gave away Britain’s opt-out on social policy and £7 billion of our rebate and got nothing in return. Their rhetoric about Britain being at the heart of Europe was exactly that: a rhetorical position, totally meaningless. We got nothing out of Tony Blair’s positioning himself at the centre of a grand European stage—nothing that could be shown to be of any real benefit to the British people.
Following the Prime Minister’s speech, the German newspaper Bild wrote that:
“Most EU countries have tacitly agreed to build Europe above the heads of the people. Motto: The European project is simply too important for democratic participation. And then along comes this Cameron!”
That is exactly what the Prime Minister has done: he has demonstrated that we can have an open debate about Britain’s future in the European Union and put it to the people. If we start that national conversation, ultimately we will have a clear view and an answer, and an end to the debate.
There has been considerable discussion of the European social model and what reforms we would want. We certainly see the case for nation states and national Parliaments making decisions in that area. I believe that the social model of Europe has to be reformed if Europe is to be competitive in an increasingly competitive world, and that view has been expressed by a number of my right hon. and hon. Friends. It was also expressed by Tony Blair in an interview in Der Spiegel this week, but although, “We want reform—reform of social policy,” are fine words, if you do not have a clear view of what you want and do not back it up with a referendum, you will not get what you want. The reason countries such as Ireland could negotiate after their people originally said no to the Lisbon treaty is that they had a clear, definitive position as a country. The European Commission had to deal with them because they had the power to bring down the entire treaty; that was the strength they had in that negotiation. We have to learn from that.
We have to take a simple and pragmatic view of what is in our national interest. Britain, like Germany, is seeing its exports grow not within the EU, but in the growing consumer economies around the world. Brazil, Russia, India, China and Indonesia—those are the growing developing markets and we cannot ignore that. Neither can Europe ignore the fact that one of the reasons for the debt crisis is that the European model has been too expensive and the wealth generated by the European Union has not been enough to sustain it. That is a lesson we have to learn.
Ben Gummer
Does my hon. Friend agree that EU reform will result in that market itself growing, which will enable us to expand our exports into the EU?
Damian Collins
My hon. Friend makes an important point. That is why a reformed Europe—more liberal, more open and more competitive—is something we all want and would all work towards achieving.
We should realise that even if, at the end of the process, the British people decide that our future lies outside the EU—Britain could decide to leave; that is in the gift of the British people and this Parliament—we cannot abolish the European Union. It is a fact of life and it will continue to work in its own way. It is inevitable that the eurozone countries will see closer co-ordinated integration as part of the solution to the crisis in the eurozone, but it is clear that we will never be part of that inner core. There has to be a view of what Europe means for countries that are not only not in the eurozone, but have no desire ever to be in the eurozone, and what their relationship is with the EU.
My constituency, other than that of my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), is about the closest to the continent of Europe. From Folkestone, we can see France clearly, and the channel tunnel at Folkestone is a direct link to the continent. Our business links and our trade through the ferry ports of Kent and through the tunnel will continue. Companies’ investments, such as that of EDF in the cross-channel electricity pipe and Dungeness nuclear power station in my constituency, will continue. They make those investments because it makes business sense for them; they are not doing us a favour because we are in the European Union. Those pragmatic business decisions will continue to be taken because Britain is an open, low-tax, competitive economy with a very large consumer market, which is attractive to investors.
Andrea Leadsom
My right hon. Friend makes a good point. Clearly, as part of a newly negotiated relationship with Brussels, it will be important for Britain to bring back significant powers. At the same time, the EU is set to change itself. It is already changing significantly, and changing in ways that already benefit Britain. Just one example is the eurozone’s decision to create a single regulator for eurozone financial institutions, and the recognition that in doing so there was the potential for member states to caucus against non-euro members. It has been agreed, at the request of Britain and other non-euro member states, to have a double majority, so that eurozone members cannot exclude non-euro countries from having a say in a vote. That is an important, game-changing precedent that points the way to a future for the European Union. There is a group of eurozone members that need to move towards a country called Europe where they underwrite one another’s debts and move to a federal united states of Europe. At the same time, there can be another very strong group of non-euro member countries that can find a different path. The Fresh Start project, which I was closely involved in establishing 18 months ago, has recently recommended a number of reforms. I hope that the Government will take close account of its recommendations.
Ben Gummer
Does my hon. Friend not agree that that does not necessarily preclude closer co-operation in some areas? For example, a single sex offenders register across the European Union is necessary to stop some of the outrages that some of us have seen in our constituencies. People have come in unchecked and have committed crimes.
