Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2013 Lords Chamber

I understand the problems that Whips have when they organise business. I have been a Whip in the House of Commons, both in opposition and in government. However, I say to this Chamber that if we are to do justice to the objectives of this House—that is, in being a rigorous, revising Chamber—we really need to abandon this rush to have Report on Monday 18 November and commence it after the Christmas Recess, when we have all had time to study it. That would ensure that we get a better Bill and carry out the remit with which we were charged: to change banking in this country for good.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

I support my noble friend Lord McFall of Alcluith and the Motion that he has moved. The vast number of amendments to the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill are extremely complex. Clearly, more time is needed to consider the amendments before Report. As my noble friend has pointed out, the banking commission, which includes the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, is joined by the President of the Supreme Court, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, and the former Governor of the Bank of England in suggesting that that is the best way forward to delay the Report stage of this Bill until after the Christmas Recess.

The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, the Chief Whip, said in our exchange of views on Wednesday that the increased length of the Bill was due to the Government responding positively to the recommendations made by the banking commission. Undoubtedly that played a part, but in a Bill of such importance for the future well-being for our financial system, it is critical that noble Lords have a longer opportunity to look at the Bill as a whole to see how the many amendments to the amendments to the amendments, as my noble friend pointed out, work together to provide a clear, cohesive and coherent system. My noble friend is right to point out that good legislation is critical, and the critique of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, is salutary in this respect. Bad legislation is often complex legislation. In such situations, it is always the lawyers and accountants who win, and our country’s citizens who lose.

The Deputy Chief Whip is aware that my strong preference for business next Monday is to have debates on non-legislative reports. That seems to be a simple solution to the problem that was not, as I acknowledge, of the Government’s making, but the result of the will of the House in relation to the lobbying Bill. As I have explained to noble Lords and others inside and outside this Chamber, it is not possible to have the Second Reading of the Pensions Bill on 18 November, because the opposition spokespersons are not available. I stress that they are not, as some have suggested, on holiday. They have long-standing commitments that cannot be changed, and I respect their diary commitments.

As my noble friend said, we do have a duty to ensure the necessary transformation of our banking system. This requires longer consideration before the Report stage of the banking Bill. However, I recognise that the House is anxious not only to try to ensure that Report is put off until after Christmas, but also to ensure that all Members of your Lordships’ House who are members of the banking commission can participate at Report, including, of course, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury.

I suggest therefore that, even if it were not possible to delay the commencement of Report until after Christmas, there may be other legislative options that could be discussed in relation to business on Monday. I know that my noble friend Lord Bassam is happy to discuss other suggestions with the Deputy Chief Whip. I trust that this can be taken forward outside this Chamber. I am sure that most noble Lords, although clearly they are not in their place this evening, would be anxious to ensure that all members of the banking commission can participate in the Report stage and that proper consideration can be given by all Members of this House with an interest in this most important issue.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, on the substance of the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord McFall, as the House knows I am one of the Government’s spokespeople on the Bill, as well as being Deputy Chief Whip.

The Government tabled 155 amendments at Committee stage. By my reckoning, 116 of them were to respond to the report of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and were welcomed by members of the commission. The remainder set up the payments systems regulator, and were equally welcomed across the House. All but one of the amendments were tabled more than a week ahead of the Committee stage debate, and with an open letter of explanation addressed to the participants. I believe that this was a classic example of good practice.

Off the Floor, my noble friend Lord Deighton and I and other Treasury Ministers have had highly constructive and productive discussions with those interested in the Bill, and we continue to do so. Committee stage finished on 23 October. Usual practice would have been to have Report stage start a fortnight later on 6 November; instead, it will be on 18 November. That is a degree of measured consideration.

That is the substance of the matter. I will address two further issues. The first is that of the Chief Whip adjusting our future business in response to events. The Chief Whip had to rearrange our provisional forward business but, as she made clear last week at the Dispatch Box, she did so only because of the pressure in the House to delay Part 2 of the lobbying Bill—a position not initiated by the Government. In order to have a proper pipeline of parliamentary debate and proper progress of government business, it is necessary to have legislative business next week. The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill was waiting for Report. It was well beyond the necessary minimum interval between stages, and the Opposition Chief Whip made no alternative proposal. I think the Chief Whip not only did the best she could in the circumstances but acted entirely properly and reasonably.

I cannot but regret that the Motion we find ourselves debating was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McFall, not only minutes before House up on Friday afternoon, but without first agreeing a slot for the debate with the Chief Whip, or even consulting her. I realise that in theory every Lord has equal access to the Order Paper. Of course they do in theory, but that is not how we work in practice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I should like to respond to two or three points raised by the Deputy Chief Whip. On consultation, I note what he said, but I suggest that it is not the case that there is consultation beforehand every time a Member of this House lays the sort of Motion that my noble friend has. My noble friend Lady Hayter was told of the dates when the Committee stage of the transparency of lobbying Bill would recommence in December. She was not asked when it would be done; she was told. There is room for further consultation on many issues in this House.

In the brief exchange we had on this issue last Wednesday, I concluded my remarks by saying that my door was always open, but nobody has crossed the threshold of my office to try to find alternative legislation that could be taken on Monday. While I note what the Minister is saying—it is his view and that of the Government that we do not need to wait until the new year for the Report stage of the banking Bill—it would be to the benefit of all Members of this House if all members of the banking commission were present for the first day of Report. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will be able to take up my suggestion that he have a conversation with my noble friend Lord Bassam following this exchange, to try to find some other legislation that could be taken in this House on Monday so that the banking Bill could start a few days later.