Building Safety

Baroness Swinburne Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, in reference to the Statement, I have to say how irritating it is that statistics are selected to project a positive picture of progress made on the remediation of building defects as a result of the Building Safety Act and how refreshing it would be if the Government were able to reflect on the poor rate of progress, instead of trying to spin a success story. Spinning the progress made is not doing anybody any favours. It is certainly not helping the thousands of leaseholders who are still stuck in limbo in flats where work has not been started and where even an assessment of whether work is needed has not been made. Perhaps an honest appraisal of the situation would put some government energy into trying to resolve this issue. As the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, has just asked, what is the timetable? How long have leaseholders to wait while this scheme is making snail-like progress towards some remediation?

In Inside Housing last week, a piece by the investigative journalist, Peter Apps, provided some very different numbers from those given by the Government in the Statement. I am not accusing the Government of having inaccurate figures, but they were very selective. I have no reason to challenge the report in Inside Housing, which says:

“As it stands, of 3,839 buildings above 11 metres being monitored by the government due to the need for cladding remediation, 2,286 have not even started works yet”.


The terrible Grenfell Tower fire was nearly seven years ago, and 2,000-plus buildings have not even had work started yet. But the report in Inside Housing went on to say that

“the 3,839 figure could eventually rise by as much as 5,000”.

based on the Government’s own estimates. We really do not know how many are in desperate need of remediation.

So my question to the Government is: can we have a full and final estimate—which surely should be possible nearly seven years after Grenfell—of how many blocks of flats are in need of remediation? How many of them are over 18 metres and most at risk? How many are over 11 metres? What consideration is being given to those under 11 metres, given that many thousands of leaseholders and tenants live in such flats, which the Government regard as being relatively safe but which insurance companies and service charges and all the rest do not? They are in total limbo, waiting for some action to unlock the situation that they are in. That is my first question.

Secondly, in January, there was a fire in Petworth Court in Wembley, which is a social housing building. The social landlord knew that work needed to be done and the original builder accepted that work needed to be done, but they have been in dispute ever since about how much responsibility each should take for it. That is another issue which desperately needs to be addressed because, at the end of it, it is leaseholders who are stuck in this awful situation of going to bed every night knowing that their buildings are unsafe and vulnerable to very serious fires. So another question that I want answered, please, is about how the Government are going to resolve the disputes between what are sometimes leaseholders and sometimes social landlords and the developers and builders.

My third point is this. According to the Statement, the Government are going to drip another £6 million of public money into council enforcement action. Now, I am absolutely fed up with the answer to any problem being that the Government will spend another bit of money trying to do something about it, instead of accepting what the fundamental issue is here. If you do not fund the public services on which we all rely—such as building regulations and building enforcement—properly in the first place, when there is a problem we are forever going to have the answer, “We’re going to drip another £2 million or £3 million in to try to solve it”—and it will not. It will deal with a little bit this time, but nobody can plan with little bits of money being dripped into public services in this way. So, please, at least take this back to the Government: fund the thing properly rather than dripping in money.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Swinburne) (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baronesses, Lady Taylor and Lady Pinnock, that too many residents in England continue to live in unsafe buildings, while irresponsible building owners fail to set things right. Last year saw a fundamental step change in our programme to fix unsafe buildings, with the launch of the cladding safety scheme last July. All private sector residential buildings above 11 metres in England now have a pathway to fix unsafe cladding. Following intensive talks with the homebuilding sector, we have also secured a solution that will see the original developers of defective buildings take responsibility to pay for and fix historical safety defects. Where developers are building owners and not currently funding cladding remediation, the Government have committed more than £5 billion to ensure that residents are safe—and feel safe—in their homes. However, there is still more that we can and will do.

Where building owners are failing to fix unsafe buildings quickly enough, enforcement action by our regulatory partners is critical. That is why we are announcing a new comprehensive package of support for regulators to boost enforcement. We continue to accelerate our remediation programmes. Over 4,000 buildings of over 11 metres are now in our remediation schemes; this is double the number of buildings in our schemes a year ago. The number of buildings reported to have started or completed remediation work has also more than doubled since February 2023.

