Pension Schemes Bill Debate
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Baroness Sherlock
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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)
I am grateful to noble Lords who have introduced and spoken to amendments. Clause 40 delivers the Government’s commitment to ensure that DC workplace pension savers benefit from the advantages that flow from scale and consolidation. It establishes a clear, measurable threshold and a framework centred on a single main scale default arrangement—MSDA—so that governance and investment decisions can be applied consistently across large pools of assets. This approach is integral to securing better member outcomes, improved access to productive investment and stronger in-house capability.
We had a preliminary conversation about all this on Thursday, but I know that not all noble Lords were there so, before I dive into specific points on the amendments, I will pick up a couple of the headlines. In response to the noble Lords, Lord Ashcombe and Lord Palmer, the UK’s workplace pension industry accounts for more than £2 trillion in assets, serving more than 16 million savers who have been automatically enrolled and are not engaged in pension savings. It is particularly important that these assets are working as hard as possible to provide better saver returns and security in retirement and, to do that, scale and provision really matter.
Evidence suggests that there are direct benefits derived from scale; they include better governance and economies of scale, whereby greater size reduces average cost per member and creates the ability to move investment in-house, which reduces investment costs in turn. It also enables access to a wider range of assets, including diversification and the ability to invest directly in assets rather than having to be part of a pooled fund. With improved bargaining power, schemes can negotiate lower investment fees, improving net returns.
There is a lot more that I could say, but I have said quite a lot of this before. I will say just a word just about the level of scale and why it is £25 billion. As I explained last week, our evidence shows that, across a range of domestic and international studies, a greater number of benefits can arise from a scale of around £25 billion to £50 billion of assets under management, including investment expertise, improved governance and access to a wider range of assets.
That is supported by industry analysis, showing that schemes of this size find it easier to invest in productive finance. International evidence shows that funds in the region of £25 billion invest nearly double the level of private market investment compared to a £1 billion pound fund. We selected the lower band, but there is further evidence that demonstrates that the greater the scale, the greater the benefits.
I can point to a range of studies. Analysis from Australia’s pensions regulator found that funds with around £25 billion were able to spread costs over their membership, keeping fees lower. Pensions UK reported that schemes with £25 billion to £50 billion of assets have considerable governance capability and find it easier to invest directly. The Conexus Institute again found in favour of funds of £25 billion to £50 billion. We have been transparently reporting the evidence via the impact assessment and the previous publication of Pension Fund Investment and the UK Economy, which outlined the evidence.
The noble Lord, Lord Fuller, will have to forgive me; I am not going back to LGPS. We spent two entire days in Committee on the first 10 pages of the Bill and I am not going back there. We can do it on Report. He is not going to stand up; I have not responded to a word he has said yet. Give me a moment. The noble Lord’s point is about scale. The evidence shows that larger schemes are better placed to invest—
Lord Fuller (Con)
The Minister invites me to stand up. The only reason I mentioned the LGPS is because the LGPS funds have been put into pools of £25 billion to £50 billion. We have a real economy experiment of what might happen if these provisions are enacted on the rest of it. The noble Baroness said that there are lower costs of investment. Then she went on to say, just now, that it is transferred with in-house teams. You will therefore have to substitute an externalised team for an in-house team at a scale of £25 billion. You are trying to compete with Fidelity, which has £900 billion in its team. You are setting these people up to fail; you have got the wrong scheme. You need the ability to go to the largest fund managers with the hugest assets under management, not try to recreate the City in aspic on footprints of £25 billion by duplicating all the procedures, staffing, HR and everything else. You have the B team and, guess what, they are always away on holiday in the first two weeks of August when the last three market crashes have happened and there is no one to answer the phone. That is the problem. You are saving one risk and applying the other.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I made these arguments at some length on Thursday. I have made them again now. The noble Lord disagrees with them; I can tell from his tone. He can read Hansard and pick up the relevant bits with me if he would like to.
Let me come back to the amendments. I will start with Amendments 91 and 95 from the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. I thank her for introducing them with her customary clarity and brevity. These would create an exemption from the scale of requirements for master trusts and GPPs that can demonstrate investment performance exceeding the average of schemes that meet the scale conditions. I recognise the intent to reward strong performance, but obviously I am concerned the proposal would undermine the Government’s objective, which is a market of fewer, larger, better-run schemes, where economies of scale deliver sustained benefits to savers.
I should clarify the point about objectives. The Government’s primary objective is saver outcomes. I want to be clear about that. While I am here, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, that this is not about administrative simplicity but about member outcomes. At the centre of our policy is the drive for better membership outcomes. That does not mean a simple scheme, but one that has strong governance and is well run, including strong administration, because scale supports the scheme to have the resources and the expertise to do this.
To respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, in considering scale in the pensions landscape today, we have all shapes and sizes of schemes, in which value for members is important. We know that performance can be delivered across different sizes of scheme, but scale changes the landscape. Schemes that have scale will have the tools to deliver on value and performance in a way that a small scheme will not be able to in this future landscape. That is because scale enables greater expertise, efficiencies and buying power than a small scheme. That is the landscape we need to deliver for members because we want better outcomes for them. In considering the issue, it is therefore important to focus on the future landscape, the market at scale, and not the current landscape. In our view, there is not sufficient evidence that other approaches can deliver the same benefits for members and the economy.
On the specifics of the noble Baroness’s amendment, there are also some concerns around the impact; it could create an unstable landscape if we were to focus on the performance at any point in time. Of course, the intention for any exemption is that it is a permanent feature of the scheme and is not subject to regular assessment. As we all know, past investment performance is not a guarantee of future success. If we went down this road, there would be times when exempted sub-scale schemes found that they were no longer delivering investment performance that exceeds the average of those at scale. That is not stable for members or employers, and does not support their interests.
Amendment 98 proposes an innovation-based exemption from the scale requirement for master trust schemes offering specialist or innovative services. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, that innovation really matters; that is precisely why the Bill provides for a new entrant pathway so that novel propositions can enter the market and scale responsibly. But creating a parallel innovation pathway as an alternative to scale would dilute the fundamental objective of consolidation and risk maintaining a long tail of small schemes, with fragmented governance and limited access to productive investment.
I should say a few words on competition. Actually, I might come back to that.
Amendments 99 and 106 from the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, would remove the £25 billion threshold from the Bill. We believe the threshold is a central pillar of the policy architecture. It has been set following consultation with industry and government analysis of the emerging evidence, to which I referred earlier, on the point at which the benefits of scale are realised. We believe that this is a key policy decision that should be in the Bill. We also believe, as the noble Baroness indicated, that it is very important that there is certainty for industry on this threshold at the earliest possible point. Putting the £25 billion on the face of the Bill assures industry that it cannot be changed without full parliamentary engagement.
I know the noble Baroness wants me to reassure her that this matter is open for further discussion. I regret that I will have to disappoint her. The Government are committed to this and have put it in the Bill for the reasons I just explained.
Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
If the intention is to maintain these specific limits in the Bill, I hope that consideration will be given to an existing new entrant pathway—rather than only a new entrant pathway from 2030 onwards—and some kind of innovation pathway, as suggested by my noble friends Lord Younger and Lady Stedman-Scott, so that schemes that either are already in existence or will come through over the next few years, if they are able to do so, will not be forced out of business or prevented even beginning.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
The noble Baroness makes an important point about innovation. We recognise the importance of a proportionate approach to scale, which is why we created the transition pathway. I know that the noble Baroness thinks the number or scale is not right, but that is the purpose of the transition pathway: to give schemes that can reach scale within a reasonable time the chance to do so.
On innovation, although we want to see a market of fewer, larger pension schemes, the policy still encourages competition through allowing innovative schemes, such as CDCs, to develop and by enabling brand new innovative schemes to enter the market via the new entrant pathway. I know the noble Baroness is not satisfied with that, but that is our answer to her question: the new entrant pathway.
Amendment 102 from the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, would delete the regulation-making power on what values can be counted towards the scale threshold in order to probe how assets will be calculated. The market contains varied and complex arrangements. It is both prudent and necessary that affirmative regulations, consulted on with industry, set out the assets that may be included or adjusted when calculating the total value in the MSDA, with a focus on assets where members have not made an active choice.
Let me be clear on that point: the choices that will be made here are the ones that will create the big fat wallet, if you like, which will in turn drive the benefits of scale. The intent is that the regulations will focus on the default arrangement that the vast majority of members will be in. We want to see members of the same age who join the scheme at the same time get the same outcome, but the regulation-making power enables practical realities of how the market operates now—especially at the margins. We know that there is a variety in practice in the market, so engagement and consultation are crucial.
Amendment 104 from the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, would remove the regulation-making power to define “common investment strategy” and to set evidentiary requirements for the scale condition. I understand that the aim here is both to probe this power and to require the Government to define “common investment strategy” prior to Royal Assent. A common investment strategy will help to deliver a single approach to maximise the buying power of a scheme in terms of fees and the diversification of its investments. We think that is crucial because allowing, for example, multiple potentially divergent strategies within the MSDA would maintain fragmentation and drive away from the consolidation that we want members to benefit from.
Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)
My Lords, I wish to speak briefly in support of this group of amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Altmann. She has once again demonstrated her expertise and the value that she brings to our scrutiny of these important issues. Most importantly, she explained the spirit in which these amendments were tabled.
Throughout our proceedings on this Bill, a consistent theme across the Committee has been the need for proportionality in the steps we are taking on scale and value for money, and for definitions that are sufficiently comprehensive to reflect how the market actually operates in practice. I do not intend to repeat the points already made by the noble Baroness or ask the questions she has posed, but we will listen carefully to the Minister’s response on these issues.
