Baroness Wilcox
Main Page: Baroness Wilcox (Conservative - Life peer)Consumer Rights Bill
Baroness Wilcox Excerpts
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, I strongly support this amendment. There are many good reasons to want to extend access to data for consumers of both private and public services. When Tim Berners-Lee famously invented the world wide web, he as famously said, “This is for everyone”. The use of digital products and services is something on which consumers are demanding movement, given that they observe a concentration of power over the internet in five companies globally, and have an increasing concern over the privacy of their data.
To give those consumers access to their personal data, as a starting point, is a way of giving more public reassurance about how their data are being collected and stored. It is also important in respect of innovation in the delivering of services. We have seen in public service delivery terms some of the innovation around the use of personal budgets. The ability to bring together services is an aspect that the use of personal budgets has demonstrated. That in turn can be significantly enabled by the use of personal data.
The register shows that I am the chair of the Tinder Foundation. It is nothing to do with the dating app, more to do with the organisation that runs all of the UK online centres. It is the main digital inclusion delivery organisation here in the UK. I am aware of the issues around exclusion by dint of access to technology and access to age; but I am also aware of some of the extraordinary stories of how people using data and using technology are able to join services together and improve their own personal outcomes.
I am also deputy chair of the Nominet Trust, which is a trust funded by Nominet, which registers domain names, to invest in social innovation, and I see some of the extraordinary innovation that is starting to come through from, largely, the voluntary sector, but also the private sector and just occasionally the public sector. It is that innovation that I am particularly keen to see. So I am delighted to see in this new schedule a section around access to information on public services.
If, for example, I had a chronic health condition and I went to see my GP, it would be great if the GP could say, “License to me just for five minutes, so I can put them through this digital tool, your shopping data from, say, Tesco, along with some of your health data, and some of your housing data”. The GP could see my lifestyle through the temporary licensing of personal data and then be able to give a much more accurate diagnosis of what was going on, how I might make some lifestyle changes and perhaps reduce my reliance on prescription drugs because some other behavioural changes can have a better outcome than use of those drugs. Similarly, I can see how advisers working for Jobcentre Plus could join up data on a temporary basis and provide a much more personalised service for people. Also, when I look at the GOV.UK site for its explanation of midata, it gives the important reason of improving buying choices for consumers as one of the reasons why it has set up midata.
This amendment is exceptionally modest in what it asks the Government to do. It is asking the Government merely to report. It is not really asking the Government to do very much except tell us what is going on. In that respect it is highly flexible; it accepts that there may implicitly be some burdens on small and medium-sized enterprises and that the Government will need to tell us which regulated persons should provide consumer data—so it is perfectly reasonable in the way that it has been drafted. It is the natural next step on from the Data Protection Act to the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act of last year that we should be pushing further on this. These digital services are moving extremely quickly, and it is important that this Parliament shows the same agility that is being shown in the outside world. I strongly support these amendments.
Baroness Wilcox (Con)
I found it quite frightening listening to what the noble Lord was saying there. That sounded like the beginning of a great fire that he was putting his foot into. I go to my doctor and give him permission to find out data from me: where I shop, where I do this, where I do that. It is a simple thing to say, but where does it move next? I go to my moneylender and he says, “Well, tell me about this, give me permission to see that”. This sounds terribly frightening to me.
Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes
On the same point, I am appalled at what is being proposed for doctors. As things are, they never look at their patients any more. They screw up their eyes and look at the screen; they cannot see the current condition of their patient. On a very good World Service programme a little while ago, three people were interviewed about the medical profession. One very prominent doctor in America, who had previously been in the deepest jungles, said that doctors in America could not compete with those in the jungles because they knew their patients and their patients’ background and did not sit staring at a screen instead of at the patient.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
The noble Baronesses articulate concerns that I know are active, and they do a great job in doing so. I am not suggesting that doctors should have rights to any of that data but that it would be up to the individual patient as to whether they temporarily license that data, to assist—
Baroness Wilcox
A patient who has gone to a doctor is more than likely not feeling well and is frightened and looking for any help they can get. It is so easy to say yes and to open up that can. It is such a dangerous subject to put in as a lightweight amendment to a Bill like this.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, I was using an example that I thought was perfectly realistic. We have seen with the furore around how care data have been handled or mishandled by the Government that the subject of health data is very sensitive, so perhaps I should have used a different example. However, personally, I am of the view that there are times when I want people who are advising me and the professionals assisting me to have rich sources of information about me and my condition, and that is a decision that I can make.