From the start, we have prioritised the remediation of the highest-risk buildings. The ACM cladding remediation scheme, which funds the removal of the most dangerous Grenfell-style cladding, is nearing completion, with 98% of those buildings having started or completed works by the end of this month. This figure rises to 100% in the social sector. Over 50% of high-rise buildings in our building safety fund, which deals with buildings over 18 metres in height with non-ACM cladding, have also started or completed work. I apologise for the statistics, but these are real numbers, so I think the House deserves to know. For 346 buildings identified as requiring works under the developer remediation contract, remediation work is expected to start by January 2025.

Registered providers of housing also report that remediation work is complete or due to be completed for 87% of identified buildings with cladding related to defects by September 2028. The bulk of the outstanding buildings requiring remediation are between 11 metres and 18 metres in height. These medium-rise buildings now have a funded route to remediation, following the launch of the cladding safety scheme in July 2023. We expect the number of medium-rise buildings starting and completing remediation to increase as applicants enter and progress through the scheme.

Our focus is now on getting more buildings into our funds and accelerating their remediation process, including through robust enforcement action where needed. The data published this week in our new enforcement league table shows that levels of enforcement activity vary by regulator and region. Some regulators are doing a commendable job. For example, Newham Council recently won a landmark case and successfully prosecuted a building owner for delaying vital remediation work on unsafe cladding. However, as today’s data shows, some councils and fire and rescue authorities need to do more to ensure the safety of residents in their area.

Last year, the department published a joint statement with building safety bodies committing to see buildings made safer faster through a robust regime. The building safety regulator, the Local Government Association and the National Fire Chiefs Council all put their names to this statement. This week, we are delivering on this commitment by announcing our next package of support for our regulatory partners.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, I support allocating the further £6 million for the next financial year in grant funding to councils, in addition to establishing a new grant funding scheme to support councils and fire and rescue services with complex enforcement. It is needed; the work is additional work, and therefore we are putting in the money to enable them to do it properly.

To ensure that regulators have the tools they need to harness this funding and drive remediation, we are publishing a new suite of guidance this spring. New enforcement data also increases transparency for the public and empowers communities to see how their authorities are using their funding and powers to keep them safe.

The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, asked about a number of things, including progress made on registration of building control inspectors and other safety measures. Together with the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, she asked about buildings below 11 metres. I will seek to answer as many of those questions as possible. If I miss any, I apologise and will write to the noble Baronesses.

The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, asked what progress has been made on the registration of building control inspectors. The deadline for registering with the building safety regulator is 6 April. All building inspectors must be registered at least class 1 by that point. However, the building safety regulator has taken the decision to extend the registration period for experienced building inspectors in England who have not yet completed their competency assessment. To benefit from the extension period, they must be registered as class 1 before 6 April and be enrolled on a validation scheme in order to have their competency assessed at the level at which they intend to practise. They will have until 6 July to complete the assessment process. It is crucial that the sector continue to undertake the validation and registration processes in order to meet the competence requirements set by the building safety regulator.

Regarding second staircases, following public consultation and liaison with expert bodies, there is a recommendation that all new tall residential buildings over 18 metres have a second staircase. This will provide an additional means of escape for residents, and I am sure it is supported across the House. We will publish the updated approved document and guidance. I am told, with some authority, by my department, that that will still be by the end of March. Therefore, I am assuming that it will be in the next day or two. I will report to the House if that does not happen—but I hope that it will.

With respect to buildings under 11 metres, it is generally accepted that the safety risk is proportional to the height of the buildings. The risk to life from historic fire safety defects in buildings lower than 11 metres is less. Therefore, building safety-related remediation works are required in a very small number of buildings under 11 metres. A fire risk assessment and accompanying fire risk appraisal of external walls, conducted in accordance with PAS 9980 principles, will often find that lower-cost mitigations are more appropriate in low-rise buildings.

