Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts

Monday 24th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I, too, support the noble Lord, Lord Dear, on the principle of the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, is absolutely right that in this amendment we can make up for past omissions—things that should have happened but have not. I am conscious that, at this moment, the Mental Capacity Act is subject to post-legislative scrutiny, which has been very successful. We have the principle already and I am sure that we have done it with other Acts in the past. The National Health Service, about which I know a bit, is simply an organ of the state, of Parliament, and it is endlessly under scrutiny. At the moment, the Care Quality Commission is going through the wringer, as we know, because people are so concerned that the regulator is not doing the job that people hoped it would.

Having listened to what the noble Lord, Lord Dear, had to say about the different cases, I find it interesting that throughout this Committee stage noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Lester, in particular—have assured us that there is no problem with this Bill because we have safeguards in both European and national legislation. Yet we hear of these cases all the time and this is before the Bill has been enacted. At least one of the safeguards that we could have is the principle laid down by the noble Lord, Lord Dear, that we should have some post-legislative scrutiny.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, in my view this amendment is absolutely unnecessary in the terms put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Dear. I think that the process that the noble Lord suggests is flawed and unnecessary. However, I am a great fan of post-legislative scrutiny and I know that the committee looking into the Mental Capacity Act is doing a splendid job. I think that every Act should be subject to pre-legislative and post-legislative scrutiny as a matter of course, so I would not be against post-legislative scrutiny, but I am utterly against the sort of judicial process that the noble Lord speaks of.

I say to my noble friend Lord Anderson that I find it slightly offensive that he talks of this Bill as a sort of laboratory experiment. I recognise that it brings about a profound change in our society—from my perspective, a very welcome change—but it is certainly not a laboratory experiment. I wish to put that on record.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dear, that his suggestion would be completely impractical. The first same-sex marriages will not take place until about a year after the Act has passed. A review in two years’ time would be completely mad. I have discussed this with the Minister and I think that there will be some standard post-implementation evaluation of the Bill, which will be very welcome, but that will rightly not take place for some time. I ask the noble Lord whether he looked at his own marriage one or two years after he entered wedded bliss. I suspect not. In same-sex marriages we tend to think about the seven-year itch, which is a long time after the two years that the noble Lord is talking about.

The thing that would interest me in 10 years’ time would be to go back to noble Lords who are currently against or have deep concerns about the Bill to see whether their views of same-sex marriage have changed. I would wager that the same acceptance that we now have on all Benches for civil partnerships—

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The difference is that, whatever reasonable time one chooses, this is not about looking at the nature of marriage or the changes brought about; it is about looking at the protections that have been promised and whether or not they are effective. That is the real purpose of a review, whether it be a post-legislative review or something else, at the appropriate time.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I understand what my noble friend is saying and, as I say, in terms of post-legislative scrutiny I think that that is not a bad thing to look at. However, I point out that views of civil partnerships over the past nine years have changed profoundly and I think that we will find that views of same-sex marriage will change also. Many of the fears that people expressed at the time of the Civil Partnership Bill were very much the same as the concerns being expressed about the same-sex marriage Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Dear, cited statistics about Spain and the Netherlands. He has his set of statistics and we have ours. I do not have my own statistics to hand. It would be extremely helpful if the Minister could, in due course, write with our interpretation of those statistics so that they, too, are on record.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon]

Does the noble Baroness think that the use of words such as “mad” or personalising issues by saying “look at your own marriage” really help this debate?

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I was being slightly flippant when I asked the noble Lord to look at his own marriage. I should perhaps have talked of my marriage. If I had looked at my own marriage after one year, it would have been far too soon. In saying “mad”, I was not referring to people or meaning to personalise. I was not accusing the noble Lord of being mad but expressing a view about his suggestion that there should be a judicial process to look at the Bill in two years’ time, which is not sensible. Perhaps I should be more measured in my language. I apologise to the noble Lord.

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[Lord Dear]

My Lords, I am particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, for deciding that I am sane and not mad.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

On this occasion.

[Lord Dear]

I have to say that I remain a little confused about this, but at a much higher level. Everyone on all sides of the House seems to say that the principle is very good. That started with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and shortly after that by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. If the principle is right, perhaps we need not worry too much about the detail. I for one would not push the detail at all—whether it is one year or five years, or indeed whether it is a Lord Justice of Appeal or not.

I thought that those who spoke in support of the amendment in specific terms—the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Stoddart of Swindon, and the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege—in effect all said the same thing, which is that there has been no real pre-legislative scrutiny at all. We know that the Bill came into the House of Commons at a rate of knots. For that reason alone, it is well worth while looking at the workings of the Bill once it becomes an Act of Parliament and goes through into society.

The point has been made several times on both side of the House. The Bill is so complicated and so fundamental to society—“building block” was mentioned—and there is so much concern about it outside that the argument can be carried quite easily that we need to look at its workings at some stage in the future. I do not want to get into the detail; this is something of a probing amendment in any case and I am more than happy to withdraw it at this stage.