Clause 40, as drafted, risks applying the scale test in an overly narrow and mechanical way by requiring the regulator to assess each default arrangement in isolation without regard to the wider context in which it is offered. That approach is not necessarily proportionate; nor does it reflect the economic reality of how master trust providers operate. This amendment would allow the regulator to take into account the combined assets of several non-scale default arrangements offered by the same provider. In doing so, it would not dilute the principle of scale; rather, it would ensure that scale is assessed in a comprehensive and realistic way, focusing on the resilience, governance and efficiency of the provider as a whole.
That matters because, without this flexibility, we risk forcing consolidation for its own sake and potentially requiring well-run, well-performing defaults to be wound up simply because they fall on the wrong side of an arbitrary threshold—even where the provider clearly operates at scale overall. This amendment therefore speaks directly to the principles that we have already raised in Committee: that regulations should be outcome-focused rather than box-ticking, and that they should avoid unintended consequences that could undermine member confidence rather than enhancing it. For those reasons, I believe this is a sensible and proportionate refinement of Clause 40, and I hope the Minister will give it serious consideration.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, for the clarity of the exposition of her amendments, and I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I will try to explain what the Government are trying to do here and then pick up the specific points that the noble Baroness raised.
To maintain the policy on scale and secure its benefits for pension scheme members, there will need to be centralised decision-making over a large pool of assets. The Bill sets out that this will be delivered by the main scale default arrangement, which is subject to a common investment strategy. I recognise that the noble Baroness has raised concerns about the common investment strategy being able to accommodate different factors, but I will tell the Committee why it is there. A key purpose of the policy is to minimise fragmentation in schemes and to have a single default arrangement at the centre of schemes’ proposition. Fragmentation is an issue, not because it is a piece of government dogmatism but because it is in the interests of members that those who run their schemes have a big wallet at the centre to give the scheme the buying power and expertise they need, because that enables them to deliver on the benefits of scale.
When we consulted, the responses told us that there were schemes with hundreds of default arrangements that have been created over a long period of time and that this is a problem. Members in these arrangements get lower returns and pay higher charges, which some consultation responses also told us. It is important that we deal with that fragmentation and that we improve member outcomes.
However, the Government also recognise that there are circumstances where a different default arrangement is needed to serve specific member needs only—for example, for religious or ethical regions. These will be possible through Chapter 4 but they will not count towards the main scale default arrangement. If the scale measure encompassed multiple default arrangements or combined assets, as these amendments would allow, it would not drive the desired changes or support member outcomes derived from the benefits of scale. Following consultation, there was clear consensus that scale should be set at the arrangement level as that is where key decisions about investments are made. Simply put, centralised scale is the best way to realise benefits across the market for savers.
The pensions industry has told us there are too many default arrangements in some schemes, and that fragmentation—
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
I am going to answer the point and then come back, if that is okay. Just give me another two minutes.
That fragmentation does not benefit savers but can lead to increased charges and lack of access to newer, higher-performing investments. The Government are committed to addressing this fragmentation, which exists predominantly in DC workplace contract-based schemes.
To prevent further market fragmentation, Clause 42 allows for regulations to be made to restrict the creation of new non-scale default arrangements. To be clear, this is not a ban nor a cap on new default arrangements. There will be circumstances where they will be in saver interests and meet the needs of a cohort of members. As the noble Baroness says, this is not a one-size-fits-all approach.
On the point about choice, auto-enrolment has moved many members to save for the first time. The vast majority enter the default fund and do not engage in their schemes. Those who do can choose their own funds, and these measures do not interfere with that, but they are a minority, and these measures aim to support the millions who do not engage.
The noble Baroness is right that one size of default arrangement does not fit all, but the Bill requires a review to consider the existing fragmentation and why multiple default arrangements exist. That will inform us of which default arrangements should continue and the characteristics they possess that deliver better member outcomes or meet a specific need.
Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
The Minister has raised many points that I would like to ask further about, if that is okay. The fragmentation applies to legacy schemes: the contract-based schemes, as she says. These are the old personal pension-type arrangements—SIPPs, GPPs and so on—which were developed a long time ago. Typically, the more modern schemes have just one default, with one investment approach that is meant to suit all members. It is that approach that I hope and expect to be refined as we move forward so that there can be different types of default fund for different types of member. I do not anticipate that they will be people choosing their own. It will be on the basis of information that the provider seeks from its members, using that to send them down a slightly more appropriate investment route for their money. That does not stop the providers having large pools of money that they allocate members to, but it would not be in just the one central fund, as I say. Of course that is easier for the provider, but I think the providers owe members a different duty, which is to try to tailor a little more for those who do not choose, based on wider circumstances than just their chronological age, what is best for their investment and pension outcomes.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
I have heard the noble Baroness’s explanation and understand the point she is making. The point about choice was not actually directed at her; it was directed at a colleague who mentioned choice and I was trying to explain that this is not about choice. I accept the point the noble Baroness is making that this is for those who do not engage.