Andrea Leadsom
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. It is essential that Britain co-operate fully with the EU on matters of crime and policing. I will come on to that, because it is one of the recommendations in the Fresh Start manifesto that Britain repatriate its competency in that area. In other words, Britain can envisage a scenario where we co-operate fully with the EU, but do not necessarily have to opt in to directives that cannot then be changed under qualified majority voting and are subject to European Court of Justice oversight. It is perfectly possible for Britain to repatriate crime and policing without having to give up its sovereignty in that area.
European Union Bill
Ben Gummer Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Martin Horwood
I am not sure that we have a party policy on nakedness in general—although I shall certainly consult my colleagues on that.
I shall not detain the House long, but it seems clear that the new clause would result in the undermining of the British interest in terms of ministerial participation in negotiations. There may be measures that should be introduced to add more transparency and openness to the EU at Commission level, and certainly at Council of Ministers level, and I am sure that I, and Liberal Democrat Euro MPs and Members of this Parliament, would be sympathetic to them. There may even be methods that we should explore similar to the Finnish model about which we have heard so much. Those would also be greeted with a lot of sympathy, but the new clause would not deliver any of those things, so I am afraid that hon. Members should throw it out.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) reminded us that the purpose of the new clause is to deal with the manifest lack of trust that the public have in the negotiation, on behalf of the British public, of grave constitutional issues in the European Council and elsewhere. The new clause would itself introduce a considerable constitutional change, and I hope that hon. Members will allow me to say that I would find that not a necessarily unhappy change, but a change none the less. That is the fact that, heretofore, Ministers of the Crown negotiated and treated on behalf of the British people and of the Crown, and Parliament, if it saw fit, studied the results of that treaty after the event.
That is not necessarily a good way for Ministers to discuss the nation’s interests in the councils of the world, but it is the situation as it stands. I would suggest, therefore, that if we are to see a change to that protocol—as was, to a degree, anticipated by the previous Government in their discussions on the royal prerogative—it may be appropriate to consider in the round the other international bodies and instruments to which we are party, and not just our relationship with the EU.
Hon. Members have rightly said that the EU is of considerable concern to many of our constituents. It is, but so are our World Trade Organisation negotiations. The EU has not yet created a riot on the streets outside Parliament—not yet, at least—yet a few years ago we had the anti-globalisation riots, which arose directly out of our negotiations in the WTO.
Mr Davidson
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that our constituents generally take European matters much more seriously than almost any other international matter? Proof of that is the fact that in the Barnsley by-election, the UK Independence party managed to beat the Conservatives. What does that say about public confidence in the Conservatives’ position on Europe?
Ben Gummer
The hon. Gentleman has made a powerful point, but the public often have interests beyond the European Union. So far they have created a riot on trade issues. I happen not to agree with what the rioters were doing or with their motives, but the matter raises extreme passion among our constituents. Members know perfectly well that we are regularly written to by people who are concerned about globalisation and world trade rules. Our negotiations in the Security Council are another case in point. We as a nation are currently discussing Libya, a matter of considerable concern to our constituents. Perhaps we could have an understanding of the Government’s negotiating position on that, so that we might study and better understand what the Government plan to do.
Our constituents have considerable concerns about security matters with the United States, Commonwealth allies and other partners. I have been written to far more often about our security co-operation arrangements with other nations than about the European Union. Here, too, it might be appropriate for the House to have some sort of structure, such as that proposed by my hon. Friends the Members for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) and for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), whereby we see what the Government propose, in anticipation of their negotiating.
In the matter of declaring war, the House had a cursory and temporary assessment of the merits of conducting war against Iraq. It is shameful that even the papers relating to that cannot be released to the Iraq inquiry so that we might see the decision-making moments that happened in that most extraordinary and important decision that the House and the Government have taken in the past decade.
Although I support the broad thrust of the new clause, it would be more appropriate to consider all the international organs and bodies on which we sit, and to do so on the basis of a much wider consideration of the constitutional powers that our Ministers wield when they are negotiating and treating on our behalf.
Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
I think my hon. Friend is making a strong case for a full and wide review of the royal prerogative. Is that what he is arguing for?
Ben Gummer
My right hon. Friend has expressed that with much greater concision than I have managed, and embarrassed me in the process.
There is so much concision in the new clause that it is difficult to understand precisely what the proposers are getting at. It says that the papers relating to the negotiations should be released
“during negotiation of the treaty or decision.”