We need all to ensure that we are properly informed as consumers—and this legislation is trying to do that. To me, data are not a scary thing as long as we have proper individual rights over them. What scares me is that I cannot see what data people have about me and I cannot see how other people are using them. I may have some rights through the Data Protection Act but that does not give me any rights to see digital data. It gives me rights to see things on paper. Tesco can come and deliver in a pantechnicon all the data that it has about me, but I cannot then manipulate the data, which is in the end what I would really like—the ability to see them, manipulate them and then decide what I want. There are examples where you might want to use some of your data and license them on a temporary basis to people who then advise you so that they can better personalise their services. But that is a debate that this House should and I am sure will have.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I should add that this is not simply about protecting the consumer—poor Dave, or whoever else it might be. It is also about protecting the legitimate businesses that are operating properly, because it makes it more difficult for those trying to pull a fast one on Dave or anybody else, because they will not get away with it. For that reason, to protect the consumer and legitimate businesses, I hope that we get some progress on this amendment.
Baroness Wilcox
I shall make only a brief comment because I want to hear what the Minister is going to say. It would be useful to reflect upon the fact that the National Consumer Federation is the only consumer organisation in the country that is not supplied with money from anyone other than its members. It is a small organisation that was set up originally by the National Consumer Council and Which? because they wanted a grassroots response rather than simply remain in their ivory towers writing their great papers. I was the chairman, then my noble friend Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, followed by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who took it to greater heights. For a small group like that to have got as many people into this Room as there are at this moment says good things about our country and about our consumer representation. There is always a place for a small group which can get someone like my noble friend Lady Oppenheim-Barnes to take it forward. I am very proud that she has done so.
Baroness King of Bow
My Lords, I support Amendment 51 tabled in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, and my noble friend Lord Whitty. My Amendments 48B and 50G were spoken to last Wednesday, but they were originally grouped with Amendment 51. I know that the Committee is pushed for time, so I will not repeat in detail the arguments that we had around point of sale. Suffice it to say that if consumers do not have clear and transparent information, their consumer rights are effectively undermined. That is the crux of the matter and it is the argument which has been made again now.
This is an amendment essentially to ban smoke and mirrors and to ensure that consumers actually get their rights in practice as well as in theory. The noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, said how deeply held her feelings are on this matter, and she is quite right. We have to get the basics right. To my mind, this amendment will serve to do just that. Without the basics, consumers will not have their rights safeguarded. For those reasons, we are delighted to support this amendment.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, very briefly, I support this amendment. Subsection (2) says:
“It shall be the duty of consumer regulators to promote the rights of consumers”.
I have been looking at the duties of Ofwat, the water regulator. It says that,
“our primary duties are to: … protect the interests of consumers, wherever appropriate by promoting competition … ensure that the companies properly carry out their functions … ensure that the companies can finance their functions”,
and,
“ensure long-term resilience”.
In the case of Thames Water, which is the biggest water utility, the regulator over the past 10 years has allowed the company to reduce its asset base to about a quarter of what it was, so it cannot now finance the tunnel that it wants to built under the Thames—the Thames tideway tunnel—without going into a kind of complex financial structure involving a separate infrastructure provider. The relationship between the infrastructure provider and Thames Water is extremely unclear. Who is liable if something goes wrong? That is also unclear, but the Government have been very nice and given them a guarantee if they run into financial trouble, because the provider is Macquarie Bank—and we would not want it to get into financial trouble, would we?
The extraordinary thing is that the regulator seems to think that this does not need any questioning or that any information should be given to the 12 million customers of Thames Water who are going to have to pay. There is a debate about how much they are going to have to pay a year, but it will be somewhere between £60 and £80 extra. This is a sewage charge, but all the people living in Oxford, Witney, Newbury or anywhere which is part of the group, even though they are not going to benefit from the Thames tideway tunnel, will have to pay. I think the regulator has been asleep on the job.
This amendment should make things better, but Ofwat already has a primary duty to protect the interests of customers, and it is clearly not doing so. Therefore, this amendment, if it is accepted by the Government, should put more pressure on it and some of the other utilities to do what they should do: to look at the needs of the customers, see whether there is an alternative and keep customers informed about what is going on. It is a good amendment and it will be interesting to hear what the Minister says in response.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, as we know the regulators were set up at very different times and in very different ways. There is not one thing that all the regulators sign up to. They have all been established individually. This comes up again and again, and here it is again: who guards the guards? Who regulates the regulators? Last time round, the great argument was that we must be totally independent because then and only then can we serve the people we are supposed to serve well. I understand that, and I understand regulators wanting to keep their independence, because it is very important. However, the differences between the ways in which the regulators work and live keeps coming up, so I ask the Government: who is guarding the guards?