If having a single default fund were simpler for the pension schemes, and that is what drove this, we would not have the number of defaults we have at the moment. We have huge numbers of defaults. I accept that many of those are the product of history, but the key is that we have to consolidate. To be clear, as I have said, we are not banning or capping the new default arrangements, but we want to ensure that any new arrangements meet the needs of members, so any new non-scale default arrangements will have to obtain regulatory approval before they can accept moneys into them. We have said that we are going to consult and we need evidence to look at whether anything else should be included, and that will come up when we consult.
I understand the point that the noble Baroness is making and I am happy to reflect on it, but we need consolidation and we need to consult to make sure that we have allowed for the right things. With that reassurance, I hope she feels able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Sherlock
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment corrects an error.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
That was fun. I will have a go at explaining the Government’s narrative on this, which is an alternative to the narrative that has been established so far. I will then try to go through and answer as many of the questions as I can.
Let me start by stating the obvious. The amendments relate largely to the part of Clause 40 that determines which types of investment are deemed as qualifying assets for the purpose of meeting any asset allocation requirements were we to use the power. I stated in my opening reply to the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, that he said “when” mandation comes in, but it is very much “if”; we do not anticipate using this power but, if it were used, we would need to be clear about what happens next.
The most relevant provisions are found in new Section 28C(5). This broadly limits qualifying assets to private assets. The subsection provides by way of example that qualifying assets may include private equity, private debt, venture capital or interests in land—that is, property investments. It also clarifies that qualifying assets may include investments and shares quoted on SME growth markets, such as AIM and Aquis.
In contrast, according to this subsection, qualifying assets may not generally include listed securities, defined as securities listed on a recognised investment exchange. That approach reflects the aim of the power to work as a limited backstop to the commitments that the DC pensions industry has made, which relate to private assets only.
That brings me to the subjects of the amendments from the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles and Lady Altmann. I start by reminding the Committee of the rationale for this approach, because it stems from the Mansion House Accord. The accord was developed to address a clear structural issue in our pensions market. DC schemes, particularly in their default funds, are heavily concentrated in listed, liquid assets and have very low allocations to private markets. That is in contrast to a number of other leading pension systems internationally, which allocate materially more to unlisted private equity, infrastructure, venture capital and similar assets.
The reason the Government are so supportive of the accord is that it will help to correct that imbalance and bring the UK into line with international practice. A modest but meaningful allocation to private markets can, within a diversified portfolio, improve long-term outcomes for savers and support productive investment in the real economy, including here in the UK.
The reserve power in Clause 40 is designed as a narrow backstop to those voluntary commitments. For that reason, any definition of “qualifying assets” must be clear, tightly focused on the assets we actually want to target and operationally workable for schemes, regulators and government. That is the context on the question of listed investment trusts and other listed investment companies.
I recognise the important role that investment trusts play in UK capital markets and in financing the real economy. Pension schemes—as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, pointed out—are, and will remain, free to invest in wherever trustees consider that to be in members’ best interests.
However, the clear intention of this policy has been to focus on unlisted private assets. This is reflected in industry documentation underpinning the accord, which defines private markets as unlisted asset classes, including equities, property, infrastructure and debt, and refers to investments held directly or through unlisted funds. That definition was reached following a number of iterative discussions led by industry, as part of which the Government supported the definition being drawn in this way.
Bringing listed investment funds within the qualifying asset definition would be out of step with the deliberate approach of the accord and its focus on addressing the specific imbalance regarding allocation to private assets. It would also raise implementation challenges, requiring distinctions to be made between the different types of listed companies that make or hold private investments or assets. It would introduce uncertainty about what we expect from DC providers. We might justly be accused of moving the goalposts, having already welcomed the accord, with its current scope, in no uncertain terms.
But the line has to be drawn somewhere. This is not a judgment on the intrinsic qualities or importance of listed investment vehicles, nor does it limit schemes’ ability to invest in them. It is simply about structuring a narrow, targeted power so that it does what it is intended to do: underpin a voluntary agreement aimed at increasing exposure to unlisted private markets in as simple a way as possible and without cutting across schemes’ broader investment freedoms.
The legislation draws a general distinction between listed securities and private assets; it does not single out investment trusts. Any listed security, whether a gilt, main market equity or listed investment company, is treated in the same way for the purposes of this narrow definition.
Crucially, this concerns only a small proportion of portfolios. Under the accord, the remaining 90% of default fund assets can continue to be invested in any listed instrument, including investment trusts, where trustees and scheme managers judge that that would benefit their members.
I am just coming to the answers, but please ask some more questions.
Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)
I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. In a situation where trustees do not wish to put more than the prescribed amount in the qualifying assets, and they want to hold those through a listed closed-ended company because they are concerned about the structure of an open-ended fund and do not have the ability to invest directly, why would the Government want to fetter their choice in that way? I thank the Association of Investment Companies, which has helped me to understand some of the things that these companies do.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, trustees will have to make their own decisions on that. I understand that, were mandation to come in, there would be constraints on this, but let me see whether I will pick up some answers to help with that as we go.
