Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
I support my noble friend Lord McFall of Alcluith and the Motion that he has moved. The vast number of amendments to the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill are extremely complex. Clearly, more time is needed to consider the amendments before Report. As my noble friend has pointed out, the banking commission, which includes the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, is joined by the President of the Supreme Court, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, and the former Governor of the Bank of England in suggesting that that is the best way forward to delay the Report stage of this Bill until after the Christmas Recess.
The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, the Chief Whip, said in our exchange of views on Wednesday that the increased length of the Bill was due to the Government responding positively to the recommendations made by the banking commission. Undoubtedly that played a part, but in a Bill of such importance for the future well-being for our financial system, it is critical that noble Lords have a longer opportunity to look at the Bill as a whole to see how the many amendments to the amendments to the amendments, as my noble friend pointed out, work together to provide a clear, cohesive and coherent system. My noble friend is right to point out that good legislation is critical, and the critique of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, is salutary in this respect. Bad legislation is often complex legislation. In such situations, it is always the lawyers and accountants who win, and our country’s citizens who lose.
The Deputy Chief Whip is aware that my strong preference for business next Monday is to have debates on non-legislative reports. That seems to be a simple solution to the problem that was not, as I acknowledge, of the Government’s making, but the result of the will of the House in relation to the lobbying Bill. As I have explained to noble Lords and others inside and outside this Chamber, it is not possible to have the Second Reading of the Pensions Bill on 18 November, because the opposition spokespersons are not available. I stress that they are not, as some have suggested, on holiday. They have long-standing commitments that cannot be changed, and I respect their diary commitments.
As my noble friend said, we do have a duty to ensure the necessary transformation of our banking system. This requires longer consideration before the Report stage of the banking Bill. However, I recognise that the House is anxious not only to try to ensure that Report is put off until after Christmas, but also to ensure that all Members of your Lordships’ House who are members of the banking commission can participate at Report, including, of course, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury.
I suggest therefore that, even if it were not possible to delay the commencement of Report until after Christmas, there may be other legislative options that could be discussed in relation to business on Monday. I know that my noble friend Lord Bassam is happy to discuss other suggestions with the Deputy Chief Whip. I trust that this can be taken forward outside this Chamber. I am sure that most noble Lords, although clearly they are not in their place this evening, would be anxious to ensure that all members of the banking commission can participate in the Report stage and that proper consideration can be given by all Members of this House with an interest in this most important issue.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, on the substance of the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord McFall, as the House knows I am one of the Government’s spokespeople on the Bill, as well as being Deputy Chief Whip.
The Government tabled 155 amendments at Committee stage. By my reckoning, 116 of them were to respond to the report of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and were welcomed by members of the commission. The remainder set up the payments systems regulator, and were equally welcomed across the House. All but one of the amendments were tabled more than a week ahead of the Committee stage debate, and with an open letter of explanation addressed to the participants. I believe that this was a classic example of good practice.
Off the Floor, my noble friend Lord Deighton and I and other Treasury Ministers have had highly constructive and productive discussions with those interested in the Bill, and we continue to do so. Committee stage finished on 23 October. Usual practice would have been to have Report stage start a fortnight later on 6 November; instead, it will be on 18 November. That is a degree of measured consideration.
That is the substance of the matter. I will address two further issues. The first is that of the Chief Whip adjusting our future business in response to events. The Chief Whip had to rearrange our provisional forward business but, as she made clear last week at the Dispatch Box, she did so only because of the pressure in the House to delay Part 2 of the lobbying Bill—a position not initiated by the Government. In order to have a proper pipeline of parliamentary debate and proper progress of government business, it is necessary to have legislative business next week. The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill was waiting for Report. It was well beyond the necessary minimum interval between stages, and the Opposition Chief Whip made no alternative proposal. I think the Chief Whip not only did the best she could in the circumstances but acted entirely properly and reasonably.
I cannot but regret that the Motion we find ourselves debating was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McFall, not only minutes before House up on Friday afternoon, but without first agreeing a slot for the debate with the Chief Whip, or even consulting her. I realise that in theory every Lord has equal access to the Order Paper. Of course they do in theory, but that is not how we work in practice.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Let me correct the Deputy Chief Whip. As a member of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, I was left in the dark regarding the Chief Whip’s negotiations with the usual channels. I was informed on Friday of the situation. I got on to the Table Office at about 1.30 pm and one of the first things I said was, “Contact the Government Whips so that they know this is going on on Monday”. I would have not needed to have done that if there had been proper channels of procedure between the Whips’ department and our department, and also the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards under the chairmanship of Andrew Tyrie, who has expressed deep regret at this situation. This Bill is different from all other Bills. The Government set up the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. This is not government legislation; this is legislation that the Government are implementing as a result of a year-long inquiry that they set up. It is unique and different from all other aspects.
Lord Newby
My Lords, my understanding—and I have not been a Whip as long as a number of noble Lords in their places at the moment—is that if a noble Lord wishes to bring a Motion of this sort, the normal practice is to discuss it with the usual channels before laying it. That did not happen in this case, and I greatly regret it. It is for the good order of the House that that is how we do our business. That is not the substance of our debate this evening, although we have to look to at how we do our procedure.
There are a number of outstanding issues between the Government and the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. It is proposed that the relevant Treasury Ministers should meet representatives of the commission within the next 24 hours. That offer has been made. Having looked at the outstanding issues, I believe that it will be possible to make progress on most of them, but not necessarily on every last one. That can be done within the next 48 hours. The number of issues between the Government and the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards is relatively small because we have dealt with so many of them already. I strongly urge members of the commission to go ahead with that process in the confident expectation that we will be able to reach an agreement on many of the outstanding issues in the very near future.
Lord Newby
As my noble friend the Chief Whip said last week, she was willing to hear alternative proposals from the Opposition Chief Whip about legislation for next Monday. As far as I understand, no proposals came forth. If the Opposition Chief Whip has some new proposals that he wants to make, obviously my noble friend’s door is always open. However, it is now very late and potentially unfair to people whose legislation might be coming next week to suggest changing the business for next Monday now.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bassam of Brighton) (Lab)
Would the noble Lord be prepared to consider some changes at this late stage, because I am sure we could have some further discussion on this?
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards has been very open with the Government in everything we have done, and courteous in all our exchanges with them. In light of the heavyweight presence on that commission, in light of the reception it has received in the country and in the knowledge that if anything will change cultural standards in the UK’s financial services, it will be the recommendations of this commission, I should like the Government to reflect on the situation. The Minister should take it back to the Chief Whip and come back and say, “This commission has the best interests of Parliament and the country at heart. It wants time to look at it in a measured way and it is as simple a request as that”. It would be done courteously, and if it needs me to go to the Chief Whip and supplicate, I will be quite happy.