Lord Blencathra (Con)
My Lords, I support the thrust of this amendment. As my noble friend Lady Wilcox said, the regulators were all set up at different times and in different ways. I am not sure whether it is best to have an amendment in this Bill or to look at regulations applying to all the different regulators and toughen up their charters, so to speak. Perish the thought that I should disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, but, leaving aside the London tideway tunnel, my experience of Ofwat was that it was slightly better than many of the other regulators because while the water and sewage industry needs billions of pounds’ worth of infrastructure development, at least Ofwat keeps a tight grip on many of the companies and guards consumers’ interests slightly better than some other regulators.
Leaving water aside, in my experience the worst regulator was Ofcom, which is utterly wet and useless in regulating telephone operators. Perhaps it is, understandably, too focused on radio and the independent television sector and on selling off 4G and things like that, but I do not feel it has been very effective in regulating mobile telephone companies.
I hope the Minister will accept the principle that regulators have to do more to protect consumers’ interests, tailor-made to their current legislation and the job they are doing in their own regulatory field. This Bill may not be the best vehicle for such legislation, but I hope the Minister will accept the principle that regulators have to do more to protect consumers’ interests.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. As the noble Lord just said, it does not apply just to old people like me but to many people who do not have access to the internet, or they or their carers are unable to use it, as other noble Lords have said.
I should point out one thing one has to watch if one is doing things electronically—that is, how do you file things? It is fine getting a bill on your mobile phone, but what do you do with it subsequently? How do you keep a record of it? There are many ways of doing it but it is not just a question of paying it directly through bank transfer, you have to keep a record and feel comfortable that it is secure. Security is becoming more and more difficult so these regulated monopolies, as many of them are, need to be aware of the importance of people getting paper bills if that is what they want.
When you read a meter you can put the reading on a postcard, if you want, or you can fill it in online. One of these days, I think that meters will be read down the phone line or the electricity line with no human input. They might get it right. If they do not, heaven help us. A friend bought a house from me and six months later he got a bill for £10,000 for water because there had been a leak. That had probably been happening since the war, about 50 years before, and it had soaked away into London gravel. You can imagine how you end up with a bill like that electronically but it was all quite difficult.
The other issue is paying by cheque. I tried to pay my EDF bill by direct debit this weekend and failed completely. My bill did not say how you could do direct debit, although there was lots of detailed stuff on the back of the paper bill. So I thought I would phone them up. I hung on for half an hour for a nice, friendly voice but got nothing at all, so in the end I went on the website. I found that EDF has a new website and you could do it on the web. But how many other people will think, “What do you do?”. You get a second reminder every two months. You put a cheque in the post or whatever you do but you cannot even talk to them down the phone. A friend of mine in the Isles of Scilly has four BT lines because they have four houses that they let out in the summer. This weekend, she told me she spent a total of six hours on the phone to BT. They have not had two of the lines working for a month. They tried dealing with this electronically and down the phone. Today they spoke to five different people at BT and still do not know if it is working. Before the utilities start charging people, they should get the service right. This is a very important amendment for both the paper/electronic debate and paying things by cheque. I strongly support it.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, the one thing we must not do is sound naïve. For all we would agree with this, and all the reasons we have heard, we should not penalise the energy companies for doing something that cuts the price for a lot of people by using a mechanism that makes things work better. If we need to be able to help a group of people who cannot yet benefit from that mechanism, then we are asking the utilities to subsidise them. I just want to be sure that we realise we are saying that. We should not be saying that we need to penalise utilities for doing what they are doing. Really, we are looking for there to be access or some other way to do this. Many hard-pressed households welcome the opportunity to save money this way, et cetera. I just put that point in.
Lord Berkeley
Is the noble Baroness straying into the territory of Animal Farm: four legs good, two legs better—or whichever way it is? Is not everybody equal?
Baroness Wilcox
Does the noble Lord mean equal opportunity? No, we are not born equal, that is for sure. Some people are tall, some fat and some short. We are not born equal but we should have equality of opportunity. That is what the noble Lord is arguing for.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I think we are straying into unnecessary territory here—very philosophical points which are no doubt extremely interesting. I will not rehearse at length the argument I made when this Committee last discussed this matter. However, there is an obligation on government as far as this is concerned because government do not enable us to have some simple system of verifying who we are. When we need to verify our identity, we are required to turn up with a paper copy, sent to us via the post, of a utility bill. All my utilities are trying to move over to sending everything electronically but an electronic copy does not suffice for those purposes. Until such time as we have a system of identify verification, people will rely on receiving paper utility bills.
I have one other point why paper utility bills are important. We are encouraged by government to switch suppliers. This is part of the philosophy of improving competition. You switch suppliers. You move to another supplier. You have a new website to go into and a new password. All these passwords, I am sure, we do our best to remember and not write down somewhere. Of course, you can no longer access the website of your previous supplier because you are no longer their customer. If you need to check back on whether the prices are indeed comparable, that data are no longer available unless you, the customer, spend money on printing them out and keep a paper copy. Surely that is the wrong way round.