One of the proposers, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), related the negotiation of the European working time directive and the fact that it took from 1992 to 1999 to make that decision. At which point during that long negotiation would the papers relating to it be released to the House? If released after the negotiation had been concluded in 1999, would they have helped to understand the Government’s position in 1992?
Ms Gisela Stuart
The release of the papers would indeed have helped. The subsequent interpretation of the working time directive and the detail of how it should operate by the Court of Justice would have made it clear that none of the Governments involved in the original negotiations had intended certain interpretations to be made. That would have strengthened the House’s hand in saying, “No, that’s not what was intended, even by our Ministers.”
Ben Gummer
The hon. Lady has clarified that beautifully. It argues for wider consideration of such issues in the kind of structure anticipated by my hon. Friends and the process in Finland that she described.
There is a broader transparency that the House enjoys, which is to put to the electorate a manifesto at the time of elections. In the past 10 years a party has put forward a manifesto proposing a referendum on the European constitution, lately called the Lisbon treaty, yet that referendum was never granted. The purpose of this Bill is to ensure that such mendacity cannot be repeated. I therefore propose that the new clause be advanced at a later stage and on a wider basis, but I support the broader purposes of the Bill.
Laura Sandys
Does my hon. Friend agree that taking that proposal forward and evolving it over the next couple of years and months must be done on a multilateral basis, not a unilateral UK basis?
Ben Gummer
My hon. Friend makes an important point, because it is patently obvious how difficult it is for the United States, our ally, to negotiate at the moment, following the unilateral release of its documents to the world’s media, which was not its choice. If this is to be done, clearly it must be on a multilateral basis, especially with our key allies in the Commonwealth and the United States, as well as those in Europe.
I support the main aims of the Bill. I am greatly attracted to the thrust of the new clause, but I suspect that it would have more power and greater reach if it were advanced at a different stage and on a wider basis.
Mr Buckland
I want to make a few brief remarks about what is, on the face of it, a very laudable new clause. It is proposed by a number of Members whose reputations for seeking more openness in the transactions of government precede them. However, I hesitate to support it for several reasons, many of which have been ably outlined by other Members during the debate. In an intervention, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) really got to the heart of one problem with the terminology used in the new clause, particularly the word “relevant”, which is used in subsections (1) and (2).
Mr Buckland
His excellent speech; I am happy to be corrected. My hon. Friend the Member for Dover made an important and helpful analogy between the negotiations that he as a lawyer would conduct on behalf of his clients and the work of Ministers representing this country in the Council of Ministers and in other European institutions. He quite rightly said that it would be—I paraphrase somewhat—rather absurd for him to be forced to reveal to his opponents his entire menu of options during a negotiation.
I adopt that analogy but take it one stage further: it would be even more absurd for my hon. Friend, as a lawyer justifying his decision to his clients, then to be forced to disclose not only the documents that he generated as a result of his negotiation, but the documents generated by his opponents. That would potentially prejudice not only his position but that of another party to the negotiations. Indeed, I am sure that he took part in negotiations with more than one party.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ben Gummer Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Mr Hague
Yes, we have to adjust the spending totals from time to time—the change will be from £18 million to £16 million—because some programmes are coming to their natural end, and because I want to ensure that we can keep the current level of resources for counter-terrorist co-operation, which stand at £38 million and are focused predominantly on Afghanistan. We always have difficult choices to make on spending, but there is a natural evolution in our counter-narcotics work which means that some programmes are coming to their end.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
2. What recent assessment he has made of progress in the middle east peace process; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
Negotiations are the only way to achieve the national aspirations of both the Palestinians and the Israelis. We are deeply concerned about the breakdown in talks, and we are working closely with the United States and the European Union to see a return to direct negotiations. I hope that the Quartet meeting on 5 February will be clear that negotiations must resume quickly. The entire international community, including the United States, should support 1967 borders as being the basis for resumed negotiations. The result should be two states, with Jerusalem as the future capital of both, and a fair settlement for refugees.
Ben Gummer
I thank the Foreign Secretary for that answer. I hope he shares the excitement of many people in this country at seeing people stand up to one-party rule in Tunisia and Egypt. Will he explain what steps the Government are taking to encourage the spread of democracy—not just in the middle east, but in north Africa?
European Union Bill
Ben Gummer Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Andrew Percy
I stand corrected. Many of my constituents who took part in that referendum, including my own parents—at least one of them was sound enough to vote no—tell me that it was not what they voted for. My hon. Friend is entirely right to correct me.