The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and, I think, the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, suggested that the Bill explicitly discriminates against listed investment funds. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, made this point previously. That concern is perhaps reflected in Amendment 124, which would remove the language that in general serves to exclude listed securities. Nothing in this language refers directly to investment funds or should be construed as a signal of discrimination, but I have listened carefully to the arguments made and I recognise that some people clearly feel otherwise. I am happy to take that away and consider further the arguments about signalling.
A number of noble Lords, starting with the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, emphasised the issue of underlying investments, pointing out that the Mansion House Accord includes specific language on this. It defines UK private markets as meaning
“where the underlying assets are based in the UK”.
Accordingly, new Section 28C(6) provides the mechanism to reflect this aspect of the accord. Amendment 127 relates to this point, and I will say more when I return to it. I have already recognised that DC funds may invest directly or through funds. That means that, if we ever came to exercise these powers, we would need to implement the regulations under new Section 28C in a way that suitably reflects this. However, we do not consider it necessary to amend the clause to achieve this, since there is sufficient flexibility in new Section 28C to prescribe descriptions of qualifying assets in a way that reflects this, subject to the constraints in new Section 28C(5).
On the matter of competition, the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, made a more constrained speech than she did last week, and I commend her for that. The question of competition law was raised. For the record, there has been no breach of competition law by the Government, nor are we encouraging a breach of competition law. We strongly welcome the Mansion House Accord; I make that clear for the record.
I turn back to Amendment 127 in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, because it picks up some of these points. This amendment would remove the provision that allows the Government, if exercising these powers, to specify that a proportion of assets subject to an asset allocation requirement should be invested in the UK. This aspect of the clause was developed with the Mansion House Accord firmly in mind. Under the accord, half of the 10% of default fund assets committed to private markets is intended to be invested in the UK. This provision simply ensures that the powers can operate as a backstop to that commitment. What constitutes a UK investment will vary by asset and will be set out in due course, with new Section 28C(6)(b) making it clear that this can be done through regulations.
Amendment 121, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, also relates to the definition of qualifying assets. Its effect would be to add to the list of examples of private asset classes that may be prescribed as qualifying assets in regulations made under new Section 28C(4). As the noble Baroness is aware, the Government have designed these provisions to mirror closely the asset classes covered by the Mansion House Accord. The clause does not perfectly correspond, word for word, with the drafting of the accord, but the effect is the same. To be clear, I can confirm that UK infrastructure assets, UK scale up capital and UK SME growth market shares, which I assume is what the noble Baroness meant when she referred to quoted companies, are all capable of being designated as qualifying assets, provided that they are not listed on a recognised investment exchange. They are very good examples of the sorts of assets in which these reforms should encourage investment; none the less, it is not necessary to list them individually in the Bill.
I have listened carefully to the many considered points and arguments that have been made in relation to qualifying assets. I recognise that there is not unanimity in the Committee, although it is always interesting when my noble friend Lord Davies agrees with the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and, at least in part, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, agrees with me; all things are possible, we discover, in Committee in the House of Lords. Given that, and given the arguments that have been made both here and previously, I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw or not press their amendments.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate; I also thank the Minister for, from my perspective, attempting to defend the indefensible.
The Minister mentioned the industry documentation underlying the accord. I would be grateful if that could be forwarded to me, made a matter of public record and, perhaps, placed in the Library. As I said in my opening speech, if noble Lords want to know, I have had some 70% of the people representing the default funds—if you take their turnover—say that they did not think that they have agreed to the exclusion of listed investment companies. So something is going wrong here.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
I should have quoted what I was referring to; I meant to do so but forgot, so I apologise. I was referring to the question and answer materials that accompany the accord on the ABI’s pensions website, which I am sure the noble Baroness has read. They say:
“The definitions of both global and UK private markets assets include directly held, or via investment through unlisted funds in property, infrastructure, private credit, private equity and venture capital”.
The Government understand that this reflects the intention of the accord to exclude investment in listed investment funds. I would be happy to send these materials round to noble Lords.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)
I am not sure that “directly held” applies to an LTAF either. The fact is that you have wrappers and underlying assets. It is discriminatory, and that should be tested. I still do not see how, when you have the public policy laid out by the high-level working group set up to create LTAFs, you can then say, “A private negotiation overrides that”. I stand by that.
I know that the Pensions Minister received a letter from a past lord mayor, Alastair King, who is one of the architects of the Mansion House initiatives, on 22 October last year. He relayed that he had encountered both support for the investment trust market and concerns that the Bill did not acknowledge the potential of the investment company structure. That evidence—one of the architects asking, “What’s going on here?”—also seems to have been ignored.
I come to the same basic point: for me, the Government have not provided a clear, public or specific rationale for this exclusion. I would say that neither has the ABI, but I did not know that it runs the country. All of the evidence points the opposite way to what the Government have done. Officials have confirmed in meetings that no assessment of using listed investment companies has been carried out, despite the clear steer of the policy in the working group to do so. It seems that this Q&A from the ABI overrides a Bank of England/FCA/government working group. That cannot be so. The only explanation ever offered is that there are “suitably targeted guardrails”—a phrase that has never been defined, evidenced or justified. What do you have to guard from in a listed investment company? Competition? Transparency? That is a very strange thing to say; it is an instrument of division and discrimination, protecting secrets.