To give some assurance, in rare cases where remediation work is required in buildings under 11 metres, the Government have retrospectively extended the limitation period under Section 1 of the Defective Premises Act 1972. This enables legal action to be taken against developers and contractors where works completed in the last 30 years make a dwelling not fit for habitation.

With regard to the accountability of manufacturers involved in building safety defects, the Defective Premises Act has been amended to cover refurbishment and refitting work for works completed after the Building Safety Act came into force on 28 June 2022. Civil claims can therefore be brought against manufacturers for defective or mis-sold construction products where these products contributed to the dwelling being unfit for habitation. This provision applies to all dwellings and has retrospective effect for cladding products within a 30-year period. The Building Safety Act also gives courts new powers to extend liability to the associated companies of developers.

With regard to the way in which leaseholders and taxpayers will retrieve money they have paid towards a remediation scheme, under the Building Safety Act 2022 we have granted leaseholders the power to apply to the First-tier Tribunal for remediation contribution orders. The First-tier Tribunal has the discretionary power to decide a timeframe in which the money must be paid to the specified person. In the first ever RCO issued, the respondent was required to pay the amount specified in the order within 14 days of the decision date. If the respondent does not pay the specified person within the deadline set by the tribunal, the order can be enforced through the county court system.

Discussions have been taking place with the insurance sector. A lot of discussions have happened and, indeed, where buildings comply with building regulations or align with the industry-accepted PAS 9980 standards, insurers should now offer affordable premiums and should not prescribe additional remedial works. The Association of British Insurers and its members have stated that premiums should reduce where buildings have completed remediation or have become PAS 9980 compliant in the external wall assessment and have therefore shown a marked risk reduction. We expect insurers to honour their commitments and ensure that premiums are priced fairly and appropriately, given the level of work that will have been done.

With regard to selective statistics, monthly data is now being released that can be seen by all, and the progress can be seen; therefore, rather than selective data, the whole dataset will be available for people to observe. Indeed, when taken together with the transparency and enforcement measures through the enforcement league table, I hope that will allow not just this House and its Members but the wider public to keep up the pressure on remediation, making sure that it all happens at pace.

With regard to additional estimates, the numbers have not changed since they were released as prevalence estimates. The publicly available data suggests that 4,092 residential buildings of 11 metres and over with unsafe cladding are being monitored by DLUHC. This comprises just over 2,500 18 metre-plus buildings and 1,500 buildings of 11 to 18 metres. We will continue to bring more buildings into the remediation scheme and provide monthly updates on that progress as and when we have it.

I thank the two noble Baronesses for their comments and look forward to working with noble Lords to try to make sure that we continue at pace to make sure that people live in safe homes.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for the additional information, but can I press her a little further on the key issue raised by the two noble Baronesses: the pace of remediation? I welcome the action taken last year by the Government to compel 50 major developers to sign the developer remediation contract, but it does not have a timescale. One large London-centric developer, Galliard, says that its remediation plan could take another eight years. That will be 15 years after the Grenfell tragedy. Does my noble friend think that is acceptable? Related to that, under the contract, developers are obliged to report their target dates for each building to my noble friend’s department in their quarterly returns data. So far, the department has not published that data, meaning that leaseholders are unaware of what progress is being made. Can she consider publishing that data, which the department has, so that people know the pace agreed by the developer and her department?

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. To start with the second question first, yes, I shall take that back to the department. Given that transparency is a tool that we are using, it would make sense to make that communication transparent. I shall report back to my noble friend on progress on that.

On whether I personally think that developers taking eight years to fix this is acceptable, absolutely not. These are people’s homes; they need to feel safe. The reason why that new money has become available for regulators is to ensure that enforcement action can happen and to increase the pace of the change that is required, ensuring that remediation takes place as soon as possible. Therefore, I suggest that, if there are specific instances, noble Lords should speak to the department so that we can make sure that pressure is put on.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

In connection with building remediation, has the department any estimate of instances of potential freeholder insolvency? If a freeholder charged with building safety remediation becomes insolvent, what provisions will the Government make to ensure that those costs do not fall on the leaseholders?