My generation has had no opportunity through the ballot box to express a view on whether we should remain a member of the European Union, because broadly speaking both parties have always supported membership. My view is firm—I do not think that we should remain a member—but I am not arrogant enough to suggest that it is for me to dictate to the British public. I simply want the British public at some point to have a say on whether we should remain a member of what has become a very interesting institution—as one hon. Member called it.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
Over the past few days, I have had nearly 100 e-mails and letters about forests, but since 7 May I have not had a single letter or e-mail about withdrawal from the European Union. This debate shows the difference of opinion across the country, and the genius and magic of this place that it matches Members so closely to their constituents in their passions and needs.
Andrew Percy
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I would be happy to take him to Goole, where he could talk to people in my community who are concerned about the large amount of immigration resulting from our membership.
European Union Bill
Ben Gummer Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Mr MacShane
May we bring an end to these individual cases from right hon. and hon. Members?
I am glad that the “costa del crime” has been shut down thanks to enhanced European co-operation. I put it to hon. Members on both sides that in a few years’ time it might be to our country’s advantage to have an effective prosecutor’s office working to ensure that the people whom we bring to justice can face inquiry and remedy. I accept that the Bill will pass, but I am nervous about saying to our European colleagues, “Forget that idea, because we will have to have a referendum on it first.” I do not want to use hyperbole, but were I a trafficker or someone who did not want to be brought to justice on a trans-frontier basis, I would be quite happy to see a referendum take place before effective action could be taken against me.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
As it happens, the European arrest warrant has recently been of great use to one of my constituents who had suffered a grave injustice in Spain, which is an argument in favour of the European arrest warrant. We have also heard some arguments against it, but these are all arguments that can be put to the British people. We can have a mature debate in front of them. Why does the right hon. Gentleman oppose that?
Mr MacShane
That takes us into a slightly broader aspect of the debate, where there are differences between us. I started my political life campaigning in pubs and elsewhere against the demand, which was very prevalent after my student days, that there should be a referendum on capital punishment. Again and again, the cry is for a referendum, and we heard it in health questions today, when it was asked whether we could have a referendum on NHS reforms. I do not think that any hon. Member on the Government Benches would give a fleeting thought to that proposition, but if a referendum on a public prosecutor’s office is good, why is a referendum on something that will impact far more directly on the British people—namely the Government’s proposals to change significantly the way that our health service is delivered—not good?
Mr MacShane
If the hon. Gentleman and every other hon. Member had remained seated, rather than jumping up and insisting on making interventions, I would have sat down about 10 minutes ago. [Hon. Members: “No!”] I am hearing cries for me to go on and on—I do not think that anything similar is happening in the other place—but I will sit down in due course.
I have no intention of filibustering; I have come here to make the point that remains at the heart of the Bill. That is that no Minister of the Crown—whether of this Administration, a Lib Dem Administration or, in four and a half years’ time, when my right hon. Friends are on the Government Front Bench, a Labour Administration—is going to sign either a brand new treaty or a significant amendment that so unacceptably transfers authority and power away from this House and the Government of the nation that that Minister would have to come back here and say, “We have looked at this and we are very uncertain about it. We think it is significant and we are going to give the British people a referendum on it.” “Significant” is the key adjective in this regard.
That shows the intellectual dishonesty at the heart of all these debates. The Bill is being introduced simply because the Conservative part of the Government could not honour its commitment to have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, could not repatriate any powers and could not alter the existing treaties. Because the Conservatives are locked into their coalition agreement with the Lib Dems, the only reflection of five years of consistent, campaigning Euroscepticism they can offer to the British people is this Bill. I accept that it reflects the prevailing mood among the largest single party, the Conservative party. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have campaigned consistently on Eurosceptic themes.
Mr MacShane
I will not give way. The hon. Gentleman will make his points in due course.
In opposition, it was possible for the Conservatives to campaign as Eurosceptics, but they cannot but govern as Euro-realists. This we have seen in whole range of—
Austin Mitchell
I agree absolutely, and that line in the sand is here. Actually, it has to be a line in the concrete, because we cannot go on making contributions under article 122, which is meant for another purpose entirely.
Ben Gummer
Notwithstanding our treaty obligations, it seems to me that the hon. Gentleman is getting hung up on article 122. Is he really arguing that even if it were in our economic interest to support the bail-out of a country whose trade with us means that intervention is necessary, he would still oppose it?
Stephen Gilbert
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As a loyal subject of the Crown, I am equally pleased to be a citizen of the EU.