Let us remind ourselves of what we are dealing with: two collective investment vehicles, each of which is a wrapper holding protected assets of net asset value for the pension scheme. That is where they differ from an ordinary equity. An ordinary equity does not have any protection for the assets; if the company goes bust, it is bust. If the listed investment company goes back to the net asset value, the assets are still there for the pension fund. That is the difference, which is why a collective investment vehicle such as a listed investment company belongs with the LTAF; it does not belong with an equity.
I still do not see why they stick so closely to some Q&A but, whether by design or by accident, they have produced a proposal that I still say is without foundation, without evidence and, frankly, without integrity. It is irrational and procedurally unfair, and it fails to take account of relevant and public considerations, relying instead on things that have not been consulted on and that have been presented through private industry discussions. I have never seen anything like this before. There are simple ways to make it fair in various proposed amendments in the rest of this group, spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann—
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, briefly, this group again underlines a central point that we have been making: mandation should not be in the Bill. Time and again, we have heard concerns about the risks of picking winners and the unintended consequences that inevitably follow. I raised these issues on the previous group, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles and Lady Altmann, have today and previously put those concerns firmly on record.
However, I am grateful to noble Lords for their thoughtful efforts to limit or mitigate the impact of the mandation power. I thank my friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, supported by my noble friends Lady McIntosh of Pickering and Lady Penn in particular, for their remarks on these issues. However, our view remains unchanged and, for reasons already rehearsed at length, asset allocation mandates have no place in this legislation. There is no compelling evidence that they are either necessary or effective in increasing productive investment in the UK.
If we are serious about addressing the barriers to UK investment, we must be honest about where those barriers lie. They include governance and regulatory burdens; risk-weighting and capital requirements; liquidity constraints and scheme-specific funding; and maturity considerations. None of these challenges is addressed, let alone solved, by mandation. If, notwithstanding these concerns, the reserve power is to be retained, significantly stronger safeguards are essential: a clear cap on the proportion of assets that may be mandated; more robust reporting and evidential requirements before regulations are made; explicit conditions for access to any transition pathway relief; a strengthened savers’ interest test; and rigorous post-implementation review. The question of when and on what basis the power should be sunsetted is one that we will return to on the next group, but the fundamental point must be clear: mandation is the wrong tool and the Bill risks embedding unjustified and anti-competitive discrimination between equivalent investment vehicles, driven not by evidence or public interest but by a narrow and self-interested approach. I will address those issues in more detail in a later group but, for now, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to the specific amendments raised.
However—before she gets up—I wish to turn to Amendment 118 in my name. It probes the power that allows regulations made under new Section 28C to include assets of various classes under the broad heading of private assets and to permit the future inclusion of additional asset classes. I appreciate the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, on this part.
I touched on this matter in some detail in the previous groups, so I will not repeat those arguments here. However, this amendment once again draws attention to our concern about the specific types of asset that the Government have chosen to list on page 46 of the Bill. It remains an issue about which we are deeply concerned, and one on which we will continue to work closely with other noble Lords though to Report.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I apologise to the noble Viscount for jumping up prematurely. These amendments relate to the level of any asset allocation requirements and the potential treatment of investments in private equity and private debt as qualifying assets for the purpose of any asset allocation requirement.
I will start with the with the level of any asset allocation requirement, a question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh in her Amendment 114 and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, in Amendment 112. Both would cap the percentage of default fund assets that could be required to be invested in qualifying assets. I understand why noble Lords were keen to table these amendments and to look for a cap. I have to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, that I am shocked by such cynicism in one so young. I will explain the—perfectly rational—reason the Government have not done this; I hope that she will find it very satisfying and feel suitably chastened at that point. We do not expect to need to exercise the power, but to do so would be a significant step and, as noble Lords may have picked up by now, the Government’s general approach has been to design the power so that it can be used as a backstop to the commitments used in the Mansion House Accord. I underscore that point.
The aim has been to create a backstop to that rather than to fix a numerical cap in primary legislation. That is what it is designed to do. The accord is not a legal document, and its terms and definitions are not of a kind that could simply be lifted into statute. If the Government were ever to exercise these powers, we would need to define key terms precisely, and it is at least possible that those definitions might have some bearing on the precise percentage levels that are appropriate. We have therefore not taken the step of hard-wiring a fixed cap, although I underline that we have included various other safeguards, which I have repeated more than once, so will not repeat again in the interests of time.
In relation to Amendment 113 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, the Mansion House Accord commitment has informed the design of these powers, including the ability for government to require a proportion of assets to be invested in specified qualifying assets. I understand the point that she was making, but our approach has been deliberately limited, going no further than necessary to support the commitments already made. That caution is important, given that this is a novel—and, I discern, a not entirely uncontroversial—part of the Bill. Although we are aligned on the objectives, I would not want to suggest a change in policy direction where none is intended. Our aim is to give the DC pensions industry reasonable clarity about our expectations.