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for that question. I shall have to write to him with the answer, on the basis that I do not have the data with me.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, did I hear the Minister say that, in respect of buildings higher than 11 metres, 87% had a remediation plan that would be delivered by 2028? Could she clarify what she said?

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

The 87% refers to the registered providers of social housing, which report that remediation work is due to be completed in 87% of buildings with cladding-related defects by September 2028.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

So that is for buildings of 11 metres that are social housing. There are two questions that arise from that. First, if it is in respect of social housing alone, what about non-social housing blocks? What is the equivalent figure there? The second, stark issue raised, given that, as the noble Lord, Lord Young, said, it is already seven years after Grenfell—so in 2028, it will be 11 years after Grenfell before that 87% is dealt with—is the other 13%. It is a sizeable number, and that is in respect only of the most pressing cases, in social housing, which may have been less well maintained. What is the position for the other 13%? Are there schemes agreed that will take longer, or is there still a proportion for which there is no scheme? Either of those situations is, of course, completely unsatisfactory.

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

I have numerous statistics in terms of the number of buildings that are involved in this programme. Of course, what we know is how many of those buildings over 18 metres are left without a programme or have completed their programme. Some 10 are left, and they all have programmes in place, so they will be completed as soon as possible. The highest-risk ACM cladding buildings are being dealt with, so we will get very close, in that 98% of them have now started or completed their works.

On buildings of lesser height, of 11 to 18 metres, because the fund was established only last July some of those buildings will not be known to us. We are still working on an estimated number for those requiring remediation. In England, that number is somewhere between 6,220 and 8,890. That figure is based on an estimation and, therefore, a methodology behind it. We expect those numbers to come forward as that fund is called on; as people utilise it to put pressure on the owners of those buildings to deal with this, we expect that number to rise.

I shall come back to the House regularly to update it on progress. We believe that pressure is the right way here, and pressure across the House is definitely the right way to keep up the work and get this done at pace.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister has indicated a number of times that the Government are focused on buildings over 11 metres in height and suggested that other buildings are not really a priority. Is she aware of the Moss Hall Grove fire in Finchley, north London, a few weeks ago, where four terraced houses went up in flames astonishingly quickly? There were 70 firefighters there and a significant number of engines had to be called to this blaze. Luckily, it happened at 10.30 am, so eight people were able easily to flee the circumstances, but this has led Barnet Council to recognise that there are significant problems particularly with timber-framed homes with plastic cladding on the outside. This one council in north London has identified 580 low-rise homes in need of urgent remediation. These are mostly 1930s to 1960s-built timber-framed homes with uPVC panels fitted in the 1980s. Are the Government looking into this issue? The identification of 580 homes in one London borough suggests a very large problem across the country.

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question; however, I do not have any data with me on that. I will make sure that the department looks into it and I will write to her with an answer.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as deputy mayor for fire in London. With respect to the Minister, using such terms as “at pace” and “as soon as possible” when things are taking so long after the Grenfell Tower fire seems a little tardy to some of us in this House. Building safety in London and across the country is still a fundamental issue. There is still shoddy practice and that is not just historic. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, pointed out, the time of day matters in this. I raised the fires in Barnet in the debate earlier today and previously with the noble Baroness, Lady Scott. I would be really grateful if the department could respond to Barnet Council on the issue of the properties referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, but the time of day should not matter in terms of building safety or risk to life. Do the Government include the time of day that an issue might happen in their fundamental assessment of risk to life in relation to building safety? It really does matter in practice.

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

Again, I will ensure that the department briefs us and we will be able to come back in writing on the situation in Barnet. I will check what the independent individual has told us with regard to that risk to life and whether that involves an assessment of the time of day. I am afraid I do not have that information, but I am sure somebody in the department does.

[Lord Watson of Wyre Forest (Lab)]

My Lords, I seek a little more clarity on timelines. Do the Government have a deadline by which remediation must be complete? If they do, what is it? If they do not, does the Minister think it is sensible to set one?