I will finish with some brief comments on amendments 8 and 79, which deal with the notion of a referendum lock on giving further financial aid to countries other than Ireland—an issue on which the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) and I have just engaged. If the amendments are passed, they would damage diplomatic relations, delay the EU in helping struggling economies and potentially deny to the UK the same kind of benefits that Ireland has had in the past.
I want to make it clear that the Liberal Democrats support the Bill: it is about reconnecting the British people with the European issue; about saying that over the next five years, there will be no further transfer of powers and competences; about putting that commitment in law; and about raising the benchmark significantly higher than it has been to date.
Ben Gummer
I had many comments to make but, happily, my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) has covered much of the ground I wanted to cover. I shall therefore be quite brief. Yesterday, in a memorable speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) described the Bill as the William Cash memorial Bill. Although I would not like to use such lapidary language with regard to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone, it is certainly a memorial in the sense that all that he has done over the years to protect the House and nation from the transference of powers to the European Union is contained within clause 6, so that it will not happen again without a referendum of the British people. I suspect that that is why my hon. Friend, whom I admire and have watched with great interest today, as a newcomer to the House, is uncertain about parts of the Bill.
Mention was made earlier of the fact that my hon. Friend’s seat is often left cold while he explains the dangers of the transference of powers. The Bill will render much of that function, which he has served with such honour over the years, no longer necessary, because it encompasses what the British people have wanted for so long, as has been pointed out by so many people in this debate, which is for the powers of Parliament to remain here and not be transferred. Whether on the euro, social policy, finance, jurisprudence or border control—all those things that he has spoken about so many times—will now sit here in statute unable to be moved to a qualified majority voting system in the Council without the matter being referred to the British people.
The Bill does not just enshrine in law the wishes of the British people over many years; it is also a testament to the intellectual coherence of the coalition’s project. It is about retaining power at the most local level possible. That does not just apply to this Parliament, but involves pushing power down to local communities wherever possible. That is why the cat-calling about the Bill from the Opposition is so misguided. They do not understand how it fits into the wider revolution being instituted by the coalition Government of bringing power as close to the people as possible. That is why I suspect they do not like it very much. It goes against everything that the Labour party believes in, which is to push power up to people who know best at all times.
We need only look at some of the comments made in this and previous debates. The right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), who is no longer in his seat, said in a previous debate on the European Union that the Bill would be a mistake because it would make it harder for Turkey to accede to the EU. Today, we heard points about the European arrest warrant—because, of course, it is he who knows best, and not the British people. Of course, it is the Opposition Front-Bench team who know best—in their minds—and not the British people.
The Temporary Chair (Mr Brady)
Order. In order to ensure that the voice of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) is picked up, may I advise him to address the microphone and the Committee more directly? That would be helpful.
Ben Gummer
I apologise, Mr Brady.
As the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) knows, my general point is that the comments that Opposition Members have made today betray the fact that they do not trust the British people with these decisions. They said, “Well, of course, we could put a whole series of things to a referendum.” But this is the point: it is about the transference not of decision making, but of powers by treaty to an outside body. Whether in their attitude to the European constitution—it is odd to try to force a constitution on the British people and a nation that does not have a constitution—or whether on the Lisbon treaty, on which a referendum was promised but not given, at every single point, the Labour party has shown its contempt for what the people want. In the course of that, it has damaged the very European project that it supports. For instance, it makes it very difficult to make the argument for the European arrest warrant—it actually helped one of my constituents in a moment of great difficulty, as I mentioned earlier—because every time it is rightly perceived to be a decision by people who think they know best but who do not trust the people with the arguments.
Emma Reynolds
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is very gracious. Is it not the case that the Conservative Government in the 1980s and 1990s agreed to massive transfers of powers, without a referendum, from Westminster to Brussels in the form of the Single European Act and the Maastricht treaty? Is it not also the case that in our lifetime—in fact, since 1973—no Conservative Government have granted the people of this country a referendum? We actually have quite a good track record on referendums in this country—we granted many on devolution and one on membership of the European Union in 1975—but no Conservative Government have ever done such a thing.
Ben Gummer
The hon. Lady, who made an excellent speech earlier—I believe—said then that she had not read the 1973 Conservative manifesto. Well, I am of a similar age—I think—and I cannot stand here and answer for the actions of previous Conservative Governments, except to say that every one of those Acts and treaties was prefigured in a Conservative party manifesto. The difference between the Labour and Conservative parties is that we were promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, but did not get one. We were also promised a referendum on the euro, which is why the relevant provision is in the Bill. Had we decided to join the euro, that referendum would never have happened, because we did not have one on the Lisbon treaty. The Labour party would have been true to form.