Amendment 119, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, interrogates the inclusion of private equity as an example of a qualifying asset. Its effect would be to remove private equity from the illustrative list in new Section 28C(5). Amendment 120 from my noble friend Lord Sikka would do the same, as well as removing private debt.
Lord Ashcombe (Con)
My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, after that. I support Amendments 115 and 152, in the names of my noble friends Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lady Stedman-Scott, concerning the Government’s draft powers to mandate. The matter before us is not, in essence, a question of technical refinement but one that touches directly upon the principles of parliamentary sovereignty and the standards of scrutiny that this House has long upheld.
As has been evident during the deliberations of this Committee, we are all acutely aware that the pensions industry forms the very foundation of the long-term financial security of millions of people across the United Kingdom. It is therefore essential that any mandates imposed upon this sector are framed with clarity, certainty and due consideration for the practical realities—of which we have heard a lot this afternoon—faced by industry participants and savers alike. The sector quite reasonably seeks early and unambiguous direction so that businesses and individuals may plan prudently and with confidence. Ambiguity serves only to sow uncertainty and to heighten risk; it also almost always reduces the probability of the desired outcome.
Clarity alone, however, is insufficient. The process by which such mandates may be introduced or amended must itself be transparent, accountable and subject to full and proper parliamentary oversight. Under the current provisions, potentially substantial changes to the scope of mandation powers could be affected through negative secondary instruments. Such a mechanism falls short of the constitutional rigour expected in matters of this significance. These instruments, as the Committee well knows, may pass with limited visibility and without the robust debate and testing that both Houses are uniquely equipped to provide.
The amendments before us seek to remedy that shortfall by requiring that any future changes to mandation rules receive the express consent of Parliament, rather than proceeding without a vote. This proposition is not, I emphasise, a question of party-political alignment but a question of sound governance, institutional responsibility and public trust.
We must not lose sight of what is fundamentally at stake. Effective parliamentary scrutiny protects not only the interests of the industry and the Government but, most importantly, the millions of individuals, including myself, who have saved faithfully into the pension system and rely on its long-term stability. I therefore urge the Committee to lend its support to these amendments. In doing so, we would strengthen the clarity and certainty required by the pensions and lifetime savings sector; uphold the enduring principle of parliamentary consent; and ensure that the governance of our pension system reflects the transparency, diligence and integrity that the public rightly expects and deserves.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, for his introduction to his amendments in this group and all noble Lords who have spoken.
I will start with the sunset provisions. Amendment 115, from the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, would remove one element of these, but I understand that it is obviously tabled for probing purposes. There are two distinct elements to the sunset provision. The first is the element identified in the amendment: the provision in new Section 28C(3), which means that if percentage asset allocation requirements have been brought into effect by the end of 2035, they cannot be increased beyond that date. The second is what I call the “main” sunset provisions, in Clause 122(6), which automatically removes the power from the statute book altogether if it has not been used by the end of 2035. I fully recognise that there is a legitimate debate about where to set those sunset dates. Through her Amendment 116, the Baroness, Lady, Coffey, would prefer it to be shorter. The noble Baroness, Lady Penn, proposes bringing forward to 2030 the date beyond which the requirements cannot be raised. Her Amendment 130A would ensure that not only the enabling powers but any requirements in effect would expire in 2035. This is a significant power that would potentially be at the disposal of different Governments and such restrictions would seek to ensure that it is not on the statute book any longer than required.
The noble Viscount made the point about this being in a subsequent Parliament. In a sense, that is inevitable, because the Mansion House commitments are only to make those commitments by 2030 and, because this is meant as a backstop to the Mansion House Accord, the timeframe is shaped by the timescale within the Mansion House agreement and the Government’s own reform plans. We obviously do not want it on the statute book for longer than it is needed but, on the other hand, the Government do not want—nobody would—to create a situation in which a future Secretary of State felt compelled to use the power prematurely just to avoid it lapsing. It was therefore a genuine judgment about where to land it. In my view, it would not be logical to have the ability to implement a requirement, only for it to expire very shortly afterwards, as Amendment 130A might permit. The Government had to make a judgment between those competing considerations and we came down on 2035. I accept that it is matter of judgment and the Government’s may differ from that of noble Lords, but I hope that explains the competing pressures that made us land in that space.
The Committee has also focused, through a series of amendments, on the requirements for reviewing any asset allocations before and after they are implemented. The Government are acutely aware of the need to both design any regulations with great care and ensure that, if they are every introduced, they work as intended. That is why we have embedded not one but two statutory reporting requirements in Clause 40. The first is the ex ante report, which must be published under new Section 28C(12) before the power is exercised for the first time. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, her first understanding was correct. The requirement to consult is on first use. This requirement arises from a combination of new Section 28C(12) and (14), but the approach was designed so that the compulsory report and the critical first use of the power are informed by the consultation, and that is why it was put up front.