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If this shift in Strasbourg jurisprudence takes place, all the ministerial assurances in the world will in fact be worthless. We should take a long, hard look at what else could realistically be done to safeguard the long-term position of the churches. It matters a great deal to these people. As the House knows, I am not religious, but I think that we should do everything that we can to protect the civil liberties of religious people and, indeed, of others. In the face of the evidence of risk, ministerial assurances are really not enough. I look forward to hearing whether the Government have really considered the unpredictability of the European court and what that could mean for the future, and what we can do about it. I beg to move.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

Briefly, my Lords, the noble Lord speaks of the need to protect religious freedom. I am sure that everybody in this Chamber absolutely agrees with and espouses that. However, knowing the noble Lord’s view of the European Convention on Human Rights and his view of the Bill, it seems that he may be a little torn, if I may put it like that. In a way, he is using the Bill as a vehicle to withdraw the UK’s signature to the convention. He does not like the Bill, as has become apparent—

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

As a matter of fact, I am not opposed to the European Convention and the European Court of Human Rights. After all, I am old enough to have been around when the convention was drafted and signed by this country. I supported it then and, indeed, as long as the court does its job and does not try to increase its influence and powers, I remain in favour of it.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I beg the noble Lord’s pardon. My entire hypothesis seems to be wrong, so I will merely say that I do not believe that this amendment should be accepted because, in any event, we should not withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights. However, it is an entirely unlikely happening because the Bill as it stands does not offend against any element of human rights, freedom of speech or freedom of religion.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amendment, which gives us a further opportunity to set out yet again how we believe that the European Convention on Human Rights supports rather than threatens the religious protections in the Bill. The noble Lord indicated in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that he is not opposed in principle to the European Convention on Human Rights, but I know that he has expressed some concerns about the development of the jurisprudence of the court. I am not sure whether he took part in the debate last Thursday when the House had an opportunity, during a debate introduced by my noble friend Lord Lester, to consider these human rights issues.

The Government have made it clear why we do not believe that there would be a reduction in the protection available to religious organisations and individuals as a result of the Bill. I am happy to repeat those assurances. Indeed, I have sought to do so in the previous debate in replying to the noble Lord, Lord Singh of Wimbledon. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has said it again. There is unanimity in this House on the wish to secure the protection of religious organisations and individuals.

Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights guarantees the right to freedom of religion. Any attempt to compel religious organisations to solemnise marriages that they consider to be doctrinally impermissible would quite clearly be an interference with their right—and indeed the right of their members to religious freedom. I believe that the religious freedoms contained in this Bill reinforce that protection.

The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, suggests that if Strasbourg finds that there is a right to same-sex marriage, religious organisations would be forced to conduct such ceremonies. We do not believe that to be the case. Under this Bill, we will be providing same-sex civil marriage ceremonies, but the protection of Article 9 would mean that a couple could not force a religious organisation to marry them according to its right purely because they want a religious ceremony.

It is also worth noting that after many years since the introduction of civil unions for same-sex couples in a number of countries that are members of the Council of Europe, including the United Kingdom, there has been no decision of the Strasbourg court holding that there is right to a civil union, in other words to any legal relationship at all for same-sex couples.

Clause 2 of this Bill provides clear protection for individuals and religious organisations who do not wish to conduct or participate in a religious marriage ceremony on the grounds that it is the marriage of a same-sex couple. The case law of the European Court of Human Rights is equally clear that the question of whether, and if so how, to allow same-sex marriage must be left to individual states to decide for themselves. I simply believe that it is inconceivable that the court would require a religious organisation to conduct same-sex marriages in breach of its own doctrines. We believe the position is clear—and indeed has been strongly supported by a number of our most respected legal minds. In his written submission to the Public Bill Committee in the other place, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said:

“For the European Court of Human Rights to compel a religious body or its adherents to conduct a religious marriage of a same sex couple would require a legal miracle much greater than the parting of the Red Sea for the Children of Israel to cross from Egypt. The Court unanimously decided in Schalk and Kopf v Austriain 2010”—

the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, also referred to this case—

“that there is no right to same sex marriage under the European Convention on Human Rights. It is in the realms of legal fantasy to suggest that the Court would impose an obligation on a religious body to conduct such a ceremony, especially when civil marriage will be available in this country for a same sex couple and when Article 9 of the Convention protects religious beliefs and practices”.

Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, followed that up and confirmed his position in the oral evidence which he gave to that committee.

I briefly note the practical effects of the amendment. It would be extraordinary for a Secretary of State to be required, as this amendment would envisage, to act unilaterally to withdraw the United Kingdom from the convention without further reference to Parliament—although I accept that the noble Lord said it was a probing amendment. Furthermore, to make such a decision contingent upon the outcome of a court case dealing with unknown and unspecified issues would be equally extraordinary, particularly if the successful challenge related to a technical matter which could be readily remedied by legislation passed in Parliament.

Before I conclude, I refer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, in a previous amendment, when he read a newspaper article which suggested that there had been some secret conference involving my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, Theresa May, my honourable friend Lynne Featherstone and the Council of Europe. I understand that this secret conference was an event attended by 300 people, invited by the Government of the United Kingdom, when the United Kingdom held the presidency of the Council of Ministers. Nicolas Bratza, who was then president of the European Court of Human Rights, spoke for five minutes. I am informed that the text of his speech is on the court’s website. He made it clear that the court’s case law had left the issue of gay marriage to be decided by national authorities.

Not just in this debate but in a number of debates during Committee we have sought to give reassurances that the protections for individuals and religious organisations are very real. I would hope that having had the opportunity to have this debate, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.