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

At this point, “as soon as possible” is the deadline and therefore no excuse is a good enough excuse for this not to be happening in any identified building right now, in order to ensure that people are safe. As to whether it needs to happen as this progresses, we have doubled the number of buildings that have been made safe in the last year. If that does not continue to progress and, indeed, potentially quicken, then, on that basis, I imagine that the department will start to investigate whether other measures are needed.

[Lord McDonald of Salford (CB)]

As a department, DLUHC has many priorities and, necessarily, a limited budget. Can the Minister tell us where in the list of departmental priorities the cladding safety scheme features? Will all eligible buildings be covered?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

Of the funds that have been made available, there are a number for different sizes of buildings; the fund for buildings between 11 and 18 metres was available from July last year. Therefore, from that perspective, everyone is open to being able to use them. Regarding how the issue sits as a priority, it certainly sits with me as a priority and, as a new Minister in the department, I will ensure that I do everything I can to monitor progress. The monthly data will be checked and we will put pressure not only on developers but on the enforcement side, with regards to the regulators and the local authorities working hand in hand.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I raise an issue relating to what has happened with high-rise buildings since the Grenfell tragedy. This week, the Independent reported that, in high-rise buildings that have been declared safe, substantial numbers of leaseholders and residents are seeing massive increases of up 1,000% in insurance premiums. To give an example, there is a one-bedroom flat occupied by a single parent and a baby where the insurance has gone up over two years from £274 a year to more than £2,600, making it essentially unaffordable. Will the Government look into why, if buildings have been declared safe, the insurance premiums are going through the roof? Surely risk to life and risk to the fabric of the building, which the insurance primarily relates to, have to be interrelated?

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

If there are instances where that is the case, then you can either work with our department, or directly through the Association of British Insurers to alert them to the fact that it is happening. There is an agreement with insurance companies that, if remediation work has been done, the insurance premiums should not be excessive.

With regards to other parts of the insurance market and those buildings which have not yet had full remediation work done, they are also expected to be working with residents to ensure that insurance is affordable. There is a fire-safety reinsurance facility led by the Association of British Insurers, which reinsurance brokers can utilise. There are a number of insurance-led schemes which are supposed to be helping. If noble Lords know of any instances where they are not, please let us know.

[Lord Watson of Wyre Forest (Lab)]

Can the Minister say if there is an intention in government to seek recompense for the taxpayer from the people who are responsible for this crisis?

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

We believe that those responsible for these buildings need to be the ones who ultimately pay for this, so the answer is yes.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

I want to press further on the business of insurance premiums. Did the Minister say that there was an agreement with the Association of British Insurers that, once remediation work had been completed, there would not be any net increase in insurance premiums? That does not appear to be happening at the moment, so what enforcement action will the Government take, if that is the case?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

Sorry, bear with me for a second. I need to go back to an earlier section—I have ripped all my papers out and therefore they are in the wrong place—to allow me to help the noble Lord.

The commitment made by the ABI and its members is that the premiums should reduce where buildings have completed remediation, or have achieved the PAS 9980-compliant external wall assessment, and have therefore shown a reduction in risk. We are working with the insurers to build a better understanding of these building standards, and we expect insurers to honour their commitments and ensure that premiums are fairly priced and appropriate to the level of risk after remediation.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Since there is time, I will follow through on that—for public information, really. If it is not happening, and if we have a case such as the one I cited, from £270 to £2,600, who does an individual or a campaigning organisation go to in the Government? What are the actual steps to say that this is not happening and the ABI is not delivering? What is the mechanism that can be implemented?

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

In the first instance, I suggest that they go to their insurance company directly and notify it of the requirement that this should be fair and assessed based upon the existing current risk rather than prior risk. If that does not yield results and the ABI is unable to help, I am more than happy, as the Minister here, to have those sent to me.

[Lord Watson of Wyre Forest (Lab)]

Since there is time, and on this very important point, is the department monitoring the rise in insurance premiums in these properties to allow Ministers to make appropriate policy decisions, and should the ABI not honour its commitments?

[Baroness Swinburne (Con)]

I do not know the explicit answer to that. I will check, and anything comes to light that suggests that we are not, I will come back to the House, but I imagine that we are, and if not, I will revert.