The second is the post-implementation review, which must be carried out and published under new Section 30A no later than five years after the first regulations come into force. Amendment 154 tabled by noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, would bring forward the mandatory post-implementation review of any asset allocation requirements from five years to three. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, would require an additional review within two years as well as the existing five-year review. The amendment tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, would remove the time limit altogether.
I understand why noble Lords would want a shorter deadline for the post-implementation review, especially as many have strong reservations about the power in general. Again, the five-year deadline is a matter of judgment, and I accept that we may land at different points, but our concern is to allow enough time for the arrangements to bed in, so that their effects can be properly understood. Markets can take time to adjust. It is possible, for example, that some providers might seek an exemption under the savers’ interest test. Those applications might be granted on a time-limited basis or be subject to an appeal process. That all means that the full impacts of the measure might not be visible after only a short period. On the other hand, by choosing 2035, we have deliberately kept the deadline short enough that it serves as a meaningful check.
I turn now to the content of the pre-implementation and the post-implementation reports. A number of amendments, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady McIntosh and Lady Bowles, and others, seek to specify additional matters that the Government should be obliged to review. In the main, I do not demur from the importance of any of the topics that noble Lords have identified; they cover many of the kinds of issues that any responsible Government would want to consider either before or after using a power of this kind. Indeed, it is worth recalling that the Government have already conducted a wide-ranging review of pensions investment that considers many of these topics. The review reported last year and, as noble Lords know, led to many of the measures in the Bill.
However, the Bill already places clear duties on the Secretary of State to look at the key overarching questions: how many measures are expected to affect, and then have actually affected, the financial interests of members in the relevant schemes, and how they affect economic growth in the UK? Both the ex ante and post-implementation reports must cover those core matters, and both are expressly permitted to cover “any other matters” the Secretary of State considers appropriate. That formulation is designed precisely to allow the Government to take account of the kinds of issues included in many of these amendments, but to do so in a way which can be adapted to circumstances at the time, rather than being hard-wired into primary legislation.
I stress that these reporting requirements are not the only safeguards built into the framework. The savers’ interest test provides a route by which providers can apply to the regulator for an exemption, where they consider that complying with the asset allocation requirements would cause material financial detriment to their members. If, for example, the kinds of market distortions or misalignments described in Amendment 155, from the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, were to arise in such a way as to raise material concerns about the impact on savers of meeting the targets, providers might well choose to apply for an exemption.
The issue of transparency was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, and implicitly by the noble Viscount, Lord Younger. I absolutely agree that it is good practice to be clear about the evidence and submissions that have informed policy decisions in this area. That has been the Government’s practice to date. In taking forward the pensions investment review, from which these measures have arisen, the Government consulted extensively and then published a 47 page response, including a full list of the 107 organisations that responded. If further formal consultations are carried out to inform the work required under the Bill, they will be conducted in the same spirit of openness. However, I do not think that we need detailed prescriptive publication requirements in primary legislation to achieve that.
Amendment 131 from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, would impose a further list of “prior steps” that the Secretary of State must take before using the power. One is a requirement that the Government must obtain clearance from the Competition and Markets Authority prior to exercising the powers. I will not rehearse the debate on investment trusts; we have done that already today. However, I stress again that this mandation clause is neither the work of the devil nor the work of the ABI; it is the work of the Government acting as a backstop to a voluntary Mansion House Accord, which is an industry-led initiative by 17 pension providers, aimed at securing better financial outcomes for DC savers and boosting investment in the UK. It is for the participants of the Mansion House Accord to ensure that they comply with competition law, and I have no reason to believe that they are not doing so. For our part, the Government will of course continue to comply fully with competition law in relation to any actions taken under these powers. I do not think a statutory requirement to seek specific CMA clearance is necessary or justified.
Amendment 130 from the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is a probing amendment to understand why we need to override any contrary provisions in scheme trust deeds. New Section 28C(15) simply clarifies that, where there is a conflict between the statutory asset allocation requirements and restrictive provisions in a trust deed, the statutory requirements take precedence. It is designed to give trustees legal certainty, not to dilute their general duties. As I have said, we do not expect to have to use this power but, were it to be exercised, we would want to ensure that there is certainty for trustees that these requirements may be met without inadvertently causing a conflict with a provision in a trust deed or rules.
Obviously, we do not have sight of every set of deeds or rules that schemes operate under, and it may well be that no relevant conflicting provisions exist. The provision is essentially a precaution. It means that it is not necessary for trustees or providers to spend time or money to scrutinise the interaction between the asset allocation provisions and their deeds. It also addresses the risk that a scheme might find itself at risk of closure to new auto-enrolment business due to a trust deed provision that prevents it from complying with the asset allocation requirements, which it may well want to do.
However, I want to draw a clear distinction between any specific provisions within the trust deed and the broader responsibility of trustees to select investments that operate in the best interests of members. That does not change, and trustees would continue to be subject to a duty to invest in savers’ best interests in line with the law.