The hon. Lady asked what the need was for the passerelle protection in the Bill and why would we not just veto each action at the Council of Ministers. The answer is precisely this: although we can trust the coalition Government not to transfer powers, if and when the Opposition show themselves capable of government, we will not be able to trust them precisely because on two occasions they failed to do what they should have.
Emma Reynolds
First, if our Government had decided that the economic conditions were right to go into the euro, which we did not, we would have given the British people a vote on that, because it would have been a significant monetary change. On the hon. Gentleman’s second point, I did make the remarks to which he has referred, but I do not think they are as significant as he claims.
Ben Gummer
I thank the hon. Lady for that, but the British people have lost their trust in what the Opposition say on matters European. The Opposition’s only contribution to this debate is one pathetic amendment—amendment 100—which does nothing to address the needs of their constituents, providing no constructive proposal whatever, unlike so many that my hon. Friends have proposed.
Ben Gummer
I am sorry, but if the hon. Lady does not mind, I am going to wrap up now.
What the Opposition do not understand—and what I think many on the Government Benches do—is the entirely radical nature of this Bill. It will fundamentally change the relationship between the people of this country—our constituents—and the European Union, and in so doing will change the functioning of the European Union. It is without doubt one of the more exciting Bills to be put before the House by the coalition Government, and I support it wholeheartedly.
Mr Lidington
Clause 6 lists those decisions that would always require approval by an Act of Parliament and a referendum. Most of the amendments that we have been considering today seek to add new provisions to clause 6. I want to try to do justice to each amendment and to the various topics that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have raised in this debate.
Let me turn first to the issue of citizenship, which is the subject of amendment 54, as well as the consequential amendment 55, both tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall). The amendments would mean that if a decision under article 25 of the TFEU were to add to or strengthen the list of rights for citizens of member states in the European Union contained in article 20(2) of that treaty, there would have to be a referendum before the United Kingdom could agree to it. I understand my hon. Friend’s concerns, and he is right to say that the question of citizenship is important and sensitive. However, where I took issue with him was when he suggested that there was no limit to the ability of the European Union to confer new rights upon European citizens. There are a number of such limits specified in the treaties. Article 20(1) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union states:
“Every person holding the nationality of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to and not replace national citizenship.”
Article 20 also states that “rights”—that is, rights that people possess in their capacity as European Union citizens—shall be
“exercised in accordance with the conditions and limits defined by the Treaties”.
Article 25 is not a new article, but it does concern a sensitive issue, and that is why the Bill proposes to strengthen parliamentary scrutiny of this important ratchet clause and to require that an Act of Parliament be passed before a Minister could notify approval by this country of a Council decision extending the rights attaching to EU citizenship.
That is also the reason—I hope that this will give my hon. Friend some assurance—why the Bill puts a referendum lock on any proposal that the United Kingdom give up its veto over article 25. We have also put a referendum lock on any proposal that the UK should give up other vetoes in the treaty chapter on citizenship of the Union, such as its veto over the arrangements for allowing EU citizens to vote in local elections or the arrangements for allowing people to stand and vote in European parliamentary elections. However, we do not believe that we need a referendum before agreeing to legislation to strengthen or to add to the rights of citizens of member states under article 25, because such legislation can be made only within existing competence. If there were any proposal to change the treaty to extend those areas of competence on which the rights of EU citizens could be based, such a treaty change proposal would be caught automatically by clause 4 and its requirement for a referendum before any extension of or addition to European Union competence.
European Union Bill
Ben Gummer Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Charlie Elphicke
Yes, I agree. The Opposition are in a fix, and new clause 9 is designed to deal with that. On the one hand, they dare not oppose the idea in principle of a referendum and of allowing the British people to be consulted. They are slightly embarrassed by the Lisbon matter. On the other hand, they do not want to come out and say it. We have what can only be described as a devious amendment to stick it all up in committee. They claim that they are all in favour of referendums, while trying to squash the rights of the British people to have a say in a referendum. That is wrong in principle, but it indicates the Opposition’s lack of confidence in their position. It indicates that they do not feel that they are winning the debate on giving the British people a say.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
My hon. Friend should not be surprised by that, given that two Members on the Opposition Front Bench orchestrated the coup against Tony Blair, which put an unelected Prime Minister in place, much to the detriment of our nation.